Driving distance aside, what is the single biggest difference between tour players and scratch/good golfers?

[golfer55082]

I think it is iron accuracy in approach shots.  

 

Any different opinions or insights?  🙂   Thanks. 

[Pepperturbo]

Let's start with the level of focused practice.  Iron accuracy is further down the list. 

[milesgiles]

can only speak for the ex tour pro I play regularly with..

 

distance control is far better. Totally confident  in how he will hit it, time after time will be pin high from essentially any distance

 

very aggressive around the greens, hits the ball hard, lots of spin

 

rarely makes a bad putting stroke

 

plus the mental side of course

 

 

although I dont really agree with the premise of the question, plenty of good amateurs hit it miles, particularly the young one, I dont see that as a significant difference 

[glk]

Everything.    Saw an analysis where only scratch scores that would have counted were compared to tour averages - tour was 5.45 strokes better - so I'd say 10 strokes better cause you are throwing out 10/20 scores - and he didn't really account for tour players on harder courses with the pressure to earn a living.     

 

Just a couple of examples, Kisner played his own ball against a podcast 4's scramble ball and almost beat them on the 18th hole - they holed out a long putt to win by one.    Fleetwood played some british golf teacher (can't recall which one) and spotted him 10 strokes and they tied.     I recall an old golf digest (or golf magazine article) comparing Prime Tiger to tour pros and it wasn't even close - so there is an even big gap between the top pros and the rest of the pack.           

[gentles]

Statistically it’s iron shots between 100-200 yards

[Krt22]

. From pro to minitour, form minitour to scratch, from scratch to 5hcp, the biggest differentiator is ball striking. 

[Krt22]

29 minutes ago, glk said:

Everything.    Saw an analysis where only scratch scores that would have counted were compared to tour averages - tour was 5.45 strokes better - so I'd say 10 strokes better cause you are throwing out 10/20 scores - and he didn't really account for tour players on harder courses with the pressure to earn a living.     

 

Just a couple of examples, Kisner played his own ball against a podcast 4's scramble ball and almost beat them on the 18th hole - they holed out a long putt to win by one.    Fleetwood played some british golf teacher (can't recall which one) and spotted him 10 strokes and they tied.     I recall an old golf digest (or golf magazine article) comparing Prime Tiger to tour pros and it wasn't even close - so there is an even big gap between the top pros and the rest of the pack.           

Prime tiger was around a +10 handicap IIRC. Given most pros are in the +6-7 range, that is a huge gap over a 4 day tournament. 

[Cliffy2020]

Bank accounts.

[amace04]

Everything.  Literally everything.

 

The skill difference between a tour pro and scratch player is bigger than the difference from a scratch player to a 30 cap.

[third-times-a-charm]

Ball striking and putting. Simple as that. 9 times out of 10 the ball does what a tour pro wants.

 

For a non-tour scratch golfer even that is 7-8/10 times. Pair that with just general course management and you see why they get to +4 and +6.

[glk]

23 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Prime tiger was around a +10 handicap IIRC. Given most pros are in the +6-7 range, that is a huge gap over a 4 day tournament. 

Mark broadie pinned tweet

 

[Ty_Webb]

Approach play is the biggest after driving. Lou Stagner posted something on Twitter along the lines of a PGA tour player averages 3.0 strokes to finish from about 167 yards. A scratch amateur averages 3.0 strokes from 92 yards. So they're spotting you 70 yards and still beating you.

[golfarb1]

Getting up and down and consistency of iron shots. 
A number are just magicians around the greens . Their chipping and short wedge shots are unworldly . 
And they almost never miss their iron shots by much . 

[Krt22]

15 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Getting up and down and consistency of iron shots. 
A number are just magicians around the greens . Their chipping and short wedge shots are unworldly . 
And they almost never miss their iron shots by much . 

Pretty much all false. Try again

[ezpz]

obviously its everything but If I had to rank it.

mental game,

Ballstriking,

course management,

shortgame,

putting

[ShupeSC]

Biggest difference is the ability to play a new course every week. A lot of +4/+5 guys can tear their home course or near by courses up every day, but being able to travel, sleep in a different bed every week, keep workout routine up and play good is hard to do… 

[NJBigFish22]

I would say consistency.  They hit the center of the club face more consistently than even good amateur players.  This leads to better distance control and accuracy.

[DLiver]

50 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

They hit the center of the club face more consistently than even good amateur players.  This leads to better distance control and accuracy.

Absolutely this.

[wagolfer7]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

Pretty much all false. Try again

 

I'm just curious, but you say this because of the data right?  

 

All the best golfers I've played with that tried to make it on a tour all pretty much said "putting" or "100 yards and in" or both.  I've never heard ball striking or iron play.  Not saying that's not true, just the 8-10 best golfers I ran into in my life all said the above.    

 

And I notice that as well when playing with golfers better than me.  They are better than me in every facet of the game.  But 100 yards and in, it seems like the biggest gap.  I hit a few less greens in reg than they do, but they score 6-7+ better than me.  And it's not their ball striking I'm envious of, it's always their 100 yard and in shots for the most part.  They are more consistent on tougher up and downs and the amount of shots they have in their bag to get it close at that length is insane.    

 

But maybe that's just a mirage.  And maybe they think "putting" but the real data would show it's elsewhere.  

 

I just have a hard time comparing PGA data to amateurs.  The golf courses they play at are a different beast.  I'm not shooting my handicap at a PGA event setup golf course.  And getting up and down is going to be harder on those courses.        

 

 

[golfarb1]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

Pretty much all false. Try again

No offense , but if you do not think that pros have much better up and down games around the greens and miss  their iron shots by  consistently less than a scratch handicap or low handicaps , you are smoking some strong weed.

Of course the farther from the green the more anyone will deviate from the target .Nobody is IRON BRYON

I assume that you are a single digit handicap. To even mention your up and down game and your iron striking skills and that of the pros in the same sentence is the golf equivalent of blasphemy. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by golfarb1

[Krt22]

4 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I'm just curious, but you say this because of the data right?  

 

All the best golfers I've played with that tried to make it on a tour all pretty much said "putting" or "100 yards and in" or both.  I've never heard ball striking or iron play.  Not saying that's not true, just the 8-10 best golfers I ran into in my life all said the above.    

 

And I notice that as well when playing with golfers better than me.  They are better than me in every facet of the game.  But 100 yards and in, it seems like the biggest gap.  I hit a few less greens in reg than they do, but they score 6-7+ better than me.  And it's not their ball striking I'm envious of, it's always their 100 yard and in shots for the most part.  They are more consistent on tougher up and downs and the amount of shots they have in their bag to get it close at that length is insane.    

 

But maybe that's just a mirage.  And maybe they think "putting" but the real data would show it's elsewhere.  

 

I just have a hard time comparing PGA data to amateurs.  The golf courses they play at are a different beast.  I'm not shooting my handicap at a PGA event setup golf course.  And getting up and down is going to be harder on those courses.        

 

 

Yes, SG data. This notion they get up and down from everywhere is false (tour avg is 50% from the sand, 60% total for scrambling). The notion they make every putt is false (putting is typically where scratch and pros are statistically the closest). The notion they rarely miss a green is false (tour avg is 11-12 GIRs). 

 

I play with a variety of + handicap guys pretty frequently, including D1 or former D1 players, occasionally some guys with status. The most glaring difference to me is not how far they hit it (which they do), but how far they consistently hit it. Their avg drive and max drive are not far apart and they typically are never in any real trouble off the tee. And on approach shots, particularly from 200+ yards out. A lot of players 5 or better can stick a wedge to a few feet, but very few can hit the green from 200+ out.  Basically every par 5 they are either on the green or at the very least greenside. The best wedge player in the world is still going to lose strokes to someone with just a decent short game who is within 30 yards of the hole. For some reason the stuffed wedge is more memorable than the ho-hum 2 putt birdie.

 

 Are they better at everything else as well? Absolutely, but the question was is the single biggest difference besides driving, and all of data points to one thing. 

[phizzy30]

I have client/buddy of mine that plays on the Mackenzie Tour and another buddy who's a +4 cap who played on the UCR team and mini tours before getting his am status reinstated.  Both are 180 and 170 ball speed, can putt lights out and get up and down on the regular.  What makes them so good is that their ball striking and distance control are second to none.  They can self assess their swings and get back on track even when they are playing poorly.  What separates them from the scratch golfer is the ability to pull off the shots and make the putts when it really matters. 

[Krt22]

29 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

No offense , but if you do not think that pros have much better up and down games around the greens and miss  their iron shots by  consistently less than a scratch handicap or low handicaps , you are smoking some strong weed.

Of course the farther from the green the more anyone will deviate from the target .Nobody is IRON BRYON

I assume that you are a single digit handicap. To even mention your up and down game and your iron striking skills and that of the pros in the same sentence is the golf equivalent of blasphemy. 

The question in the OP was "what is the single biggest difference between tour players and scratch". Tour players are obviously better at everything, but short game and putting is not where the gap is the largest (that is actually where the gap is the smallest). The data is pretty clear and has been reviewed countless times by many, the only one's who still deny the data are those who have yet to digest it themselves and still rely on old anecdotes. We do have some dank weed here, but dank weed does not invalidate data.

[golfarb1]

Pros are in a completely different world than D1 players . Even among D1 players there is a large difference in skills between the higher echelon players and others .

 

You need to compare apples to apples not apples to bananas . The numbers that you cite are derived from numbers on the PGA Tour. The PGA tour plays on some of the hardest courses in the country with consistently fast conditions and some very difficult pin positions . Add to that is the intangible huge pressure .
Your average scratch or low handicap never comes close to playing under the same conditions that the pros face. If they did their numbers would be considerably worse. Just an example. I played Winged Foot a number of times. During 2020 US Open I could not believe the pin positions on some of holes . 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Pretty much all false. Try again

I get tired of having to argue that short game, while very important, is not the separator.  Everyone tells me I’m wrong and stupid, so I’m done even trying. 
 

One guy lit me up and told me a failed player like myself doesn’t know anything because he and his future TV playing 13 year old are on the trenches 6 days a week.

 

Short game is to save you when you stink.

 

How close you hit the ball to the hole is the great equalizer and hitting it farther makes that easier.  It’s what separates every skill level.

The tired cliches don’t just litter swing discussions. 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[OnTheBag]

After 30+ years of carrying their bags and a low single capper myself, the biggest difference is consistency and distance control.  I do not think raw distance has much to do with it.  That was proven during the most recent LPGA event.  That celebrity field was full of scratch to +3 guys and the field still smoked them by a significant margin.  

 

Another differentiator is the recovery from a miss.  Status players practice recovery till their hands bleed.  Everyone hits an errant shot, but what makes or breaks a round is the following shot.  Do you allow that miss to turn into a double, or do you salvage par with a well planned recovery shot?

 

I somewhat agree that the difference between the top pros and scratch is about the same as scratch to a 20 hcp, but I won't go as far as 30.  

[CasualLie]

What goes hand in hand with overall superior consistency is a tour player is far superior in course management / strategy and mental strength.  Generally speaking, the scratch player is not playing under a microscope and for a living; there are not big dollars on the line, fame, cameras, commentators, and internet critics.  Scratch players have some strategy, but they don't play every day and when they show up to a course for the first time they just wing it hole by hole, shot by shot.  A tour player has a strategy in mind and a game plan for the entire 18 holes before they even step up to the first tee.

 

Typical tour player when not in a tournament -  practice four hours, play a few holes, maybe 9, practice some more, mix in gym, optimum diet, and all kinds of other things from the tool chest - meditation, mental coaching, etc...

 

Typical scratch player, practice here and there, looking forward to the next round because it beats working, gets excited for the next Driver launch.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

After 30+ years of carrying their bags and a low single capper myself, the biggest difference is consistency and distance control.  I do not think raw distance has much to do with it.  That was proven during the most recent LPGA event.  That celebrity field was full of scratch to +3 guys and the field still smoked them by a significant margin.  

 

Another differentiator is the recovery from a miss.  Status players practice recovery till their hands bleed.  Everyone hits an errant shot, but what makes or breaks a round is the following shot.  Do you allow that miss to turn into a double, or do you salvage par with a well planned recovery shot?

 

I somewhat agree that the difference between the top pros and scratch is about the same as scratch to a 20 hcp, but I won't go as far as 30.  

Scott Fawcett is making a living teaching touring pros how best to avoid bogey and the dreaded double. It's crazy how many people still argue with him on the internet when pros and elite ams are paying him for his services. 

[golfarb1]

36 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I get tired of having to argue that short game, while very important, is not the separator.  Everyone tells me I’m wrong and stupid, so I’m done even trying. 
 

One guy lit me up and told me a failed player like myself doesn’t know anything because he and his future TV playing 13 year old are on the trenches 6 days a week.

 

Short game is to save you when you stink.

 

How close you hit the ball to the hole is the great equalizer and hitting it farther makes that easier.  It’s what separates every skill level.

The tired cliches don’t just litter swing discussions. 

 

A question 

What deficiencies in your game preventing you from succeeding on the tour ?

If you had an up and down game that was equivalent to the top 1/4 of pros , would that have made the difference ? 

Edited January 29, 2022 by golfarb1

[OnTheBag]

7 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Scott Fawcett is making a living teaching touring pros how best to avoid bogey and the dreaded double. It's crazy how many people still argue with him on the internet when pros and elite ams are paying him for his services. 

I've never looped for a player that used his DECADE system, but the thought process of all my players was similar, without the analytics.  Practice rounds are all about planning for the miss and the recovery, while trying to predict likely pin positions.