LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Once they’re not under contract with LIV, there’s nothing that the PGA Tour can do, or would want to do, to restrict those guys trying to earn their way back on Tour.  If tomorrow Rahm, Smith, Koepka, Deschambeau, Dj, etc. decided to walk away from their LIV contracts, the PGA Tour would take them back with open arms, and they’d have the support of most of the top guys.  They wouldn’t have rights to equity until they earned it just like any new player.  My guess is none of them would do that until their contracts are up, both for monetary reasons and to avoid the inevitable tortious interference lawsuit.  But I continue to believe that, if nothing changes in terms of a merger, a number of those guys will be ditching LIV when their contracts are up.

 

There's a lot they can do. For some of those players (who didn't resign their memberships), they are in blatant violation of Tour rules and subject to sanctions/punishments. For those who resigned their memberships, they're not PGA Tour members and may have no standing on Tour* right now. So there is a LOT they can do to restrict those guys. 

 

However I agree with your second part, where there's not a huge amount they would want to do. Those players leaving LIV would be a de facto admission that LIV isn't a desirable place to play, and it would basically be in the Tour's interest to find a way to get them back as a way to stomp on LIV's grave. 

 

The biggest thing is that they need to find a way to do it that doesn't piss off the Tour players who didn't leave. Which makes me think there will be a lot of stipulations in there. Perhaps getting them to agree to play a certain number of 2nd-tier tournaments while not allowing them any access to Signature Events for a year via any method (AON list, sponsor exemptions) unless they win on Tour or something like that. 

I think even the PGAT rank and file know that if LIV folds, they're going to find a way to allow them back. They just don't want the Tour to roll out the red carpet as that is a slap in the face to those who didn't leave. So there will be restrictions and penalties, nothing too egregious, but something that acknowledges the fact that the players have to jump through some hoops to be allowed back and it's not merely given freely. 

 

Spoiler

 * Phil I think has lifetime exemptions due to # of wins and years played, and DJ I recall had the win total but was in the last year of number of years to have the lifetime exemption--but I believe the Tour has since removed the duration requirement so under the new system he has enough wins.

 

[Archimedes65]

4 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

There's a lot they can do. For some of those players (who didn't resign their memberships), they are in blatant violation of Tour rules and subject to sanctions/punishments. For those who resigned their memberships, they're not PGA Tour members and may have no standing on Tour* right now. So there is a LOT they can do to restrict those guys. 

 

However I agree with your second part, where there's not a huge amount they would want to do. Those players leaving LIV would be a de facto admission that LIV isn't a desirable place to play, and it would basically be in the Tour's interest to find a way to get them back as a way to stomp on LIV's grave. 

 

The biggest thing is that they need to find a way to do it that doesn't piss off the Tour players who didn't leave. Which makes me think there will be a lot of stipulations in there. Perhaps getting them to agree to play a certain number of 2nd-tier tournaments while not allowing them any access to Signature Events for a year via any method (AON list, sponsor exemptions) unless they win on Tour or something like that. 

I think even the PGAT rank and file know that if LIV folds, they're going to find a way to allow them back. They just don't want the Tour to roll out the red carpet as that is a slap in the face to those who didn't leave. So there will be restrictions and penalties, nothing too egregious, but something that acknowledges the fact that the players have to jump through some hoops to be allowed back and it's not merely given freely. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 * Phil I think has lifetime exemptions due to # of wins and years played, and DJ I recall had the win total but was in the last year of number of years to have the lifetime exemption--but I believe the Tour has since removed the duration requirement so under the new system he has enough wins.

 

 

The suspensions are governed by Tour rules, so that would be based on the number of tournaments they played in, but it can’t be indefinite.

 

And I think you’re overstating the negative reaction among the players.  As long as the returning players don’t get equity immediately, I think the top PGA players would be overwhelmingly in support of it, not just because it gets the best players playing together, but because it strengthens the PGA Tour and would kill LIV.  If I’m say Scotty Scheffler or any of the top 10 players, for example, firstly, I’ve just made waaayyy more money over the past year with the larger purses than I would have before LIV.  Secondly, if those guys come back, the Tour is solidified and my equity is now worth more.  Thirdly, I get to rub my thumb in Greg Norman’s eye and watch LIV die.  I think Rory, Xander, Scotty, etc. would be all over that.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

The suspensions are governed by Tour rules, so that would be based on the number of tournaments they played in, but it can’t be indefinite.

 

And I think you’re overstating the negative reaction among the players.  As long as the returning players don’t get equity immediately, I think the top PGA players would be overwhelmingly in support of it, not just because it gets the best players playing together, but because it strengthens the PGA Tour and would kill LIV.  If I’m say Scotty Scheffler or any of the top 10 players, for example, firstly, I’ve just made waaayyy more money over the past year with the larger purses than I would have before LIV.  Secondly, if those guys come back, the Tour is solidified and my equity is now worth more.  Thirdly, I get to rub my thumb in Greg Norman’s eye and watch LIV die.  I think Rory, Xander, Scotty, etc. would be all over that.

 

I just don't see it.  Every player who went to Liv abandoned the tour, the fans, and the players.  Nobody is going to be happy to see them back in play making money via winnings and endorsements when the current tour players are the ones who have kept the tour going by not going to Liv. 

 

If more players would of went to Liv it could of killed the PGA Tour (Liv still wouldn't work but that's another show), the guys who left knew that could be the result but they didn't care about the fans or the players, they only cared about themselves.  Without the rest of the tour and fans they wouldn't be making large sums of money playing golf.  I hope that makes sense.

[NormanFan]

7 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

The WGC model was set up to fail. For the longest time 3 events were in the US and the tv window for the China event was awful. The courses they played on were crappy as well

 

Yes, they were in the U.S. because the players were largely refusing to go elsewhere.  Remember in 2001 when they tried to do the match play in Australia and about 60% of the field decided not to show up?

[drbonesvt]

LIV in Houston this week , couple buddies going , I’m sorry I just can’t , 54 holes of contrived crap.  Rahm ,  Reed , fat Perez , 3 I dislike the most .  Hard no with adder I’d rather eat broken glass.  

[Golferpaul]

19 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Zero surprise.  Nobody wants to play team golf, outside of a few special events, usually associated with country.  These guys all grew up playing tournament golf as individuals.  You can’t throw them into teams and magically think they’re going to get along, much less build camaraderie.  It’s NOT A TEAM sport.

Have you forgotten that they play team golf in high school and college?  They played team golf for years before joining the PGAT.

[Shilgy]

On 6/4/2024 at 8:37 AM, idrive said:

 

Not true. they are monitoring the situation. They never said no "framework deal" or we're done. They are disappointed like many but have not said they will pull their sponsorship if there is no merger.

 

Like the other sponsors that have left there are others standing by to take their place.

Exactly…all of the events h seem to have sponsor changes.  Phoenix had an investment bank prior to Waste Management…..the Memorial changed from Nationwide to Workday.

 

Much ado about nothing.

[drbonesvt]

1 hour ago, drbonesvt said:

LIV in Houston this week , couple buddies going , I’m sorry I just can’t , 54 holes of contrived crap.  Rahm ,  Reed , fat Perez , 3 I dislike the most .  Hard no with adder I’d rather eat broken glass.  

It’s like the PGAT spun off bad assets 

[Shilgy]

19 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Once they’re not under contract with LIV, there’s nothing that the PGA Tour can do, or would want to do, to restrict those guys trying to earn their way back on Tour.  If tomorrow Rahm, Smith, Koepka, Deschambeau, Dj, etc. decided to walk away from their LIV contracts, the PGA Tour would take them back with open arms, and they’d have the support of most of the top guys.  They wouldn’t have rights to equity until they earned it just like any new player.  My guess is none of them would do that until their contracts are up, both for monetary reasons and to avoid the inevitable tortious interference lawsuit.  But I continue to believe that, if nothing changes in terms of a merger, a number of those guys will be ditching LIV when their contracts are up.

As of right now my understanding is they must wait a minimum of one year from the last LIV event played.  Even players that had no PGA Tour standing are bound by that.

 

Would they enforce that provision if LIV folded?  We can only hope to find out.🤔

[Holy Moses]

21 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I look for Rory to announce that he's taking his talents to the Saudi League for 1/2 billion dollars. When asked why, he'll claim he did it to bring the two sides together.,,

 

Worked for Rahm..... 🤣

 

Seriously though.... If Rory doesn't win a major this year, I think that he'll do something out of frustration in 2025.  Notwithstanding that TGL thingy.

He’s not going to LIV

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

Have you forgotten that they play team golf in high school and college?  They played team golf for years before joining the PGAT.

 

They played team golf for a couple of years in college because they had no choice, it’s the format.  And the individual honors were still more important than the team aspect, save for the one team that actually wins the national championship.  If you asked PGA Tour pros whether they wanted team golf outside of the Ryder and President’s Cups, the overwhelming response would be no.

[CDM]

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/06/08/jay-monahan-pga-tour-commissioner-rank-and-file-signature-events/

 

Fully know that there will always be someone who is not happy regardless how things works out in business.   

 

This though is the feeling of have and have nots is really starting to take hold.

 

I do agree the Players event was great this year, so I see the point on the limited field comment. Yet as we all know the top players (all ready in the SIGs) want the limited fields as they make way more money and do it vs less competition.... Oddly sounds like another start of tour 🤣

 

As much as Jay is at fault for number of aspects that got it to this point and that is a fact, it is becoming more and more clear that the Players on the PGAT are no better then LIV players when it comes to $$$$ grab.

 

Streelman and Griffin sitting on the PAC and saying it is the stupidist thing we have ever done, well that does set a tone.   Funny how they talk about the points too.  Many noted that it would not work right when it was annouced,  it so obvious it was to skewed and it is showing true now.

 

The fact that more and more players are starting to speak out hard, has the view that the PAC does nothing. That players like Jordan is being pointed out and only trying to protect / benefit a certain handful of players.   That is not good image.

 

The perception is getting worse the more this comes out and perception is 90% the rule if you dont answer up. 

Edited June 8 by CDM

[leezer99]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Have you forgotten that they play team golf in high school and college?  They played team golf for years before joining the PGAT.

I don't watch those either. 

[stinger_gc]

15 hours ago, NormanFan said:

 

Yes, they were in the U.S. because the players were largely refusing to go elsewhere.  Remember in 2001 when they tried to do the match play in Australia and about 60% of the field decided not to show up?

Guys aren’t gonna go play abroad unless they get an appearance fee or are contractually obliged. The grow the game moniker is just “I’m here because they paid me a boatload”.

Edited June 8 by stinger_gc

[Golferpaul]

5 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

They played team golf for a couple of years in college because they had no choice, it’s the format.  

No, most of them played team golf for four years in college and three or four years in high school.  Some also played three years in Jr High. My point is that they played team golf for at least seven years so it's nothing new for them.

[Ghost of Snead]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

No, most of them played team golf for four years in college and three or four years in high school.  Some also played three years in Jr High. My point is that they played team golf for at least seven years so it's nothing new for them.

 

They played amateur team golf for schools and were not playing for a living. Except for an occasional event like the Zurich/President's or Ryder Cup, most PGA pros don't care about team golf. If they did, it would have been raised as a concern years ago. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 hours ago, CDM said:

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/06/08/jay-monahan-pga-tour-commissioner-rank-and-file-signature-events/

 

Fully know that there will always be someone who is not happy regardless how things works out in business.   

 

This though is the feeling of have and have nots is really starting to take hold.

 

I do agree the Players event was great this year, so I see the point on the limited field comment. Yet as we all know the top players (all ready in the SIGs) want the limited fields as they make way more money and do it vs less competition.... Oddly sounds like another start of tour 🤣

 

 

I've been on record since the elevated--now signature--events were unfolded that I disagree with limited fields. I don't mind the idea of creating signature events with elevated purses to attract the best players so you get them together more often. But I don't want limited fields or no-cut events. 

 

Let the larger purse attract the players, not cutting out half the field. 

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

No, most of them played team golf for four years in college and three or four years in high school.  Some also played three years in Jr High. My point is that they played team golf for at least seven years so it's nothing new for them.

 

You honestly think that young golfers give a rat’s behind about the team aspect of high school golf. I’ve been around high school golfers for the last two decades at various clubs.  They are 99% about their individual game and 1% about whatever their teammates do.  Golf is an individual sport.  Adding up scores doesn’t make something a team sport.  You can try to spin it anyway you want, but golf is not a team sport and never will be.  The team aspect of LIV is irrelevant.

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

No, most of them played team golf for four years in college and three or four years in high school.  Some also played three years in Jr High. My point is that they played team golf for at least seven years so it's nothing new for them.

 

Nobody is saying it's new to them. The question is whether it's compelling, and whether the players like it. 

 

I can say with a son playing HS golf, his #1 goal is to shoot a good individual score. He just completed his sophomore year on JV, and one of the biggest things we were proud of this year wasn't the team W-L record--I don't think he knows what it was--but that he improved enough to be essentially the top or #2 player on the JV squad, so he has line of sight with improvements to making varsity next year if he works hard enough. 

 

The format of HS or college golf is an individual stroke play event, and then you aggregate scores to see which "team" won. As I understand it in college, the culture is that there's plenty of competition between teammates, which is cutthroat as they are trying as hard as they can to beat their teammates to be the #1 or #2 guy on the team, not "working together" to beat their opposing "team" that week. 

 

This isn't like football where you go out as a squad and everyone tries to pull their own weight and excel in their individual roles, but if the team loses they all go to the locker room with their heads hanging. Pretty sure in college golf if one player shoots 65 and the rest of his team shoots 74+ and the team loses, that player who shot 65 isn't hanging his head. 

[jdl]

On 6/7/2024 at 4:17 PM, bscinstnct said:

13k viewers watching the Houston event on YouTube 

 

After spending $500,000,000 on Rahmbo 😳

 

ARum gotta be ready to deal!

Everyone has switched over to caffeine.tv! 🤣

[bcjim]

4 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

No, most of them played team golf for four years in college and three or four years in high school.  Some also played three years in Jr High. My point is that they played team golf for at least seven years so it's nothing new for them.

Most of the team play is meaningless in both HS and college. In many sports not just golf. Most of the teams in any given year are not in contention for league/conference/state/national titles. 

[CDM]

19 hours ago, bcjim said:

Most of the team play is meaningless in both HS and college. In many sports not just golf. Most of the teams in any given year are not in contention for league/conference/state/national titles. 

 

All the recent comments seems like they will get a deal done between PGAT / LIV so pretty high chance team golf will be included.

Edited June 9 by CDM

[ashortgame]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:37 AM, leezer99 said:

Role players (non captains that are playing well) are looking for bigger better long term contracts and not getting them. They’ll be the first to go. I know of two that have been speaking with the PGA on how to come back. 

Oh really?

Who are they?

 

[Golferpaul]

12 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

You honestly think that young golfers give a rat’s behind about the team aspect of high school golf. I’ve been around high school golfers for the last two decades at various clubs.  They are 99% about their individual game and 1% about whatever their teammates do.  Golf is an individual sport.  Adding up scores doesn’t make something a team sport.  You can try to spin it anyway you want, but golf is not a team sport and never will be.  The team aspect of LIV is irrelevant.

Now you are changing the subject.  I never said they like team events.  I was responding to a post that said they don't play team events.  They do, and for years.

[Golferpaul]

11 hours ago, bcjim said:

Most of the team play is meaningless in both HS and college. In many sports not just golf. Most of the teams in any given year are not in contention for league/conference/state/national titles. 

Tell Scottie and his buddies that their winning conference championships and the Walker Cup were meaningless and they will think you are from Mars.

[freeze16172002]

13 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

They played amateur team golf for schools and were not playing for a living. Except for an occasional event like the Zurich/President's or Ryder Cup, most PGA pros don't care about team golf. If they did, it would have been raised as a concern years ago. 

They use aluminuim bats in college,  In college football, contact is not necessary to be ruled down. Things change when you go pro. In AM golf they are still individually ranked

Edited June 9 by freeze16172002

[freeze16172002]

On 6/8/2024 at 9:01 AM, drbonesvt said:

LIV in Houston this week , couple buddies going , I’m sorry I just can’t , 54 holes of contrived crap.  Rahm ,  Reed , fat Perez , 3 I dislike the most .  Hard no with adder I’d rather eat broken glass.  

Rahm has become the poster child for not joining LIV. He looks miserable, now he is hurt, his game is in the toilet. 

[aenemated]

14 hours ago, bcjim said:

Most of the team play is meaningless in both HS and college.

 

All I ever cared about during my 4 years on my HS team was winning medalist at every match. Seriously couldn't have possibly cared less how the rest of my team did - I wanted to beat all of them, too 😂

[Cactus Jack]

2 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Rahm has become the poster child for not joining LIV. He looks miserable, now he is hurt, his game is in the toilet. 

Speith, Cantlay, Thomas, Finau, Burns, Fowler, Zalaroris, Matsuyama, Hovland, Young, Fitzpatrick, etc have become the poster children for not joining the PGAT. They look miserable, several hurt, and their games are in the toilet.  
 

The logic makes sense, right? Another interpretation could be professional golf is hard. 

[Holy Moses]

2 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Rahm has become the poster child for not joining LIV. He looks miserable, now he is hurt, his game is in the toilet. 

And you can tell he’s not happy. From his first interview on Fox to present, he can’t smile. He’s can’t hide it.