Do golfers really understand the trade-off when playing jacked irons?

[Red4282]

7 minutes ago, Ephemerlol said:

Loft for loft the strong set will be around half an inch shorter generally speaking.  This should lower clubhead speed and therefore spin, but it will also make it easier to find the middle which might produce better ballspeed anyway. 

 

The whole idea is just finding clubs that help you hit the ball how you want to.  That means different things to different people.  Realistically you could probably get very similar results by just bending your weaker set strong and adjusting the wedges to match.

True but you could also just cut your current set down 1/2 inch, and still achieve the same thing.

[Ephemerlol]

And add weight to all the heads too.  You could definitely make it work, but it seems like some people prefer to just buy a set.

[NoTalentLefty]

10 hours ago, taki27 said:

There hasn’t been a 30 degree 5 iron made since 1995

Mine was 27 or 28 in 1992. 

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Ephemerlol said:

The whole idea is just finding clubs that help you hit the ball how you want to.  That means different things to different people.  Realistically you could probably get very similar results by just bending your weaker set strong and adjusting the wedges to match.

What it means to me is this. The clearest difference between clubs I'll score well with and those I won't can be tested by simply how easily the 6, 7, 8, 9, whatever iron lets me hit a 150 yard shot from the fairway high, straight, in the right direction and stops the ball within a reasonable distance once it hits the green.

 

A lot of irons will work just fine for me on, say, a 110-yard shot and as a short-hitting double digit handicapper I'm never going to find it easier to hit high, straight, soft-landing shots from 170+ yards. But with a really ideal set of irons (like my current T300's or 'most any of the Ping G-series, probably lots of others) that 150-yard approach shot is just about one I have a fair chance of success.

 

Heavier, smaller-headed, less forgiving irons without low and deep CG and hot faces makes a 150-yard shot feel nearly as hard as a 170 or 180 yard one. I find it's a fair way of comparing irons. 

The magic formula for me seems to be a steel shaft around 90-100g and a large cavity-back clubhead with wide sole, high-COR face and a loft around 29-30 degrees. And then the rest of the set gapping off that 150-yard club in something like 8 to 10 to maybe 12 yard increments. The one thing that does not matter is whether that particular club has an 8 or a 4 the greek letter omicron on the sole.  

[Feelingofgreatness]

Lots of blah blah blah... 

All I know, I love my pxg xps and they've lowered my scores bigtime and made the game fun and easier. 

And when i hit 6i from 190 and others are hitting 4h, I feel like Mr. UNIVERSE! 😂

[cardoustie]

The right spin is the thing.  I have buddies that were crazy high spin weak iron players …. Changed to low spin heads and are in dream town 

[boggyman]

4 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

Yes, but my point was that the higher lofted 7i flew higher and a club longer. Players with moderate clubhead speed can lose distance if the loft is too little and clubhead has a higher vertical center of gravity..

 

And yes, the MAX had more weight back and low.

 

And, a strange combo plan emerged for this original (2018) Mavrik iron family. Callaway recommended a blended set of MavPro 7i-PW, and MavMax 4i-6i.

 

The standard Mavriks have stronger lofts than Pro or Max, and simply didn't blend well with the other two models.  

I remember discussing the blended set once upon a time with you I believe. I contemplated it but never went that route. 

[boggyman]

10 hours ago, ECgolf said:

I never understand the “what club did you hit” question’s relevance to anything. Setting aside the different lofts, golfers hit such different distances anyway. Like, if you’re playing with Brooks Koepka and you both play zx7s, what relevance to you is it what iron he hit on that 160 yard par 3? Of course he hit a different club than most on this thread will (or should). Same concept applies to rando ameaturs we play with, just not as obvious an extreme generally.  In my regular foursome, two of us have similar length, one is about a club shorter and one is way longer. So, I ask what distance they played? And they will respond something like “I hit my 150 club” or “clubbed up and hit my 170 club with an easy swing”. I never understood why anyone tried to glean anything from someone else telling them I hit my 7 iron. Even if they tell me the loft, that tells me nothing about what it means for me, unless I know their game well. And, if what the question is really about is a dick measuring competition on who can hit it further, that also seems misguided with irons in particular. I want consistent/reliable distance with my irons more than out and out length. If I can hit an 80% 7 iron to a distance more consistently than a full 8 iron or a muscled delofted 9, I’d choose the 7 over showing how far I can hit my 8 or 9. Some dudes try to mash every shot. To each their own, but I see no relevance in what they do to my game, nor in what I do to theirs. 

I see no difference in gleaning over a number vs a distance played. I hardly ever ask when playing in our weekly games. Could care less. I know what I need to cover and that’s all that matters to me. Irons are for accuracy, and if you hit them long, that’s just an added bonus. Told our son in his early days of HS golf years ago,  they’ll always be somebody hit it further. It’s a given! 

[Chopper Dave]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:08 AM, jjfcpa said:

Most higher handicap golfers understand this, but I wonder if the average amateur golfer understands the trade-off when playing irons with stronger lofts.

 

 

honestly I can’t let this one go. It has me in stitches. Must be why so many club fitters are high hcappers

[philly2kuk]

1 hour ago, Chopper Dave said:

honestly I can’t let this one go. It has me in stitches. Must be why so many club fitters are high hcappers

I saw that comment and laughed as well. Most high handicappers understand this yet average golfers don’t? Isn’t that average golfer a mid handicapper?

[ECgolf]

7 hours ago, CROUSE99 said:

Yesterday, on a 130 yard par 3, a teammate hit 50 degree wedge and I hit 8 iron.  We both hit good shots.  The number on the club really doesn't matter.

I 100% agree. Having the tool that helps you hit the right distance is all that matters. 

[ECgolf]

2 hours ago, boggyman said:

I see no difference in gleaning over a number vs a distance played. I hardly ever ask when playing in our weekly games. Could care less. I know what I need to cover and that’s all that matters to me. Irons are for accuracy, and if you hit them long, that’s just an added bonus. Told our son in his early days of HS golf years ago,  they’ll always be somebody hit it further. It’s a given! 

I may be misunderstanding your post, but usually when I’m asking my mates it’s because I’m unsure what I need to cover (for example I know the back of the bunker is 140 away, but given the wind I’m unsure if I should play it as if it were 150 without wind or more). I know whether they normally hit it further than me or not, that’s not why I’m asking. 

[bluedot]

13 hours ago, Red4282 said:

That would be fine if rearward cogs have in fact moved back, but they have not. And in fact your i5 cog is more rearward than the t200. You are right on shaft lengths, but thats player dependent,  as someone like me who plays longer than standard, having a shorter 7 iron is counterproductive.

It is impressive to me that you know the location of the COG of both the i5 and the T200, and that the COG of the i5 is more “rearward”.   That’s quite a knowledge base.

[cardoustie]

It’s funny, I have a group of 70 guys in Florida …. and sometimes you need to know your lofts across sets

 

one guy was super long with his irons first time I played with him and he hit a 7i over the back of a par 3, it was 170 into a 2 club wind.  I am generally longer than this guy all day long so it gave me a wtf moment

 

Cally epic forged … 27* 7i it turns out … I now have the heads in 6 and 7 but don’t love them thru the turf 

[Red4282]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

It is impressive to me that you know the location of the COG of both the i5 and the T200, and that the COG of the i5 is more “rearward”.   That’s quite a knowledge base.

Oh no lol-had to look it up

https://www.golfworks.com/head-mpf-ratings/

[Esox]

Iron technology has changed the game. When I was 30, my blade 6I had 31 degrees of loft and carried 173.

At 63 my 7 iron has 30 degrees of loft and carries 171, on a towering trajectory with steep decent and great spin.

I am certainly not swinging the same speed these days. LOL

And my drive is 25 yards shorter..

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Esox

[NoTalentLefty]

So do all of you think this post is just a justification for one man’s opinion? Or does it have validity. My view this post has ran its course and it seems familiar, like this has been discussed before on other posts but with a new spin. I’m keeping my 27 degree 7 iron and the rest of my XPs and I do understand the supposed trade off . All I see is an easy irons to hit. 

[North Butte]

14 minutes ago, Esox said:

Iron technology has changed the game. When I was 30, my blade 6I had 31 degrees of loft and carried 173.

At 63 my 7 iron has 30 degrees of loft and carries 171, on a towering trajectory with steep decent and great spin.

I am certainly not swinging the same speed these days. LOL

And my drive is 25 yards shorter..

 

Yep.

Even going back not quite so far. If I pulled out the irons I used in the late 90s and compared them to the ones I’m using now we’re talking not just a few yards longer loft for loft but literally twice the height and descent angle from 150 yards out as what I could do with those old clubs.

 

And while I do think my Stealth driver is better performing than my first generation, 460 cc titanium driver 25 years ago, at most I am maybe 10 yards of carry longer with it but straighter. Now if we’re talking about the laminated maple wooden driver with a steel shaft I used my first year of playing golf? That’s a whole different matter!

[North Butte]

1 minute ago, NoTalentLefty said:

So do all of you think this post is just a justification for one man’s opinion? Or does it have validity. My view this post has ran its course and it seems familiar, like this has been discussed before on other posts but with a new spin. I’m keeping my 27 degree 7 iron and the rest of my XPs and I do understand the supposed trade off . All I see is an easy irons to hit. 

At the risk of being impolite, the original post was precisely the same "spin" as dozens of previous threads whining about "jacked lofts". Nothing new in the OP, nothing new in our responses. We're all just saying the same things, thread after thread, year after year, rapidly turning into decade after decade. 

 

Heck, I'm pretty sure I remember on the old rec.sport.golf (which predates the World Wide Web) 30 years ago there were long, labored discussions of what we now call "loft jacking". Grumpy old men have been complaining about this stuff since at least the days of Ping Eye2's and Tommy Armour 845's. 

[vman]

There is no trade off. Iron lofts don't matter per say, you have a distance to hit, just pick your club and hit it. Nobody cares if you're using jacked lofts, hybrids or 5 times forged butter knives (proper golfer)....just hit the shot. Of course you can't work shovels tho'....everybody knows that.🤣

[PostandGhost]

I didn't realize that the number on the bottom of the 30º club had such an impact on performance.  

[golfgirlrobin]

On 5/28/2023 at 6:58 AM, North Butte said:

It's one thing to look at a 29-degree iron with "8" on the sole and thinking, "That's silly, it ought to have a 6 on it". But for some reason people who start these constant "loft jacking" complaint threads don't stop there. They seem to believe that "8" on the sole is going to somehow make that 29-degree club...well, I don't know what they think...what exactly is the downside supposed to be from having "8" rather than "6" on the sole? 

I believe the downside is that they don’t like some weekend schlub claiming they hit an 8-iron as far as their traditionally lofted 6-iron. Much talk about gaps and extra wedges and the occasional shot that goes an extra 20, but mostly ego.
 

 

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

Heck, I'm pretty sure I remember on the old rec.sport.golf (which predates the World Wide Web) 30 years ago there were long, labored discussions of what we now call "loft jacking". Grumpy old men have been complaining about this stuff since at least the days of Ping Eye2's and Tommy Armour 845's. 

 

Man, it's been a while since I've seen rec.sport.golf mentioned. 

[North Butte]

1 minute ago, jvincent said:

 

Man, it's been a while since I've seen rec.sport.golf mentioned. 

Well that was in an earlier century, literally and figuratively. I only know of one person on this forum familiar to me from those days. But I won’t name any names😇

[ECgolf]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

At the risk of being impolite, the original post was precisely the same "spin" as dozens of previous threads whining about "jacked lofts". Nothing new in the OP, nothing new in our responses. We're all just saying the same things, thread after thread, year after year, rapidly turning into decade after decade. 

 

Heck, I'm pretty sure I remember on the old rec.sport.golf (which predates the World Wide Web) 30 years ago there were long, labored discussions of what we now call "loft jacking". Grumpy old men have been complaining about this stuff since at least the days of Ping Eye2's and Tommy Armour 845's. 

Agree. What’s new is some of the participants. This happens with so many things in life. New generations of folks arguing over the same (or similar) things a prior generation did. The old folks get grumpy about having this argument yet again, but still dive in to give their two cents. The young folks are excited and think they have some angle or insight nobody ever has and that they will put the issue to bed with their logic and savvy. Those in the middle roll their eyes a little at both while either enjoying or being annoyed at the banter. Hell, even this post I’m writing now is almost certainly a retread of what some other dude who like me probably thought he was more insightful than he is, droned on about in a thread like this before. And yet, I can’t help myself. 😂

Edited May 29, 2023 by ECgolf

[PedronNiall]

Going to say no, most players don't understand the trade-offs one way or another because most golfers are casual players who just buy whatever looks good to them and/or something from a brand they're familiar with and on some level they relate to and believe will help them be better. Most aren't going to sift through all the discussions available to figure out the ins and outs of the gear. 

 

Certainly easy to see why players who buy clubs every few years would be sold on the brands that give them 10 more yards on the club labeled 7 vs the 7 from a brand that doesn't. Most golfers aren't and won't ever be WRXers.

[boggyman]

11 hours ago, ECgolf said:

I may be misunderstanding your post, but usually when I’m asking my mates it’s because I’m unsure what I need to cover (for example I know the back of the bunker is 140 away, but given the wind I’m unsure if I should play it as if it were 150 without wind or more). I know whether they normally hit it further than me or not, that’s not why I’m asking. 

Understood. Thanks for clarifying!

[Red4282]

3 hours ago, Esox said:

Iron technology has changed the game. When I was 30, my blade 6I had 31 degrees of loft and carried 173.

At 63 my 7 iron has 30 degrees of loft and carries 171, on a towering trajectory with steep decent and great spin.

I am certainly not swinging the same speed these days. LOL

And my drive is 25 yards shorter..

 

Something doesnt pass the smell test

[garyt]

On 5/28/2023 at 6:34 AM, Port and Starboard said:

Loft is loft.   

 

Nobody cares if your hitting a wedge - 7 iron - Hybrid to a 120 yard pin.

 

I routinely get beat by a 80 year old friend in my association who hits a Hybrid from 120 while I am hitting a wedge. He's a single digit hdcp and I am a 10?

 

We have a few younger guys in our association who seem to take pride in hitting pitching wedges from 150 yards.......... while playing to a 12-13 hdcp or higher?

 

 

I agree loft is loft but aren't the jacked lofted irons also shorter than their same lofted counterparts? In other words a jacked 28* 7 iron is shorter than an older 28* 5 iron and it goes the same distance or better wouldn't it also be easier to hit? That's where I think jacked lofts can help.

Edited May 29, 2023 by garyt

[Red4282]

33 minutes ago, garyt said:

I agree loft is loft but aren't the jacked lofted irons also shorter than their same lofted counterparts? In other words a jacked 28* 7 iron is shorter than an older 28* 5 iron and it goes the same distance or better wouldn't it also be easier to hit? That's where I think jacked lofts can help.

1/2 inch shorter means less speed, unless a spring face makes up the difference. Easier to hit? Perhaps, but like mentioned before, cut your current set down 1/2” and add 6 grams to the head. There, how revolutionary! The stamped number on the bottom wouldn’t change though. The only reasonable and logical validations of having stronger lofts is spring faces that cause higher peak heights, or just simple gapping purposes. Thats it. The spinning and launch stuff is nonsense.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Red4282