Do golfers really understand the trade-off when playing jacked irons?

[Red4282]

20 hours ago, morgan1819 said:

In order of importance:

 

1 Coffee

2 Grinder

3 Machine

 

Most of us spend a little too much time looking for that perfect machine, when really it should be about the coffee.  But machines are more fun than a coffee bean.  

 

 

 

 

 

Going out on a limb here, coffee is coffee. As long as it’s relatively freshly brewed, im good.

[Red4282]

9 hours ago, JDIL said:

 

That's fine to like it, but the standardization again, is the shaft length. Give or take 1/4", a 37" steel shaft is the 7 iron (add or subtract for graphite, women's etc.). That's what labeling it a 7 tells me. It's a 37" shaft. Shaft length is critical, maybe one of the most critical factors.

Excpept it isnt really. You have one-length, graphite standards are longer than steel as well. What this whole thing boils down to is association. We all hit a 34 degree club (or something close), but we are arguing over what to call it. I for one could care less what you call it. I just push back on the narrative that its required because of certain reasons, which most tend to be myths.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Red4282

[Messier11]

IMO, loft jacking is a net disservice to golfers. It's more than just calling yesterday's 6-iron a 7-iron today. Here are two issues with loft jacking:

1) Loft gapping is a total mess. In modern sets today it's not uncommon to have a 2.0* or 2.5* gap between a 5 and a 6 iron and a 5* or 6* gap between short irons. This results in small yardage gaps between the longer irons and large yardage gaps between the short irons. How does that help golfers?

2) While club companies have decreased the lofts they have not decreased the head weight or increased the standard length of that club. So instead of hitting a 38" 5-iron with a head weight of 252 grams, we're now hitting a 37.5" 6-iron with a head weight of 260 grams. Seems to me that change would lose 1-2 mph of club speed.

And, as an aside, I don't buy the manufacturer's claims that CoGs are lower so they have to decrease loft (justifying their loft jacking). Such rubbish. Check the specs of OEM clubs over the last 20 years on the Golfworks web site. CoGs have not been coming down.

[Binson]

Do golfers understand that if you want to be fixed on loft, it should be dynamic loft rather than static loft?

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

19 hours ago, JDIL said:

On Golfwrx everyone many clamor for the strong 3w, but jus as many poo-pooing the strong 7 iron. 🤷‍♂️

Did I miss something???  Strong 3 wd is a different animal compared to a strong iron.  Only similarity is the word "strong."  LOL  I haven't seen anyone poo-pooing strong lofted irons. 

 

I played traditional lofted 620 MBs for a long time, till late last year, when I switched to stronger lofted T00s.  The difference between each 4i is amazing.  I switched to make up for the effects of aging, which they have done, handily.  At my age, I don't have the horsepower to hit 4i 195-200yds anymore, and NOT afraid to say it.  Late last year 620MB 4i was 178yds, and 7i was 138+yds carry; now, 7i is 148+ carry, and 4i is easy 195+yards. 

 

The problem for so many people, they are afraid of their truth; they need help.  We're NOT all a like. 

[KGrinols]

I've always wondered... It seems very simple and kind of completely dismisses all the jacked loft concerns.  So I'm probably wrong, because it just seems so obvious, that I have to be overlooking something.

 

The best players in the world, deliver the club in a manner where they naturally DEloft the club.  Right?

 

A quick Google search shows that the PGA average of a PW "dynamic loft" is 24.2 degrees.  Assuming their average static lift is probably 48, we're talking about delivering the club with HALF the loft that's on the club.

 

So... For amateurs who obviously don't deliver the club face with nearly as much compression, forward shaft lean, early release, and the million other swing flaws, if we assume they deliver the club half way, let's say 36 degrees of dynamic loft... They could technically use a 10 degree stronger loft, to end up with the exact same dynamic loft as a PGA player.

 

So, does loft jacking actually mean anything?  Or is it purpose built, to result in optimal delivered loft, for the average golfer.

 

Because, hypothetically, if I use a 40 degree PW, and you use a 48 degree PW, but we both deliver the exact same loft at impact... Am I actually at any advantage?  If I beat you in yardage, would "yeah well you're using jacked lofts" even be a valid response?

 

Dynamic loft is all that matters, the ball doesn't know what static loft was, it only knows delivered loft, and will spin accordingly. (Speed, angle, CG, moi, I get it, just trying to keep it simple)

 

So... Does loft jacking actually exist?  Or are manufacturers just giving you the right loft, on the right club, that puts your dynamic loft, in the right window?

 

Obviously, you can go too far, and I'm sure some manufacturers probably have already gone beyond optimal, but... Just food for thought.

 

No one would look down on a pro for intentionally delofting the club to fabricate distances.

 

We should basically just be thinking "optimal 7i dynamic loft is 19 degrees, you naturally DEloft 8 degrees in average, so your ideal 7i lift would be 27 degrees. (I made these numbers up for example, please put the pitchforks away)

 

Would it really matter if 27 is a traditional 5i? If that's what it takes to hit a traditional 7i "shot" for your dynamic swing\club delivery?

 

How far off am I?

Edited June 1, 2023 by KGrinols

[Red4282]

2 hours ago, KGrinols said:

I've always wondered... It seems very simple and kind of completely dismisses all the jacked loft concerns.  So I'm probably wrong, because it just seems so obvious, that I have to be overlooking something.

 

The best players in the world, deliver the club in a manner where they naturally DEloft the club.  Right?

 

A quick Google search shows that the PGA average of a PW "dynamic loft" is 24.2 degrees.  Assuming their average static lift is probably 48, we're talking about delivering the club with HALF the loft that's on the club.

 

So... For amateurs who obviously don't deliver the club face with nearly as much compression, forward start lean, early release, and the million other swing flaws, if we assume they deliver the club half way, let's say 36 degrees of dynamic loft... They could technically use a 10 degree stronger loft, to end up with the exact same dynamic loft as a PGA player.

 

So, does loft jacking actually mean anything?  Or is it purpose built, to result in optimal delivered loft, for the average golfer.

 

Because, hypothetically, if I use a 40 degree PW, and you use a 48 degree PW, but we both deliver the exact same loft at impact... Am I actually at any advantage?  If I beat you in yardage, would "yeah well you're usually jacked lofts" even be a valid response?

 

And if dynamic loft is all that matters, the ball doesn't know what static loft was, it only knows delivered loft, and will spin accordingly. (Speed, angle, CG, moi, I get it, just trying to keep it simple)

 

So... Does loft jacking actually exist?  Or are manufacturers just giving you the right loft, on the right club, that puts your dynamic loft, in the right window?

 

Obviously, you can go too far, and I'm sure some manufacturers probably have already gone beyond optimal, but... Just food for thought.

 

No one would look down on a pro for intentionally delofting the club to fabricate distances.

 

We should basically just be thinking "optimal 7i dynamic loft is 19 degrees, you naturally DEloft 8 degrees in average, so your ideal 7i lift would be 27 degrees. (I made these numbers up for example, please put the pitchforks away)

 

Would it really matter if 27 is a traditional 5i? If that's what it takes to hit a traditional 7i "shot" for your dynamic swing\club delivery?

 

How far off am I?

You arent wrong, to a degree… but its fools gold. If it takes you ten degrees of stronger loft to hit your “pitching wedge”  the same as a pro… the reality is you are hitting a 7 iron (or traditionally lofted 7 iron) to accomplish it. There is no shame in just being short with sub par mechanics. Strong lofts doesnt change that, it just masks it. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Red4282

[jjfcpa]

3 hours ago, KGrinols said:

I've always wondered... It seems very simple and kind of completely dismisses all the jacked loft concerns.  So I'm probably wrong, because it just seems so obvious, that I have to be overlooking something.

 

The best players in the world, deliver the club in a manner where they naturally DEloft the club.  Right?

 

A quick Google search shows that the PGA average of a PW "dynamic loft" is 24.2 degrees.  Assuming their average static lift is probably 48, we're talking about delivering the club with HALF the loft that's on the club.

 

So... For amateurs who obviously don't deliver the club face with nearly as much compression, forward start lean, early release, and the million other swing flaws, if we assume they deliver the club half way, let's say 36 degrees of dynamic loft... They could technically use a 10 degree stronger loft, to end up with the exact same dynamic loft as a PGA player.

 

So, does loft jacking actually mean anything?  Or is it purpose built, to result in optimal delivered loft, for the average golfer.

 

Because, hypothetically, if I use a 40 degree PW, and you use a 48 degree PW, but we both deliver the exact same loft at impact... Am I actually at any advantage?  If I beat you in yardage, would "yeah well you're usually jacked lofts" even be a valid response?

 

And if dynamic loft is all that matters, the ball doesn't know what static loft was, it only knows delivered loft, and will spin accordingly. (Speed, angle, CG, moi, I get it, just trying to keep it simple)

 

So... Does loft jacking actually exist?  Or are manufacturers just giving you the right loft, on the right club, that puts your dynamic loft, in the right window?

 

Obviously, you can go too far, and I'm sure some manufacturers probably have already gone beyond optimal, but... Just food for thought.

 

No one would look down on a pro for intentionally delofting the club to fabricate distances.

 

We should basically just be thinking "optimal 7i dynamic loft is 19 degrees, you naturally DEloft 8 degrees in average, so your ideal 7i lift would be 27 degrees. (I made these numbers up for example, please put the pitchforks away)

 

Would it really matter if 27 is a traditional 5i? If that's what it takes to hit a traditional 7i "shot" for your dynamic swing\club delivery?

 

How far off am I?

In theory, there is no way that I can disagree with what you are saying; however, generally, we are not talking about how "loft jacking" affects one player versus another.  It's how it affect YOU.  Let me explain.

 

What I am saying is that you may hit your 7 iron 140 yards with club A.  Then manufacturer ABC comes out with a new set that you can hit their 7 iron 150 yards.  You naturally assume that manufacturer ABC has hotter face or some new technology in their 7 iron, but in fact, they have just increased the loft.  All most golfers recognize is that ABC's 7 iron is superior to the club they are currently using.

 

As a golfer and consumer, it would be better if lofts were standardized and then it would be much easier to evaluate which club performs better for YOU.  Unless you have a launch monitor that can show you what the delivered loft is, there is no way for you to determine which club is actually performing better for YOU.

 

It would be much easier to get fitted for golf clubs if lofts were standardized.  My opinion is that manufacturers are approaching the point where their is very little technologically that they can do to make golf clubs perform better, so they are working on "new terminology" and "marketing hype" to make you THINK they are better.  

 

If club technology was really getting better, lofts would be getting larger rather than smaller because clubs with higher lofts are easier to hit - 5 iron vs 9 iron as an example.

 

[chollier986]

4 hours ago, KGrinols said:

I've always wondered... It seems very simple and kind of completely dismisses all the jacked loft concerns.  So I'm probably wrong, because it just seems so obvious, that I have to be overlooking something.

 

The best players in the world, deliver the club in a manner where they naturally DEloft the club.  Right?

 

A quick Google search shows that the PGA average of a PW "dynamic loft" is 24.2 degrees.  Assuming their average static lift is probably 48, we're talking about delivering the club with HALF the loft that's on the club.

 

So... For amateurs who obviously don't deliver the club face with nearly as much compression, forward start lean, early release, and the million other swing flaws, if we assume they deliver the club half way, let's say 36 degrees of dynamic loft... They could technically use a 10 degree stronger loft, to end up with the exact same dynamic loft as a PGA player.

 

So, does loft jacking actually mean anything?  Or is it purpose built, to result in optimal delivered loft, for the average golfer.

 

Because, hypothetically, if I use a 40 degree PW, and you use a 48 degree PW, but we both deliver the exact same loft at impact... Am I actually at any advantage?  If I beat you in yardage, would "yeah well you're usually jacked lofts" even be a valid response?

 

And if dynamic loft is all that matters, the ball doesn't know what static loft was, it only knows delivered loft, and will spin accordingly. (Speed, angle, CG, moi, I get it, just trying to keep it simple)

 

So... Does loft jacking actually exist?  Or are manufacturers just giving you the right loft, on the right club, that puts your dynamic loft, in the right window?

 

Obviously, you can go too far, and I'm sure some manufacturers probably have already gone beyond optimal, but... Just food for thought.

 

No one would look down on a pro for intentionally delofting the club to fabricate distances.

 

We should basically just be thinking "optimal 7i dynamic loft is 19 degrees, you naturally DEloft 8 degrees in average, so your ideal 7i lift would be 27 degrees. (I made these numbers up for example, please put the pitchforks away)

 

Would it really matter if 27 is a traditional 5i? If that's what it takes to hit a traditional 7i "shot" for your dynamic swing\club delivery?

 

How far off am I?

You are confusing launch angle with dynamic loft.  Yes, good players deloft irons at impact, but nowhere near by half.  

[mogc60]

Here are my yardages basically my entire golfing life of over 30 years. For most of my life I weakened my lofts to have the yardages I want

7 iron 170

8 iron 160

9 iron 148-50

wedge 135

sand 115

lob 95

you get the picture. 
 

So currently my irons have much stronger lofts. I’m 50, my ball flight has gone up just slightly and my 7 iron flies 175 now and my pitching wedge flies 140. Gap wedge 125, sand 110

Please explain to me what I’ve traded off?  Am I giving up anything? I have the same control, better performance on mis hits. My handicap is still on the plus side. I just have never understood the argument around guys playing what they feel is best for their games. 20 years ago my pitching wedge was 48 degrees and I hit it lower than I do today. And 5 yards shorter.  I’m hitting my irons the distance I want to to maximize my bag. I’m yet to read anything in this thread that is any kind of trade off

[Red4282]

8 hours ago, mogc60 said:

Here are my yardages basically my entire golfing life of over 30 years. For most of my life I weakened my lofts to have the yardages I want

7 iron 170

8 iron 160

9 iron 148-50

wedge 135

sand 115

lob 95

you get the picture. 
 

So currently my irons have much stronger lofts. I’m 50, my ball flight has gone up just slightly and my 7 iron flies 175 now and my pitching wedge flies 140. Gap wedge 125, sand 110

Please explain to me what I’ve traded off?  Am I giving up anything? I have the same control, better performance on mis hits. My handicap is still on the plus side. I just have never understood the argument around guys playing what they feel is best for their games. 20 years ago my pitching wedge was 48 degrees and I hit it lower than I do today. And 5 yards shorter.  I’m hitting my irons the distance I want to to maximize my bag. I’m yet to read anything in this thread that is any kind of trade off

Because there isnt any real trade off when it comes to lofts. The trade off IMO is with spring/cup faces.

[DevilDog]

The cynic in me says a lot of the loft jacking helps OEMs sell more clubs.  Back in the day, when PW was say 48*, you'd need maybe one or two more wedges.  Now, with a 43 PW for example, you need a 47 or 48, then the 2 or 3 more wedges.  So that's at least one additional club.  On the longer club end, now you need a hybrid or two.  Another additional club or two.  So, now instead of the standard 8 irons, you have to have 7 or 8 irons and a hybrid or two and another wedge or two, about 10 or 11 clubs instead of 8.  That's money to the OEMs

[jwb10]

16 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Did I miss something???  Strong 3 wd is a different animal compared to a strong iron.  Only similarity is the word "strong."  LOL  I haven't seen anyone poo-pooing strong lofted irons. 

 

I played traditional lofted 620 MBs for a long time, till late last year, when I switched to stronger lofted T00s.  The difference between each 4i is amazing.  I switched to make up for the effects of aging, which they have done, handily.  At my age, I don't have the horsepower to hit 4i 195-200yds anymore, and NOT afraid to say it.  Late last year 620MB 4i was 178yds, and 7i was 138+yds carry; now, 7i is 148+ carry, and 4i is easy 195+yards. 

 

The problem for so many people, they are afraid of their truth; they need help.  We're NOT all a like. 

truth, this  ^^^^^^^^

[uitar9]

Longer straighter-I need new clubs

 

That is the manufacturer mantra

[GHIN n Juice]

You know who really liked strong lofted irons?…almost every pro who played pre2010.  There was actually an industry name for strengthening irons 2 degrees.  It was called pro lofting a set.  So while all the traditionalists love a 35 degree 7 iron, the pros were playing it at 33 degrees, lol.  
 

Play what you need to get around the course in the fewest number of strokes.

[8thehardway]

OEMs keep it a secret but there's an alternative to all this technology... move up a set.  

  

[jjfcpa]

When OEM's started making clubs stronger lofted, they had to change something to help golfers get the ball up in the air, hence the need for more weight in the lower sections of the head.

 

Adding more weight to the lower sections of the head may mean they have to use a lighter shaft or redistribute the weight to the grip so that it doesn't feel like your swinging a sledge hammer.

 

Is it any wonder that golfers have to be fitted to find the right combinations of heads, shafts, and grips to make the club work for them.  No wonder all you hear is "get fit".

[Mark38]

I consider my Mizuno mp33 lofts jacked...

5i 28*

7i 36*

9i 44*

[Hehateme]

Gonna be succinct here, the OG is wrong

[Kid Frisco]

This thread makes my head hurt.  I went from a 13 to 7.7 index using a full PXG bag which includes Gen4XP irons.  So it appears like all I’m giving up are index points. All the other numbers, TO ME, are just noise.

[Pepperturbo]

To the OP, probably not far.  Regardless of what manufactures market, people buy what they can afford and or like; often times no rhyme nor reason aligned to need, maybe just what Pros sell.  IMO WITB does more harm than good to inexperienced golfers.

 

Due to excessive spin, many people do NOT benefit from stronger lofted irons.  Most amateurs add loft before impact, so ball comes up surprisingly short, sometimes not even as far as traditional lofts.  Whereas Pros deloft with descending strike at impact making 7i fly like 5i.

 

Due to my age, I now benefit from stronger lofted irons, as they are giving back yardage that aging was bit by bit taking away.   I have always hit the ball with a descending strike.  However, the aging process is robbing me of swing speed which = spin & distance.  All anyone needs to do is improve your swing and learn how to strike the ball for max control and distance.

 

Pros are more consistent ball strikers with fast SS, so playing ALL strong lofted irons has no benefit.  When I was younger, it was easy to make a 7i into a 5i if needed just deloft.  Many Pros have one or two strong lofted long irons in the bag, rest are more traditional but adjusted for gaping purposes. 

 

Here's the funny part; many amateurs deloft only they don't know they are doing it.  A friend delofts every iron; as a result seldom knows how far each club hits the ball.  I hit 5i he's hitting 7i and playing army golf to find his ball, sometimes 30yds further than he expected.  Reason nobody I know actually teaches delofting. LOL

 

My 620 MB 5i is 27', my T100s 5i is 25'.  In other words, 2' difference between my MBs and T100s.

 

What screws up the minds and games of a lot of people, pontificating on "dynamic" this or that, and what Pros do, while overlooking what normal is for the average high-single digit to mid-hi cap amateur, and worrying about what others may be thinking of your equipment choices.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[caniac6]

Has the op said what the trade offs are? For me, longer, higher and straighter are the trade offs, and those are good things. I really can’t find any negatives when I can hit my 7 as long as an older 6, and as high as an 8, along with increased forgiveness.

[morgan1819]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:15 AM, Red4282 said:

On 5/30/2023 at 9:40 AM, morgan1819 said:

In order of importance:

 

1 Coffee

2 Grinder

3 Machine

 

Most of us spend a little too much time looking for that perfect machine, when really it should be about the coffee.  But machines are more fun than a coffee bean.  

 

 

 

 

 

Going out on a limb here, coffee is coffee. As long as it’s relatively freshly brewed, im good.

 

I wish that worked for me.  I do agree that people can get a little over particular regarding some things, but coffee 100% has levels in my opinion.  Dark roasted Robusta beans?  Nope.  Can't do it.

[Red4282]

5 minutes ago, morgan1819 said:

 

I wish that worked for me.  I do agree that people can get a little over particular regarding some things, but coffee 100% has levels in my opinion.  Dark roasted Robusta beans?  Nope.  Can't do it.

Well it’s probably because im a stevia+real cream or half&half guy… haha

[morgan1819]

That helps for sure!

 

[md12]

I agree with the initial posters thoughts until this year, then I played the Srixon zx4 mkii and they’re so badass and spin so well.    

[Esox]

On 5/31/2023 at 9:50 PM, jjfcpa said:

 

As a golfer and consumer, it would be better if lofts were standardized and then it would be much easier to evaluate which club performs better for YOU.  Unless you have a launch monitor that can show you what the delivered loft is, there is no way for you to determine which club is actually performing better for YOU.

 

 

 

They are "standardized" in essence. All loft is measured in degrees. The number stamped on the bottom of the club is irrelevant.

 

But when I see Ping stamping PW on a club with 41* of loft and saying its their "longest iron ever"  it is an insult to my intelligence.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Esox

[MilesVJackson]

22 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Due to my age, I now benefit from stronger lofted irons, as they are giving back yardage that aging was bit by bit taking away.   I have always hit the ball with a descending strike.  However, the aging process is robbing me of swing speed which = spin & distance.  All anyone needs to do is improve your swing and learn how to strike the ball for max control and distance.

 

The new irons aren't giving you back any yardage; you're still hitting a 30 degree iron shorter than you did when you were younger...the club just has a different number stamped on it now.  That said, I'm in my 60s now, and I play stronger lofted irons too, but I know I'm not hitting my irons as long as I used to once I take the stronger lofts into account.

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by MilesVJackson

[Pepperturbo]

Just now, MilesVJackson said:

The new irons aren't giving you back any yardage; you're still hitting a 30 degree iron shorter than you did when you were younger...the club just has a different number stamped on it now.  That said, I'm in my 60s now, and I play stronger lofted irons too, but I know I'm not hitting my irons as long as I used to one I take the stronger lofts into account.

 

TO me, design of T100s are different from T100, as well as my 620 MBs.  My 620 MB 7i is 35', my T100s 7i is 32, and T100s 8i is 36'.  They didn't just restamp heads from my 35' MB 7i. 

 

If I want a 150yr club I now use 36' 8i; yep different number on bottom, loft is 36, I now have a cavity back which adds to distance, vs internal design from my Muscle Back 7i being different.  Number on the bottom is not the only difference, but if that's how you see it, fine. 

 

To me, it's about attention to difference in design details from 620 MB to T100s head.  The difference for me is traditionally lofted Muscle Back head design to stronger lofted CavityBack head design, so I am getting more yards regardless of club number on bottom.

 

Thanks for the input.  Play well.

[NoTalentLefty]

I love peanut butter.