Am I being unreasonable? Cally Tour Issue Paradym 3D dispute.

[MattM97]

On 7/27/2023 at 2:18 PM, bcflyguy1 said:

That whole exchange went exactly the way I thought it would. Thanks again, @NoCalHack

 

Yes very entertaining 

 

[golffeen007]

1 hour ago, crsmith1234 said:

After hitting the club 5 times and it going no where something is wrong with the head.  I am not hitting it more to watch it implode or fly apart.   

@crsmith1234 

There’s been one minor question asked that hasn’t been answered. Why ask for the driver to be there by the 8th but not use it for 2 1/2 weeks? Are we to assume those plans fell through on the weekend of the 8th to game it? 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by golffeen007

[Pudgelewis]

47 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

 

yeah. Maybe he cracked it. It would suck for him if it did.

 

but fabricating a bogus complaint with bogus photos  to get me to pay for his misfortune is in no way innocent. Sorry. 

 

He's fabricating the story so he's not innocent and he's not innocent because he's fabricating the story. That seems to be the main hang-up and sounds like circular logic, but I'm not a philosopher and may be using that wrong. What if he's not fabricating the story? I'm saying, MAYBE he's innocent because the head is actually damaged somehow and he's telling the truth and you didn't notice it. Not saying that's the case, but I am saying that refusing to even allow that as an option in your head is a bit perplexing simply because some less-than-stellar photos don't appear to show it and it was 18 days before he contacted you. I doubt it's the kind of thing you would have noticed before shipping it based on the high-res pictures he posted.

 

I'm not even saying you owe him money. I'm just saying it may be a legit issue and your inability to even consider that is making the situation worse. His inability to say maybe you didn't notice it when you sold it and didn't mean any harm by it and his inability (as far as I can recall) to answer the question of why it took so long to hit it the "5 times" when he wanted it for the weekend is making the situation worse.

 

As far as the "cracks" go, I wouldn't expect a crack to be so linear, but I don't know how these new heads are designed and what a crack actually looks like with the materials they're using. I'm still playing an Adams Fast 12LS, lol.

[golffeen007]

4 minutes ago, Pudgelewis said:

 

He's fabricating the story so he's not innocent and he's not innocent because he's fabricating the story. That seems to be the main hang-up and sounds like circular logic, but I'm not a philosopher and may be using that wrong. What if he's not fabricating the story? I'm saying, MAYBE he's innocent because the head is actually damaged somehow and he's telling the truth and you didn't notice it. Not saying that's the case, but I am saying that refusing to even allow that as an option in your head is a bit perplexing simply because some less-than-stellar photos don't appear to show it and it was 18 days before he contacted you. I doubt it's the kind of thing you would have noticed before shipping it based on the high-res pictures he posted.

 

I'm not even saying you owe him money. I'm just saying it may be a legit issue and your inability to even consider that is making the situation worse. His inability to say maybe you didn't notice it when you sold it and didn't mean any harm by it and his inability (as far as I can recall) to answer the question of why it took so long to hit it the "5 times" when he wanted it for the weekend is making the situation worse.

 

As far as the "cracks" go, I wouldn't expect a crack to be so linear, but I don't know how these new heads are designed and what a crack actually looks like with the materials they're using. I'm still playing an Adams Fast 12LS, lol.

Adams 12ls with the pink bubba steel

tip shaft in 80x, now that turned all the ladies heads! Lol I loved that driver!

 

I would say though , there’s merit to the question of why it took 18 days to report this to the OP. 1 swing or 50. 

[Pudgelewis]

2 minutes ago, golffeen007 said:

Adams 12ls with the pink bubba steel

tip shaft in 80x, now that turned all the ladies heads! Lol I loved that driver!

 

I would say though , there’s merit to the question of why it took 18 days to report this to the OP. 1 swing or 50. 

 I'm afraid of the 4 shafts I have in the 4 different heads (all uncracked), none of them feature the Bubba! That'd be cool, though.

 

I agree that there's merit to it, which is why I mentioned that him not answering the question, that I've seen, is making the issue worse. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to matter a whole lot at this point. The two sides seem pretty stuck in their positions and Paypal will likely sort it out, which I doubt we'll agree is a good outcome, either.

[jblough99]

I don’t think what you are looking at are cracks.  I think it’s just how titanium is that’s not polished smooth, similar to grain in wood.  Below is a brand new Ping G430 head, has the identical linear “marks” in the finish, the darker horizontal lines.  I also had a Paradym Triple Diamond that had similar linear “marks” in the face, also bought brand new.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by jblough99

[NoCalHack]

39 minutes ago, Pudgelewis said:

 

He's fabricating the story so he's not innocent and he's not innocent because he's fabricating the story. That seems to be the main hang-up and sounds like circular logic, but I'm not a philosopher and may be using that wrong. What if he's not fabricating the story? I'm saying, MAYBE he's innocent because the head is actually damaged somehow and he's telling the truth and you didn't notice it. Not saying that's the case, but I am saying that refusing to even allow that as an option in your head is a bit perplexing simply because some less-than-stellar photos don't appear to show it and it was 18 days before he contacted you. I doubt it's the kind of thing you would have noticed before shipping it based on the high-res pictures he posted.

 

I'm not even saying you owe him money. I'm just saying it may be a legit issue and your inability to even consider that is making the situation worse. His inability to say maybe you didn't notice it when you sold it and didn't mean any harm by it and his inability (as far as I can recall) to answer the question of why it took so long to hit it the "5 times" when he wanted it for the weekend is making the situation worse.

 

As far as the "cracks" go, I wouldn't expect a crack to be so linear, but I don't know how these new heads are designed and what a crack actually looks like with the materials they're using. I'm still playing an Adams Fast 12LS, lol.

 

Ok. So maybe I sent him a cracked head and he waited 18 days and hit 5 balls on the course. Then he determined that the ball wasn’t going as far so rather than being his swing or the fit of the club he was convinced it was the club. Then he noticed the lines, which not a single person has indicated looks like cracking, and determined this is evidence of a crack or defective head. And then filed a $200 claim with PayPal even though I sent him a cracked head. 
 

That’s a lot of benefit of the doubt you are giving him. 

If anyone here sold a driver head and the buyer said he doesn’t hit it as far as he should anyone would want some more proof  that the club is defective. No water bubble test. No launch data- everyone here knows you can lose 20+ yards if the launch isn’t optimized. Still no explanation why he wanted the club that weekend and waited 18 days to hit it. 
 

And now some PayPal intern who knows nothing about golf is going to decide by looking at scratches on the face and maybe that PayPal intern thinks. “Well 18 days is still a reasonable because it’s less than 30 days. I can’t 100% know that those aren’t on the original pics. So I guess $200 refund or a return is fair”. Nobody would want someone to take a high res pic of an imperfection of a sold item that they know doesn’t affect play and represent it to paypal as a problem with the purchase. 
 

 

[NoCalHack]

9 minutes ago, jblough99 said:

I don’t think what you are looking at are cracks.  I think it’s just how titanium is that’s not polished smooth, similar to grain in wood.  Below is a brand new Ping G430 head, has the identical linear “marks” in the finish, the darker horizontal lines.  I also had a Paradym Triple Diamond that had similar linear “marks” in the face, also bought brand new.

 

the marks on the club from The buyers pic look like scratches that weren’t from the manufacturing. But they are linear and indented- like something was scraped across the face. And you can clearly see the bottom of the scratches. There’s no openings which you expect if the go through the face.  But they aren’t much deeper than the scoring lines on the face. Those faces are much thicker than the depth of those scratches. 
 

 

[NoCalHack]

2 hours ago, Darom87 said:

260 is still a pretty good drive, no?  Or is it a sin for tour issue heads to go no less than 300?  

 

"Me hit ball far... this go not far."

 

Haha, just josh'in!

 

I would personally like to see the numbers. Maybe he swings 98. I don’t know. But maybe the ball is spinning at 1200 rpm. But he hasn’t even mentioned one word about how the ball is flying. Just repeatedly “I hit 300 and this is going 260”. 

[kcsf]

I don't care how many times you've bought or sold on here, you should know:

 

1. report any issues IMMEDIATELY when you receive the item. 

2. Timing matters. The longer you wait, the less credibility you have.

3. If something is getting returned, it better damn well be in the exact same condition as the sale. 

4. Know thyself. Some people just shouldn't buy used. 

 

After reading through this thread, it sure seems to me the buyer used the club the 18 days, and it doesn't fit him (probably too low spin and the ball falls out of the air). You waited 18 days to report anything and to me the responsibility is now on you and not the seller. Learning moment for all. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by kcsf

[Darom87]

39 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

 

I would personally like to see the numbers. Maybe he swings 98. I don’t know. But maybe the ball is spinning at 1200 rpm. But he hasn’t even mentioned one word about how the ball is flying. Just repeatedly “I hit 300 and this is going 260”. 

"See those mountains over there, I could throw this football over those mountains.."

[zip7111]

35 minutes ago, kcsf said:

I don't care how many times you've bought or sold on here, you should know:

 

1. report any issues IMMEDIATELY when you receive the item. 

2. Timing matters. The longer you wait, the less credibility you have.

3. If something is getting returned, it better damn well be in the exact same condition as the sale. 

4. Know thyself. Some people just shouldn't buy used. 

 

After reading through this thread, it sure seems to me the buyer used the club the 18 days, and it doesn't fit him (probably too low spin and the ball falls out of the air). You waited 18 days to report anything and to me the responsibility is now on you and not the seller. Learning moment for all. 

I agree with all the points you made…but the biggest question is what will someone at PayPal say that has never held a golf club in their life?  Odds are high that the buyer will get some sort of refund be it right or wrong.

[NoCalHack]

16 minutes ago, Darom87 said:

"See those mountains over there, I could throw this football over those mountains.."

 

I’d like to know if he put a ventus black tx into the club, took a few mighty 98 mph lashes with it,  and hit 5 wormburners.  260 would be pretty good. But hey. I guess we will never know. 

[golffeen007]

55 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

 

I’d like to know if he put a ventus black tx into the club, took a few mighty 98 mph lashes with it,  and hit 5 wormburners.  260 would be pretty good. But hey. I guess we will never know. 

Have you reached out to PayPal yourself? I’d call , but you’d have to speak to a US based rep to get anywhere , but at least you have your side vs just seeing what happens. 

Hate to be blunt , but a pile is a pile and this seems like it’s steaming. 
 

I’ve had a couple deals with Chris over the years and everything was peachy as could be, but this story 18 days after delivery has me convinced something else is going on here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoCalHack]

20 minutes ago, golffeen007 said:

Have you reached out to PayPal yourself? I’d call , but you’d have to speak to a US based rep to get anywhere , but at least you have your side vs just seeing what happens. 

Hate to be blunt , but a pile is a pile and this seems like it’s steaming. 
 

I’ve had a couple deals with Chris over the years and everything was peachy as could be, but this story 18 days after delivery has me convinced something else is going on here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s fine. I will see what they say. It’s $200 after all. 
 

I almost feel bad for the him.  Probably bought a club he couldn’t handle, regretted it and then tried to get me over a lousy $200. 

[jrg75]

This thread reminds me why I've all but abandoned selling my used gear.  Sellers have no recourse, PayPal/ebay, etc will always side with the buyer.  An unscrupulous buyer for a mint condition driver can take it out for 30 days, play dozens of rounds, add all kinds of scratches and skymarks, decide it doesn't go as far as they think they hit it (everyone is 300+) and be guaranteed a full refund.  Sad because selling used gear used to be fun and a great way to try products.  Now I pretty much try to commit to new items and use playability guarantees and eventually, stored trade in credit.

Edited July 29, 2023 by jrg75

[Pudgelewis]

3 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

 

Ok. So maybe I sent him a cracked head and he waited 18 days and hit 5 balls on the course. Then he determined that the ball wasn’t going as far so rather than being his swing or the fit of the club he was convinced it was the club. Then he noticed the lines, which not a single person has indicated looks like cracking, and determined this is evidence of a crack or defective head. And then filed a $200 claim with PayPal even though I sent him a cracked head. 
 

That’s a lot of benefit of the doubt you are giving him. 

If anyone here sold a driver head and the buyer said he doesn’t hit it as far as he should anyone would want some more proof  that the club is defective. No water bubble test. No launch data- everyone here knows you can lose 20+ yards if the launch isn’t optimized. Still no explanation why he wanted the club that weekend and waited 18 days to hit it. 
 

And now some PayPal intern who knows nothing about golf is going to decide by looking at scratches on the face and maybe that PayPal intern thinks. “Well 18 days is still a reasonable because it’s less than 30 days. I can’t 100% know that those aren’t on the original pics. So I guess $200 refund or a return is fair”. Nobody would want someone to take a high res pic of an imperfection of a sold item that they know doesn’t affect play and represent it to paypal as a problem with the purchase. 
 

 

400+ feedback with one poor transaction that at least looks like it was handled will buy ya some benefit of the doubt. All I’m saying is at least approach it with the mindset that it could be a possibility and work towards finding out if it’s actually damaged instead of attacking each other. We see where that’s gotten you all. 

 

And your middle paragraph there are questions that I’ve mentioned in my replies that he needs to answer. 
 

If he honestly didn’t think the club was defective, why would he not just relist the club on the BST and get the majority of his money back? That’s typically what we do here and I suspect with the amount of feedback he has it’s not something he has no experience doing. Even if he loses $50 on it it’s easier than going through this goat rodeo. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Pudgelewis

[golfwb]

The buyer isn’t joe blow. 
Might be a 50-50 on this one. 
18 days is a bit much with rush shipping for the weekend. 
But feedback speaks volumes. 

[tatertot]

22 minutes ago, Pudgelewis said:

400+ feedback with one poor transaction that at least looks like it was handled will buy ya some benefit of the doubt. All I’m saying is at least approach it with the mindset that it could be a possibility and work towards finding out if it’s actually damaged instead of attacking each other. We see where that’s gotten you all. 

 

And your middle paragraph there are questions that I’ve mentioned in my replies that he needs to answer. 
 

If he honestly didn’t think the club was defective, why would he not just relist the club on the BST and get the majority of his money back? That’s typically what we do here and I suspect with the amount of feedback he has it’s not something he has no experience doing. Even if he loses $50 on it it’s easier than going through this goat rodeo. 

This ... Honestly, as an impartial observer, if a buyer with this kind of feedback and experience bought a club he can't hit, why not just flip it? Why ask for a paltry $200 and risk his rep?

[crsmith1234]

To as we the 2 week problem. I work in the insurance industry was called out of town for cat claim down south and didn’t get home till  20th then didn’t get to the course till the weekend.  Then reported the problem.  
 

 

[crsmith1234]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

This ... Honestly, as an impartial observer, if a buyer with this kind of feedback and experience bought a club he can't hit, why not just flip it? Why ask for a paltry $200 and risk his rep?

I am not flipping a cracked or dead head so I can get stuck with the tab when it implodes 

Edited July 29, 2023 by crsmith1234

[Avidswampthing66]

7 minutes ago, crsmith1234 said:

To as we the 2 week problem.

This whole thing is 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Avidswampthing66

[straightshot7]

Send the club head to an impartial golfwrx member, to test if it’s actually 30 yards shorter or not. 

 

Using a launch monitor. 
 

I would volunteer but I don’t have any callaway adapter shafts. 
 

 

[NoCalHack]

5 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Send the club head to an impartial golfwrx member, to test if it’s actually 30 yards shorter or not. 

 

Using a launch monitor. 
 

I would volunteer but I don’t have any callaway adapter shafts. 
 

 

 

I am in. Let’s do it. I’ll happily fork over $200 if this happens. I’ll pay for shipping. 

[kcsf]

9 hours ago, crsmith1234 said:

To as we the 2 week problem. I work in the insurance industry was called out of town for cat claim down south and didn’t get home till  20th then didn’t get to the course till the weekend.  Then reported the problem.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by kcsf

[eddiebigeddie]

4 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

 

I am in. Let’s do it. I’ll happily fork over $200 if this happens. I’ll pay for shipping. 

I’m game…I’ll have my son with his 115+ swing speed hit it vs his Rogue Max LS well use his mevo flight scope  😬

Edited July 29, 2023 by eddiebigeddie

[puresurfr]

Count me in as well, to test this head to see if the efficiency is lower than 1.44. I have my own launch monitor and swing anywhere from 103-107.  Im currently playing a Paradym 9* and a 10.5 3D

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

That's what crsmith1234 gets for bombing 300 yard drives when they are really 265 yards. And blames it on the club. 

[NoCalHack]

2 hours ago, puresurfr said:

Count me in as well, to test this head to see if the efficiency is lower than 1.44. I have my own launch monitor and swing anywhere from 103-107.  Im currently playing a Paradym 9* and a 10.5 3D

 

 

I've contended all along this is not about money for me. I just think it's a little crappy to file bogus PayPal claims, nuisance claims like this, hoping to get $200.  As a person in the insurance industry, I'm sure the buyer knows the type of people who file bogus claims over and over and even win a few.   It's a pretty crappy thing to do and costs all of us.  The buyer is probably a little surprised this escalated like this, and hoped PayPal would just settle it one way or another and move on. 

 

As I've said all along, I don't believe the club is cracked, because he hasn't given me any real evidence that it is.  And I still don't believe he hit only 5 balls with it, and still think that if it is cracked, he cracked it.  However, I don't believe the club is cracked at all.

 

This is what I propose.  I think it would be awesome and great entertainment for all.  

 

We pick a wrx member who's a good golfer and actually games a retail Paradym 9 degree 3D, and has access to a launch monitor.  We sent him the clubhead.  I will personally cover shipping costs back and forth (donations welcome if people want to contribute).  He takes careful pictures of the clubhead to verify it hasn't been altered in any way.  We already have hi-res pics of the face.  Then he hits it side by side with his gamer, with matching weight setup.  This would be amazing.  We could post the results in the tour issue forum.

 

If the club is in fact defective, then I will personally issue an apology to the buyer and immediately refund $200.  I STILL don't believe he hit it only 5 times, and I still believe its possible he cracked it himself, but I would honestly feel bad for him if he paid $520 for a tour issue driver and it cracked on him.  So I'd still be happy to cover the $200.

 

Who's in?

 

 

 

 

[straightshot7]

19 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

 

 

I've contended all along this is not about money for me. I just think it's a little crappy to file bogus PayPal claims, nuisance claims like this, hoping to get $200.  As a person in the insurance industry, I'm sure the buyer knows the type of people who file bogus claims over and over and even win a few.   It's a pretty crappy thing to do and costs all of us.  The buyer is probably a little surprised this escalated like this, and hoped PayPal would just settle it one way or another and move on. 

 

As I've said all along, I don't believe the club is cracked, because he hasn't given me any real evidence that it is.  And I still don't believe he hit only 5 balls with it, and still think that if it is cracked, he cracked it.  However, I don't believe the club is cracked at all.

 

This is what I propose.  I think it would be awesome and great entertainment for all.  

 

We pick a wrx member who's a good golfer and actually games a retail Paradym 9 degree 3D, and has access to a launch monitor.  We sent him the clubhead.  I will personally cover shipping costs back and forth (donations welcome if people want to contribute).  He takes careful pictures of the clubhead to verify it hasn't been altered in any way.  We already have hi-res pics of the face.  Then he hits it side by side with his gamer, with matching weight setup.  This would be amazing.  We could post the results in the tour issue forum.

 

If the club is in fact defective, then I will personally issue an apology to the buyer and immediately refund $200.  I STILL don't believe he hit it only 5 times, and I still believe its possible he cracked it himself, but I would honestly feel bad for him if he paid $520 for a tour issue driver and it cracked on him.  So I'd still be happy to cover the $200.

 

Who's in?

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately I have a strong and obvious suspicion that the buyer will not in a million years be going along with this experiment. 

 

He will say something like "No, I'm not risking shipping this head and putting it in someone's else's hands".

 

I wonder if he would want to insure the head for $520 though if he did ship it 😄