Is the PGA Tour at a loss or at a crossroad?

[gvogel]

3 hours ago, Ronnie Mundt said:

Jim Nantz can make anything dull. They need to revamp coverage completely.

I hear Bones is doing the booth chair in Mexico.  Should be interesting.  Maybe it is his tryout to the big leagues.

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

 

People, it's basic economics. CBS/NBC aren't going to show early morning coverage with the players who are out of contention. They have other things they can put on TV that will make them more advertising $$$. Even Golf Channel isn't going to do that--they can show the finish of a DPWT event and won't pick up the coverage until the players in contention are starting to at least tee off. 

 

Understand, though, that you live in an embarrassment of riches compared to past eras of golf coverage. It used to be that only the back 9 on Sunday was ever televised. Now the networks cover both Saturday and Sunday. And Golf Channel on cable adds earlier coverage on the weekend and several hours of Thurs/Fri coverage. And streaming picks up the rest--you get a main feed on ESPN+ for the rest of the playing window AND if you want featured group coverage the rest of the time.

 

I realize you have to make the ridiculously difficult sacrifice of pushing a few buttons on your remote control... But the alternative (you know, the past) was that you didn't have access to this coverage AT ALL. 

 

It's a workable model because the alternative is not making the coverage available at all for times when it's not financially viable for the networks or Golf Channel to show it. 

Both sides have a point. Very true that in the past, outside of Majors, there was literally no means of watching an entire day of play at tournaments on the weekend, let alone all four days. That said, having to add multiple subscriptions and move between apps and channels is annoying, and it's worsened by the coverage moving between different network umbrellas during some of the events. 

 

You're likely right that people will just have to get over it because aside from a full golf broadcast monopoly there's not really a fix. We certainly are lucky to be able to guarantee so much coverage every week of the year, and that even extends to the LPGA as well. If they'd figure out better OnDemand options for DP World, LET, etc., they could capture even more eyes when people want to watch at other times from other devices. 

 

The fact that they're selling packages to even allow the wall-to-wall coverage certainly says the viewership numbers are fine. App availability also does allow featured groups to continue being followed once the main broadcast starts, so if the favorites are there they can be enjoyed without interruption. 

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, jsmil4901 said:

I used to watch every tournament every weekend. Now I tune in once in a while to watch the PGA tour. It was fun watching the best in the world play golf, now we see some of the best in the world. Some of the watchable characters have left and that's a loss for the PGA tour. I tune in more to watch the LPGA now. I find it a better watch than the PGA tour. I look forward to watching the Majors. Maybe they will have a better chance of having stronger fields.

Getting old is interesting, no?

[mosesgolf]

For me just about every week is exciting.  Nick Dunlaps win, W. Clark's 60 and win at Pebble, Waste Management playoff finish between Hoffman & Taylor, and Hideki's majestic final round at iconic Riviera ftw.  It's great stuff.  Last year and previous years were every bit as good.  Plus the PGAT always will have its relationships with the Majors.  IMO PGA Tour is in a fine place and some smart money recently bet some bigtime capital on the future of the PGAT.  PGAT is where legends are made.  The other place meh not so much.  It's about as exciting as the old Skins Game.

Edited February 20 by mosesgolf
Forgot something

[503Mike]

I watch a miniscule fraction of the amount of professional golf I did just 3-4 years ago and am down to basically the Sunday back 9 of the Masters and US Open, and most of The Open Championship. Lack of interest in watching the pro's correlates with increase in of amount of golf I actually play, which I find odd. I do find myself tracking results of players I like, but have little desire to watch the broadcasts.

 

All part of a larger trend for me, personally. The only sports I watch consistently are my alma mater's football games. But I don't watch any other CFB during the season. I'll check scores, but that's about it. I'm probably not alone, but definitely not in the majority.

[betarhoalphadelta]

10 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Both sides have a point. Very true that in the past, outside of Majors, there was literally no means of watching an entire day of play at tournaments on the weekend, let alone all four days. That said, having to add multiple subscriptions and move between apps and channels is annoying, and it's worsened by the coverage moving between different network umbrellas during some of the events. 

 

You're likely right that people will just have to get over it  

 

I just don't get people... We have more golf coverage than we've had in the history of the sport, and somehow people STILL have to find a reason to complain about it. 

 

Everything's amazing and nobody's happy. 

 

 

[naval2006]

I didn’t mean to talk about LIV golf on this thread because there’s a dedicated one to that topic. However, the number of top players gone from the PGA Tour plays against the show I’m afraid. There’s like a dozen of top notch players who are now in a limbo and you do notice their absence on tournament weekends. 
 

Promising figures are fine, but they’ve never been enough for the big show. Organizers and spectators have always wanted Booby Jones, Hogan, Trevino, Snead, Jack, Seve or Tiger. 
 

Breaking up the field has been absolutely detrimental for the golf show . Some of the best golfers in the globe can’t be in the world ranking and pro golf right now is like a dog hound who’s lost the track. 
 

 

[Titleist99]

36 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

I didn’t mean to talk about LIV golf on this thread because there’s a dedicated one to that topic. However, the number of top players gone from the PGA Tour plays against the show I’m afraid. There’s like a dozen of top notch players who are now in a limbo and you do notice their absence on tournament weekends. 
 

Promising figures are fine, but they’ve never been enough for the big show. Organizers and spectators have always wanted Booby Jones, Hogan, Trevino, Snead, Jack, Seve or Tiger. 
 

Breaking up the field has been absolutely detrimental for the golf show . Some of the best golfers in the globe can’t be in the world ranking and pro golf right now is like a dog hound who’s lost the track. 
 

 

I don't miss any of the players that left the Tour. Nice try with your effort to convince me that I do though. The tour is much better with the Purge of Malcontents.

[bcjim]

45 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

I didn’t mean to talk about LIV golf on this thread because there’s a dedicated one to that topic. However, the number of top players gone from the PGA Tour plays against the show I’m afraid. There’s like a dozen of top notch players who are now in a limbo and you do notice their absence on tournament weekends. 
 

Promising figures are fine, but they’ve never been enough for the big show. Organizers and spectators have always wanted Booby Jones, Hogan, Trevino, Snead, Jack, Seve or Tiger. 
 

Breaking up the field has been absolutely detrimental for the golf show . Some of the best golfers in the globe can’t be in the world ranking and pro golf right now is like a dog hound who’s lost the track. 
 

 

Its not ideal but this opinion piece sounds like it was written by someone paid to have an opinion.

 

 

Edited February 20 by bcjim

[GoGoErky]

38 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

I don't miss any of the players that left the Tour. Nice try with your effort to convince me that I do though. The tour is much better with the Purge of Malcontents.

Same. The majority of them that left weren’t ones that would make me take time out of my day to sit down and watch a tournament. If I was going to watch a tournament day I was going to watch regardless of who was playing 

[Titleist99]

22 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Same. The majority of them that left weren’t ones that would make me take time out of my day to sit down and watch a tournament. If I was going to watch a tournament day I was going to watch regardless of who was playing 

100%. I tune in for the drama and build up excitement on the back nine come Sunday.

Big names on Sunday are great, If not I'm good with a good battle. Big name players don't play every week.....

 

Take the tournament at Riviera, I'm not a big Hideki fan but he played great on Sunday and I'm happy for him.....I was thoroughly entertained.

 

never once did I have a second thought of who wasn't there.

[KennyP]

It seems to me the more money gets poured into it, the less entertaining it gets. Maybe it's just coincidence.

[Dutch1008]

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

There’s like a dozen of top notch players who are now in a limbo and you do notice their absence on tournament weekends. 

 

Honest question but who are the dozen? 

 

My list is pretty simple, Rahm, Brooks, DJ, Cam, Bryson. 

 

In the honorable mention category I'd include Nieman, Hatton, and maybe Gooch. 

 

Who else is really missed? Phil's a legend but plays far more bad golf than good golf these days. Most of the rest are either way past their prime or mid-tier / back-tier tour guys. 

 

I agree with the premise that Torrey, Phx, Pebble, and Riv would have been a bit more interesting with the 5 guys i mentioned up top. But the rest of the LIV roster does nothing for me. 

[woahnelly]

I don't get how fans (still) complain about the top players leaving, when the PGA has had all exciting events to start the year. There is no Tiger anymore, so the names are interchangable as whoever is playing well. Id rather watch prime 39 y/o Luke List pipe bombs down the fairway over a struggling JT, but I'm probably in the minority.

 

Most new or casual fans will see unrecognizable names on the leaderboard and turn off the tube instead of watching the sport being played at its highest level, which reflects more on them vs the product. 

 

[NV825]

2 hours ago, dono said:

FYI, at LIV the field and the Teams get paid out of a $20M purse every time they tee it up. Nobody "coasts" for a ~$4M payday. 

 

The team earns the money, and they are now on the hook for all of the operating costs associated with them like travel, marketing (😂), and more.

+

Each captain was said to have received a 25% stake and the PIF holds the remaining 75%. I wonder who controls the purse strings in this structure?

+

It is yet to be independently verified that the winnings by each player are not included in their already agreed-upon contracted payments from the PIF. 

=

0.00% chance each player is making ~$4M for a team win. They probably make a nice bonus, unless that last part above is true in which it's already factored into their contracted payments.

 

Not to mention, if the whole idea is to build each team into entities that are worth investing in by outsiders, then why wouldn't they try to showcase a net profit so that they can expect an ROI?

[RSLP]

From a business side I think a crossroad, as we will have to see how well the PGA Tour Enterprise (new for profit entity) performs.  No loss on the future player pool, as the college players seem to adapt quickly to the rigours of professional sports and win early on the big show.

[bcjim]

4 minutes ago, NV825 said:

 

The team earns the money, and they are now on the hook for all of the operating costs associated with them like travel, marketing (😂), and more.

+

Each captain was said to have received a 25% stake and the PIF holds the remaining 75%. I wonder who controls the purse strings in this structure?

+

It is yet to be independently verified that the winnings by each player are not included in their already agreed-upon contracted payments from the PIF. 

=

0.00% chance each player is making ~$4M for a team win. They probably make a nice bonus, unless that last part above is true in which it's already factored into their contracted payments.

 

Not to mention, if the whole idea is to build each team into entities that are worth investing in by outsiders, then why wouldn't they try to showcase a net profit so that they can expect an ROI?

I think the players get basically 10% of the team winning for the week and only a few teams get any money. Top 3, I think?  The team bit is really pointless. 42/54 players get no team $ each week if I understand correctly.

[PJE]

I love golf. 
But aside from the final rounds of the majors, it’s always been kind of boring to watch.  It’s generally not dynamic. There is a reason NFL football, NCAA football, the NBA, and NCAA basketball rule the airwaves. 
Golf sometimes has compelling storylines e.g., Woods’ extended mastery, decline, and comebacks; Norman’s star crossed major performances, but most of that stuff happens or happened in the majors. 
Players, broadcasters, money have less to do with interest than the stage on which golf is presented- the tournament. And for it to interesting to a large group of people it has to be a major and not the weekly tournament. I don't think the other league despite teams, shotgun starts, and music provides anything which is more compelling than the weekly Tour presentation. 
Major League Baseball has a similar problem as golf. It has an endless run of boring games until the playoffs. Tennis is like golf as well; it’s a niche sport with enhanced exposure when its crown jewel-Wimbledon- is played.
I think the Tour is doing well given the number of people who actually play golf or who have more than a cursory interest in golf versus the total population of non golfers or disinterested people. 

Some analysts do a really good job explaining the challenges inherent in a particular shot in the run of the mill tournaments. I think that helps the Tour. 
PS I also don’t think the  people who don’t like the LIV on this forum are a “…woke mob…”; they just don’t like the LIV. 

Edited February 21 by PJE

[jdl]

9 hours ago, bcjim said:

Ridiculous hit piece.  Reeks of thinly veiled liv propaganda. 

 

It's basically the opposite of reality. 

 

 

 

Hmm, not sure on that. Joel has been pretty anti-LIV from what I've seen.

 

8 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

I personally think there is a major change that has to take place. The Tiger Woods days are over as much as I hate to admit it. The viewing format for the PFA on TV absolutely STINKS! Nothing is more frustrating to me than to be watching a broadcast and right in the middle of coverage being told that I have to go to another service to finish watching! Imagine watching the Indy 500 and ar lap 300 seeing a message telling you to go to another network to see the rest of the race! 
 

Heck, if I am using a PAY service to watch and STILL have to watch commercials, why cNt they at least show the entire event there? It’s an absolutely idiotic format IMO. 
 

And for some reason there is a current fixation with Rory. Even when he is playing horridly he gets more face-time than other players doing better and ranked higher. 
 

I simply don’t get the decision-making processes there. 

 

6 hours ago, ksher84 said:

My biggest gripe with watching PGA is that it's annoying to have to hop from app to app/channel to channel to watch

 

6 hours ago, shankasaurus rex said:

Fix the channel hopping and you fix the PGA's biggest issue. Absolutely insane that anyone thinks that's a workable model.

 

I admit I'm baffled at this complaint. For the primary coverage, it's the same as it's been for a long time. Golf Channel on Th/Fr afternoon, then on the weekend, GC from 12-3 and then over to CBS or NBC. If there was some kind of weather delay then you might have to go back over to GC if the NBC/CBS slot ends.

 

The early morning coverage moved from NBC Sports app over to ESPN+

 

I know NBC wants to get some content over to Peacock and sure that's an annoyance that I've been dealing with as a Big Ten sports fan but it's not really hit too hard for golf so far. But that will probably start to crop up more for sports in general and yes it is indeed annoying having to use apps, there will need to be some kind of bundling front end to allow easier switching between those apps.

[m d g]

I miss a lot of the LIV players, but their product is unwatchable.

 

It's as if you gave the local high school AV club $500 and told them to cover a golf tournament.

 

It is cringe-level bad...

[dono]

1 hour ago, NV825 said:

0.00% chance each player is making ~$4M for a team win. They probably make a nice bonus, unless that last part above is true in which it's already factored into their contracted payments.

OK you are incapable of looking up these FACTS yourself. Here are the  payout.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/2024-liv-golf-league-mayakoba-prize-money-payout-each-golfer-purse

 

Edited February 20 by dono

[NV825]

27 minutes ago, dono said:

OK you are incapable of looking up these FACTS yourself. Here are the  payout.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/2024-liv-golf-league-mayakoba-prize-money-payout-each-golfer-purse

 

 

Nevermind, keep enjoying LIV and the amazing team experience.

Edited February 20 by NV825

[hunterdog]

8 hours ago, bcjim said:

In any given week at anytime, "top players" are missing, trunk slamming, finishing T52, whatever.  Legitimate competition is infinitely preferable to a contrived match between only "top players".

Absolutely agree. GD and posters here want events where only the celebrity players contend - not so much that the players who have the better scores are at the top of the leader board. I think LIV wants to construct a league with famous/celebrity golfers, some are still competitive and some not so much anymore. Some viewers may want to be sure that the  famous/celebrity golfers are the winners and some viewers may want to so see the best golfer that week win. 

[Dutch1008]

43 minutes ago, dono said:

OK you are incapable of looking up these FACTS yourself. Here are the  payout.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/2024-liv-golf-league-mayakoba-prize-money-payout-each-golfer-purse

 

🤣 You may want to do a touch more research on your FACTS

 

From Palm Beach Post on LIV...

 

"The only hard number we know of right now is the prize money. Of the $25 million LIV pays out for each event, $5 million goes to the top three teams. The winning team receives $3 million, second place $1.5 million and third place $500,000. Last season, that prize money was divided by four and given to each team member. This year it goes into the team account."

 

Year 1 it was evenly split for players. Starting in year 2, ol' MBS started to tighten the purse strings and no longer covered all of the expenses for the teams. Now they get a stipend that will be reducing every year. Since that time that team winnings go to the team account and fund any operating cost shortfall with only profits are being distributed. 

 

So yeah, Legion XIII got $3M at Mayakoba but that doesn't mean Rahm and his teammates each pocketed $750k. 

[dono]

4 minutes ago, NV825 said:

 

Nevermind, keep enjoying LIV and the amazing team experience.

I am NOT a LIV fan boy. I am interested in FACTUAL representation of the data, not misrepresentation of the format of the LIV league . Some are biased and incapable of understanding change. The game is over. There will some alliances.

[NV825]

20 minutes ago, dono said:

I am NOT a LIV fan boy. I am interested in FACTUAL representation of the data, not misrepresentation of the format of the LIV league . Some are biased and incapable of understanding change. The game is over. There will some alliances.

 

You decided to ignore the entire other portion of my post on why the team earnings would not be going to only the players. They have overhead costs to manage now after MBS weened them off the teet, and if they are truly serious about bringing outside investors to buy into a team, then they sure as hell better show that the team is making a sizable profit for potential ROI. 

Edited February 20 by NV825

[naval2006]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I don't miss any of the players that left the Tour. Nice try with your effort to convince me that I do though. The tour is much better with the Purge of Malcontents.

If you take my comment as an effort to convince someone you should read it twice. I don’t care about pro golf enough to convince anyone. But I hadn’t realized until now how touchy a lot of people are with the LIV golf. Now I do but still I don’t care. In my country LIV golf isn’t even broadcast so most of the stuff members of the forum discuss, I don’t have background to chime in. It’s never been my intention to be offensive, especially in a sub forum where I hardly participate. Anyway if some golf fan opinions are taken as paid comments or something of the sort it’s up to the reader. I’ve been around in this forum for quite a while and anyone can read all my posts to decide if I’m a propagandist or just a keen golfer. 

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

7 hours ago, One Putter said:

Even if everything happened exactly the way you wanted, you'd still find something to whine about, because that's just how people like you are. You contribute nothing yet whine about everything.

Lmao! This is my point. The mods do nothing about people like this, that go out of their way to cause problems, but punish honest people who actually contribute facts. 
 

It is what it is!  

[LeoLeo99]

2 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Honest question but who are the dozen? 

 

My list is pretty simple, Rahm, Brooks, DJ, Cam, Bryson. 

 

In the honorable mention category I'd include Nieman, Hatton, and maybe Gooch. 

 

Who else is really missed? Phil's a legend but plays far more bad golf than good golf these days. Most of the rest are either way past their prime or mid-tier / back-tier tour guys. 

 

I agree with the premise that Torrey, Phx, Pebble, and Riv would have been a bit more interesting with the 5 guys i mentioned up top. But the rest of the LIV roster does nothing for me. 

Reed, Bubba, Sergio, Louis, Na, Phil... I'd rather see Phil playing Phil golf than Nick Taylor play good boring golf.  Yeah, they're past their primes.  So am I.  

[Dutch1008]

10 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

Absolutely agree. GD and posters here want events where only the celebrity players contend - not so much that the players who have the better scores are at the top of the leader board. I think LIV wants to construct a league with famous/celebrity golfers, some are still competitive and some not so much anymore. Some viewers may want to be sure that the  famous/celebrity golfers are the winners and some viewers may want to so see the best golfer that week win. 

 

There are shades of gray here. The occasional underdog story is fun and speaks volumes about the depth of talent on tour but the fact is, more people are going to watch the majors than RIv, and more people will watch Riv vs the Mexico Open. Great golf will happen at each event but field strength and interest will be stronger at the majors and designated events. 

 

All sports work this way. Mahomes vs Josh Allen on Sunday night is going to get more viewers than Titans v Panthers at 10am. Lebron v Curry is going to get the xmas day slot. Not Wizards vs Grizzles. That doesn't mean you won't see entertaining football in the Titans game or amazing plays in the Wizards game. There are still high end players in those games. Think of tennis. 10 years ago I wanted Federer v Nadal in every final. 5 years ago I wanted Novak v Nadal in every final. Now I want Novak v Alcaraz in every final. If one fails to reach the final, it's just a bit underwhelming. Could still be great tennis and an interesting story, it's just not the mythical heavyweight title fight I hope to see.  

 

For me at least, I don't really care about celebrity, I care about talent. I don't need more Tiger and Phil. When they pop up, its fun for nostalgic purposes, but neither is among the best players on the planet today. I want to see Rahm vs Rory, Brooks vs Scottie, etc. In general I want to see the guys in their prime, at the top of their game, square off in the final pairing. I want updated renditions of the Duel in the Sun or Stenson vs Mickelson at the Open. Stars in their prime trading haymakers. If that's not on the menu, I want to see the up and comers like Aberg lay the groundwork to be that next star. If I can't get either, sure, sign me up for a comeback or journeyman story.

 

At the end of each tournament, the best guy that week always wins. Some weeks just tell more interesting stories than others.