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My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

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Comments

  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    rxk9fan wrote:


    Funny to me how bad/mediocre players can all benefit from a GI or SGI and should consider nothing else. Many really good players or low single digits who use blades are thought to just be SO good that they can use inferior technology and survive.

    I believe that a lot of better players are better because they use their blades to their advantage when an SGI would make shots nearly impossible. Watch a good player for a round and see how many shots are recovery shots under limbs, around trees, etc.. How many fairways is the mediocre player going to hit? How many times are they going to have to try to come out of trees, under/around branches, etc.? Then they just can't keep that SGI under the limbs, they never learn to salvage a par with a low cut under branches or a rolling hook from trouble on the left. Nope, I see them hit their long, high, and straight SGI right into the trouble and then they do it again or they finally chip sideways into the fairway to finish double or triple bogey.

    Maybe if you play easy course with no trees you will never have to work a ball? Or make you drive the ball so straight you are never in trouble? If that is the case I get using a club that only wants to go long and high.


    I think there are a couple of things. First, most modern courses (even the ones the pros play) have very few obstacles that absolutely require someone to bend the ball 10 yards+ a lot. Sure, some approach shots would benefit if you can truly work the ball both way. But most courses seem to have forced carries/hazards as the defenses, and there aren't a lot of situations where high, straight, and landing softly won't work. In contrast, a lot of older courses had greens that were cutoff by trees if you weren't in the correct half of the fairway. Bottom line, I don't think the tendency for straight shots these days is simply determined by whether the course you play is hard or easy.



    Second, everything with clubs is a trade-off. Pros and some extremely good amateurs would be worse off with a GI/SGI for the reasons you mention (and other features of the club). But the average golfer isn't hitting low cuts or running hooks as recovery shots on to the green anything more than lottery odds anyways. If they are in the trees, they should aim 10-20 feet left/right of what they think is the safest line and just get the ball back in play. I think you need to play the percentages and give them a club that's easier to hit the 4 times they can place the ball on a tee and the few times they are in the middle of the fairway.



    Others have said it above, but I don't think the average golfer can truly work the ball both ways. I know I can't, and just playing with different people over the years I'd say that the vast majority of people at my level +/- 3 shots can't either. My natural shot shape is a fade. I try to hit everything straight because if I start hitting fades it usually brings in past (i.e. natural) swing flaws that become worse and worse in the longer clubs. That said, I think I can hit a 5-10 yard fade reasonably consistently if needed. Can I hit a draw? If I'm behind a tree on a par 5, I can try to hit a draw for my second shot. Sometimes it comes out perfect and runs down the fairway. A bunch of other times it blocked in the right rough or overcooked into the left rough. Take the 18th hole at Doral. Can I consistently start the ball at the bunker and draw it back to the back left pin? No way. I'll be in the bunker or water more times than not. I.e. even though I can turn the ball over from time to time, I can't really work the ball both ways.
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • mantanmantan Advanced Members Posts: 2,478 ✭✭
    Andus wrote:

    mantan wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:


    Interesting to me is what is considered the definition of a "good ball striker"?



    I think a lot of recreational players simply define it as someone who hits a decent amount of solidly struck shots.



    That may not be entirely inaccurate, but I think most Tour pros would define a good ball striker as a player who hits >65% of GIRs and has control of his golf ball...trajectory, shot shape, and precise distances.




    That's my thought as well. It's funny how the definition changes the better you get. I've seen SO many posts over the years by mid-handicappers who claim they are 'good ballstrikers' and by single digit guys who say they 'aren't great ballstrikers.'



    As a midcapper usually defines a good ballstriker is someone who hits solid shots on a consistent basis. To a single digit and below, that's usually a given. It's more question of how you can consistently hit precise distances, be able to take a little off or give a little extra on a shot. It's being able to control trajectory high and low whenever you want and the ability to work the ball. Not calling pulling a shot and calling it a draw or reverting back to a slice and calling it a fade, but truly work the ball a set amount in every direction and doing it on the course....not 1 out of 4 tries at the range.
    When I say I consider myself a good ball striker, I'm saying that comparatively to another mid handicap player. I think my mid and long game is better than average for my cap, but my short game is worse than average... If that makes sense. My mishit is generally thin, and sometimes fat, but not very often toe and very rarely if ever a heel shot. Thin or fat shots are going to suck regardless of iron/club choice... Again, just my opinion.






    That makes sense. I guess when people don't hear the qualifier, it sounds like you're talking about in general.



    I totally get having a long game that is better than your handicap. At my club I get paired with a lot of different people in league. I can hold my own in driving distance with 90% of the guys out there and outdrive them on at least a few holes.



    The biggest difference between my game in their game is consistency. Good players almost always keep it in play off the tee and have a shot at getting on in regulation. The big difference is short game. According to Grint statistics, most single digit handicap players are still hitting less than 50% of greens in regulation. The difference is they are usually around the green and have the short game to get up and down consistently.



    If I had a choice between being as great iron player with an average short game or an average iron player with a great short game, I'd take the great short game every single time.
    WITB (as of 2/7/19)
    PING G400 Max 10.5*
    PING G400 5-Wood
    PING G25 20* Hybrid
    PING G25 23* Hybrid
    Srixon Z565 5-AW
    PING Stealth ES Glide 54*
    PING Glide ES 58*
    Odyssey O-Works 7s
    Callaway Chrome Soft TruVis
  • avguyavguy Replacement Player Advanced Members Posts: 1,045 ✭✭
    rxk9fan wrote:


    Funny to me how bad/mediocre players can all benefit from a GI or SGI and should consider nothing else. Many really good players or low single digits who use blades are thought to just be SO good that they can use inferior technology and survive.

    I believe that a lot of better players are better because they use their blades to their advantage when an SGI would make shots nearly impossible. Watch a good player for a round and see how many shots are recovery shots under limbs, around trees, etc.. How many fairways is the mediocre player going to hit? How many times are they going to have to try to come out of trees, under/around branches, etc.? Then they just can't keep that SGI under the limbs, they never learn to salvage a par with a low cut under branches or a rolling hook from trouble on the left. Nope, I see them hit their long, high, and straight SGI right into the trouble and then they do it again or they finally chip sideways into the fairway to finish double or triple bogey.

    Maybe if you play easy course with no trees you will never have to work a ball? Or make you drive the ball so straight you are never in trouble? If that is the case I get using a club that only wants to go long and high.




    Not to derail the thread & it's uniqueness, but just noticing bag sigs like yours and agolf1 and I really like those shaft choices......One very peculiar factor of golf equipment choices I see so much on WRX is shafts in sets that are the same as Tour Pros - Super Heavy X-Flex Steel!



    Good Lord, no wonder so many golfers eventually get injured or have to back down their iron class when they go with Reebar for shafts! Of course, we have many single HC players on board whom handle that category, but comparing to the LPGA swings and bags is where I can still feel pretty he-man myself.... image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    BAG ONE:
    D-Titleist 917 D2  or 910 D2
    3-TM RBZ ts
    H-Titleist 915 H1 17, Titleist 816  H1 21, Bridgestone Precept ECU 25
    I - TM M5 5-PW
    W- Mizuno 52, Vokey SM6 58
    P-Bellum Winmore Midi  787
    BAG TWO:
    D-Srixon Z355 
    3-TM R11ti
    H-TM 2.0 SF 18 & 21, Cobra AC 25
    I - TM P790 5-PW
    W- Mizuno 53, & 58
    P-Guerin TS Black 370
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    Andus wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:


    You definitely have more speed than a typical 15 handicap (not disputing what you are saying). But how many greens do you usually hit per round?
    Pretty tall, and younger so speed isn't the issue. And eventually, I hit all of the greens... lol but honestly, probably 6-7GIR. If I hit the GIR I can usually make par, but if it includes a chip on to the green, I usually will chip and 2 putt. That's what I hope to do, sadly.


    According to this article, if you hit 6-7 greens than you are above average for your handicap. Last season I averaged 5 GIR, which is on the lower side for my index level (my driver is quite erratic and bad tee shots take me out of any chance to hit the green a couple/few times per round. However, I don't know if my drives do this more than others at my level).

    https://****.com/2016-report-overall-golfer-performance-by-handicap/



    But take this as a sanity / reality check. If your handicap is 15, I'm guessing with the slope and how the handicap system works (just averaging the better scores) that your average score is about 93 or 21 over par. If you get 6 pars per round (from greens hit), that means you would need to be 21 over on the remaining 12 holes. Not factoring in penalty shots, this would imply that more often than not you either a) miss the green with your third shot (shorter approach after bad drive, pitch, chip, etc) and/or b) 3-putt a majority of the time. I.e. 3 on and 3 putts for double (Par 4) or 4 on and 2 putts for double (Par 4).



    If all of the above was true, I'm not sure what causes the 3-putt frequency when not on in regulation vs. when you hit the green. If it is truly bad pitching, chipping, it should be relatively easy for you to improve a lot if you just spend some time here.
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • IamMarkMacIamMarkMac Advanced Members Posts: 519 ✭✭
    mantan wrote:




    If I had a choice between being as great iron player with an average short game or an average iron player with a great short game, I'd take the great short game every single time.




    Just wondering how you define this. In my mind, a great iron player is someone who hits a lot of greens in regulation (with a lot of chances for birdie) and, when he's not on the green, doesn't need a super short game to save par or won't do any worse than a bogey.



    I've played with a lot of average iron players with great short games and their problem is that the great short game is there because you're often in trouble and trying to save par. Eventually, all that scrambling will catch up with you and your score blows up.



    If this is the case, I'd take the great iron game every time.
    Ping G400 LST 10
    Ping G400 3W 14.5
    Ping G400 3H 19
    Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro
    Mizuno s18 50, 54, 58
    Bettinardi BB1
  • dmeeksDCdmeeksDC ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 2,088 ClubWRX
    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can’t recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, “You’re bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme.”



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.
    Ping G400 9 degrees, Ping Tour stiff shaft, 65 grams
    Callaway XHot2 Pro 5 wood, 17 degrees, Aldila Tour Blue stiff shaft
    Titleist 915F fairway, 21 degrees, Diamana Blue 70 stiff
    Srixon 565 4 iron, Nippon 980GH stiff shaft
    Adams CMB irons, 5-PW, KBS C Taper regular shafts (110g)
    Titleist Vokey SM7 50 degree, F grind, Dynamic Gold S200 shaft
    Callaway Mack Daddy 2 54-degree wedge, S grind, DG wedge shaft
    Ben Hogan TK wedge, 59 degree, KBS black wedge shaft
    TaylorMade TP Chaska putter, sliver, 34 inches
  • knackersknackers Members Posts: 7
    It is the bit like the person that buys a new putter thinks they automatically become a better putter, but it was the constant use of the new putter that was the case. I started out with player CB irons which friends said if you have really good hand-eye coordination Super GI clubs are pointless and you would notice and learn quicker from the feedback of miss-hits of a players CB.

    Blades main value is the workability and feel of the club. So What are the reasons for within 50 wedge shots thinning/fatting? or is it controlling distance ?, Not knowing your yardages is problematic and what makes it worse with short irons is not constantly finding the middle if that were the case. Some people might be umm and arring because when someone isn't got for some reason which in your case is practice in others it's that faults in the swing become more apparent in shorter irons. Player CB irons shouldn't be overlooked and would be easier to learn how to shape the ball because it is harder with a CB to shape compared to a Blade therefore more forgiving and it is always the second shot that hurts people out of a tight lie it would be better for a CB than a blade for consistency.

    Also Food for thought does a player that tries to hit straight find more fairways than a person that fades or draws the ball?
  • bodhi555bodhi555 Advanced Members Posts: 664 ✭✭
    dmeeksDC wrote:


    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can't recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, "You're bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme."



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.




    I think this is the best advice so far to be honest. OP I was in a similar situation to you when I got my first set of Blades, back in 2004 when I got fed up of ho'ing around the latest set of CB's/GI's with very little improvement in my scores, so I thought that year I'd buy a set of blades and see how I got on. I found a set of the mythical blades that Nike had recently released (they were like gold dust in the UK), tried them out, found them much easier to hit than legend would suggest so bought them and put them straight into play. At that point I played off 12, 2 seasons later I was off 7 for one simple reason - they made me practice. There was an element of wanting to improve my ball striking, but to be honest, most of the time I just wanted to go and hit some iron shots.



    I sort of stagnated after that as real life meant game time was limited, hovering between 8 and 10 depending on how my swing was holding together. However I started a course of lessons 2 years ago, just one a month to work on various parts of swinging a golf club i was getting wrong (overswing, then coming over the top and flicking through impact), so I could rely less on good timing and hand-eye co ordination and more on good mechanics and rotation. But along with this we worked on the short game, and now most of my practice is 100 yards and in, and it's having the most impact on my scores. I went from playing to my handicap when the planets aligned to consistently scoring around 80, with a few forays into the low 70's.



    Yet interestingly at no point during this process did my coach suggest I move away from the MB's I'm currently playing, despite the fact he owned the golf shop attached to the range we work at. He didn't see that any of my mishits would benefit from more help, and I'd lose a lot of flexibility in the work we were doing around trajectory control. If you play at a typical tree or gorse lined course in the UK, the need to shape a shot round, over or under an obstacle tends to arise quite frequently.



    tl:dr stick with the blades and get some short game lessons image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    The Blue Thunder: Nike Vapor Fly - 9.5 degree - Speeder Evolution 757X
    The Stenson: Nike Vapor Fly 3W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    The Fairway Finder: Nike Vapor Fly Pro 2 Iron - KBS C-Taper 120S Shaft
    The Blades: Nike VR Pro 4i - PW - DG S400 TI Shaft
    The Rusties: Nike Engage 50, 54 Square Sole, 58 Toe Sweep
    The Putter: Scotty Cameron California Del Mar - 34"
    Balls: Nike RZN Tour Black/Platinum, Bridgestone Tour B XS, Titleist AVX
    Bag: Sun Mountain Four Five

    Also in Rotation:

    Spare Driver: Nike Covert Tour - Kuro Kage 60X
    Fairway Woods: Nike Vapor Fly 5W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    Putters: Yonex Super A.D.X Tour Forged / Scotty Cameron Newport Oil Can / Hogan Radial P51
  • bub72ckbub72ck Advanced Members Posts: 2,439 ✭✭
    Golf is the same at every level, it's just the margins get smaller and expectations get higher. A 15 handicapper is averaging 7 GIR and trying to get to 10. A scratch is averaging 14 GIR and trying to get to 16. Doesn't sound like much but 2 additional GIR on average is huge for scoring.



    I personally don't think good ball striking has much at all to do with working the ball. That's an idea that mid and high handicap players think you have to develop to be good and it's just not true. My goal, and the dozens of other scratch players I've had in groups over the years, is to find a consistent shot shape and practice that until it's routine and trusted. For me it's a fade with the woods and a draw with the irons. My clubs are set up to encourage that ball flight. Can i draw a driver or fade and iron? Yes, but not that well and its only attempted when I have no other choice. I am looking to find my trusted shot as much as possible. My home course has very small greens so accuracy is a premium. I'm not checking wind and playing shots to "ride against" the wind or any of that ****. If the shot fits my profile I am more aggressive, and if not, I'm looking for the middle of the green. I have personally never seen a reason at my ability to complicate the game any more than it needs to be.
    Titleist TS3 9.5* Diamana S+ X
    Taylormade HFS Diamana Blue 83X
    Taylormade Rescue 09 TP Aldila XVS9
    Titleist 714 AP2 TT DGX100 4-PW
    Vokey SM5 50*, 54* and 60* TT DGS400
    SIK Pro Custom
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    bodhi555 wrote:

    dmeeksDC wrote:


    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can't recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, "You're bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme."



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.




    I think this is the best advice so far to be honest. OP I was in a similar situation to you when I got my first set of Blades, back in 2004 when I got fed up of ho'ing around the latest set of CB's/GI's with very little improvement in my scores, so I thought that year I'd buy a set of blades and see how I got on. I found a set of the mythical blades that Nike had recently released (they were like gold dust in the UK), tried them out, found them much easier to hit than legend would suggest so bought them and put them straight into play. At that point I played off 12, 2 seasons later I was off 7 for one simple reason - they made me practice. There was an element of wanting to improve my ball striking, but to be honest, most of the time I just wanted to go and hit some iron shots.



    I sort of stagnated after that as real life meant game time was limited, hovering between 8 and 10 depending on how my swing was holding together. However I started a course of lessons 2 years ago, just one a month to work on various parts of swinging a golf club i was getting wrong (overswing, then coming over the top and flicking through impact), so I could rely less on good timing and hand-eye co ordination and more on good mechanics and rotation. But along with this we worked on the short game, and now most of my practice is 100 yards and in, and it's having the most impact on my scores. I went from playing to my handicap when the planets aligned to consistently scoring around 80, with a few forays into the low 70's.



    Yet interestingly at no point during this process did my coach suggest I move away from the MB's I'm currently playing, despite the fact he owned the golf shop attached to the range we work at. He didn't see that any of my mishits would benefit from more help, and I'd lose a lot of flexibility in the work we were doing around trajectory control. If you play at a typical tree or gorse lined course in the UK, the need to shape a shot round, over or under an obstacle tends to arise quite frequently.



    tl:dr stick with the blades and get some short game lessons image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    There's no doubt that big changes in short game will do more than blades vs. GI/SGI. In the OP's case, either he really isn't hitting 6-7 greens a round consistently or there is easily 5-10 shots he can cut in 1/2 a season just by playing some very basic pitch / chip shots (I'm not talking becoming the next Mickelson) and keeping 3 putts to a controllable level.



    I can't comment on the type of course you play and what benefits a blade brings. But I think you are not giving enough credit to practicing more and improving mechanics for your better scores (obviously anyone will get better if they do these two things, and I don't know why one can't do this with any clubs). The question is whether there's another shot or two out there from playing an different iron that saves a few marginal swings or gets you 10 feet closer to the hole a few times a round.



    I don't dispute that GI/SGI actually work worse for some golfers. But pros are playing long irons with tons of help (you think they can't practice hitting an MB 2-4 iron better) and there's a +3 handicap in another thread trying to save a shot with a more forgiving club (Henrik Stenson would agree with him). Yet there's 6-12 handicaps everywhere that insist the clubs make no difference on mishits, they hit the ball great, and they need to work the ball up / down, left / right, and probably back and forth in the same shot.



    Gotta think the 6-12 guys are overestimating their ability and true results just a bit.
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Advanced Members Posts: 3,327 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    Andus wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    Andus wrote:

    mantan wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:


    Interesting to me is what is considered the definition of a "good ball striker"?



    I think a lot of recreational players simply define it as someone who hits a decent amount of solidly struck shots.



    That may not be entirely inaccurate, but I think most Tour pros would define a good ball striker as a player who hits >65% of GIRs and has control of his golf ball...trajectory, shot shape, and precise distances.




    That's my thought as well. It's funny how the definition changes the better you get. I've seen SO many posts over the years by mid-handicappers who claim they are 'good ballstrikers' and by single digit guys who say they 'aren't great ballstrikers.'



    As a midcapper usually defines a good ballstriker is someone who hits solid shots on a consistent basis. To a single digit and below, that's usually a given. It's more question of how you can consistently hit precise distances, be able to take a little off or give a little extra on a shot. It's being able to control trajectory high and low whenever you want and the ability to work the ball. Not calling pulling a shot and calling it a draw or reverting back to a slice and calling it a fade, but truly work the ball a set amount in every direction and doing it on the course....not 1 out of 4 tries at the range.
    When I say I consider myself a good ball striker, I'm saying that comparatively to another mid handicap player. I think my mid and long game is better than average for my cap, but my short game is worse than average... If that makes sense. My mishit is generally thin, and sometimes fat, but not very often toe and very rarely if ever a heel shot. Thin or fat shots are going to suck regardless of iron/club choice... Again, just my opinion.


    You definitely have more speed than a typical 15 handicap (not disputing what you are saying). But how many greens do you usually hit per round?
    Pretty tall, and younger so speed isn't the issue. And eventually, I hit all of the greens... lol but honestly, probably 6-7GIR. If I hit the GIR I can usually make par, but if it includes a chip on to the green, I usually will chip and 2 putt. That's what I hope to do, sadly.




    95-GIRX2. No offense, but if you hit 6-7 GIR the problem is not your short game. For a 15, on those numbers, your short game is adding about 5 shots per round off a perfect short game (rough, depends on course and slope ratings, but its still the same point). A tour pro (who hits just below 12 on average and gets up and down around 67% of the time) the short game is adding around 2-4 per round off a perfect short game.



    Here's how the cycle goes: Driver somewhere decent or bad. Iron shot to somewhere screwed. Short game shot duffed, because it was a super-hard short game shot, because you didn't miss in the right spot to make the short game shot easy. Blame short game shot because it happened last. Tell WRX you are a 15 because of your short game.



    Short game is incredibly dependent on your long-game ability to leave easy short game shots. If there is a horrible, deep, thin-sand bunker short-sided on the right and it never enters my head to aim left and release hard to make sure there isn't a block (long game skill) and you end up in it, you'll blow the incredibly hard sand shot and then b*tch that you "can't hit out of bunkers" when any OK long game player never would have sniffed that bunker on the approach. Normally a 15 cap who says its due to their short game really means "i hit the ball hard, but I can't think or control it very well".



    Good short game players are great course managers, they're not just pulling off seven circus shots a round. This whole conversation is nonsensical. You can be a five or a six because of short game but there is zero chance you are a 15 because of it.
    Nike SQ Lucky 13* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 X-Flex, 43.5"
    Adams Super LS XTD 15* & 19* Kuro Kage stiff
    Bridgestone j40 DPC 4-PW s300
    Vokey SM6 50* & 55*
    PM Grind 64*
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Advanced Members Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    I think it goes without saying that people can shop for and play whatever they want because at the end of the day it's just a hobby for 99.9% of us. In general I think the experience is good, too.



    I've played full sets of blades from Titleist, Nike and Mizuno, but my favorite two sets of all-time aren't blades, they're the MP-64 and my current 716 CB.



    There were certain features of blades I didn't like. For instance, I couldn't elevate the 4-6 as high as I wanted on particular approaches and that never really went away. I felt those clubs made the game unnecessarily hard. And I couldn't help but notice near-constant fluctuations in my ball-striking amongst the 7-P. I got sick of hitting those well one round only to be slightly-off the next.



    Sure, I was never really terrible, but that constant fluctuation creeps into your psyche and you end up on the range pounding mid-irons way more than you ought to (relative to your allotted practice time) because you "noticed something in your swing" the day before. With the CB, I can miss slightly on the toe because I came out of my posture for instance and not only does the shot still feel okay but I don't have a thousand swing thoughts stemming from it.



    So while I don't think mid-handicappers should be barred from blades in principle, there is a rationale that says, 'as a mid-handicapper you are only practicing X-hours per week and with that constraint there is simply not enough time for you to sharpen the edges of your iron game to the degree necessary for blades without avoiding other areas of your game that deserve as much, or more, attention.'





    In short, figure out how much practice you're going to do and find a set of irons that fits with that.
    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.50)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.50)

    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (3-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52.12 (F) / 56.14 (F) / 60.10 (S)
    Putter: Odyssey O-Works 2-Ball Red
  • cliffhangercliffhanger ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 1,623 ClubWRX
    Good on you OP for sharing your story even though you probably knew that it wouldn't be received well. In a world where everyone seems to know what you need to do to the point where they will debate back and forth to prove it, i can only comment on what transpired last year with my first set of full blades.



    While having MP 18 MB's in the bag (4-PW with PX LZ shafts) i went from a 12 to as low as a 7.8.

    I was hitting approximately 55% of all greens in reg and just over 50% of all fairways.

    I was playing every round from the tips (6800-7200 yards at well above sea level) and this required me to hit every iron in the bag and several 4 or 5 irons on long par 3's. It was a test i was prepared to face and i was enjoying it... until,



    i stopped practicing and playing as often and i saw the results almost immediately.

    I went to hitting below 40% GIR's while still hitting just above 50% of all fairways... this immediately told me that i was struggling with the irons.

    My index started to go up from missing greens and exposing my weaker short game... but to be clear it wasn't my short game that was the cause, it was my lack of practice that led to inconsistent iron play. My close misses became large missed and hitting a green became as exciting as making a birdie as they were now starting to be few and far between.



    So this year i am in limbo with irons... do i go to GI's, or even SGI's or do i do the player's cavity thing? or do i go back to blades one more time? If i can't commit to a higher level of practice and play, then the blades will not be a good choice. with that said, out of everything that i have learned, i am unable to equate as to how much my scoring last year could have changed with a more forgiving iron in the bag. Some people will try to say there is an answer however there isn't a standard that will apply to everyone. My misses in the past, and i can only speak for myself... have been bad with every style of iron i have ever played. When i practiced and played a lot i was rewarded and then i was punished when i didn't.



    I would ask the OP how he arrives at 6-7 greens a round? what i mean by that is how many times are you in the fairway in regulation a round and in turn you have a realistic chance at hitting the green? How many times a round do you punch out from an errant tee shot? How many times a round do you hit driver on a short par 4 to then pitch/chip and three putt? having answers to these questions will help to place your practicing focus. If you are one of those relatively straight hitters of the tee and only hit 6-7 GIR's then you really have to consider more iron focused practice... working on short game doesn't fix the core problem. If more practice doesn't help then you should at that point consider a club with a more forgiving design.



    thats my 2 cents.
    What's In The Bag This Week:

    Epic Flash SZ driver
    Epic Flash SZ 3 wood
    Callaway Apex UT 3 iron
    new irons pending (Srixon Z Forged are looking good)
    new wedges pending (vokey maybe)
    Cameron Newport 3 @ 34 inch
    Chrome Soft X ball
  • JJK947JJK947 Advanced Members Posts: 3,021 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    The above pinestreetgolf post is pretty spot on. Never really met a bogey golfer that had any idea how to accurately assess their own game. So it's not their fault when they are delusional about the whole blades vs. GI iron thing. Not all misses are created equal by a long shot. If you are a double digit handicap I can pretty much guarantee that blades are not helping your game and almost certainly say they are having a detrimental impact to some degree.



    That said, at a casual level who cares? If it makes you happier and want to play/practice more, go for it. Just don't delude yourself and encourage others to do the same. Encourage people to enjoy the game, play what they want to without worrying what others think, and show off those beautiful mizunos while you're at it. There is no reason to try to justify or rationalize why you're playing the MP18s as a mid-high handicap.



    FWIW I do play blades and, even as a scratch, it probably costs me something. I haven't done the comparison to find out exactly how much and I don't intend to. I play them because like them not because there is no tangible forgiveness value in other designs; there definitely is, I just don't care.
  • LUMALUMA I Am My Greatest Downfall Advanced Members Posts: 2,345 ✭✭
    It's amazing how the game as well as the perception of the game has changed with the introduction of game improvement equipment, technology, and marketing...



    *Sigh*
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 9 deg / Aldila Rouge
    Titleist 915 F 15 deg / Diamana 70
    Callaway XR 19 deg Hybrid / Project X LZ S
    Titleist 718 MB PW-4i / Project X 6.0 
    Titleist Vokey SM5 50/54/58
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2.5
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Advanced Members Posts: 337 ✭✭
    dmeeksDC wrote:


    Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.






    I completely agree with this. The best skill to learn in golf is to teach your hands how to put the center of the clubface solidly on the ball. This is proven time and again by those you see with very unconventional mechanics yet shoot lights out, and again by those who have pretty swings and are hitting hosel rockets, thins, fats and the top crown of their "safe" 3w. Practicing these less-than-full-swing shots has another advantage in that you can hit a lot more of them before fatigue sets in.
  • bodhi555bodhi555 Advanced Members Posts: 664 ✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:

    bodhi555 wrote:

    dmeeksDC wrote:


    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can't recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, "You're bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme."



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.




    I think this is the best advice so far to be honest. OP I was in a similar situation to you when I got my first set of Blades, back in 2004 when I got fed up of ho'ing around the latest set of CB's/GI's with very little improvement in my scores, so I thought that year I'd buy a set of blades and see how I got on. I found a set of the mythical blades that Nike had recently released (they were like gold dust in the UK), tried them out, found them much easier to hit than legend would suggest so bought them and put them straight into play. At that point I played off 12, 2 seasons later I was off 7 for one simple reason - they made me practice. There was an element of wanting to improve my ball striking, but to be honest, most of the time I just wanted to go and hit some iron shots.



    I sort of stagnated after that as real life meant game time was limited, hovering between 8 and 10 depending on how my swing was holding together. However I started a course of lessons 2 years ago, just one a month to work on various parts of swinging a golf club i was getting wrong (overswing, then coming over the top and flicking through impact), so I could rely less on good timing and hand-eye co ordination and more on good mechanics and rotation. But along with this we worked on the short game, and now most of my practice is 100 yards and in, and it's having the most impact on my scores. I went from playing to my handicap when the planets aligned to consistently scoring around 80, with a few forays into the low 70's.



    Yet interestingly at no point during this process did my coach suggest I move away from the MB's I'm currently playing, despite the fact he owned the golf shop attached to the range we work at. He didn't see that any of my mishits would benefit from more help, and I'd lose a lot of flexibility in the work we were doing around trajectory control. If you play at a typical tree or gorse lined course in the UK, the need to shape a shot round, over or under an obstacle tends to arise quite frequently.



    tl:dr stick with the blades and get some short game lessons image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    There's no doubt that big changes in short game will do more than blades vs. GI/SGI. In the OP's case, either he really isn't hitting 6-7 greens a round consistently or there is easily 5-10 shots he can cut in 1/2 a season just by playing some very basic pitch / chip shots (I'm not talking becoming the next Mickelson) and keeping 3 putts to a controllable level.



    I can't comment on the type of course you play and what benefits a blade brings. But I think you are not giving enough credit to practicing more and improving mechanics for your better scores (obviously anyone will get better if they do these two things, and I don't know why one can't do this with any clubs). The question is whether there's another shot or two out there from playing an different iron that saves a few marginal swings or gets you 10 feet closer to the hole a few times a round.



    I don't dispute that GI/SGI actually work worse for some golfers. But pros are playing long irons with tons of help (you think they can't practice hitting an MB 2-4 iron better) and there's a +3 handicap in another thread trying to save a shot with a more forgiving club (Henrik Stenson would agree with him). Yet there's 6-12 handicaps everywhere that insist the clubs make no difference on mishits, they hit the ball great, and they need to work the ball up / down, left / right, and probably back and forth in the same shot.



    Gotta think the 6-12 guys are overestimating their ability and true results just a bit.




    Luckily I keep a track on my stats through 18 Birdies, and they certainly are enlightening if we are talking GIR. My average GIR over the last 10 rounds is 48.9%, yet the two rounds I have played in those with CB's (Rentals, same loft/lie as mine, S300 vs S400) are coming in at 44.3% and (incredibly) 22.2%. One course was the first time I'd played it, the lower number I've played a few times now - and 18 Birdies rates them both as easier than the one I play at home. So the data I have, on my game, suggests I hit more greens with my irons than I do with something "easier to hit".



    This is why my advice with blades is always to try them and see how you get on. They don't work for everyone, but if they do, they are well worth the effort.
    The Blue Thunder: Nike Vapor Fly - 9.5 degree - Speeder Evolution 757X
    The Stenson: Nike Vapor Fly 3W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    The Fairway Finder: Nike Vapor Fly Pro 2 Iron - KBS C-Taper 120S Shaft
    The Blades: Nike VR Pro 4i - PW - DG S400 TI Shaft
    The Rusties: Nike Engage 50, 54 Square Sole, 58 Toe Sweep
    The Putter: Scotty Cameron California Del Mar - 34"
    Balls: Nike RZN Tour Black/Platinum, Bridgestone Tour B XS, Titleist AVX
    Bag: Sun Mountain Four Five

    Also in Rotation:

    Spare Driver: Nike Covert Tour - Kuro Kage 60X
    Fairway Woods: Nike Vapor Fly 5W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    Putters: Yonex Super A.D.X Tour Forged / Scotty Cameron Newport Oil Can / Hogan Radial P51
  • BMCBMC Advanced Members Posts: 3,458 ✭✭
    Do you want your surgeon performing your vasectomy with a scalpel or a chef's knife?



    You decide.
    Callaway Epic Flash driver
    PING Rapture 3 wood
    Cobra Baffler Pro 18* hybrid
    PING Eye2 3 & 4 irons
    PING i25 irons
    Vokey wedges
    Odyssey #1WS
  • AndusAndus Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    JJK947 wrote:




    That said, at a casual level who cares? If it makes you happier and want to play/practice more, go for it. Just don't delude yourself and encourage others to do the same. Encourage people to enjoy the game, play what they want to without worrying what others think, and show off those beautiful mizunos while you're at it. There is no reason to try to justify or rationalize why you're playing the MP18s as a mid-high handicap.




    Wait a second, isn't this exactly what I'm doing? I'm trying to encourage people to enjoy the game more, because from my experience, I have enjoyed the game a lot more by getting a set of blades. The title of the post is "My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper". That should imply, given most other people's logic I've seen on WRX about blade usage, that I shouldn't be playing blades. I don't need to rationalize or justify anything, this only started when the 2 handicap and scratch players start commenting and telling me what I should and shouldn't be gaming (even though my handicap has gone down since gaming the MP-18s).
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    bodhi555 wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    bodhi555 wrote:

    dmeeksDC wrote:


    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can't recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, "You're bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme."



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.




    I think this is the best advice so far to be honest. OP I was in a similar situation to you when I got my first set of Blades, back in 2004 when I got fed up of ho'ing around the latest set of CB's/GI's with very little improvement in my scores, so I thought that year I'd buy a set of blades and see how I got on. I found a set of the mythical blades that Nike had recently released (they were like gold dust in the UK), tried them out, found them much easier to hit than legend would suggest so bought them and put them straight into play. At that point I played off 12, 2 seasons later I was off 7 for one simple reason - they made me practice. There was an element of wanting to improve my ball striking, but to be honest, most of the time I just wanted to go and hit some iron shots.



    I sort of stagnated after that as real life meant game time was limited, hovering between 8 and 10 depending on how my swing was holding together. However I started a course of lessons 2 years ago, just one a month to work on various parts of swinging a golf club i was getting wrong (overswing, then coming over the top and flicking through impact), so I could rely less on good timing and hand-eye co ordination and more on good mechanics and rotation. But along with this we worked on the short game, and now most of my practice is 100 yards and in, and it's having the most impact on my scores. I went from playing to my handicap when the planets aligned to consistently scoring around 80, with a few forays into the low 70's.



    Yet interestingly at no point during this process did my coach suggest I move away from the MB's I'm currently playing, despite the fact he owned the golf shop attached to the range we work at. He didn't see that any of my mishits would benefit from more help, and I'd lose a lot of flexibility in the work we were doing around trajectory control. If you play at a typical tree or gorse lined course in the UK, the need to shape a shot round, over or under an obstacle tends to arise quite frequently.



    tl:dr stick with the blades and get some short game lessons image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    There's no doubt that big changes in short game will do more than blades vs. GI/SGI. In the OP's case, either he really isn't hitting 6-7 greens a round consistently or there is easily 5-10 shots he can cut in 1/2 a season just by playing some very basic pitch / chip shots (I'm not talking becoming the next Mickelson) and keeping 3 putts to a controllable level.



    I can't comment on the type of course you play and what benefits a blade brings. But I think you are not giving enough credit to practicing more and improving mechanics for your better scores (obviously anyone will get better if they do these two things, and I don't know why one can't do this with any clubs). The question is whether there's another shot or two out there from playing an different iron that saves a few marginal swings or gets you 10 feet closer to the hole a few times a round.



    I don't dispute that GI/SGI actually work worse for some golfers. But pros are playing long irons with tons of help (you think they can't practice hitting an MB 2-4 iron better) and there's a +3 handicap in another thread trying to save a shot with a more forgiving club (Henrik Stenson would agree with him). Yet there's 6-12 handicaps everywhere that insist the clubs make no difference on mishits, they hit the ball great, and they need to work the ball up / down, left / right, and probably back and forth in the same shot.



    Gotta think the 6-12 guys are overestimating their ability and true results just a bit.




    Luckily I keep a track on my stats through 18 Birdies, and they certainly are enlightening if we are talking GIR. My average GIR over the last 10 rounds is 48.9%, yet the two rounds I have played in those with CB's (Rentals, same loft/lie as mine, S300 vs S400) are coming in at 44.3% and (incredibly) 22.2%. One course was the first time I'd played it, the lower number I've played a few times now - and 18 Birdies rates them both as easier than the one I play at home. So the data I have, on my game, suggests I hit more greens with my irons than I do with something "easier to hit".



    This is why my advice with blades is always to try them and see how you get on. They don't work for everyone, but if they do, they are well worth the effort.


    Good for keeping your stats. I keep mine too and it is really enlightening after a while.



    First, I apologize if my response was "yelling" at your post. I've just heard the same argument over and over, and while I don't doubt it works for any one individual, I highly doubt it's true on average.



    As for serious questions, I really wouldn't consider two rounds with rental sets a sample. Anything can happen in two rounds vs. a season (edit: I just re-read that your 48.9% is over 10 rounds. I'm guessing this is relatively a "good" figure out of all the ones you could have posted or you wouldn't have posted it. What's your GIR% for 50 rounds?). Also, maybe blades really do work better for you. But use something else for a season where you practice more and improve your mechanics and see what happens there too. Like almost all of us, we don't have the time or patience to truly run the scientific experiment between the two, but your scenario seems pretty jaded towards more practice/better swing.



    Lastly, I'm honestly surprised if you and the other poster hit 50% of greens for an extended period of time and play to an 8. 9 greens a round is probably 8 pars. I would think you'd be a few shots better if your iron game is that solid.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    Andus wrote:

    JJK947 wrote:


    That said, at a casual level who cares? If it makes you happier and want to play/practice more, go for it. Just don't delude yourself and encourage others to do the same. Encourage people to enjoy the game, play what they want to without worrying what others think, and show off those beautiful mizunos while you're at it. There is no reason to try to justify or rationalize why you're playing the MP18s as a mid-high handicap.




    Wait a second, isn't this exactly what I'm doing? I'm trying to encourage people to enjoy the game more, because from my experience, I have enjoyed the game a lot more by getting a set of blades. The title of the post is "My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper". That should imply, given most other people's logic I've seen on WRX about blade usage, that I shouldn't be playing blades. I don't need to rationalize or justify anything, this only started when the 2 handicap and scratch players start commenting and telling me what I should and shouldn't be gaming (even though my handicap has gone down since gaming the MP-18s).


    No one disputes the just have fun and do what you want angle. As you can see, there is a debate about forgiveness that seemed to get this started. My only point to you was be honest in assessing your iron game if that is impacting how you think about what clubs to play at all. Most people think they are better than they really are.
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • BottleCapBottleCap Advanced Members Posts: 1,206 ✭✭
    LUMA wrote:


    It's amazing how the game as well as the perception of the game has changed with the introduction of game improvement equipment, technology, and marketing...



    *Sigh*




    I agree.



    Every person i've seen that chases an equipment fix has fundamental flaws in their swing and instead of addressing it they blame equipment.
    Taylormade M3 440 Tensei CK Pro Blue 70S
    Titleist 917F3 15 GD TourAD BB 8S
    Mizuno MP-18 3-PW DG S400
    Vokey SM6 54S and 60K
    Cameron Newport 2 CT
    Bridgestone Tour B XS
  • bub72ckbub72ck Advanced Members Posts: 2,439 ✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:

    Andus wrote:

    JJK947 wrote:


    That said, at a casual level who cares? If it makes you happier and want to play/practice more, go for it. Just don't delude yourself and encourage others to do the same. Encourage people to enjoy the game, play what they want to without worrying what others think, and show off those beautiful mizunos while you're at it. There is no reason to try to justify or rationalize why you're playing the MP18s as a mid-high handicap.




    Wait a second, isn't this exactly what I'm doing? I'm trying to encourage people to enjoy the game more, because from my experience, I have enjoyed the game a lot more by getting a set of blades. The title of the post is "My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper". That should imply, given most other people's logic I've seen on WRX about blade usage, that I shouldn't be playing blades. I don't need to rationalize or justify anything, this only started when the 2 handicap and scratch players start commenting and telling me what I should and shouldn't be gaming (even though my handicap has gone down since gaming the MP-18s).


    No one disputes the just have fun and do what you want angle. As you can see, there is a debate about forgiveness that seemed to get this started. My only point to you was be honest in assessing your iron game if that is impacting how you think about what clubs to play at all. Most people think they are better than they really are.




    This.



    I don't care what you play. My only contention was your comment that "forgiveness is overstated". I just feel that is not true. The comments from the lower handicap players came from the understanding that less forgiving clubs DO make a difference in scoring.



    You are looking for people to support your desire to play blades, and you've gotten that from part of the people who responded. The other half are simply disagreeing with the notion that blades aren't hurting your game. Whether you care about scoring or not is irrelevant to the discussion.
    Titleist TS3 9.5* Diamana S+ X
    Taylormade HFS Diamana Blue 83X
    Taylormade Rescue 09 TP Aldila XVS9
    Titleist 714 AP2 TT DGX100 4-PW
    Vokey SM5 50*, 54* and 60* TT DGS400
    SIK Pro Custom
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Advanced Members Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    Andus wrote:


    ...I have enjoyed the game a lot more by getting a set of blades.




    I'd push back a little on that because you don't realize how much of a statement you're making there.



    To many dedicated fanatics, golf is more than anything else, about one's score. To talk about enjoyment is to talk about finding a way to play better. If a person is happy shooting 100, so be it. But most here would happily trade their current bag if it made them a few shots better.



    I think you're pretty typical. You enjoy several things that everyone does. These include (1) owning pretty irons and (2) the feeling of hitting those 1-piece forged irons. To say that golf is more "fun" because those sorts of aesthetic things though is a statement completely disassociated from one's handicap.



    That isn't to say I can't relate. We've all experienced the honeymoon period of forged irons and many of us have hit blades at one point or another. But again, to many fanatics, golf is measured only by strokes. Thus advertising that golf is in some way improved without your score actually being better would set a person fundamentally apart from the majority of addicts here who do everything possible to shoot increasingly better scores.



    Based on your description I think you've enjoyed the honeymoon period that everyone goes through when they first experience blades. That's to be expected. Tons of mid-handicappers try out blades and report back exactly what you have. They say exactly what you have--the game is more fun.



    We all understand what you mean. But over time, "fun" starts to basically just mean score. It's more fun to walk off the course having shot 77 than having shot 80. So the majority of fanatics decide to optimize scoring at some point, clubs-be-damned. So they look at GIR and forget about what other people on the internet think about blades. You've already heard from several of those people. That's your future, too. Those people aren't different from you. They're simply further down the road.



    I think the fact you didn't go with blades in the longer irons is good. They do you absolutely no favors. I was hitting an MB 3i as recently as last season. There was no reason for that TBH. This year I've got a CB and by any measure besides looks it's a more useful club (and even the looks part is highly debatable!).



    So don't get defensive. Appreciate the insight people who've walked the path are handing you.
    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.50)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.50)

    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (3-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52.12 (F) / 56.14 (F) / 60.10 (S)
    Putter: Odyssey O-Works 2-Ball Red
  • stan111stan111 Members Posts: 6
    I can understand where the OP is coming from.



    When I was in the market for new irons, I tried everything.



    I just loved the way that blades felt when the came off the middle. However, my enjoyment in golf comes from making a few pars a round, giving myself a couple of birdie chances a round and that was not something that blades would give me with my inconsistent strike.



    I settled on a happy middle-ground with the F8 irons - forged face giving me that satisfactory feel when flushing one, and more than enough forgiveness to be close enough to the green on mis-hits.



    I'm also a mid handicapper, play to a HI of ~15. FIR of 45%, GIR of 25%.
    Driver: Taylormade M4 10.5* (set to 10*) shortened by 1" (Atmos Blue TS 6S)
    Fairway: Cobra F7 3/4 (15.5* D)
    Hybrid: Cobra F8 2 (17*)
    Hybrid: Cobra F7 2/3 (19*)
    Hybrid: Cobra F7 4/5 (23.5* D)
    Irons: Cobra F8: 6i to GW
    Wedges: Cleveland RTX-3 CB: 54* and 58*
    Putter: Odyssey O-Works 7s 35"
    Bag: Clicgear B3
    Cart: Clicgear 3.5+
  • bub72ckbub72ck Advanced Members Posts: 2,439 ✭✭
    MelloYello wrote:

    Andus wrote:


    ...I have enjoyed the game a lot more by getting a set of blades.




    I'd push back a little on that because you don't realize how much of a statement you're making there.



    To many dedicated fanatics, golf is more than anything else, about one's score. To talk about enjoyment is to talk about finding a way to play better. If a person is happy shooting 100, so be it. But most here would happily trade their current bag if it made them a few shots better.



    I think you're pretty typical. You enjoy several things that everyone does. These include (1) owning pretty irons and (2) the feeling of hitting those 1-piece forged irons. To say that golf is more "fun" because those sorts of aesthetic things though is a statement completely disassociated from one's handicap.



    That isn't to say I can't relate. We've all experienced the honeymoon period of forged irons and many of us have hit blades at one point or another. But again, to many fanatics, golf is measured only by strokes. Thus advertising that golf is in some way improved without your score actually being better would set a person fundamentally apart from the majority of addicts here who do everything possible to shoot increasingly better scores.



    Based on your description I think you've enjoyed the honeymoon period that everyone goes through when they first experience blades. That's to be expected. Tons of mid-handicappers try out blades and report back exactly what you have. They say exactly what you have--the game is more fun.



    We all understand what you mean. But over time, "fun" starts to basically just mean score. It's more fun to walk off the course having shot 77 than having shot 80. So the majority of fanatics decide to optimize scoring at some point, clubs-be-damned. So they look at GIR and forget about what other people on the internet think about blades. You've already heard from several of those people. That's your future, too. Those people aren't different from you. They're simply further down the road.



    I think the fact you didn't go with blades in the longer irons is good. They do you absolutely no favors. I was hitting an MB 3i as recently as last season. There was no reason for that TBH. This year I've got a CB and by any measure besides looks it's a more useful club (and even the looks part is highly debatable!).



    So don't get defensive. Appreciate the insight people who've walked the path are handing you.




    I had an obsession with blades and low lofted drivers when I was young. It was only after I gave up the necessity to use those two things that I was able to maximize my practice and get better. Now I would play shovels if it made my scores lower but I think the equipment I've chosen to play gives me the best chance to score well. I get a lot of flack from people for using 4 wedges (47,50,54,60). Lack of creativity, lack of skill, etc. I really don't care. We're given the choice of any 14 clubs we want. I may as well use the 14 that give me the best opportunity to win.
    Titleist TS3 9.5* Diamana S+ X
    Taylormade HFS Diamana Blue 83X
    Taylormade Rescue 09 TP Aldila XVS9
    Titleist 714 AP2 TT DGX100 4-PW
    Vokey SM5 50*, 54* and 60* TT DGS400
    SIK Pro Custom
  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Advanced Members Posts: 6,927 ✭✭
    dmeeksDC wrote:


    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can’t recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, “You’re bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme.”



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.




    Said much better but glad to see the support for my premise stated earlier!
  • bodhi555bodhi555 Advanced Members Posts: 664 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    agolf1 wrote:

    bodhi555 wrote:

    agolf1 wrote:

    bodhi555 wrote:

    dmeeksDC wrote:


    The OP will improve a lot more by taking in a half- or full-day short game school than by switching to GI irons. Can't recommend it enough. You sound like you have a powerful swing. I like to hit it hard too. When I took the short-game school (Erika Larkin) first thing she said was, "You're bringing too much of your full swing game to your short gsme."



    Tempo is the key. Tempo leads to touch. Watch pros hit these shots. It is very rhythmic, not powerful. Not full swings because it is not necessary.



    Almost all short game shots I hit now are 75 percent or less. Produces far better shots. I dropped 4-5 shots a round very quickly. Another tip (from Mike Malaska): Only practice 50-60 yard shots for a range session, using different clubs to varying targets. Changes your mentality and lets you see how little speed is required to hit a 60 yard shot. And weirdly, it makes your full swings better without even practicing them.



    As for the irons, I also found no difference between the MP18 MB and SC. I think the Cally Apex MB is really appealing too and the Srixon 965 is my favorite MB of past few years. Go to short game school with a pro who teaches it well and the irons will be fine whatever you choose.




    I think this is the best advice so far to be honest. OP I was in a similar situation to you when I got my first set of Blades, back in 2004 when I got fed up of ho'ing around the latest set of CB's/GI's with very little improvement in my scores, so I thought that year I'd buy a set of blades and see how I got on. I found a set of the mythical blades that Nike had recently released (they were like gold dust in the UK), tried them out, found them much easier to hit than legend would suggest so bought them and put them straight into play. At that point I played off 12, 2 seasons later I was off 7 for one simple reason - they made me practice. There was an element of wanting to improve my ball striking, but to be honest, most of the time I just wanted to go and hit some iron shots.



    I sort of stagnated after that as real life meant game time was limited, hovering between 8 and 10 depending on how my swing was holding together. However I started a course of lessons 2 years ago, just one a month to work on various parts of swinging a golf club i was getting wrong (overswing, then coming over the top and flicking through impact), so I could rely less on good timing and hand-eye co ordination and more on good mechanics and rotation. But along with this we worked on the short game, and now most of my practice is 100 yards and in, and it's having the most impact on my scores. I went from playing to my handicap when the planets aligned to consistently scoring around 80, with a few forays into the low 70's.



    Yet interestingly at no point during this process did my coach suggest I move away from the MB's I'm currently playing, despite the fact he owned the golf shop attached to the range we work at. He didn't see that any of my mishits would benefit from more help, and I'd lose a lot of flexibility in the work we were doing around trajectory control. If you play at a typical tree or gorse lined course in the UK, the need to shape a shot round, over or under an obstacle tends to arise quite frequently.



    tl:dr stick with the blades and get some short game lessons image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


    There's no doubt that big changes in short game will do more than blades vs. GI/SGI. In the OP's case, either he really isn't hitting 6-7 greens a round consistently or there is easily 5-10 shots he can cut in 1/2 a season just by playing some very basic pitch / chip shots (I'm not talking becoming the next Mickelson) and keeping 3 putts to a controllable level.



    I can't comment on the type of course you play and what benefits a blade brings. But I think you are not giving enough credit to practicing more and improving mechanics for your better scores (obviously anyone will get better if they do these two things, and I don't know why one can't do this with any clubs). The question is whether there's another shot or two out there from playing an different iron that saves a few marginal swings or gets you 10 feet closer to the hole a few times a round.



    I don't dispute that GI/SGI actually work worse for some golfers. But pros are playing long irons with tons of help (you think they can't practice hitting an MB 2-4 iron better) and there's a +3 handicap in another thread trying to save a shot with a more forgiving club (Henrik Stenson would agree with him). Yet there's 6-12 handicaps everywhere that insist the clubs make no difference on mishits, they hit the ball great, and they need to work the ball up / down, left / right, and probably back and forth in the same shot.



    Gotta think the 6-12 guys are overestimating their ability and true results just a bit.




    Luckily I keep a track on my stats through 18 Birdies, and they certainly are enlightening if we are talking GIR. My average GIR over the last 10 rounds is 48.9%, yet the two rounds I have played in those with CB's (Rentals, same loft/lie as mine, S300 vs S400) are coming in at 44.3% and (incredibly) 22.2%. One course was the first time I'd played it, the lower number I've played a few times now - and 18 Birdies rates them both as easier than the one I play at home. So the data I have, on my game, suggests I hit more greens with my irons than I do with something "easier to hit".



    This is why my advice with blades is always to try them and see how you get on. They don't work for everyone, but if they do, they are well worth the effort.


    Good for keeping your stats. I keep mine too and it is really enlightening after a while.



    First, I apologize if my response was "yelling" at your post. I've just heard the same argument over and over, and while I don't doubt it works for any one individual, I highly doubt it's true on average.



    As for serious questions, I really wouldn't consider two rounds with rental sets a sample. Anything can happen in two rounds vs. a season (edit: I just re-read that your 48.9% is over 10 rounds. I'm guessing this is relatively a "good" figure out of all the ones you could have posted or you wouldn't have posted it. What's your GIR% for 50 rounds?). Also, maybe blades really do work better for you. But use something else for a season where you practice more and improve your mechanics and see what happens there too. Like almost all of us, we don't have the time or patience to truly run the scientific experiment between the two, but your scenario seems pretty jaded towards more practice/better swing.



    Lastly, I'm honestly surprised if you and the other poster hit 50% of greens for an extended period of time and play to an 8. 9 greens a round is probably 8 pars. I would think you'd be a few shots better if your iron game is that solid.




    Don't worry it didn't come across as yelling at all, whilst internet discussion may seem petty to some, it's great for challenging my own point of view image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    Anyway I only picked the last 10 rounds as that is the default filter on 18 Birdies image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I've gone back over 50 and it has dropped to 41.8%, which I was slightly disappointed with, but reading the link earlier in the thread, it's right around where I should be for playing off 8. The last 10 does reflect the increase in form I've seen since the end of last season however, but as you say that is down to hard work, not my choice of irons. But then my choice of irons encourages practice and a better swing to get the most out of them, and round again we go image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



    However in my case it isn't the 50% of holes I make GIR that are the issue, it's the 50% I don't. When I blow up, I do it in style, and there is no cavity back in the world that's keeping me out of the trees....



    I think there's another tip in there for the OP, get an app like 18 Birdies and track your stats, it can be enlightening in terms of figuring out where you are going wrong.
    The Blue Thunder: Nike Vapor Fly - 9.5 degree - Speeder Evolution 757X
    The Stenson: Nike Vapor Fly 3W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    The Fairway Finder: Nike Vapor Fly Pro 2 Iron - KBS C-Taper 120S Shaft
    The Blades: Nike VR Pro 4i - PW - DG S400 TI Shaft
    The Rusties: Nike Engage 50, 54 Square Sole, 58 Toe Sweep
    The Putter: Scotty Cameron California Del Mar - 34"
    Balls: Nike RZN Tour Black/Platinum, Bridgestone Tour B XS, Titleist AVX
    Bag: Sun Mountain Four Five

    Also in Rotation:

    Spare Driver: Nike Covert Tour - Kuro Kage 60X
    Fairway Woods: Nike Vapor Fly 5W - Diamana Blueboard 70S+
    Putters: Yonex Super A.D.X Tour Forged / Scotty Cameron Newport Oil Can / Hogan Radial P51
  • gvogelgvogel Advanced Members Posts: 7,001 ✭✭
    Andus wrote:


    Hey guys, I know there are a lot of WRXers that absolutely love the look of blades but are a bit scared to actually consider playing with them (I was one of those people too a year ago).



    A few months ago, I decided to buy a Mizuno combo set. I'm gaming 4-6 MP-18 SC, and 7-PW MP-18 MB. All of them have Modus 3 120 X flex shafts. To be honest, I almost wish I went 4-PW in the MB because I don't find the SC to be any more forgiving than the MB, however the feel is on par I'd say. My swing speed with driver is about 110MPH and with a 7 iron is around 93MPH.



    I was a pretty decent ball striker but my handicap was awfully high due to my short game (putting & within 50 yards). I am a complete sucker for looks & feel, and those two attributes are probably most important to me when choosing clubs to play. With that said, the switch from GI irons to blades has been amazing for me. I personally don't buy into the whole "forgiveness" thing too much. Sure, a big fat hunk of metal with much more toe weighting might help you pull a few more yards out of a mishit, but the reality is, regardless of the iron you're playing the shot is going to be a bad shot whether you get 5 extra yards or not. Nevertheless, these irons have helped me find the middle of the club more often than not and best of all have inspired me to play golf even more. Every time I see these irons in my golf bag, I can't help myself put to go pull one out and just admire the beauty (I know, I'm a loser).



    Anyway, my point in writing this is to hopefully inspire somebody else on the fence about blades to give them a try. If you have any other specific questions, ask away!







    I think that anyone with a driver swing speed of 110 and who loves to play blades should play blades.



    Personally, I have never been higher than mid-90's with the driver - at least for the last 15 years - and I need help launching the ball. And I need every yard I can scrounge out. So I play Game improvement in the longer irons (AP1) and AP2 in the short irons. Most of the guys that play in the league also need the help. Right? Welcome to the other 95% of the golf population.



    Play blades with my hickories.
    On Sundays, I used to play hickory
  • AndusAndus Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    I am happy to see that so many people are as passionate about this topic as I am. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
  • st997777st997777 Advanced Members Posts: 201 ✭✭
    JJK947 wrote:


    The above pinestreetgolf post is pretty spot on. Never really met a bogey golfer that had any idea how to accurately assess their own game. So it's not their fault when they are delusional about the whole blades vs. GI iron thing. Not all misses are created equal by a long shot. If you are a double digit handicap I can pretty much guarantee that blades are not helping your game and almost certainly say they are having a detrimental impact to some degree.



    That said, at a casual level who cares? If it makes you happier and want to play/practice more, go for it. Just don't delude yourself and encourage others to do the same. Encourage people to enjoy the game, play what they want to without worrying what others think, and show off those beautiful mizunos while you're at it. There is no reason to try to justify or rationalize why you're playing the MP18s as a mid-high handicap.



    FWIW I do play blades and, even as a scratch, it probably costs me something. I haven't done the comparison to find out exactly how much and I don't intend to. I play them because like them not because there is no tangible forgiveness value in other designs; there definitely is, I just don't care.




    Fantastic post. We should just end the discussion on this note.
  • ThatBigBenThatBigBen Members Posts: 29
    I play a split set of Miura MB/CB and I'm at 10 handicap. I think generally playing GI or SGI irons is the better route for a mid/high handicapper. However for me I've improved with the new set I was a 15 with my old cobra irons, I'm practicing the same amount if not less.



    My instructor and I did head to head testing and fitting for my irons and found the Miura's were the best fit for me. We put them up against the AP2, Cobra King F8, Callaway Apex and XR and Taylormade M-2s. The Miura's had tighter dispersion and better distance. I was leaning towards the AP2's but couldn't deny that the Miura's were the better fit for me.



    I also think people should play what they like, if your investing the money into something you better like the way it looks/feels/sounds.
    WITB:

    Driver: Callaway Big Bertha Alpha DBD16 Evenflow Blue
    3 Wood: Callaway XR Pro 15* Tensei Orange
    Hybrid: Cobra Bio Cell 19* Tensei Orange
    Irons: Miura CB/MB Combo Y Grind 4-PW
    Wedges: Miura 51*/55* PM Grind 60*
    Putter: TaylorMade Ardmore
  • chisagchisag Advanced Members Posts: 2,893 ✭✭
    mantan wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:


    Interesting to me is what is considered the definition of a "good ball striker"?



    I think a lot of recreational players simply define it as someone who hits a decent amount of solidly struck shots.



    That may not be entirely inaccurate, but I think most Tour pros would define a good ball striker as a player who hits >65% of GIRs and has control of his golf ball...trajectory, shot shape, and precise distances.




    That's my thought as well. It's funny how the definition changes the better you get. I've seen SO many posts over the years by mid-handicappers who claim they are 'good ballstrikers' and by single digit guys who say they 'aren't great ballstrikers.'






    ... WRX is the only place that these discussions happen. As a + index, I certainly have days where my ball striking is off, sometimes due to my 2 back surgeries and sometimes just because I am having an off day. I played MB's for 10 years I know they effect my game negatively, specifically in the long irons. What I find interesting is low index players know they aren't always great ball strikers but can make up shots around the green. Not only saving par, but making birdies after a marginal iron shot. Single digits is about scoring, not necessarily ball striking. WRX mid caps are often the opposite, playing MB's because it is so fashionable and claiming they have a poor short game. There is little doubt going low is a product of how close you hit your irons and single digit players can certainly knock down flags on a good day. But the big difference is scoring when you are not having a great ball striking day. It is rare to find a really low single digit player without a good all around game, although a stellar short game can make up for a ton of mistakes. Contrasted with mid caps that have poor short games and are marginal ball strikers but because they hit more than a few very solid, think they are good ball strikers. I have to chuckle thinking of Hogan, thought of by many as the best ball striker ever, saying he usually hit only 1 iron shot per round exactly like he wanted to. Yet WRX if filled with MB threads and mid caps justifying why they play them*.



    * As always, many play this game for reasons other than shooting their lowest scores and playing whatever brings you the most enjoyment, including the smallest headed MB, is all that matters.
    Cobra F9 Tour Length ... Atmos Blue TS 65s
    Cobra F9 15.5* ... Atmos Blue TS 75s
    Cobra F6 Baffler ... Kuro Kage Black 75s
    TaylorMade UDi 18* 2 iron... HZRDUS Black 85hy
    4-pw TaylorMade P790 ... Recoil Prototype 95's
    SM6 52* F Grind /SM7 D Grind 58* ... Recoil 110s
    Bobby Grace 6330 ... 33.5"
  • chisagchisag Advanced Members Posts: 2,893 ✭✭
    JJK947 wrote:


    Not all misses are created equal by a long shot. If you are a double digit handicap I can pretty much guarantee that blades are not helping your game and almost certainly say they are having a detrimental impact to some degree.



    That said, at a casual level who cares? Just don't delude yourself and encourage others to do the same. Encourage people to enjoy the game, play what they want to without worrying what others think, and show off those beautiful mizunos while you're at it. There is no reason to try to justify or rationalize why you're playing the MP18s as a mid-high handicap.



    FWIW I do play blades and, even as a scratch, it probably costs me something. I haven't done the comparison to find out exactly how much and I don't intend to. I play them because like them not because there is no tangible forgiveness value in other designs; there definitely is, I just don't care.





    ... Maybe my favorite post concerning MB's on WRX.
    Cobra F9 Tour Length ... Atmos Blue TS 65s
    Cobra F9 15.5* ... Atmos Blue TS 75s
    Cobra F6 Baffler ... Kuro Kage Black 75s
    TaylorMade UDi 18* 2 iron... HZRDUS Black 85hy
    4-pw TaylorMade P790 ... Recoil Prototype 95's
    SM6 52* F Grind /SM7 D Grind 58* ... Recoil 110s
    Bobby Grace 6330 ... 33.5"
  • IamMarkMacIamMarkMac Advanced Members Posts: 519 ✭✭
    LUMA wrote:


    It's amazing how the game as well as the perception of the game has changed with the introduction of game improvement equipment, technology, and marketing...



    *Sigh*




    When my dad first tried to teach me golf as I child, blades were all we had and I didn't pick up the game despite a fair swing (for an 11 year old). It was painful and difficult and my friends all thought golf was a game for old men so it didn't last despite all my father's efforts to support me. In college, I saw both the Eye2 and the S2H2 and gave those a try and the game was remarkably easier. That's when the game stuck with me.



    I don't think I'd have rediscovered the game if the technology hadn't developed from blades. I do agree with the point that nowadays, differences are minuscule from year to year but I do appreciate that I needed the tech advancement else I'd never have played regularly.
    Ping G400 LST 10
    Ping G400 3W 14.5
    Ping G400 3H 19
    Mizuno JPX 919 Hot Metal Pro
    Mizuno s18 50, 54, 58
    Bettinardi BB1
  • LUMALUMA I Am My Greatest Downfall Advanced Members Posts: 2,345 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    chisag wrote:

    mantan wrote:

    dpb5031 wrote:


    Interesting to me is what is considered the definition of a "good ball striker"?



    I think a lot of recreational players simply define it as someone who hits a decent amount of solidly struck shots.



    That may not be entirely inaccurate, but I think most Tour pros would define a good ball striker as a player who hits >65% of GIRs and has control of his golf ball...trajectory, shot shape, and precise distances.




    That's my thought as well. It's funny how the definition changes the better you get. I've seen SO many posts over the years by mid-handicappers who claim they are 'good ballstrikers' and by single digit guys who say they 'aren't great ballstrikers.'






    ... WRX is the only place that these discussions happen. As a + index, I certainly have days where my ball striking is off, sometimes due to my 2 back surgeries and sometimes just because I am having an off day. I played MB's for 10 years I know they effect my game negatively, specifically in the long irons. What I find interesting is low index players know they aren't always great ball strikers but can make up shots around the green. Not only saving par, but making birdies after a marginal iron shot. Single digits is about scoring, not necessarily ball striking. WRX mid caps are often the opposite, playing MB's because it is so fashionable and claiming they have a poor short game. There is little doubt going low is a product of how close you hit your irons and single digit players can certainly knock down flags on a good day. But the big difference is scoring when you are not having a great ball striking day. It is rare to find a really low single digit player without a good all around game, although a stellar short game can make up for a ton of mistakes. Contrasted with mid caps that have poor short games and are marginal ball strikers but because they hit more than a few very solid, think they are good ball strikers. I have to chuckle thinking of Hogan, thought of by many as the best ball striker ever, saying he usually hit only 1 iron shot per round exactly like he wanted to. Yet WRX if filled with MB threads and mid caps justifying why they play them*.



    * As always, many play this game for reasons other than shooting their lowest scores and playing whatever brings you the most enjoyment, including the smallest headed MB, is all that matters.




    Yuuup. You gotta get good from 100 yards and in. Irons whether they are a muscle backs or GI aren't going to drop 10 strokes off your game. Getting up and down will. I play an MB and although I do find the middle of the club face more often than not, I'm not firing approach shots within five feet of pins every time and a GI iron wouldn't help me do that either. Sometimes I can stuff them close and sometimes I don't. When I don't, I score by getting up and down or draining/chipping in from a distance.



    IMHO, iron choice for MOST golfers comes down to spin, flight, distance control and feel. If you are all over the club face it doesn't matter what you use... you need to correct that, unless physically you cant for some reason. Then I understand a super GI iron. I had a set of clubs stolen a few years ago and played a round with a friends set of GI irons. They were ghastly looking beasts... The only difference was I had to flight the ball down a little more and my distance control was not as specific. ZERO scoring difference. Ball flight, spin and distance control were the only difference that day. I don't think some of you WRXr's are going to like that or agree with it, so I now digress from this one.



    My advise is if you are going to get all wrapped up in something, it should be playing the game and not equipment. If you focus on your game first, the equipment will follow and you will know what helps you get results rather than what Taylormade or Callaway said on the website.
    Callaway Epic Sub Zero 9 deg / Aldila Rouge
    Titleist 915 F 15 deg / Diamana 70
    Callaway XR 19 deg Hybrid / Project X LZ S
    Titleist 718 MB PW-4i / Project X 6.0 
    Titleist Vokey SM5 50/54/58
    Scotty Cameron Newport 2.5
  • toctoc Advanced Members Posts: 2,647 ✭✭
    I’m beginning to think the 15+ handicappers who are only held back by short game/putting are the new drive it 325+ guys
    Glove: ML
    Tees: 2 3/4
    Towel: white
    Repair tool: metal
    Ball Marker: largest poker chip in the world
    Iron headcovers: wait, what?

    The feedback system is annoying
  • dodgymandodgyman Members Posts: 53 ✭✭
    I'm in a similar position as the OP. I won't argue that forgiveness is a sham but what really gets me is the polarization of this debate. These kinds of discussions and the marketing made it feel like blades are so unforgiving that as a mid-handicapper I'd be shanking shots left/right and center, I'd loose 10-20 yards, and that anything short of a perfect strike would hurt my hands.



    This is not an exaggeration, as silly as it sounds it's literally what was being insinuated and stopped me from even trying blades when shopping for new clubs.



    Why don't we see any topics/discussions on how a mid-handicapper shouldn't play GIs but stick to SGIs. Why is that drop-off any greater/different than GIs to blades?



    The key point in OP's comments, to me, are just surrounding the negativity on trying. I don't know how anyone can say the drop-off is so bad that other factors such as confidence/feel/looks can't easily make up for the relatively small difference in performance.
    [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]DR: Cobra F9 (Graphite Design TourAD GP)
    3W: Cobra F7 (ProjectX Hzrdus Red)
    Hy: Cobra F9 3h (Graphite Design TourAD HY)
    4-PW: Mizuno MP18 (Modus Tour 105)
    52,56,60: Mizuno S18 (Modus wedge)
    P: Evnroll ER2[/font]
  • lenman73lenman73 Advanced Members Posts: 764 ✭✭
    As a mid capper that loves blades I just love reading from other people how someone doesn't know their own game that well. Please. Peaking for myself, approaching the 30 year mark from when I started playing I know my game quite well. I know my strengths and weaknesses. Due to work and other hobbies and a hiatus from the game my cap is obviously higher than I want. This year I decided to make a real effort to get better. Even going to price some lessons. I recently went down to one set of blades. (Had 2 sets of blades and one combo set. I'm a club ho that likes experimenting with cheap used stuff) Not because my score would change but due to pain in my wrist after 2 surgeries, I have to play with it wrapped. A miss hit simply hurts more than it does with a shovel. I don't hit every shot perfect but I am a short game wizard. While I don't practice the long game enough, I do practice the short game religiously. Do I love playing blades, yes. Do I hit some thin, yes. Do I also hit my shovels thin, absolutely. Only difference is I don't have the reverb going all the way up past my elbow. But like others have posted, I can shoot the same scores with any iron I put in my bag.



    Most of my cap comes from lack of distance, which I'm working on. But I don't hit it far, I don't swing out of my shoes and am fairly accurate so when close to the green I get to use my short game. But as far as confidence goes, even though I can miss hit any club in my bag at any time, looking down at a 4 iron blade does not cause as much anxiety as looking at a 4 iron shovel. And as the ground gets harder and dryer during the summer, I like irons with a smaller sole. I know going into it with the loft difference one will go farther off the bat. So you can adjust to that. While I am not on a mission to convert the world to using blades, for those that hit them or what ever you want to hit, just do it. Don't let someone on the internet who never seen you swing a club tell you what's best for your game. Your own fun level and excitement will do that for you.
  • IamMarkMacIamMarkMac Advanced Members Posts: 519 ✭✭
    dodgyman wrote:




    Why don't we see any topics/discussions on how a mid-handicapper shouldn't play GIs but stick to SGIs. Why is that drop-off any greater/different than GIs to blades?




    Mainly because each camp is super defensive about their position and really, both sides have good players who believe that their equipment is best for their game and would be good for others. People playing SGIs really don't care about what other people play. Playing SGI, you're basically happy to be on the course.
    Ping G400 LST 10
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    Ping G400 3H 19
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Advanced Members Posts: 3,327 ✭✭
    lenman73 wrote:
    As a mid capper that loves blades I just love reading from other people how someone doesn't know their own game that well. Please. Peaking for myself, approaching the 30 year mark from when I started playing I know my game quite well. I know my strengths and weaknesses. Due to work and other hobbies and a hiatus from the game my cap is obviously higher than I want. This year I decided to make a real effort to get better. Even going to price some lessons. I recently went down to one set of blades. (Had 2 sets of blades and one combo set. I'm a club ho that likes experimenting with cheap used stuff) Not because my score would change but due to pain in my wrist after 2 surgeries, I have to play with it wrapped. A miss hit simply hurts more than it does with a shovel. I don't hit every shot perfect but I am a short game wizard. While I don't practice the long game enough, I do practice the short game religiously. Do I love playing blades, yes. Do I hit some thin, yes. Do I also hit my shovels thin, absolutely. Only difference is I don't have the reverb going all the way up past my elbow. But like others have posted, I can shoot the same scores with any iron I put in my bag.



    Most of my cap comes from lack of distance, which I'm working on. But I don't hit it far, I don't swing out of my shoes and am fairly accurate so when close to the green I get to use my short game. But as far as confidence goes, even though I can miss hit any club in my bag at any time, looking down at a 4 iron blade does not cause as much anxiety as looking at a 4 iron shovel. And as the ground gets harder and dryer during the summer, I like irons with a smaller sole. I know going into it with the loft difference one will go farther off the bat. So you can adjust to that. While I am not on a mission to convert the world to using blades, for those that hit them or what ever you want to hit, just do it. Don't let someone on the internet who never seen you swing a club tell you what's best for your game. Your own fun level and excitement will do that for you.




    It’s math. He doesn’t lose 12+ strokes in and around the green. It doesn’t work unless he literally has one of the worst short games of a regular golfer of all time.



    I don’t care how long you’ve played for. I don’t care if you want to play blades. But nobody is hitting six greens a round and scoring poorly because they can’t get up and down 12 times a round. That’s just silly. “I’m a 9 bc of my short game and putting” = maybe. “I’m a 15 bc of my short game and putting”’= distorted view. Fact. You don’t shoot 87 consistently by blading 6 chips a round and four putting three times. Maybe once. But not regularly.



    “Any suggestions for driver shafts? I drive it about 200 yards carry, but my swing speed is 112. Thinking Either X or TX. Thoughts?”



    “Uh, that probably isn’t true.”



    “Don’t tell me my own game!!!!!”
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  • AndusAndus Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited March 13

    lenman73 wrote:
    As a mid capper that loves blades I just love reading from other people how someone doesn't know their own game that well. Please. Peaking for myself, approaching the 30 year mark from when I started playing I know my game quite well. I know my strengths and weaknesses. Due to work and other hobbies and a hiatus from the game my cap is obviously higher than I want. This year I decided to make a real effort to get better. Even going to price some lessons. I recently went down to one set of blades. (Had 2 sets of blades and one combo set. I'm a club ho that likes experimenting with cheap used stuff) Not because my score would change but due to pain in my wrist after 2 surgeries, I have to play with it wrapped. A miss hit simply hurts more than it does with a shovel. I don't hit every shot perfect but I am a short game wizard. While I don't practice the long game enough, I do practice the short game religiously. Do I love playing blades, yes. Do I hit some thin, yes. Do I also hit my shovels thin, absolutely. Only difference is I don't have the reverb going all the way up past my elbow. But like others have posted, I can shoot the same scores with any iron I put in my bag.



    Most of my cap comes from lack of distance, which I'm working on. But I don't hit it far, I don't swing out of my shoes and am fairly accurate so when close to the green I get to use my short game. But as far as confidence goes, even though I can miss hit any club in my bag at any time, looking down at a 4 iron blade does not cause as much anxiety as looking at a 4 iron shovel. And as the ground gets harder and dryer during the summer, I like irons with a smaller sole. I know going into it with the loft difference one will go farther off the bat. So you can adjust to that. While I am not on a mission to convert the world to using blades, for those that hit them or what ever you want to hit, just do it. Don't let someone on the internet who never seen you swing a club tell you what's best for your game. Your own fun level and excitement will do that for you.




    It’s math. He doesn’t lose 12+ strokes in and around the green. It doesn’t work unless he literally has one of the worst short games of a regular golfer of all time.



    I don’t care how long you’ve played for. I don’t care if you want to play blades. But nobody is hitting six greens a round and scoring poorly because they can’t get up and down 12 times a round. That’s just silly. “I’m a 9 bc of my short game and putting” = maybe. “I’m a 15 bc of my short game and putting”’= distorted view. Fact. You don’t shoot 87 consistently by blading 6 chips a round and four putting three times. Maybe once. But not regularly.



    “Any suggestions for driver shafts? I drive it about 200 yards carry, but my swing speed is 112. Thinking Either X or TX. Thoughts?”



    “Uh, that probably isn’t true.”



    “Don’t tell me my own game!!!!!”
    Lol this guy's a warrior! When I said I probably hit 6-7 GIR, that was an estimate. I literally have never counted how many GIR I've hit in a round (says a lot about my seriousness for getting my cap down, huh?). I'd also estimate that I 3 putt 3-4 times a round too. Keep on trying to tell me how my golf game is played though, warrior.
  • lenman73lenman73 Advanced Members Posts: 764 ✭✭
    I knew he would be the first to respond to my post. He knows everything. You don't have to ask him. He will tell you over and over he knows more about you than you.



    Key up response in 3..2..1.
  • backhillbackhill Members Posts: 55 ✭✭
    I can definitely concur that playing clubs that are a tier below your abilities helps from a learning and feedback perspective. HItting shovels over and over keeps you on that crutch. I went from SGI to AP2's, and recently to MBs. They've helped me tremendously to learn how I'm mishitting. I've started to hit them well on the range and hoping it carries over to the course.
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    Andus wrote:


    When I said I probably hit 6-7 GIR, that was an estimate. I literally have never counted how many GIR I've hit in a round (says a lot about my seriousness for getting my cap down, huh?).


    Some people don't like it (or don't like what the true message is), but Pine generally knows a lot. Obviously, you can chose whether you listen to any person or not.



    But I think the point is valid, and I tried to ask it above too. If you are truly hitting 6-7 greens, you literally need to be throwing away a shot a hole on the other holes (3 putt from 20 feet every time, duffed chip/pitch, etc). I didn't want to call you a liar on the GIR, let's just say I found it highly questionable. And it's not surprising to me that the 6 -7 GIR was an estimate. Track it for 10 rounds --- I'd guess it's noticeably lower.



    None of this has anything to do with play to have fun or play your blades if you want to. The good thing for you is you seem to have decent clubhead speed (this can only be improved so much for most people), and should be able to improve a lot.



    But the above reiterates my point about people being honest in their skill assessment.
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  • gbartkogbartko Whooooo! Advanced Members Posts: 607 ✭✭
    Dear GolfWRX,



    I'm a 15 handicap and I never thought this would happen to me...
  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Advanced Members Posts: 6,927 ✭✭
    agolf1 wrote:

    Andus wrote:


    When I said I probably hit 6-7 GIR, that was an estimate. I literally have never counted how many GIR I've hit in a round (says a lot about my seriousness for getting my cap down, huh?).


    Some people don't like it (or don't like what the true message is), but Pine generally knows a lot. Obviously, you can chose whether you listen to any person or not.



    But I think the point is valid, and I tried to ask it above too. If you are truly hitting 6-7 greens, you literally need to be throwing away a shot a hole on the other holes (3 putt from 20 feet every time, duffed chip/pitch, etc). I didn't want to call you a liar on the GIR, let's just say I found it highly questionable. And it's not surprising to me that the 6 -7 GIR was an estimate. Track it for 10 rounds --- I'd guess it's noticeably lower.



    None of this has anything to do with play to have fun or play your blades if you want to. The good thing for you is you seem to have decent clubhead speed (this can only be improved so much for most people), and should be able to improve a lot.



    But the above reiterates my point about people being honest in their skill assessment.






    You have great tone in your post my man.....but I think we're overlooking some key points....



    1) he doesn't care about score or improving

    2) he likes blades!



    We've all given great points and concepts on how to improve from his current handicap.....from moving into easier to hit irons, tracking stats and taking lessons....none of it matters....he just came here to Express his enjoyment with blades.... not too complicated
  • BiggErnBiggErn Advanced Members Posts: 2,001 ✭✭
    backhill wrote:
    I can definitely concur that playing clubs that are a tier below your abilities helps from a learning and feedback perspective. HItting shovels over and over keeps you on that crutch. I went from SGI to AP2's, and recently to MBs. They've helped me tremendously to learn how I'm mishitting. I've started to hit them well on the range and hoping it carries over to the course.




    Lol. If they’ve helped you then you should be close to a world class ball striker by now. These kind of posts are hard to take seriously and so full of ****. Golf is hard and nothing is a “crutch”. You don’t need a particular club to see where your misses are and the goal is to hit them all in the center of the face. If you don’t be glad you have something available to give a little help when you don’t.
  • agolf1agolf1 Advanced Members Posts: 530 ✭✭
    SwooshLT wrote:


    he just came here to Express his enjoyment with blades.... not too complicated


    Yes, unfortunately the main point of his post got caught up in the crossfire that ensued about forgiveness. But at least he's getting a bunch of publicity and becoming famous here!
    Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
    Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
    TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
    Ping G25 5-PW (25*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
    Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
    Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter
  • toctoc Advanced Members Posts: 2,647 ✭✭
    What is more fruitless: a person trying to justify why he plays a certain club, or someone trying to justify why said person shouldn’t play those clubs?
    Glove: ML
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    Towel: white
    Repair tool: metal
    Ball Marker: largest poker chip in the world
    Iron headcovers: wait, what?

    The feedback system is annoying
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