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My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

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Comments

  • MyherobobhopeMyherobobhope hey there, blimpy boy. Flying through the sky so fancy free.  2413Members Posts: 2,413
    Joined:  #182

    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Posted:

    Current Bag (Rebuilding as of 5/6/19)
    Driver: Adams Fast 12 LS with Matrix Black Tie (to be replaced)
    3W: Adams Fast 12 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    Hybrid: Bridgestone j40 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    4-9: Taylor Made Oversize (to be replaced)
    PW: Mizuon HMP with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    50 degree Vokey with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    56 and 60 degree Cleveland Wedges (to be replaced)
    Odyssey Tank #7 (only club I'm keeping this season)

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user Florida 6045Members Posts: 6,045
    Joined:  #183

    @Bigmean said:
    Do you find that the highest possible moi putters are the best to do that with since small misses will travel closer to the center struck distance trying to be achieved? Is it safe to presume your putter is a spider or futura type head?

    Just curious, not meant to be a total dig😀

    Guess you've got your signatures turned off. His signature says Nike Method 003, a blade (type) IIRC.

    But there are virtually no NON-perimeter weighted putters anymore. 8802 ? Bullseye ? What else do we see nowadays ?

    But I'll try this one. In all my experimentation, and I hits putts almost every day either on the course or for an hour or 2 in the stores, putters follow the same results as irons and drivers. Mallet types are better (for ME) for consistent distance and blade types are a bit easier to start the ball on line.

    I find mallets more consistent, especially on longer putts (> 20 feet or so). Starting the ball ON line I find the blade type is better. Been trying to figure out exactly why this is but that's the inevitable conclusion I've come to.

    Posted:
    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G400 19* hybrid Stiff 70 Stock shaft

    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 48*, 52* 56*, 60* DGS300
    Taylormade Tour Spider Black (Today - always subject to change LOL)
    Titleist AVX
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SC 3628Members Posts: 3,628
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 4:59pm #184

    @nsxguy said:

    @Bigmean said:
    Do you find that the highest possible moi putters are the best to do that with since small misses will travel closer to the center struck distance trying to be achieved? Is it safe to presume your putter is a spider or futura type head?

    Just curious, not meant to be a total dig😀

    Guess you've got your signatures turned off. His signature says Nike Method 003, a blade (type) IIRC.

    But there are virtually no NON-perimeter weighted putters anymore. 8802 ? Bullseye ? What else do we see nowadays ?

    But I'll try this one. In all my experimentation, and I hits putts almost every day either on the course or for an hour or 2 in the stores, putters follow the same results as irons and drivers. Mallet types are better (for ME) for consistent distance and blade types are a bit easier to start the ball on line.

    I find mallets more consistent, especially on longer putts (> 20 feet or so). Starting the ball ON line I find the blade type is better. Been trying to figure out exactly why this is but that's the inevitable conclusion I've come to.

    Well said. I think I agree with you.

    The Nike Method 003 behaves like an Odyssey Rossie. It's kind of a hefty mid-mallet disguised as an Anser.

    Posted:
    Driver: M3 w. Tensei CK Pro Orange (60-TX)
    Fairways: M6 (3w / 5w / 7w)
    Irons: 716 CB 3-P
    Wedges: SM6 53-F / 60-S
    Putter: Newport 2 Select
  • BigmeanBigmean Everything is Relative  4970Members Posts: 4,970
    Joined:  #185

    It was, just seems that if there is diminishing returns with “forgiveness” how real are the actual gains was my point. If something eventually diminishes that means it had to be working toward diminishing all along but at some point gained an acceptable compromise.

    I truly don’t have a dog on the fight, or care to other than I just see lack of open mindedness on the cb side. I find it also crazy irresponsible to not try to quantify how much the marketing And capitalistic agenda has been for a while now. Magazines used to actually be magazines....now they are mostly all commercials. Whether you realize it or not, we are all subjected to a ton of marketing pressure.

    Posted:
    Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
    Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
    Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.
  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #186

    @MelloYello said:

    @mahonie said:
    If your putting is costing you shots it’s generally an indicator that you’re under pressure from not being close enough to have a decent chance. In your stats it would be interesting to see what your proximity to the hole in regulation is. For me this is the best indicator of what areas of my game need more work.

    Yeah, you would be right but in my case this isn't a complex scenario. The guy in question is just a bad putter, haha.

    I began the year horrible at every single element of putting. I wasn't making a putt outside of about 1.5-ft. I was leaving 30-footers 15-ft short, LOL.

    Statistically I was just horrible at everything.

    Last year I had a round with 12 GIR. I didn't make a single birdie. I putted 40-something times and shot in the 80s....with 12 GIR! I remember looking back at that and counting a half-dozen or more 3-putts and a slew of short ones that should've been gimme putts. I literally gave away 8-9 shots with horrific putting.

    Earlier this year I began practicing my putting religiously knowing that playing golf was pointless if I didn't improve.

    I've now gotten to the point that I'm an "average" putter. Over the last 6 rounds, I'm putting 33.5 times per round, which is down significantly from earlier this year when I was putting 38-40 times per round.

    I'm making most of my putts inside 3-ft but still, nothing's a gimme and I routinely have rounds where I miss a couple of those. And again, my lag putting isn't the worst you've ever seen but there's a lot of "hit it and hope" still going on which means that I'm still prone to a few very unnecessary 3-putts.

    One of the reasons that a guy like me who's played 450 holes already this year isn't better than an 8-handicap is that I've only made 11 birdies this year. And of those, only 3 have been with irons.

    All 3 were off of short irons. The other 8 came on wedges and most of those involved getting up and down from beside the green on a Par-5.

    Heck, there was an instance about 2 months ago where I hit a wedge inside 2-ft a walked away with a 2-putt par.

    I hope those days are mostly behind me but I sucked at putting for a LONG time and never scored worth a **** as a result. It's just another reason why I'm so adamant that people work on score and ditch their weird obsession with how their irons look/feel.

    I used to love hitting blades on the range and working on my swing. I did that for 10 years never working on my putting at all. Consequently I may have hit a few nice iron shots during a round but I could never capitalize.

    This year I'm really trying to be a mature, responsible player focused on score. I'm worlds better for it but still not where I ought to be.

    I was struggling with my putting at a company event a few years ago and one of my colleagues suggested that I read Bob Rotella’s ‘Putting Out Of Your Mind.’ She had gone through some serious putting issues to the point where she was considering giving up the game altogether when someone gave her a copy. Within a week her putting was fixed and she dropped 3 strokes off her handicap in a month down to 7. I’ve gone from averaging 34 putts back then to 31 now. It really is worth a read.

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • dciccorittidciccoritti An inch an hour, 2 feet a day Toronto, Canada 1689Members Posts: 1,689
    Joined:  #187

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Ok well then who is it a rational decision for? You said most people and not all people. So when is a sports car or luxury car that consumes twice the amount of gas a rational decision for the few? I'm curious.

    Posted:

    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway

    • TS2
    • 716 MB 5-PW
    • MG 52 SB-09 | 56 LB-09 | 60 LB-09
    • Select Newport 2
    • ProV1x
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  • BigmeanBigmean Everything is Relative  4970Members Posts: 4,970
    Joined:  #188

    Sigs can be on????

    Can we all at least agree that this new format is horrible regardless what irons you play?

    Oddly, putting is my strong suit and I find I am a stronger distance control putter with a blade putter, but I game an answer and only have 2 bladed putters in my collection I feel I could shoot a great round with. For me, the answer is just better starting on line from 2-10, and let’s face it, that is where it counts.

    But in theory shouldn’t distance be better with less feel and more forgiveness? Taking it right down to a flat stick, Not irons. I know I am not alone here as many prefer blade putters for longer putts.

    *Plenty of tad Moore Cameron studio options outside the 8802 box.

    Posted:
    Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
    Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
    Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.
  • BigmeanBigmean Everything is Relative  4970Members Posts: 4,970
    Joined:  #189

    Actually, if the new format wasn’t so horrible and drove away so many then mods would have shut down this thread for no reason as usual so that is at least a bonus?

    Posted:
    Ryoma Maxima 9.5*/Quadra Fire Express
    913F 15*/Tour AD MT7
    Roddio 21* hybrid/Tour AD DI75
    Miura 1957 small blades/Nippon 1150 tours
    Wilson Staff V4 tour modus 130
    Mizuno MP-14/DG300-raw finish
    Buchi 50/56. RomaRo 59
    Gold's Factory custom original flat-stick amongst a couple dozen others.
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 5:29pm #190

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Awesome analogy actually ! As I had this discussion a while back with someone. Let my try to elaborate something. but let me set my stance first.
    1) Play what you like... That is my stance. I do NOT advocate one way or the other
    2) If the above is not priority, then SET priority, if score is priority build around that..... OK moving on.

    Your analogy using a car... I said I had this discussion. Years ago when I first started my business (Going W2 to 1099) I struggled like ****. I estimated $15,750 gross was the absolute minimum I needed to survive for the first year, I worked backwards busting my hump. I had a brand new BMW was a year old. Sold it ASAP to cut all expenses, sold it to a friend that had an old busted Highlander we did a trade, he gave it to me free and clear, he took over the existing loan all was square. SO I had no car expense other than gas. (minimum maintenance) I drove it for 3 years sucking it up, it was old had lots of dents ugly as **** but got me to point A & B. 3 years later the business did very well. Income start to come in and I got comfortable. I HAD the discussion with a co-worker, I wanted to treat myself and buy a new car. a $45,000 Acura. I could afford it at that point. BUT I did not need it. I was fine with the old car, no additional expenses, no benefits to gas. Just a really nice newer car. MY co-worker asked me a hellava question. If you bought it....... would it make you feel better, thus making you more productive and possible enhance your business because it made you feel better. I smiled and said YES...actually it would. It would edify the accomplishment, I love the look of it, It feels good to sit on leather seats rather than old faded, cracking seat covers, covering the deteriorated original seats. So I bought it and never looked back. Fast forward now 9 years and I have a successful business a family of 4 and had/have the ability to play golf once a week with the ability to afford it and the flexibility to run away from work.

    I did not need it, It gave me NO physical benefit, BUT it gave me a mental benefit. The Clubs and clubs selection has that ABILITY. Some people just physically can see it and feel better about it. Some people FEEL blades can force them to play better (I have zero data to prove this) BUT the mental state may be an ancillary benefit! A lot of golf is MENTAL. Confidence, shot calculation IF YOU have doubts in your shot and doubts in your committed shot.... then you are already losing strokes...

    So another "facet" to the equation is DOES it establish confidence or make you feel better or more happy about the game of golf? As golf is hard.... so any boost of confidence or joy can only be a positive right?

    Posted:
    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • MyherobobhopeMyherobobhope hey there, blimpy boy. Flying through the sky so fancy free.  2413Members Posts: 2,413
    Joined:  #191

    @Exactice808 said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Awesome analogy actually ! As I had this discussion a while back with someone. Let my try to elaborate something. but let me set my stance first.
    1) Play what you like... That is my stance. I do NOT advocate one way or the other
    2) If the above is not priority, then SET priority, if score is priority build around that..... OK moving on.

    Your analogy using a car... I said I had this discussion. Years ago when I first started my business (Going W2 to 1099) I struggled like ****. I estimated $15,750 gross was the absolute minimum I needed to survive for the first year, I worked backwards busting my hump. I had a brand new BMW was a year old. Sold it ASAP to cut all expenses, sold it to a friend that had an old busted Highlander we did a trade, he gave it to me free and clear, he took over the existing loan all was square. SO I had no car expense other than gas. (minimum maintenance) I drove it for 3 years sucking it up, it was old had lots of dents ugly as **** but got me to point A & B. 3 years later the business did very well. Income start to come in and I got comfortable. I HAD the discussion with a co-worker, I wanted to treat myself and buy a new car. a $45,000 Acura. I could afford it at that point. BUT I did not needed it. I was fine with the old car, no additional expenses, no benefits to gas. Just a really nice newer car. MY co-worker as me a hellava question. If you bought....... would it make you feel better, thus making you more productive and possible enhance your business because it made you feel better. I smiled and said YES...actually it would. It would edify the accomplishment, I love the look of it, It feels good to sit on leather seats rather than old faded, cracking seat covers, covering the deteriorated original seats. So I bought it and never looked back. Fast forward now 9 years and I have a successful business a family of 4 and had/have the ability to play golf once a week with the ability to afford it and the flexibility to run away from work.

    I did not need it, It gave me NO physical benefit, BUT it gave me a mental benefit. The Clubs and clubs selection has that ABILITY. Some people just physically can see it and feel better about it. Some people FEEL blades can force them to play better (I have zero data to prove this) BUT the mental state may be an ancillary benefit! A lot of golf is MENTAL. Confidence, shot calculation IF YOU have doubts in your shot and doubts in your committed shot.... then you are already losing strokes...

    So another "facet" to the equation is DOES it establish confidence or make you feel better or more happy about the game of golf? As golf is hard.... so an boost of confidence or joy can only be a positive right?

    I'm down with joy. I'm down with buying things that make you happy... I also think people need to think through WHY they are buying something (be it a car or new clubs) and make sure it aligns with their needs and their goals... That's my main problem with the "I'm a 15 handicap and love my blades!" mindset... I don't think they acknowledge the downside of their choice and only think about the positive... which is fine, but I see no reason to have a thread saying "I haven't thought through my choices and neither should you!"

    Posted:

    Current Bag (Rebuilding as of 5/6/19)
    Driver: Adams Fast 12 LS with Matrix Black Tie (to be replaced)
    3W: Adams Fast 12 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    Hybrid: Bridgestone j40 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    4-9: Taylor Made Oversize (to be replaced)
    PW: Mizuon HMP with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    50 degree Vokey with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    56 and 60 degree Cleveland Wedges (to be replaced)
    Odyssey Tank #7 (only club I'm keeping this season)

  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #192

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    May not be the case in the US, but on this side of the pond you can get cars that are frugal and fun to drive at the same time. An Alfa Romeo Giulietta with a 1.6 Diesel engine that does 60mpg and is more fun to drive on a twisty road than most sports cars does exist...a car that puts a smile on your face and which you drive just for the sake of driving. You can have your cake and eat it if you know what you’re looking for.

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 5:53pm #193

    @Myherobobhope said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Awesome analogy actually ! As I had this discussion a while back with someone. Let my try to elaborate something. but let me set my stance first.
    1) Play what you like... That is my stance. I do NOT advocate one way or the other
    2) If the above is not priority, then SET priority, if score is priority build around that..... OK moving on.

    Your analogy using a car... I said I had this discussion. Years ago when I first started my business (Going W2 to 1099) I struggled like ****. I estimated $15,750 gross was the absolute minimum I needed to survive for the first year, I worked backwards busting my hump. I had a brand new BMW was a year old. Sold it ASAP to cut all expenses, sold it to a friend that had an old busted Highlander we did a trade, he gave it to me free and clear, he took over the existing loan all was square. SO I had no car expense other than gas. (minimum maintenance) I drove it for 3 years sucking it up, it was old had lots of dents ugly as **** but got me to point A & B. 3 years later the business did very well. Income start to come in and I got comfortable. I HAD the discussion with a co-worker, I wanted to treat myself and buy a new car. a $45,000 Acura. I could afford it at that point. BUT I did not needed it. I was fine with the old car, no additional expenses, no benefits to gas. Just a really nice newer car. MY co-worker as me a hellava question. If you bought....... would it make you feel better, thus making you more productive and possible enhance your business because it made you feel better. I smiled and said YES...actually it would. It would edify the accomplishment, I love the look of it, It feels good to sit on leather seats rather than old faded, cracking seat covers, covering the deteriorated original seats. So I bought it and never looked back. Fast forward now 9 years and I have a successful business a family of 4 and had/have the ability to play golf once a week with the ability to afford it and the flexibility to run away from work.

    I did not need it, It gave me NO physical benefit, BUT it gave me a mental benefit. The Clubs and clubs selection has that ABILITY. Some people just physically can see it and feel better about it. Some people FEEL blades can force them to play better (I have zero data to prove this) BUT the mental state may be an ancillary benefit! A lot of golf is MENTAL. Confidence, shot calculation IF YOU have doubts in your shot and doubts in your committed shot.... then you are already losing strokes...

    So another "facet" to the equation is DOES it establish confidence or make you feel better or more happy about the game of golf? As golf is hard.... so an boost of confidence or joy can only be a positive right?

    I'm down with joy. I'm down with buying things that make you happy... I also think people need to think through WHY they are buying something (be it a car or new clubs) and make sure it aligns with their needs and their goals... That's my main problem with the "I'm a 15 handicap and love my blades!" mindset... I don't think they acknowledge the downside of their choice and only think about the positive... which is fine, but I see no reason to have a thread saying "I haven't thought through my choices and neither should you!"

    And That is where this discussion goes haywire.

    1) GolfWRX I treat this place as a place of knowledgeable experts. IF we took the time to sign up for an account and post. Then you must know your game decently.
    2) When I first signed UP. I was a 30+hdcp dropping, I reached a 15 mid handicap range per say, LIED to myself, played blades back then thinking I was good enough and I WAS NO where near good enough (I did all the lies, made me focus better, I had a great iron game just terrible driver, short game and putter, all the lies of a typical mid capper trying to play blades). 6 years later on GolfWRX learning my way about shots, launch characteristics etc educating myself about golf, got down as low as a 7 alternated between my AP2 and current Corba's because I chose to. Thats it.

    NOW current. We come on a forum have a discussion I am currently a 15 on any given day because of the gross reduction in golf play( I know the only way I can get better is by shear practice and play)..... But I still play Blades. I come on the forums and give my justification and GET ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED attacked personally and then told I am wrong, and even told "if you disagree I wont listen to you" Kinda sad.... I debate with data and facts and personal experience while still maintaining that you play what you want. But thats the kind of answer we get.....

    The REST of the golf world outside of GolfWRX (when I say that I mean , amateurs not people in the golf industries) likely does NOT have the knowledge, experience or data to edify their stance, BUT here I have a higher respect and credibility to discuss, YET......... for whatever reason..... the response is very strong and demeaning unfortunately basically personal..... That is more the disappointing part of it all.

    We all have great experience to share. Rather than attacking personally try to HELP the person, I am more times WRONG than right I accept that. BUT I am more than happy and willing to listen and learn. BUT when you are attacked personally sometimes the response is to defend and then get defensive in your response... natural human instinct

    Posted:
    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • MyherobobhopeMyherobobhope hey there, blimpy boy. Flying through the sky so fancy free.  2413Members Posts: 2,413
    Joined:  #194

    @Exactice808 said:

    @Myherobobhope said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Awesome analogy actually ! As I had this discussion a while back with someone. Let my try to elaborate something. but let me set my stance first.
    1) Play what you like... That is my stance. I do NOT advocate one way or the other
    2) If the above is not priority, then SET priority, if score is priority build around that..... OK moving on.

    Your analogy using a car... I said I had this discussion. Years ago when I first started my business (Going W2 to 1099) I struggled like ****. I estimated $15,750 gross was the absolute minimum I needed to survive for the first year, I worked backwards busting my hump. I had a brand new BMW was a year old. Sold it ASAP to cut all expenses, sold it to a friend that had an old busted Highlander we did a trade, he gave it to me free and clear, he took over the existing loan all was square. SO I had no car expense other than gas. (minimum maintenance) I drove it for 3 years sucking it up, it was old had lots of dents ugly as **** but got me to point A & B. 3 years later the business did very well. Income start to come in and I got comfortable. I HAD the discussion with a co-worker, I wanted to treat myself and buy a new car. a $45,000 Acura. I could afford it at that point. BUT I did not needed it. I was fine with the old car, no additional expenses, no benefits to gas. Just a really nice newer car. MY co-worker as me a hellava question. If you bought....... would it make you feel better, thus making you more productive and possible enhance your business because it made you feel better. I smiled and said YES...actually it would. It would edify the accomplishment, I love the look of it, It feels good to sit on leather seats rather than old faded, cracking seat covers, covering the deteriorated original seats. So I bought it and never looked back. Fast forward now 9 years and I have a successful business a family of 4 and had/have the ability to play golf once a week with the ability to afford it and the flexibility to run away from work.

    I did not need it, It gave me NO physical benefit, BUT it gave me a mental benefit. The Clubs and clubs selection has that ABILITY. Some people just physically can see it and feel better about it. Some people FEEL blades can force them to play better (I have zero data to prove this) BUT the mental state may be an ancillary benefit! A lot of golf is MENTAL. Confidence, shot calculation IF YOU have doubts in your shot and doubts in your committed shot.... then you are already losing strokes...

    So another "facet" to the equation is DOES it establish confidence or make you feel better or more happy about the game of golf? As golf is hard.... so an boost of confidence or joy can only be a positive right?

    I'm down with joy. I'm down with buying things that make you happy... I also think people need to think through WHY they are buying something (be it a car or new clubs) and make sure it aligns with their needs and their goals... That's my main problem with the "I'm a 15 handicap and love my blades!" mindset... I don't think they acknowledge the downside of their choice and only think about the positive... which is fine, but I see no reason to have a thread saying "I haven't thought through my choices and neither should you!"

    And That is where this discussion goes haywire.

    1) GolfWRX I treat this place as a place of knowledgeable experts. IF we took the time to sign up for an account and post. Then you must know your game decently.
    2) When I first signed UP. I was a 30+hdcp dropping, I reached a 15 mid handicap range per say, LIED to myself, played blades back then thinking I was good enough and I WAS NO where near good enough (I did all the lies, made me focus better, I had a great iron game just terrible driver, short game and putter, all the lies of a typical mid capper trying to play blades). 6 years later on GolfWRX learning my way about shots, launch characteristics etc educating myself about golf, got down as low as a 7 alternated between my AP2 and current Corba's because I chose to. Thats it.

    NOW current. We come on a forum have a discussion I am currently a 15 on any given day because of the gross reduction in golf play( I know the only way I can get better is by shear practice and play)..... But I still play Blades. I come on the forums and give my justification and GET ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED attacked personally and then told I am wrong, and even told "if you disagree I wont listen to you" Kinda sad.... I debate with data and facts and personal experience while still maintaining that you play what you want. But thats the kind of answer we get.....

    The REST of the golf world outside of GolfWRX (when I say that I mean , amateurs not people in the golf industries) likely does NOT have the knowledge, experience or data to edify their stance, BUT here I have a higher respect and credibility to discuss, YET......... for whatever reason..... the response is very strong and demeaning unfortunately basically personal..... That is more the disappointing part of it all.

    We all have great experience to share. Rather than attacking personally try to HELP the person, I am more times WRONG than right I accept that. BUT I am more than happy and willing to listen and learn. BUT when you are attacked personally sometimes the response is to defend and then get defensive in your response... natural human instinct

    Ha, please don't take my comments personally. I don't care what you play. I'm happy to hear and listen to why to play blades, and I'm glad they work for you... but "I'm a 15 handicap, here's why blades are the best choice for my game" is a different conversation than "Blades make your game better regardless of handicap, swing type or sport you are playing". To continue to passively aggressively attack blade players, go read the first post in the thread that started this nonsense. It does not have data, it's just like, his opinion, man.
    I'm playing 22 year old irons that I did not get fit for when I bought them used... I'm an 8 handicap, I've been a 4 handicap with the same clubs. I've been a 12 handicap when I didn't have time to practice with them. I'm honestly not sure where they'd rank against today's clubs in forgiveness... They aren't holding me back (much) from lowering my scores... I do think I need to be fit and get into something I'm 100% comfortable with... but that's a me problem.

    Posted:

    Current Bag (Rebuilding as of 5/6/19)
    Driver: Adams Fast 12 LS with Matrix Black Tie (to be replaced)
    3W: Adams Fast 12 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    Hybrid: Bridgestone j40 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    4-9: Taylor Made Oversize (to be replaced)
    PW: Mizuon HMP with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    50 degree Vokey with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    56 and 60 degree Cleveland Wedges (to be replaced)
    Odyssey Tank #7 (only club I'm keeping this season)

  • duffer987duffer987 I'm oot. Canadian in California 9417Members Posts: 9,417
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 6:27pm #195

    @mahonie said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    May not be the case in the US, but on this side of the pond you can get cars that are frugal and fun to drive at the same time. An Alfa Romeo Giulietta with a 1.6 Diesel engine that does 60mpg and is more fun to drive on a twisty road than most sports cars does exist...a car that puts a smile on your face and which you drive just for the sake of driving. You can have your cake and eat it if you know what you’re looking for.

    That MPG commute analogy is all over the shop, conflating cost of A to B with 'enjoyment'. They are not the same thing.
    Petrol cost/running costs is akin to playing a high-end expensive course vs a cheap muni.

    The 'enjoyment' analogy is akin to a Mazda Miata vs a Nissan GTR. A simple RWD, manual transmission, limited driver aids, light car is always going to be a more visceral, seat of your pants experience compared to a modern, big-engined, teched to the hilt sports car. But no one would argue a stock 2018 GTR will lap the 'Ring faster than a stock (if any exist) 1990 Mazda Miata, the objective performance results are cut and dry. Which you enjoy more will be up to your personal tastes in regards to sporty driving.
    Here everyone agrees play and enjoy what you want in regards to club heads and yes your personal tastes wholly influence which you enjoy more. The impasse of results/performance though will never ever be rectified.

    Posted:
  • MyherobobhopeMyherobobhope hey there, blimpy boy. Flying through the sky so fancy free.  2413Members Posts: 2,413
    Joined:  #196

    @mahonie said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    May not be the case in the US, but on this side of the pond you can get cars that are frugal and fun to drive at the same time. An Alfa Romeo Giulietta with a 1.6 Diesel engine that does 60mpg and is more fun to drive on a twisty road than most sports cars does exist...a car that puts a smile on your face and which you drive just for the sake of driving. You can have your cake and eat it if you know what you’re looking for.

    I think this exemplifies what people SHOULD be doing... figure out what you need out of a golf club to play your best game, and then figure out how to get it fit into the package that you want. I'd say that going to a good fitter and getting expert advice on what irons you need is one of the best investments of time and money you can make as a golfer. Especially a higher handicap.
    It's actually a problem that is somewhat driving me crazy right now, as I currently have the time and access to a good fitter but lack the cash on hand to buy a new driver right NOW. I've done enough tinkering on ebay and the BST to be done throwing money at clubs that "might" lower my spin and improve my control...

    Posted:

    Current Bag (Rebuilding as of 5/6/19)
    Driver: Adams Fast 12 LS with Matrix Black Tie (to be replaced)
    3W: Adams Fast 12 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    Hybrid: Bridgestone j40 with Excalibur (to be replaced)
    4-9: Taylor Made Oversize (to be replaced)
    PW: Mizuon HMP with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    50 degree Vokey with DG120 Stiff (5/6)
    56 and 60 degree Cleveland Wedges (to be replaced)
    Odyssey Tank #7 (only club I'm keeping this season)

  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 6:43pm #197

    @Myherobobhope said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @Myherobobhope said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Awesome analogy actually ! As I had this discussion a while back with someone. Let my try to elaborate something. but let me set my stance first.
    1) Play what you like... That is my stance. I do NOT advocate one way or the other
    2) If the above is not priority, then SET priority, if score is priority build around that..... OK moving on.

    Your analogy using a car... I said I had this discussion. Years ago when I first started my business (Going W2 to 1099) I struggled like ****. I estimated $15,750 gross was the absolute minimum I needed to survive for the first year, I worked backwards busting my hump. I had a brand new BMW was a year old. Sold it ASAP to cut all expenses, sold it to a friend that had an old busted Highlander we did a trade, he gave it to me free and clear, he took over the existing loan all was square. SO I had no car expense other than gas. (minimum maintenance) I drove it for 3 years sucking it up, it was old had lots of dents ugly as **** but got me to point A & B. 3 years later the business did very well. Income start to come in and I got comfortable. I HAD the discussion with a co-worker, I wanted to treat myself and buy a new car. a $45,000 Acura. I could afford it at that point. BUT I did not needed it. I was fine with the old car, no additional expenses, no benefits to gas. Just a really nice newer car. MY co-worker as me a hellava question. If you bought....... would it make you feel better, thus making you more productive and possible enhance your business because it made you feel better. I smiled and said YES...actually it would. It would edify the accomplishment, I love the look of it, It feels good to sit on leather seats rather than old faded, cracking seat covers, covering the deteriorated original seats. So I bought it and never looked back. Fast forward now 9 years and I have a successful business a family of 4 and had/have the ability to play golf once a week with the ability to afford it and the flexibility to run away from work.

    I did not need it, It gave me NO physical benefit, BUT it gave me a mental benefit. The Clubs and clubs selection has that ABILITY. Some people just physically can see it and feel better about it. Some people FEEL blades can force them to play better (I have zero data to prove this) BUT the mental state may be an ancillary benefit! A lot of golf is MENTAL. Confidence, shot calculation IF YOU have doubts in your shot and doubts in your committed shot.... then you are already losing strokes...

    So another "facet" to the equation is DOES it establish confidence or make you feel better or more happy about the game of golf? As golf is hard.... so an boost of confidence or joy can only be a positive right?

    I'm down with joy. I'm down with buying things that make you happy... I also think people need to think through WHY they are buying something (be it a car or new clubs) and make sure it aligns with their needs and their goals... That's my main problem with the "I'm a 15 handicap and love my blades!" mindset... I don't think they acknowledge the downside of their choice and only think about the positive... which is fine, but I see no reason to have a thread saying "I haven't thought through my choices and neither should you!"

    And That is where this discussion goes haywire.

    1) GolfWRX I treat this place as a place of knowledgeable experts. IF we took the time to sign up for an account and post. Then you must know your game decently.
    2) When I first signed UP. I was a 30+hdcp dropping, I reached a 15 mid handicap range per say, LIED to myself, played blades back then thinking I was good enough and I WAS NO where near good enough (I did all the lies, made me focus better, I had a great iron game just terrible driver, short game and putter, all the lies of a typical mid capper trying to play blades). 6 years later on GolfWRX learning my way about shots, launch characteristics etc educating myself about golf, got down as low as a 7 alternated between my AP2 and current Corba's because I chose to. Thats it.

    NOW current. We come on a forum have a discussion I am currently a 15 on any given day because of the gross reduction in golf play( I know the only way I can get better is by shear practice and play)..... But I still play Blades. I come on the forums and give my justification and GET ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED attacked personally and then told I am wrong, and even told "if you disagree I wont listen to you" Kinda sad.... I debate with data and facts and personal experience while still maintaining that you play what you want. But thats the kind of answer we get.....

    The REST of the golf world outside of GolfWRX (when I say that I mean , amateurs not people in the golf industries) likely does NOT have the knowledge, experience or data to edify their stance, BUT here I have a higher respect and credibility to discuss, YET......... for whatever reason..... the response is very strong and demeaning unfortunately basically personal..... That is more the disappointing part of it all.

    We all have great experience to share. Rather than attacking personally try to HELP the person, I am more times WRONG than right I accept that. BUT I am more than happy and willing to listen and learn. BUT when you are attacked personally sometimes the response is to defend and then get defensive in your response... natural human instinct

    Ha, please don't take my comments personally. I don't care what you play. I'm happy to hear and listen to why to play blades, and I'm glad they work for you... but "I'm a 15 handicap, here's why blades are the best choice for my game" is a different conversation than "Blades make your game better regardless of handicap, swing type or sport you are playing". To continue to passively aggressively attack blade players, go read the first post in the thread that started this nonsense. It does not have data, it's just like, his opinion, man.
    I'm playing 22 year old irons that I did not get fit for when I bought them used... I'm an 8 handicap, I've been a 4 handicap with the same clubs. I've been a 12 handicap when I didn't have time to practice with them. I'm honestly not sure where they'd rank against today's clubs in forgiveness... They aren't holding me back (much) from lowering my scores... I do think I need to be fit and get into something I'm 100% comfortable with... but that's a me problem.

    NO NO not indicating you at all! Other threads and Many years ago, Ive been around long enough... The only real difference is I DID educate myself the best I could to make sense of things.......

    Not picking on anyone but just go to another thread.. I just posted something and I got hammered about something that I assumes was obvious..... but I expected too much. I could be a jerk and attack the individuals character but instead I would rather just explain to them and its up to them if the understand or not.... Its up to them if they take it a personal attack or if its honestly to share info and data.

    Its just sad some people would rather be right and prove someone wrong instead of sharing data to make EVERYONE better!

    Posted:
    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user Florida 6045Members Posts: 6,045
    Joined:  #198

    @Bigmean said:
    Sigs can be on????

    Can we all at least agree that this new format is horrible regardless what irons you play?

    Oddly, putting is my strong suit and I find I am a stronger distance control putter with a blade putter, but I game an answer and only have 2 bladed putters in my collection I feel I could shoot a great round with. For me, the answer is just better starting on line from 2-10, and let’s face it, that is where it counts.

    But in theory shouldn’t distance be better with less feel and more forgiveness? Taking it right down to a flat stick, Not irons. I know I am not alone here as many prefer blade putters for longer putts.

    *Plenty of tad Moore Cameron studio options outside the 8802 box.

    That's a "Roger" on the sigs. (Edit profile/signature settings (UNDER your signature))

    Best putter in my old club couldn't hit a solid full swing shot 1 out of 5 times but he used a true blade type putter and he was deadly. Played with an old friend and 2 of his friends and before the round he told me "Watch Joe. Best putter I've ever seen". Joe putted with an old 8802 and while I'm not sure i'd say he was the best (18 holes is too small a sample size) he was awfully good with it.

    Just as there is a divide on irons there is a (somewhat) similar divide on putters. My observations are purely anecdotal but I probably hit putts more than most on the site. And it is ME and i don't consider myself a particularly good putter (for my 'cap ?).

    But similarly there are only a few(?) different ways of making a very good full swing. There are hundreds of ways of gripping and stroking a putt. If any phase of the game is totally up to how the player wants to do something it's putting.

    That said you have to wonder about how few (true) blade type putters you see at the highest level. Offhand I can only think of Corey's Bullseye. Do any of the top 10 on any Tour play a putter with NO heel-toe weighting ? I can't recall seeing one.

    And perhaps it is just I who has some alignment issues with mallets ? But to me, mallets are clearly more forgiving on mishits. It shows itself more on distance putts but it's there on shorter ones as well. Can one suggest that proper speed on that hard breaking 4 footer from above the hole be anything less than critical in making or missing the putt ?

    Putting for most putts is a combination of line AND speed, no ?

    But again, preference is KING, especially in putting.

    Posted:
    Callaway Epic 10.5 Project X Hzrdus Yellow 63 gr, 6.0
    Adams A12 Pro hybrids, 16*, Aldila VS Proto Stiff
    Ping G400 19* hybrid Stiff 70 Stock shaft

    Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300
    Ping Glide Forged 48*, 52* 56*, 60* DGS300
    Taylormade Tour Spider Black (Today - always subject to change LOL)
    Titleist AVX
  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #199

    @duffer987 said:

    @mahonie said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    May not be the case in the US, but on this side of the pond you can get cars that are frugal and fun to drive at the same time. An Alfa Romeo Giulietta with a 1.6 Diesel engine that does 60mpg and is more fun to drive on a twisty road than most sports cars does exist...a car that puts a smile on your face and which you drive just for the sake of driving. You can have your cake and eat it if you know what you’re looking for.

    That MPG commute analogy is all over the shop, conflating cost of A to B with 'enjoyment'. They are not the same thing.
    Petrol cost/running costs is akin to playing a high-end expensive course vs a cheap muni.

    The 'enjoyment' analogy is akin to a Mazda Miata vs a Nissan GTR. A simple RWD, manual transmission, limited driver aids, light car is always going to be a more visceral, seat of your pants experience compared to a modern, big-engined, teched to the hilt sports car. But no one would argue a stock 2018 GTR will lap the 'Ring faster than a stock (if any exist) 1990 Mazda Miata, the objective performance results are cut and dry. Which you enjoy more will be up to your personal tastes in regards to sporty driving.
    Here everyone agrees play and enjoy what you want in regards to club heads and yes your personal tastes wholly influence which you enjoy more. The impasse of results/performance though will never ever be rectified.

    I would argue that with a Mazda Miata (or MX5 in UK parlance) the enjoyment and level of satisfaction that you get out of the drive depends on how much you personally put into it and your level of skill. Yes you get enjoyment out of the GTR and it will be faster round the ‘Ring, but is it the same enjoyment level as the Miata and have you got the same level of personal satisfaction? Also, put the GTR against a Miata on a narrow, twisty country road in the UK and it will not be able to keep up, particularly if the Miata driver has a certain level of skill and the road is particularly twisty.

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
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    Radius Classic 8
  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #200

    @Myherobobhope said:

    @mahonie said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    May not be the case in the US, but on this side of the pond you can get cars that are frugal and fun to drive at the same time. An Alfa Romeo Giulietta with a 1.6 Diesel engine that does 60mpg and is more fun to drive on a twisty road than most sports cars does exist...a car that puts a smile on your face and which you drive just for the sake of driving. You can have your cake and eat it if you know what you’re looking for.

    I think this exemplifies what people SHOULD be doing... figure out what you need out of a golf club to play your best game, and then figure out how to get it fit into the package that you want. I'd say that going to a good fitter and getting expert advice on what irons you need is one of the best investments of time and money you can make as a golfer. Especially a higher handicap.
    It's actually a problem that is somewhat driving me crazy right now, as I currently have the time and access to a good fitter but lack the cash on hand to buy a new driver right NOW. I've done enough tinkering on ebay and the BST to be done throwing money at clubs that "might" lower my spin and improve my control...

    This is exactly what I did. I had a set of clubs that I was reasonably happy with that I had bought off the shelf. I went to fitting just to confirm that what I was playing was right for me. After working out that the shaft I was playing at the time was fine, Rifle 5.5, we looked at clubheads. Tried the Mizuno JPX 800 (I think) which according to the fitter, ‘suited my handicap.’ However, the numbers weren’t great. I asked if I could try the Nike VR Pro blades but was told that I ‘couldn’t hit’ those at my 12 handicap. Nevertheless, he set them up and I hit them so much better than the JPXs and my clubs of the time. He actually said that I hit them better than he could and he was a 4 handicap just sitting his PGA exams. However, influenced by marketing, I bought Nike VR Split Cavities and I stayed at a 12 handicap until I bought the MP4s.

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • bodhi555bodhi555  885Members Posts: 885
    Joined:  #201

    @MelloYello said:

    @bodhi555 said:
    They also mean when I put it closer than 15 feet away on my approach it's skill rather than luck - but then if I considered close approached to be luck I'd probably be shopping for a fishing rod rather than a set of irons.

    This is a perfect example of what I'd call the "hubris of the hacker."

    The hacker looks at his best shots and believe that's who he really is. The bad swings are somehow not "really" who he is.

    I could throw down 5 balls in the flattest portion of the fairway. Let's say you have a perfect number for a 7-iron with no wind whatsoever.

    Even as a low-handicap player you wouldn't be hitting the green with all 5 of those balls.

    I'm sure you want to take all the credit for that one ball that ends up 5-ft from the cup. Sure, you can do that. But you also have to take credit for the one that ends up 30-ft from the cup or the one you pulled left into the bunker.

    This is why we look at proximity to the pin. And I promise you that your proximity to the pin with a 7-iron (even from ideal conditions) is not going to be 15-ft.

    Now if you were in complete control you'd hit them all to 5-ft. But you weren't.

    What controls the stuff we don't control? Call it fate. Call it fortune. Call it luck. Call it whatever.

    But it's governed by probabilities.

    So if you played a round of golf and came to that same spot in the fairway and happened to stick it close I'd say, great shot. But some portion of that was good fortune. You hit the 1-out-of-5 kind of shot.

    That's not offensive. That's simply statistics. That's how golf works.

    Or maybe you're the guy who always hits his 7-iron to 5-ft, IDK.

    It's not offensive in the slightest, just seems a bit of a negative attitude to say executing a shot perfectly is down to luck, and not down to the skills that the golfer has learned over x years they have been playing. But you may notice from the description of my round earlier, I will own terrible executions just as much as I will the 7 iron I left tap in range away. Every time I'm standing over the ball I'm trying to hit the 1 in 5 shot and do what I can to get the ball as close to the stick as possible, and I practice to a) see if I can get that up to 2 in 5, and b) minimise the damage of the 1 of 5 that is not what I intended in the slightest :lol:

    Posted:
    The Dee Three: Titleist 917 D3 9.5 degree - Aldila Rogue Max 65X
    The Stenson: Titleist 917 F3 15 degree - Aldila Rogue Max 75X
    The Walking Stick: Titleist 818 H2 19 degree - Aldila Rogue Max 85X
    The Blades: Nike VR Pro 4i - PW - DG S400 TI Shaft
    The Rusties: Nike Engage 50, 54 Square Sole, 58 Toe Sweep
    The Putter: Nike "The Oven" Method 003
    Balls: Nike RZN Tour Black/Platinum, Bridgestone Tour B XS, Titleist AVX
    Bag: Sun Mountain Four Five


  • kiwihackerkiwihacker  736Members Posts: 736
    Joined:  #202

    @bodhi555 said:
    Looking at the original marketing material for Nike's VR range, it looks as if the Pro Blades were originally intended for single figure handicappers and below, so as I've been off single figures for give or take 20 years or so I'm pretty confident they are the right clubs for me - they've been fully fitted with the shaft that works best . However I can't say I find them particularly unforgiving, but then their MPF is remarkably similar to a set of 718 CB's, so given how much they've been praised on this thread for how much help they give, this is hardly surprising.

    They also mean when I put it closer than 15 feet away on my approach it's skill rather than luck - but then if I considered close approached to be luck I'd probably be shopping for a fishing rod rather than a set of irons.

    In fact I played 18 yesterday in our Bank Holiday Stableford, and went round in a rather disappointing 84. Afterwards I started to look through what I'd played and what cost me, and it came to:

    Closer than 3 foot putts missed - 4
    Bad bounce putting me into a tree - 2 (admittedly I should have taken 3 wood rather than Driver, but ended with double rather than par)
    Hitting a full wedge rather than 3/4 - 2 (missing long with a blade, that shouldn't happen Shirley? :))
    2 hole phase of chunking approaches - 3 shots
    Landing a chip a foot too close to an evil pin position that meant that extra foot past the hole took it off the green - 1 shot

    So apart from a chunk with my 8 iron, my choice of irons are not what caused me to score higher than intended. My old man always said it was the soft bit on the end of the club that was the issue, and given the bulk of the shots were given away through putting/concentration issues, I would say that is where I need to pay attention.

    Unless you are suggesting a 718 CB will let me get away with hitting the ground 2 inches before the ball as I've stopped rotating on the way through?

    Totally agree. I tried blades and my experience was exactly the same. Lost shots are not usually down to the type of irons you're playing. Unless, as you say, they've invented an iron that will still produce a good shot hitting the ground 2 inches behind the ball. LOL

    Posted:
    Cobra King F9  Driver 10.5° Atmos Blue 6 stiff
    17° Callaway X Hot 4 wood
    20.5°& 23° Cleveland DST Launcher hybrids
    Taylormade R7 TP 4-PW irons
    Cleveland RTX 2 52°/10°, RTX 3 58°/9°
    Ping Anser Sigma 2 putter
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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5551Members Posts: 5,551
    Joined:  #203

    Ya know, one thing that seems clear to me in reading these threads is the difference in perception about "lost strokes" amongst players of various abilities. A single shot lost or saved is a pretty big deal for a low single, scratch, or plus player...especially in tournament play. Double bogey avoidance is really HUGE.

    I'd imagine that the purely recreational mid to high cap isn't losing much sleep about shooting 89 instead of 87, though I'll acknowledge that everyone's mindset is potentially different.

    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SC 3628Members Posts: 3,628
    Joined:  edited May 7, 2019 9:52pm #204

    @bodhi555 said:

    It's not offensive in the slightest, just seems a bit of a negative attitude to say executing a shot perfectly is down to luck, and not down to the skills that the golfer has learned over x years they have been playing. But you may notice from the description of my round earlier, I will own terrible executions just as much as I will the 7 iron I left tap in range away. Every time I'm standing over the ball I'm trying to hit the 1 in 5 shot and do what I can to get the ball as close to the stick as possible, and I practice to a) see if I can get that up to 2 in 5, and b) minimise the damage of the 1 of 5 that is not what I intended in the slightest :lol:

    I just view this more in the abstract.

    Read my post again and think about it. Let's say you get to hit 5 shots from perfect conditions. The goal is to hole one for a $1M prize. There is literally no reason to worry about making any other score than an ace. You get 5 swings with 1 simple goal in mind...hole out and return to WRX to start a thread!

    I understand that real golf is different than a hole-in-one competition. We might try to play safe or whatever. We might think about score. We might aim away from a pin. I'm just trying to set up a simple scenario where you have a basic goal in mind.

    Okay, so you make 5 swings. Variation will exist in those shots. We both agree on that. The difference between your intention (holing out) and what actually happens is by definition unintended.

    It seems logical to me to say that anything which is unintended is, not a mistake per se, but certainly out of our control. If it were in our control, we would've done something to improve on the miss, right!?

    So in this example, literally every shot that wasn't an Ace was a mistake of some sort. Hence golf being a game of misses, right? Hardy har har.

    Anyhow, I define skill as a constant thing you have. It's the probability you'll hit it here or there on a given shot.

    So when you stick it close, that is the product of many things which help determine a larger thing we call skill. When you hit it in the bunker that's also a product of all those same things that inform your overall skill. When you hit the green, when you miss the green...the more we hit, the more we see a cloud of points emerge to reflect your "skill."

    Here, the term skill is much like heat. Things can be hot or cold, but nevertheless we measure a thing called heat (aka temperature). Similarly, individual shots can be good or bad, but each one is a random sample from a larger thing we call skill.

    And I say "random" sample here because again, if you're trying to hole out and you don't...every inch by which you miss is out of your control and by definition unintended.

    Whether it was a swing fault or a random gust of breeze...it was all stuff you were "hoping" would fall in your favor.

    When I draw a random card from a deck I have a 12/52 chance of drawing a face card. This isn't something a person can practice so I'll never improve on those odds. I can't do any better than that. If I draw a King on my 4th try, we don't say that I demonstrated my skill better on the 3rd try. It's just happened randomly.

    What random means here is that as we extend these draws to infinity (replacing the card and shuffling the deck each time) we would see my "skill" of drawing a face card slowly close in on a percentage that looked like 12/52 = 23.08%.

    Are we doing anything differently in golf?

    No!

    While we can certainly improve on our odds through practice, there stills exists a landscape of probabilities the moment before we swing. We can never escape randomness here. We can practice until bad swings are rare, but we aren't in "control" of them the way we think.

    As a result of bad shots, players get mad and take it out on themselves. It's truly sad when you think about how out of your control it all really is. Not to sound fatalist, but a great deal of one's score is pretty much pre-decided in accordance with things like skill, energy level, course knowledge, etc.

    So in my mind it's just kind of delusional and nonsensical to call one's best shots a demonstration of their skill when literally every shot is so.

    The fact we so often think of our best shots as somehow holding a higher place is evidence of how incredibly naive we really are. We trick ourselves.

    Posted:
    Driver: M3 w. Tensei CK Pro Orange (60-TX)
    Fairways: M6 (3w / 5w / 7w)
    Irons: 716 CB 3-P
    Wedges: SM6 53-F / 60-S
    Putter: Newport 2 Select
  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #205

    @MelloYello said:

    @bodhi555 said:

    It's not offensive in the slightest, just seems a bit of a negative attitude to say executing a shot perfectly is down to luck, and not down to the skills that the golfer has learned over x years they have been playing. But you may notice from the description of my round earlier, I will own terrible executions just as much as I will the 7 iron I left tap in range away. Every time I'm standing over the ball I'm trying to hit the 1 in 5 shot and do what I can to get the ball as close to the stick as possible, and I practice to a) see if I can get that up to 2 in 5, and b) minimise the damage of the 1 of 5 that is not what I intended in the slightest :lol:

    I just view this more in the abstract.

    Read my post again and think about it. Let's say you get to hit 5 shots from perfect conditions. The goal is to hole one for a $1M prize. There is literally no reason to worry about making any other score than an ace. You get 5 swings with 1 simple goal in mind...hole out and return to WRX to start a thread!

    I understand that real golf is different than a hole-in-one competition. We might try to play safe or whatever. We might think about score. We might aim away from a pin. I'm just trying to set up a simple scenario where you have a basic goal in mind.

    Okay, so you make 5 swings. Variation will exist in those shots. We both agree on that. The difference between your intention (holing out) and what actually happens is by definition unintended.

    It seems logical to me to say that anything which is unintended is, not a mistake per se, but certainly out of our control. If it were in our control, we would've done something to improve on the miss, right!?

    So in this example, literally every shot that wasn't an Ace was a mistake of some sort. Hence golf being a game of misses, right? Hardy har har.

    Anyhow, I define skill as a constant thing you have. It's the probability you'll hit it here or there on a given shot.

    So when you stick it close, that is the product of many things which help determine a larger thing we call skill. When you hit it in the bunker that's also a product of all those same things that inform your overall skill. When you hit the green, when you miss the green...the more we hit, the more we see a cloud of points emerge to reflect your "skill."

    Here, the term skill is much like heat. Things can be hot or cold, but nevertheless we measure a thing called heat (aka temperature). Similarly, individual shots can be good or bad, but each one is a random sample from a larger thing we call skill.

    And I say "random" sample here because again, if you're trying to hole out and you don't...every inch by which you miss is out of your control and by definition unintended.

    Whether it was a swing fault or a random gust of breeze...it was all stuff you were "hoping" would fall in your favor.

    When I draw a random card from a deck I have a 12/52 chance of drawing a face card. This isn't something a person can practice so I'll never improve on those odds. I can't do any better than that. If I draw a King on my 4th try, we don't say that I demonstrated my skill better on the 3rd try. It's just happened randomly.

    What random means here is that as we extend these draws to infinity (replacing the card and shuffling the deck each time) we would see my "skill" of drawing a face card slowly close in on a percentage that looked like 12/52 = 23.08%.

    Are we doing anything differently in golf?

    No!

    While we can certainly improve on our odds through practice, there stills exists a landscape of probabilities the moment before we swing. We can never escape randomness here. We can practice until bad swings are rare, but we aren't in "control" of them the way we think.

    As a result of bad shots, players get mad and take it out on themselves. It's truly sad when you think about how out of your control it all really is. Not to sound fatalist, but a great deal of one's score is pretty much pre-decided in accordance with things like skill, energy level, course knowledge, etc.

    So in my mind it's just kind of delusional and nonsensical to call one's best shots a demonstration of their skill when literally every shot is so.

    The fact we so often think of our best shots as somehow holding a higher place is evidence of how incredibly naive we really are. We trick ourselves.

    Pick your way through this one: (it’s a great watch)

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
  • gvogelgvogel  7926Members Posts: 7,926
    Joined:  #206

    @MelloYello said:

    @bodhi555 said:
    They also mean when I put it closer than 15 feet away on my approach it's skill rather than luck - but then if I considered close approached to be luck I'd probably be shopping for a fishing rod rather than a set of irons.

    This is a perfect example of what I'd call the "hubris of the hacker."

    The hacker looks at his best shots and believe that's who he really is. The bad swings are somehow not "really" who he is.

    I could throw down 5 balls in the flattest portion of the fairway. Let's say you have a perfect number for a 7-iron with no wind whatsoever.

    Even as a low-handicap player you wouldn't be hitting the green with all 5 of those balls.

    I'm sure you want to take all the credit for that one ball that ends up 5-ft from the cup. Sure, you can do that. But you also have to take credit for the one that ends up 30-ft from the cup or the one you pulled left into the bunker.

    This is why we look at proximity to the pin. And I promise you that your proximity to the pin with a 7-iron (even from ideal conditions) is not going to be 15-ft.

    Now if you were in complete control you'd hit them all to 5-ft. But you weren't.

    What controls the stuff we don't control? Call it fate. Call it fortune. Call it luck. Call it whatever.

    But it's governed by probabilities.

    So if you played a round of golf and came to that same spot in the fairway and happened to stick it close I'd say, great shot. But some portion of that was good fortune. You hit the 1-out-of-5 kind of shot.

    That's not offensive. That's simply statistics. That's how golf works.

    Or maybe you're the guy who always hits his 7-iron to 5-ft, IDK.

    Or the other "hubris of the hacker" is the guy who buys blades thinking that by practicing with them, he'll become a better ball striker. So he starts practicing a lot, and becomes a better ball striker. But he had done the same practice with a player's cavity back, or even a GI like an AP1 or Ping G series, he would have become a better ball striker. It's the practice that counts.

    Posted:
    Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #207

    @gvogel said:

    @MelloYello said:

    @bodhi555 said:
    They also mean when I put it closer than 15 feet away on my approach it's skill rather than luck - but then if I considered close approached to be luck I'd probably be shopping for a fishing rod rather than a set of irons.

    This is a perfect example of what I'd call the "hubris of the hacker."

    The hacker looks at his best shots and believe that's who he really is. The bad swings are somehow not "really" who he is.

    I could throw down 5 balls in the flattest portion of the fairway. Let's say you have a perfect number for a 7-iron with no wind whatsoever.

    Even as a low-handicap player you wouldn't be hitting the green with all 5 of those balls.

    I'm sure you want to take all the credit for that one ball that ends up 5-ft from the cup. Sure, you can do that. But you also have to take credit for the one that ends up 30-ft from the cup or the one you pulled left into the bunker.

    This is why we look at proximity to the pin. And I promise you that your proximity to the pin with a 7-iron (even from ideal conditions) is not going to be 15-ft.

    Now if you were in complete control you'd hit them all to 5-ft. But you weren't.

    What controls the stuff we don't control? Call it fate. Call it fortune. Call it luck. Call it whatever.

    But it's governed by probabilities.

    So if you played a round of golf and came to that same spot in the fairway and happened to stick it close I'd say, great shot. But some portion of that was good fortune. You hit the 1-out-of-5 kind of shot.

    That's not offensive. That's simply statistics. That's how golf works.

    Or maybe you're the guy who always hits his 7-iron to 5-ft, IDK.

    Or the other "hubris of the hacker" is the guy who buys blades thinking that by practicing with them, he'll become a better ball striker. So he starts practicing a lot, and becomes a better ball striker. But he had done the same practice with a player's cavity back, or even a GI like an AP1 or Ping G series, he would have become a better ball striker. It's the practice that counts.

    The level of feedback that you receive through practice is key here. The more precise the feedback, the greater the proficiency of the skill being developed. If a guy practising with blades is hitting the small sweetspot consistently, he will be a better ball striker than the guy consistently hitting the much larger sweetspot of his GI iron. The GI guy has a much larger margin for error, but it doesn’t make him as good a ball striker. The flip side is that the guy practising with blades may take longer to hone his skill or he may give up if he can’t get to a satisfactory level and the pain of stinging fingers is too much. We all know that our golf games are only as good as the effort that you put in...it just depends how much effort you can put in depending on your circumstances. When I was learning to play as a kid with blade 8-iron and 3-iron, I hit thousands and thousands of balls with trial and error until I had a functional swing that could get the ball in the air. That was down to my circumstances...I had the opportunity to go to the field down the road and spend hours just hitting balls. I can see why people are drawn to GI clubs because it takes a lot of the effort out and frees up time for more important things...and circumstances change.

    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
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  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • Nard_SNard_S  3621Members Posts: 3,621
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    @bodhi555 said:

    he other "hubris of the hacker" is the guy who buys blades thinking that by practicing with them, he'll become a better ball striker. So he starts practicing a lot, and becomes a better ball striker. But he had done the same practice with a player's cavity back, or even a GI like an AP1 or Ping G series, he would have become a better ball striker. It's the practice that counts.

    Yeah, could not disagree enough. Practicing with GI is so less defined than using traditional. Go OTT catch it low & toe, you'll still be pleased, with blades? Nada. Strikes become about MM's and which groove you catch not which "1/2" quadrant did I strike?" Think you got "good hands"? Or think your "steep and cheap" swing gets it done, MB will keep that real in a way few CB's ever do.

    Posted:
  • Dr. HackDr. Hack  53Members Posts: 53
    Joined:  #209

    @dciccoritti said:

    @Myherobobhope said:
    I was playing a quick 18 this morning, and a terrible analogy hit me, so why not share it?
    Cars.
    Let's start with some basic assumptions, you own a car, you depend on your car to get you to work (and that's at least 50% of what you use your car for), you go to work because you need money, you still use the car for other things...
    The logical car to but would be the one with the best gas mileage for your particular commute, and overall cost... A car that costs you $0.25 per mile to run is significantly better than a car that costs you $.50 to run... The more miles you drive to work, the more sense it makes to focus on MPG over all other things. If you drive 100 miles a day, you'd be saving $25 a day!
    But how many people actually make the decision to buy a car solely on MPG? For the most part cars don't vary that wildly, and there is other utility to be considered in a vehicle... It also matters what you want to do with your car, how much your car "means" to you, and how much you refuse to drive a Prius.
    All that said, if someone said "I drive 50 miles to work everyday, what sort of car should I get?" and someone answered with a sports car because you might as well have fun for those 50 miles, most people would say that it was silly... and that they should buy a car with good MPG and if they wanted a fun sports car, they should do that on the side.
    I don't care if you put 100,000 miles on your sports car in a year, that's on you, it's your money and do what you want with it... I don't think it's necessarily a rational decision for the majority of people. Some people only drive trucks. Some want to drive Mercedes... I'd argue they are making a personal choice, but it's not necessarily rational to their needs of driving. There is a reason cars advertise to a particular style of life... Same as golf clubs.
    Play what you want, but don't tell me that as a 15 handicap your game is better with blades. If it was better, you wouldn't be a fifteen handicap.

    Ok well then who is it a rational decision for? You said most people and not all people. So when is a sports car or luxury car that consumes twice the amount of gas a rational decision for the few? I'm curious.

    You seem to repeatedly misunderstand what people are saying. It's annoying and creates arguments. Try re-reading or thinking harder?

    The above scenario can be thought of as "rational" from both perspectives, which was the purpose of his post. I'll spell it out -- if you spend most of your time driving, it makes sense to own a "driver's car." If you value efficiency etc over performance, it makes sense to own a more practical car. Both choices are equally logical and depend on preference.

    Posted:
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolina 28637Members Posts: 28,637
    Joined:  #210

    So. This question was posed in another thread. I’m curious of the opinions here. For those here who are not playing an mb. How many shots do you feel you’d lose on average if you did play an Mb? Same question on driver. If you had to go back to a 975d ish sized driver with steel shaft. How many shots would you lose ?

    This is not a start an argument question. Just curious what the opinions are. So honest question. No hidden barbs.

    Posted:
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    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  3- PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  54 60 s400
    Cameron GSS 1.5 009. Sound slot,  tungsten weights. 


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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolina 28637Members Posts: 28,637
    Joined:  #211

    @Nard_S said:

    @bodhi555 said:

    he other "hubris of the hacker" is the guy who buys blades thinking that by practicing with them, he'll become a better ball striker. So he starts practicing a lot, and becomes a better ball striker. But he had done the same practice with a player's cavity back, or even a GI like an AP1 or Ping G series, he would have become a better ball striker. It's the practice that counts.

    Yeah, could not disagree enough. Practicing with GI is so less defined than using traditional. Go OTT catch it low & toe, you'll still be pleased, with blades? Nada. Strikes become about MM's and which groove you catch not which "1/2" quadrant did I strike?" Think you got "good hands"? Or think your "steep and cheap" swing gets it done, MB will keep that real in a way few CB's ever do.

    Disagree personally. For me. It matters what and with what I practice. Precisely why they sell the small headed thin practice irons. To force a pure strike. No where to hide.

    Posted:
    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  3- PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  54 60 s400
    Cameron GSS 1.5 009. Sound slot,  tungsten weights. 


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