Pro golfer scoring average without caddies

jambox107jambox107 Members Posts: 62 ✭✭
How different/higher would pro golfers scoring averages be without the help of caddies? If pros had to carry their own bag, or use a push cart, and figure out their own numbers like us weekend warriors, i wonder if a 66 turns into a 68 or 69. Curious how many strokes you all think a pro caddie accounts for each round.
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  • marmooskapaulmarmooskapaul Members Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I think they would adjust to it just fine.
  • terminalvertigoterminalvertigo baby got backroll Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Are you attributing the extra strokes to fatigue from carrying etc? or less confidence in the distances etc? both?
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  • Dr. BlockDr. Block Members Posts: 612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They would still, as Hank Williams said best, "Set the Woods on Fire"
  • AC168AC168 Members Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 13, 2019 12:37pm #5
    Younger pros, no difference. Older pros, maybe a tiny difference in later rounds due to fatigue. Not to say the caddie doesn’t have an affect. Caddie could be positive or negative in crunch time. Just my opinion, that over a lot of rounds with a lot of pros, it’s still the person hitting shots.
  • jambox107jambox107 Members Posts: 62 ✭✭
    Are you attributing the extra strokes to fatigue from carrying etc? or less confidence in the distances etc? both?




    All of the above
  • rcb1586rcb1586 Members Posts: 402 ✭✭✭✭
    The round would go from 5.5 hours to 8 hours.

    Maybe a half stroke difference because of fatigue.
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,932 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Essentially no difference. They didn’t have caddies until they got a Tour card. Many only use caddies because they a required to do so, especially on the Web.com level. See how many guys can win with a family member on the bag, or a caddy who doesn’t even speak their language.
  • LUMALUMA I Am My Greatest Downfall St. Johns / Jacksonville FloridaMembers Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 13, 2019 1:24pm #9
    I usually shoot in the 70's and have had a couple rounds in the 60's. These super low rounds were always on courses that I knew well and was playing dam near perfect golf. I played a course that I had never played before and played with a guy who caddied for a couple pro's in the past and knew the course like the back of his hand. This man told me he would guide me around a bit as we played and basically "caddie" for me a little. My scores are usually a little higher on courses I don't know especially when you add elevation changes and wind into approach shots. That round, I shot a 68 with the help of this gentleman. I found that the direction that he gave throughout the round was game changing. I looked back at my choices before he would mention something such as club selection or green reading and I feel that I would have shot in the high 70's or higher if it wasn't for him. No, I was not prepared for this round and maybe I need to get a little better at understanding how elevation and wind will effect certain shot I have. This has always been difficult for me to know exactly how a wind will effect a shot and I can come up short often. I feel that caddies help tremendously on rounds where the player doesn't know the course well. Once you have played a course a good amount, you learn which greens slope, club choice on elevation changes, etc. Putting, approach shots and tee shots are a biggie and caddie feedback on those things are big. Too bad I don't have a caddie all the time...



    All in all, yes, I feel caddies have a positive effect on scoring. After all, two heads are almost always better than one, especially when the other head is trained to know the answer when your head isn't sure. Yes, amateurs score real low without caddies, but I would love to see a tour player show up at a course he had never played before, play the front 9 with no help at all, then call in his caddie who knows the course for the back 9 and look at the scoring difference.



    A buddy of mine, who also has worked with a couple tour pros on their swings told me a lot of the guys, when just playing a round for fun at places they don't know are low to mid 70's usually. Take that for what you will.
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  • CAT GOLFERCAT GOLFER Members Posts: 945 ✭✭✭✭✭
    don't most of these guys start off in formats where they had to carry/push/etc and they still shot sub 70 regularly? New course, maybe it makes a tiny difference, but tracks they have been to already, not that much.
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,664 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    My guess, it's just a guess.... would be no more than maybe .25 of a stroke per round. So maybe 1 for the tournament.



    Guys are in good enough shape to push a cart, and they know their games well



    I think an underrated part of caddies is simply the camaraderie and company, but not sure that affects scores
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  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 5,104 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,283 ClubWRX
    Wearing shorts or pants?
  • Pooh_BearPooh_Bear Members Posts: 99 ✭✭
    I'd pay money to watch these guys carrying around a staff bag filled with all their crap then try to play.
  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,734 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 13, 2019 10:19pm #15
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!
  • DDG61DDG61 Members Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    BB28403 wrote:
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!




    I’m in agreement with the “buddy factor” but 30% worse scores in relation to what? Overall score, relation to par?



    Finishing four rounds @ -12 with and -9 without.?
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers Posts: 28,664 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    DDG61 wrote:

    BB28403 wrote:
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!




    I’m in agreement with the “buddy factor” but 30% worse scores in relation to what? Overall score, relation to par?



    Finishing four rounds @ -12 with and -9 without.?




    Overall score would be an interesting hypothesis. If par is 288 for the week (par 72) that would mean someone shooting par would be around 350 without a caddy.



    Or about +62
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  • BB28403BB28403 Members Posts: 3,734 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 13, 2019 11:02pm #18
    DDG61 wrote:
    BB28403 wrote:
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!




    I’m in agreement with the “buddy factor” but 30% worse scores in relation to what? Overall score, relation to par?



    Finishing four rounds @ -12 with and -9 without.?




    I just think these courses especially this Florida swing would punish 1 mind versus 2. So quality of shots would go down. Birdies would go down, sand saves , driving accuracy , putting. On average your scores would be higher. Yeah each player losing 3-4 strokes a round I would think would be accurate.

    Think of all the misses and second guessing themselves.

    The course layouts would have to become easier to Nerf the course for them. Pro caddies bring a whole heck of a lot of knowledge and deal with a lot of the friction players do not think about. Fans who yell at them, fans moving, drunk people, all kinds of crazy stuff .

  • DDG61DDG61 Members Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    BB28403 wrote:
    DDG61 wrote:
    BB28403 wrote:
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!




    I’m in agreement with the “buddy factor” but 30% worse scores in relation to what? Overall score, relation to par?



    Finishing four rounds @ -12 with and -9 without.?




    I just think these courses especially this Florida swing would punish 1 mind versus 2. So quality of shots would go down. Birdies would go down, sand saves , driving accuracy , putting. On average your scores would be higher. Yeah each player losing 3-4 strokes a round I would think would be accurate.

    Think of all the misses and second guessing themselves.

    The course layouts would have to become easier to Nerf the course for them. Pro caddies bring a whole heck of a lot of knowledge and deal with a lot of the friction players do not think about. Fans who yell at them, fans moving, drunk people, all kinds of crazy stuff .




    Valid points, all the “admin” of a PGA round would add quite a bit to a player.
  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    The caddies acting like traffic cops would be missed. The "knowledge factor" would not. The players all have the books and experience. There is a reason players play well even with family friends or even el tucan on the bag
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  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 12:06am #21
    No caddies and golfboards. How exciting would the PGA Tour be with these?

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  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation Members Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Come on all, we need a strokes gained caddy stat. Right now! Then they can be paid based on that. It's of course not quantifiable, so... lol. At least not with current technology. Maybe if we can measure the impact of brain waves on performance? Initial intent vs caddie affected intent? Wild guess is since pro's play so many different courses, caddies chart them really well, and are worth like a stroke a round. If pro's had more time to research the courses, they would score just as well even without the caddies.
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  • ray9898ray9898 Members Posts: 826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No difference....they all did it without them before.
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,654 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 8:01am #24
    It might not matter much to them. However, the best I ever did at the Club Championship was when I had a friend caddy for me. All I needed to do was focus on hitting the shot. Obviously different and I still got trounced, BTW
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I say give them a push cart, a GPS and a laser and let them play. Scores wouldn’t change. Of course we would miss out on all the witty back and forth between JS and Greller.





    I think the tour requires it because it makes the whole process look more professional. All about image.

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  • tideridertiderider Members Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    DDG61 wrote:

    BB28403 wrote:
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!




    I’m in agreement with the “buddy factor” but 30% worse scores in relation to what? Overall score, relation to par?



    Finishing four rounds @ -12 with and -9 without.?




    i think that ... not sure how anyone can think carrying/pushing your own cart doesn't add some type of fatigue, whether physical or mental ... add to that the extra mental work to get yardages, discuss with yourself the shot (that would be very entertaining), answering the same question over & over (the wind is still off your right at 5 mph), etc ... i think it adds at least 3 shots ...
  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,932 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    tiderider wrote:

    DDG61 wrote:

    BB28403 wrote:
    You know a caddy is like a good buddy in the trenches with you.

    They have skin in the game , you win, they win.

    You both walked the course together and played together several times . I am sure it is helpful bouncing ideas off of them.

    Also something not many people think of, is a different physical viewpoint . Your eyes are in the front of your head. They see a lot from your left, your right , behind you, in front. That is priceless.

    I say that caddies add 30% of the quality we see out there to the game. And only take 5-7% of the pay.

    They are a good investment.



    So without them. 30% worse scores/experience had by fans, and a lot more meltdowns!! Wooo!




    I’m in agreement with the “buddy factor” but 30% worse scores in relation to what? Overall score, relation to par?



    Finishing four rounds @ -12 with and -9 without.?




    i think that ... not sure how anyone can think carrying/pushing your own cart doesn't add some type of fatigue, whether physical or mental ... add to that the extra mental work to get yardages, discuss with yourself the shot (that would be very entertaining), answering the same question over & over (the wind is still off your right at 5 mph), etc ... i think it adds at least 3 shots ...




    It doesn’t. European Tour allows Challenge Tour players to not take caddies. They don’t get magically worse and many choose not to take a caddy, because the caddies at that level of golf aren’t providing much value, there aren’t that many great caddies.



    Their whole career they’ve carried their own bag and played without a caddy. They don’t forget how to play golf.
  • youraway2youraway2 Just Old Sticks Members Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    If caddies carried only, no advice, just pull the club, I believe the rounds would be faster, but would the scores be better? We don't know do we? Some players need the comfort and confidence from a caddie, others do not.
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  • tgsevers81tgsevers81 Members Posts: 316 ✭✭✭✭
    I think eliminating green-reading books would be more detrimental to scoring, than eliminating the players caddie.
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  • c7015c7015 Members Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    how many strokes can a caddy save ... depends on if your player listens when you veto a shot 
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  • Big Cat 3Big Cat 3 Members Posts: 697 ✭✭
    jambox107 said:
    How different/higher would pro golfers scoring averages be without the help of caddies? If pros had to carry their own bag, or use a push cart, and figure out their own numbers like us weekend warriors, i wonder if a 66 turns into a 68 or 69. Curious how many strokes you all think a pro caddie accounts for each round.
    No change but who would say ‘ ya ‘ 150 times a round 
    The pros would do just as well if a trained chimp would carry their bags probably better since the trained chimp would be brighter than the caddy  in most cases 

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