Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[deadsolid...shank]

I think much like the LPGA’er vs the 4 handicap thread, it needs to be more specific (which is ironic since the OP instituted such strict ((but unrealistic IMHO)) stipulations). Like setting up a test group and asking how many, if any, might do it.

 

But I guess the OP was specific enough in that he said it was his buddy who said he could do it. So, in that vein. If it’s asking if one particular person could do, and us not knowing that particular person, I would say emphatically no.

 

If you put a large group (I think 100 has been mentioned) out there, I would say yes, someone will do it.

 

 

 

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

Hey BSC, what does Lee say about it!?��

 

Lee be like,

 

 

 

; )

 

 

BSC always comes through!!

[North Texas]

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

It looks like that the 40 players who missed the cut last year averaged right at 76-77 per round. And I would guess that those who could be classified as "touring pro" probably averaged 75 or or less.

[bscinstnct]

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

It looks like that the 40 players who missed the cut last year averaged right at 76-77 per round. And I would guess that those who could be classified as "touring pro" probably averaged 75 or or less.

 

Its interesting.

 

Here are all the rounds by the ams last year

 

Curtis Luck, 78, 72, 75, 72

 

Brad Dalke, 78, 75

 

Scott Gregory, 82, 75

 

Toto Gana, 81, 80

 

And here is for 2016

 

Derek Bard, 76, 77

 

Sammy Schmitz, 81, 75

 

Cheng Hin, 79, 78

 

Paul Chaplett, 83, 82

 

Average it all up and we get (drumroll please ; )

 

77.722222222

 

Now, lowheel thought these ams play at +4, more or less.

 

So, what does it mean?

 

*special thanks to mrs. bsc for adding/dividing as I rattled off the numbers ; )

[Bye]

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

It looks like that the 40 players who missed the cut last year averaged right at 76-77 per round. And I would guess that those who could be classified as "touring pro" probably averaged 75 or or less.

 

Its interesting.

 

Here are all the rounds by the ams last year

 

Curtis Luck, 78, 72, 75, 72

 

Brad Dalke, 78, 75

 

Scott Gregory, 82, 75

 

Toto Gana, 81, 80

 

And here is for 2016

 

Derek Bard, 76, 77

 

Sammy Schmitz, 81, 75

 

Cheng Hin, 79, 78

 

Paul Chaplett, 83, 82

 

Average it all up and we get (drumroll please ; )

 

77.722222222

 

Now, lowheel thought these ams play at +4, more or less.

 

So, what does it mean?

 

*special thanks to mrs. bsc for adding/dividing as I rattled off the numbers ; )

 

Curtis Luck was the number one amateur in the world when he played in last years masters.

[Shilgy]

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

It looks like that the 40 players who missed the cut last year averaged right at 76-77 per round. And I would guess that those who could be classified as "touring pro" probably averaged 75 or or less.

 

Its interesting.

 

Here are all the rounds by the ams last year

 

Curtis Luck, 78, 72, 75, 72

 

Brad Dalke, 78, 75

 

Scott Gregory, 82, 75

 

Toto Gana, 81, 80

 

And here is for 2016

 

Derek Bard, 76, 77

 

Sammy Schmitz, 81, 75

 

Cheng Hin, 79, 78

 

Paul Chaplett, 83, 82

 

Average it all up and we get (drumroll please ; )

 

77.722222222

 

Now, lowheel thought these ams play at +4, more or less.

 

So, what does it mean?

 

*special thanks to mrs. bsc for adding/dividing as I rattled off the numbers ; )

Schmitz is listed as a +2.3 on ghin. So he's 10 shots better than scratch?

[deadsolid...shank]

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

It looks like that the 40 players who missed the cut last year averaged right at 76-77 per round. And I would guess that those who could be classified as "touring pro" probably averaged 75 or or less.

 

Its interesting.

 

Here are all the rounds by the ams last year

 

Curtis Luck, 78, 72, 75, 72

 

Brad Dalke, 78, 75

 

Scott Gregory, 82, 75

 

Toto Gana, 81, 80

 

And here is for 2016

 

Derek Bard, 76, 77

 

Sammy Schmitz, 81, 75

 

Cheng Hin, 79, 78

 

Paul Chaplett, 83, 82

 

Average it all up and we get (drumroll please ; )

 

77.722222222

 

Now, lowheel thought these ams play at +4, more or less.

 

So, what does it mean?

 

*special thanks to mrs. bsc for adding/dividing as I rattled off the numbers ; )

Schmitz is listed as a +2.3 on ghin. So he's 10 shots better than scratch?

 

It kind of surprises me in this thread. There are so many pure number guys on the board who swear by the stats. But in this situation, where the numbers appear to support the scratch’s chance, all the other “variables” suddenly play a much larger role.

[bscinstnct]

To follow up on my post above, in last year's Master's, in the final round there was exactly 9 touring pros who shot 75 or higher with 78 being the highest score.

 

Hell, in 2015, the highest final round score was 75 and there were only 3 of those.

 

Yes, but if you look at the guys who did not make the cut in 2017

 

Lots and lots high scores including rounds of 78, 79, and 80 by

 

#16 owgr at the time Tyrell Hatton who shot 80, 78

 

#12 owgr at the time Alex Noren, 78

 

Si-Woo Kim, 81

 

Gary Woodland, 80

 

Bubba, 78

 

It looks like that the 40 players who missed the cut last year averaged right at 76-77 per round. And I would guess that those who could be classified as "touring pro" probably averaged 75 or or less.

 

Its interesting.

 

Here are all the rounds by the ams last year

 

Curtis Luck, 78, 72, 75, 72

 

Brad Dalke, 78, 75

 

Scott Gregory, 82, 75

 

Toto Gana, 81, 80

 

And here is for 2016

 

Derek Bard, 76, 77

 

Sammy Schmitz, 81, 75

 

Cheng Hin, 79, 78

 

Paul Chaplett, 83, 82

 

Average it all up and we get (drumroll please ; )

 

77.722222222

 

Now, lowheel thought these ams play at +4, more or less.

 

So, what does it mean?

 

*special thanks to mrs. bsc for adding/dividing as I rattled off the numbers ; )

Schmitz is listed as a +2.3 on ghin. So he's 10 shots better than scratch?

 

Shilgy!

 

I dont know. Scratch is like something that happens to me when Im "dating" Jennifer Lawrence.

 

I wake up ; )

 

You experts gotta tell me what it means.

[Shilgy]

 

 

Shilgy!

 

I dont know. Scratch is like something that happens to me when Im "dating" Jennifer Lawrence.

 

I wake up ; )

 

You experts gotta tell me what it means.

I thought for this thread that "scratch" is a 0.0 index. The old version was a guy that could shoot par pretty much anywhere. I'm guessing that old definition is not being referred to by the guys that say it's impossible.

 

PS it also occurred to me that the greens at Augusta probably are in the 12-13 range as estimated by the rating expert. They appear to be much much faster because of the severe undulations.

[Stanks]

Anyone can do anything. Practice.

[lowheel]

 

 

Shilgy!

 

I dont know. Scratch is like something that happens to me when Im "dating" Jennifer Lawrence.

 

I wake up ; )

 

You experts gotta tell me what it means.

I thought for this thread that "scratch" is a 0.0 index. The old version was a guy that could shoot par pretty much anywhere. I'm guessing that old definition is not being referred to by the guys that say it's impossible.

 

PS it also occurred to me that the greens at Augusta probably are in the 12-13 range as estimated by the rating expert. They appear to be much much faster because of the severe undulations.

 

Shil, I’ve been there multiple times over a span of 20 years. They’re 12-12.5 on Tuesday Wednesday and then they turn the pumps on overnight and roll them again. They roll 14 as of Thursday. Some holes the slopes cause that to go to 16. Not joking. I watched olazabal years ago putt across the 10th green and play 25 feet of break on the Wednesday. It took him 20 putts to get one inside 10 feet. I watched tiger practice out of the bunker on that same hole another year and he literally hit 12 balls to different spots steve Williams put little flags to.(pin positions) he didn’t put one inside 12 feet. He walked by and said jokingly “that’s prison let’s avoid that bunker” I can go on and on but just ask any player who’s played there there’s nothing like it in the world. Very difficult to prepare for that kind of test. Your definition of scratch is one old way of looking at it. Now people slap their scores into the computer and voila. I teach a scratch who’s last 10 rounds are over par because he plays the back tees. His best score is a 74. It’s. Its not an exact science.

I have spoken to staff at Augusta and they sometimes water the greens between prep to take some fire out of them because it can get ridiculous. They also mow fairways against you making tight lies around the greens even dicier.

 

Ask yourself this, if the top ams who get there who are minimum +3.5/4s have 7-8-9 practice rounds, infinite amount of chipping and putting practice time over a span of 10 days to get used to the place and still can’t shoot their cap some shooting 8-10 shots above their caps, how is a regular “scratch” suppose to show up and have 1 hour to warmup in masters Sunday conditions and not blow up a few holes? The scenario is basic bar talk bragging. Anything is possible sure but what’s probable? For me what’s probable is that the course intricacies overwhelms 95% of these guys and they never recover. Go watch how a mark omeara or langer gets around at that course.their length is limited and they really struggle but their course knowledge and experience saves them easily 5-6 shots a round. These are pga hall of famers who have won there. They know where to miss. The scratch will not. I spoke to feherty years ago there before the tv coverage began and the early groups came through 15 on Sunday. He was giggling that if you go over the green in 2 at 15 you might as well pencil a 6. As he’s saying that Vijay Singh who once won there, chipped into the water after barely pitching it on the green. He turns to us and says “ just like that”. If they ever added longer rough to that course it would be impossible to hold the greens. There was a little wind last year and look at what happened. It’s not the easy task people are saying on here. I would love to see Vegas handicap it

[RobotDoctor]

Many of these terrific amateur champions, all of whom have + handicaps don't even make it to Sunday. Therefore aren't their statistics moot in the criteria of this thread?

[Titleist 670]

Let's say you put 500 scratch golfers to this test. I have a hard time believing that not one of them would break 85 - but as pointed out, it depends on your definition of scratch. Your average Joe Blow who is a scratch at his home course that's playing 6,800 yards? No chance.

 

If you put a ton of legit tournament scratches out there, I'm sure some of them could, but I feel like the OP is talking about more of the former type of scratch than the latter, in which case the odds would be HEAVILY against them.

 

Now take me. Your average 15 capper, hits it 330 dead straight, built like a linebacker. I easily break 85.

 

I'm only a 15 because I four putt everything, so the four putts at Augusta won't impact me, and my huge quads will prevent me from slipping on the slick greens, giving me a stable based on the side hill lies.

 

I'm guessing breaking 60 for me isn't out of the question.

[Shilgy]

So if I get this correct....the following is all true.

 

1) some of you, from watching outside the ropes, know the course and what it should be rated better than the guru of rating.

 

2) or maybe 1B... Can tell the green speeds better than he can. Again just from watching outside the ropes.

 

3) this vast experience you have... From watching outside the ropes.... Is not available to the scratch attempting to break 85.

 

4) if a +2.3 can shoot 75 during the actual event what pray tell would prevent a scratch from shooting within 9 strokes of that without that pressure?

 

Would it be easy? Probably not. But it's a golf course, not some mystical test that belongs only in Golf in the Kingdom. As others have posted even if you think the course rating should be 85 the scratch should break it occasionally.

 

Keep on squabbling....

 

 

[lowheel]

So if I get this correct....the following is all true.

 

1) some of you, from watching outside the ropes, know the course and what it should be rated better than the guru of rating.

 

2) or maybe 1B... Can tell the green speeds better than he can. Again just from watching outside the ropes.

 

3) this vast experience you have... From watching outside the ropes.... Is not available to the scratch attempting to break 85.

 

4) if a +2.3 can shoot 75 during the actual event what pray tell would prevent a scratch from shooting within 9 strokes of that without that pressure?

 

Would it be easy? Probably not. But it's a golf course, not some mystical test that belongs only in Golf in the Kingdom. As others have posted even if you think the course rating should be 85 the scratch should break it occasionally.

 

Keep on squabbling....

 

You know rating a course isn’t sorcery. I’ve manually walked and mapped several courses on sky golf when new tees were added at various courses and manually adjusted the rating using usage guidelines. When the mappers came by I was white in 1 or 2 in their estimate. I can tell you from being on the grounds there that the speed from Tuesday to Thursday changes dramatically. You don’t have to take my word for it, it’s just a simple fact. Augusta’s back nine provides some risk reward holes that can lead to birdies but also to doubles for tour players. It’s not a mystical quest but it is a suckers bet for sure.

[Titleist 670]

I would think the pressure would mount very quickly on the first several holes. #1 can be brutal, and the green on #3 can give the pros fits, as can 4, 5, and 6.

 

I think the mental grind, even to just break 85, for your average country club scratch could be pretty rough. Shooting 42/43 on the front with 10, 11, 12 upcoming wouldn't be too fun.

[lowheel]

I would think the pressure would mount very quickly on the first several holes. #1 can be brutal, and the green on #3 can give the pros fits, as can 4, 5, and 6.

 

I think the mental grind, even to just break 85, for your average country club scratch could be pretty rough. Shooting 42/43 on the front with 10, 11, 12 upcoming wouldn't be too fun.

 

The jarring effect of 3 or 4 putting one of the first holes would put you on the defensive real quick and rattle you the rest of the round. All that’s needed is that seed of doubt planted and you’re grinding the rest of the day. I’ve seen tiger double the 1st like 3 times in person. That hole doesn’t fit his eye and is treacherous. A real beast. I’ve seen Retief goosen, Fred couples and tiger 3 putt and 4 putt #3 which is a 4 iron sand wedge hole because they were short or long or past the crest in the middle of the green.

#2 is a scary par 5 with no hazards but can easily be doubled if you’re short or long

 

Here’s what can happen at #4

 

http://www.masters.com/en_US/watch/2016/r2_28237_4.html

 

For fun here’s a birdie hole

 

http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/04/06/masters-2017-jordan-spieth-makes-quadruple-bogey-9-15th-hole

[Komarms]

So Jordan Spieth’s 270 total in the 15’ masters makes him what? A +10 or 11 handicap for the week? Jeeze, he must be one of the best to ever play the game... this debate will never be solved with the criteria given. Handicaps are legitimately meaningless unless they are tournament tested, way too many sandbaggers who want to look like better golfers and on the other hand way too many + golfers trying to go the other way to take advantage of regular scratches in money games etc. In my opinion if you want to become an actual “scratch” golfer you have to play in competition. So in my opinion there’s actually no fair way to answer the initial question. I’ll give an example as well.. I’ve been a member at several courses with guys as low as +4 maybe +5 at their home course. Bring them anywhere else and they shoot 5-6 shots worse and if they’re really out of they’re element they throw up a big number.. these guys are not legitimate + or scratch golfers. If you play your home course everyday and hit the same clubs, same yardage’s, know the greens etc. it’s not even fair to call yourself a scratch. You might be a scratch at that particular course but overall, no chance. Tournament scratch players are a different animal and I think that would be the only type of player who could accomplish something like this.

[Bye]

So Jordan Spieth’s 270 total in the 15’ masters makes him what? A +10 or 11 handicap for the week? Jeeze, he must be one of the best to ever play the game... this debate will never be solved with the criteria given. Handicaps are legitimately meaningless unless they are tournament tested, way too many sandbaggers who want to look like better golfers and on the other hand way too many + golfers trying to go the other way to take advantage of regular scratches in money games etc. In my opinion if you want to become an actual “scratch” golfer you have to play in competition. So in my opinion there’s actually no fair way to answer the initial question. I’ll give an example as well.. I’ve been a member at several courses with guys as low as +4 maybe +5 at their home course. Bring them anywhere else and they shoot 5-6 shots worse and if they’re really out of they’re element they throw up a big number.. these guys are not legitimate + or scratch golfers. If you play your home course everyday and hit the same clubs, same yardage’s, know the greens etc. it’s not even fair to call yourself a scratch. You might be a scratch at that particular course but overall, no chance. Tournament scratch players are a different animal and I think that would be the only type of player who could accomplish something like this.

 

From one of the articals where Knuth's rating was explained.

 

Winner Angel Cabrera averaged plus-10 handicap golf with 20 birdies and a score of 12 under par.

 

I agree with you that some handicaps don't travel very well but this highlights the importance of course knowledge. Some guys travel better than others, it's a skill to be able to workout how to play a hole or course without prior knowledge. That skill might make up for another area of their game. The game isn't just about hitting the ball, course management, shot selection, holding your nerve. Anyone that has traveled and played a competitive round on a course that you don't know which is either very undulating, has super fast sloping greens or is 7500 yards will know that you can hit shots which look good but end up in a horrible spot. Roll all three scenarios together and you have the challenge faced by our golfer.

 

 

[bscinstnct]

I would think the pressure would mount very quickly on the first several holes. #1 can be brutal, and the green on #3 can give the pros fits, as can 4, 5, and 6.

 

I think the mental grind, even to just break 85, for your average country club scratch could be pretty rough. Shooting 42/43 on the front with 10, 11, 12 upcoming wouldn't be too fun.

 

The jarring effect of 3 or 4 putting one of the first holes would put you on the defensive real quick and rattle you the rest of the round. All that’s needed is that seed of doubt planted and you’re grinding the rest of the day. I’ve seen tiger double the 1st like 3 times in person. That hole doesn’t fit his eye and is treacherous. A real beast. I’ve seen Retief goosen, Fred couples and tiger 3 putt and 4 putt #3 which is a 4 iron sand wedge hole because they were short or long or past the crest in the middle of the green.

#2 is a scary par 5 with no hazards but can easily be doubled if you’re short or long

 

Here’s what can happen at #4

 

http://www.masters.com/en_US/watch/2016/r2_28237_4.html

 

For fun here’s a birdie hole

 

http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/04/06/masters-2017-jordan-spieth-makes-quadruple-bogey-9-15th-hole

 

11 is a nightmare. 500 yard par 4. The pros never seem to be in position to hit that green. They basically lay up or bail right.

 

As far as bailing right, I didnt realize that that,

 

,"what a lot of people don’t realize is how much they’ve lowered right of the green, so if you miss to the right, you no longer have a simple pitch shot. The Larry Mize shot was just a bump-and-run that traveled across level ground and got on the green and went in the hole. Now you’re about 3-4 feet below the green there, so you have that shot uphill to a green that slopes toward the lake. It’s a very scary short-game shot from the right side of the green. You know you can’t miss right, so then the pond becomes more in play. It’s a genius move, as most of their changes are."

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pgatour.com/news/2014/04/08/player-perspectives-on-augusta-national-holes.amp.html

[North Texas]

I'll say it again. Taking the 78.1 course rating at face value, then the average scratch golfer should/would break 85 under the conditions set forth in the original post. Just doing the math and looking at the stats will tell you that.

 

However, I also think there is an effect of having never played the course that is part of the equation and that is something that I don't think the handicap system has a way to factor in. So I think the odds would be reduced. And, yes, I don't think all scratch golfers are equal.

 

My take on the severe undulations of the greens and what happens if you miss the greens in the wrong spot and similar thoughts, all legitimate by the way, is that all of those things have been accounted for in the course rating. If not, then the course rating is not accurate.

 

And, yes, I have been fortunate enough to have attended the Masters 5 years in a row. And I don't there is any course like when it comes to slopes, green undulations, and things like that. It is unbelievable and amazing.

[pizzabreath]

they could and easily if they know how to get around Mckenzie greens. once you figure them out it could be done regularly. There is a method to the madness on those greens and you would have to really be creative with your short game. people who play flat greened courses would die.

[Roadking2003]

Is it possible?

 

Yes.

 

Even 90 percent of the people disagreeing have half said the same thing. "depends on the scratch" "only if he's a long hiter" etc.

 

Its possible though, most have admitted as much over the course of 880+ posts.

 

Its 85. Not 71. A scratch can smack his way around and make 12 bogeys or 14 bogeys and 3 birdies etc.

 

How many people are scratch playing a golf course in excess of 7,400 yards with undulating greens at least 14 on on the Stimpmeter? 10 foot putts with 5-6 feet of break. The reality is that most likely no scratch golfer plays in those conditions .... ever. Even Oakmont greens are not that severe for normal play, only the US Open. Any course making their greens like that everyday will find their greens dying due to stress pretty quick, especially during the summer months. This scenario is strictly based on the OP's criteria, which in its own part is ludicrous. Can a scratch golfer break 85 at ANGC from members tees with a caddie? Absolutely, and quite possibly break 80 or even 78. Can a scratch golfer break 85 from the Masters tees under normal conditions with a caddie? I would say yes on occasion. Can a scratch golfer break 85 strictly under the original criteria? I don't believe they could.

 

I don’t know if there is any truth to this or not, but I’ve always read that Oakmont actually slows their greens down for the open.

 

I've heard that too. Just don't believe it.

[deadsolid...shank]

Is it possible?

 

Yes.

 

Even 90 percent of the people disagreeing have half said the same thing. "depends on the scratch" "only if he's a long hiter" etc.

 

Its possible though, most have admitted as much over the course of 880+ posts.

 

Its 85. Not 71. A scratch can smack his way around and make 12 bogeys or 14 bogeys and 3 birdies etc.

 

How many people are scratch playing a golf course in excess of 7,400 yards with undulating greens at least 14 on on the Stimpmeter? 10 foot putts with 5-6 feet of break. The reality is that most likely no scratch golfer plays in those conditions .... ever. Even Oakmont greens are not that severe for normal play, only the US Open. Any course making their greens like that everyday will find their greens dying due to stress pretty quick, especially during the summer months. This scenario is strictly based on the OP's criteria, which in its own part is ludicrous. Can a scratch golfer break 85 at ANGC from members tees with a caddie? Absolutely, and quite possibly break 80 or even 78. Can a scratch golfer break 85 from the Masters tees under normal conditions with a caddie? I would say yes on occasion. Can a scratch golfer break 85 strictly under the original criteria? I don't believe they could.

 

I don’t know if there is any truth to this or not, but I’ve always read that Oakmont actually slows their greens down for the open.

 

I've heard that too. Just don't believe it.

 

Yeah, seems a little sketchy, but I really don’t have any idea.

[RobotDoctor]

Is it possible?

 

Yes.

 

Even 90 percent of the people disagreeing have half said the same thing. "depends on the scratch" "only if he's a long hiter" etc.

 

Its possible though, most have admitted as much over the course of 880+ posts.

 

Its 85. Not 71. A scratch can smack his way around and make 12 bogeys or 14 bogeys and 3 birdies etc.

 

How many people are scratch playing a golf course in excess of 7,400 yards with undulating greens at least 14 on on the Stimpmeter? 10 foot putts with 5-6 feet of break. The reality is that most likely no scratch golfer plays in those conditions .... ever. Even Oakmont greens are not that severe for normal play, only the US Open. Any course making their greens like that everyday will find their greens dying due to stress pretty quick, especially during the summer months. This scenario is strictly based on the OP's criteria, which in its own part is ludicrous. Can a scratch golfer break 85 at ANGC from members tees with a caddie? Absolutely, and quite possibly break 80 or even 78. Can a scratch golfer break 85 from the Masters tees under normal conditions with a caddie? I would say yes on occasion. Can a scratch golfer break 85 strictly under the original criteria? I don't believe they could.

 

I don’t know if there is any truth to this or not, but I’ve always read that Oakmont actually slows their greens down for the open.

 

I've heard that too. Just don't believe it.

 

Yeah, seems a little sketchy, but I really don’t have any idea.

 

I have heard that as well. We are all aware how fast and severe Oakmont's greens are. I am hopeful that one day I will be able to play Oakmont. My wife's step brother is a member of a club in the Pittsburgh area and once or twice a year gets invited to play Oakmont. He knows how much I love golf and the history so who knows. At least I can play his club any time I am in the area.

[widow-maker]

Is it possible?

 

Yes.

 

Even 90 percent of the people disagreeing have half said the same thing. "depends on the scratch" "only if he's a long hiter" etc.

 

Its possible though, most have admitted as much over the course of 880+ posts.

 

Its 85. Not 71. A scratch can smack his way around and make 12 bogeys or 14 bogeys and 3 birdies etc.

 

How many people are scratch playing a golf course in excess of 7,400 yards with undulating greens at least 14 on on the Stimpmeter? 10 foot putts with 5-6 feet of break. The reality is that most likely no scratch golfer plays in those conditions .... ever. Even Oakmont greens are not that severe for normal play, only the US Open. Any course making their greens like that everyday will find their greens dying due to stress pretty quick, especially during the summer months. This scenario is strictly based on the OP's criteria, which in its own part is ludicrous. Can a scratch golfer break 85 at ANGC from members tees with a caddie? Absolutely, and quite possibly break 80 or even 78. Can a scratch golfer break 85 from the Masters tees under normal conditions with a caddie? I would say yes on occasion. Can a scratch golfer break 85 strictly under the original criteria? I don't believe they could.

 

I don’t know if there is any truth to this or not, but I’ve always read that Oakmont actually slows their greens down for the open.

 

I've heard that too. Just don't believe it.

I can pretty much guarantee that the pro's play easier pin positions that what the members sometimes see. There's a ridge that runs through the 11th green at Oakland Hills. I've never seen a pin placement in any of the Majors played there that's anywhere near that ridge. I've seen the members have to deal with it though. They have to be careful in Major tournaments where they set the pins, especially if they decide to speed up the greens. I didn't think that the greens for the Ryder Cup at Oakland Hills were any faster than the members play them, but the pin placements were all put in a reasonable spot on the greens.

[lowheel]

As for oakmont ask Richard, he'll tell you that their club championship and the other tourney the members do at the end of the year has tougher pins and slighlty quicker greens than the open.Not a rumor, its true.Ive been lucky to play that course 4 times over a span of 20 years and its really changed. lots of trees are now gone. if you want to test your game its a must play. Absolute monster course. Insane green complexes.

[flog2]

As for oakmont ask Richard, he'll tell you that their club championship and the other tourney the members do at the end of the year has tougher pins and slighlty quicker greens than the open.Not a rumor, its true.Ive been lucky to play that course 4 times over a span of 20 years and its really changed. lots of trees are now gone. if you want to test your game its a must play. Absolute monster course. Insane green complexes.

there you have it, definitive proof. Pro's get it easy, probably for tv ratings

[dlygrisse]

To answer the OP's original question, YES. Absolutely. Especially if they had a good caddie. Would they? Probably, more than 1/2 the time.

 

That's the point. The scratch golfer CANNOT have a caddie so this scenario is moot. This is ALL about the original criteria.

 

Okay fine. I still think they would break 85 fairly often, if they were truly scratch. The ball striking wouldn't be that big a deal for a true scratch, if they were a good putter and chipper then no problem. That course is all about the greens. If they were a good ball striker and a shaky putter, then not as often. I've played with some scratch players who looked awfully impressive when on their game, often shooting below par, it's just when they werent having a good day that things go haywire quickly and shooting in the 80's is a real possibility.

 

So yeah, I'd say for a true scratch about 50%.

[Obee]

Read through some of this thread. I'm actually quite surprised at some people's responses.

Almost all of the "scratch" golfers that I spend time with are actual tournament scratches. I actually think

That it would be more likely that any given one of them would break 80 before they shot over 85. 85 is really bad! I mean you can have 3 doubles, 7 bogeys and only 1 birdie and still break 85. It's almost never that a scratch golfer will go an entire round without at least one birdie...

 

So right now I'm currently a +3.2 in the computer. Does that mean my number is 82? I know that's not the scenario that the OP originally put out there but still!

This is still just a golf course people.

 

 

I was particularly interested in the exchange between Obee and Lowheal... i'd take OBEE And the "under" And give 2-1 odds on $10,000.

 

In my opinion Torrey Pines was it least two full shots harder than Augusta at the us open. And the LA country club has the potential to be the hardest U.S. Open venue in the last 15 years. The place is a monster!

 

And one more thing: why do people think the caddywould make such a difference?? I could probably draw you an accurate depiction of the green complexes on 15 holes at Augusta and I've never even played there! Having a decent yardage book would make a difference but honestly a lot of the times if you're not used to playing with a caddy, it's just something that takes you out of your natural element and rhythm. Might cost you shots!

 

isaacb with the dope avatar! How's it all goin?

 

Hey, do you think you and the tournament scratches you play with are as good or even better than the amateurs who play in the Master's?

 

I just looked at the am scoring for the past few years and, on quick review, looks like scores average in the high 70s. You see guys who will shoot rounds over 80 but didn't see any over 85. And they get some low rounds in there too.

 

I've played tournament golf with four amateurs who have played in the masters via winning the US Mid-Am and the US PubLinks. I play with those types of players all the time. When I play well and they play well, they beat me by a few strokes a round. When I play well and they play meh, we are even. When I play poorly, all bets are off. They dust me. One thing about this type of player: When they are competing, they are playing or practicing 6 or 7 days a week. When I'm able to play/practice 4 or 5 days a week, I can play golf a bit. If I can't play or practice (like now with my new job), I can shoot a verifiable 66 one day (like two weekends ago in team play) and I can shoot 84 the next weekend.

 

But we are talking about being prepared. About playing and practicing and being ready to play golf -- not about our crappy rounds when we aren't playing golf.

 

LowHeel and his +4.5 says his target is 76, but a tournament scratch is not gonna break 85. Please explain that math to me. Your +4.5 becomes a +6 at Augusta due to the way slope works against plus handicappers, so the spread is six legit shots on a tough course for a +4.5 versus a scratch player. But somehow there's no way a scratch can break 85? So you're saying Augusta should be rated 81.8(?) and sloped 185(?)? LOL. Other than two years ago when it was cold as can be and windy as all get out, Augusta has played tough, but never stupid, unrealistic tough. Never. Stop cherry picking one year at Augusta to try to prove the point that Augusta is the toughest course out there. It's not. It's tough. But it's easier than Torrey South for the Farmers (not even the US Open!):

 

2017 Masters: 73.88. Keep in mind that August is NOT a full-field PGA Tour event. Make this a full-field PGA Tour event and remove the exemptions for players who normally would not be in a full-field PGA Tour event and the stroke average comes down a bit. Final two rounds average score (only players making the cut): 72.18.

 

2018 Farmers: Torrey South Course, Final Two Rounds (when only players who make the cut are playing the South ONLY): 73.49

 

Torrey South plays tougher than Augusta, but let's be nice and call them even in terms of difficulty -- just for argument's sake.

 

Now I am NOT saying that Torrey South is easy. It ain't. It's a flippin' BEAST. There are several par fours I can't reach in two under the wrong conditions nowadays. But I shot 78 there five years ago the day after the Farmers. In tournament conditions. Same pins. Same tees. Early in the morning, long(ish), wet rough. It was cold and the course was covered in dew. I'm a shot(ish) worse on average now than I was then, but I ain't 9 shots worse. Geez.

 

Look. I suck. I'm 50, fat, and I get a tee spot (or two) and one or two (or even three) a side from legit PGA and Web.com tour pros when we play for money. Sometimes they beat me. Sometimes I beat them. The point is, these are fair bets. They are playing for money against other pros when we play. They shoot what they always shoot on a tour-quality course (which my home course is): 65 - 74 (and sometimes higher at my course if the conditions are especially tough and sometimes lower, if they have a great day -- Rickie's best there is 62, one off the course record of 61 by Si Woo Kim). They are about 8 shots better than I am, give or take a bit. They average 72ish at Augusta and Torrey. I'd average 80 - 82...

 

And get my butt KICKED by an average of 32 shots over four rounds of golf by these guys!!

 

I'm a 0.9 right now. I commute 5 hours each day to and from work. I'm playing less golf than I've ever played in my life, and if I played Augusta right now, I might shoot 107. But come the tournament season, I'll be back where I always am: 0 to +2, which makes my average handicap for the whole season right around zero. And if anyone wants to tee it up with me at Torrey South for a "break 85" bet, just name the date, and I'll be there (as long as it's April through October!) LOL

 

One last thing: I'm also carrying the banner here for legit scratch guys who are unwilling to post for fear of being "that guy" (a guy like me! LOL!). You're welcome, guys!!! ;-)

[Obee]

Many of these terrific amateur champions, all of whom have + handicaps don't even make it to Sunday. Therefore aren't their statistics moot in the criteria of this thread?

 

We don't care that they don't make it to Sunday. That's not the point. What are their average scores? They are not as good as the guys that make the cut. But they are a good barometer for other tournament scratch guys. See my other post. I play with these guys -- in tournaments -- all the time.