PXG sues Taylor Made

[bogeypro]

I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

No worries then. The first posted I responded to sounded a whole lot like you said that the only reason to buy PXG was ego and implied if you see a PXG bag its all ego-driven, but if I misunderstood you then I misunderstood you.

 

"not quite the same thing... a better example would be if he were playing a gold plated honma driver and irons etc...... M1/M2 can be had so cheap used now that nobody thinks of them as "expensive"... "

 

Its exactly the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Nobody needs an M2 like nobody needs PXG clubs. The fact that one hooker costs $5 and one costs $5,000,000 doesn't make them not prostitutes. They are both selling snake oil, one is just more repugnant to most people because it is so out of proportion to the other. But at its core it makes just as much sense to look down on someone for a $2500 bag as a $5000 bag.

 

Please note I think its totally fine. I own a M2, and someday it might make it into the bag. But I also think its laughable to see people with three Epic woods in their sigs calling PXG users ego driven and idiots.

 

The problem with your argument is that the M1 and Epic lines actually have results to back up their claims. How many wins has PXG had? So, folks like me go and buy the Epic because it has been hugely successful. PXG is targeted towards the ego crowd that has to let everyone know that they spent more money on their clubs. This is fine, but lets just be honest about it. They aren't revolutionary, they don't have a pedigree, their performance gains (if any) don't justify the price increase to most. So, at the end of the day, what are they? Just over priced, over hyped. They are a niche club.

[rawdog]

I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

No worries then. The first posted I responded to sounded a whole lot like you said that the only reason to buy PXG was ego and implied if you see a PXG bag its all ego-driven, but if I misunderstood you then I misunderstood you.

 

"not quite the same thing... a better example would be if he were playing a gold plated honma driver and irons etc...... M1/M2 can be had so cheap used now that nobody thinks of them as "expensive"... "

 

Its exactly the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Nobody needs an M2 like nobody needs PXG clubs. The fact that one hooker costs $5 and one costs $5,000,000 doesn't make them not prostitutes. They are both selling snake oil, one is just more repugnant to most people because it is so out of proportion to the other. But at its core it makes just as much sense to look down on someone for a $2500 bag as a $5000 bag.

 

Please note I think its totally fine. I own a M2, and someday it might make it into the bag. But I also think its laughable to see people with three Epic woods in their sigs calling PXG users ego driven and idiots.

 

The problem with your argument is that the M1 and Epic lines actually have results to back up their claims. How many wins has PXG had? So, folks like me go and buy the Epic because it has been hugely successful. PXG is targeted towards the ego crowd that has to let everyone know that they spent more money on their clubs. This is fine, but lets just be honest about it. They aren't revolutionary, they don't have a pedigree, their performance gains (if any) don't justify the price increase to most. So, at the end of the day, what are they? Just over priced, over hyped. They are a niche club.

 

Sounds like pretty much any major OEM product.

 

As far as using professionals' results to back up claims, it isn't the product winning the tournament, it's the player. You spend enough money, you can buy yourself players who win. They were winning before they had your equipment too, which is why you looked to sign them.

 

Yes, I agree, let's be honest. You can approximate nearly any M1 or Epic setup with component parts and have it not make much impact on your performance. You're a 0.0 handicap. Maybe you'd be a 0.3 with component clubs. I say that half joking.

[SheriffBooth]

Cleaned out all the off topic posting, and all the replies to the off topic posting. Warnings and suspensions to follow.

 

Final warning in this thread - if it can't stay on topic it will be closed.

[chisag]

I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

No worries then. The first posted I responded to sounded a whole lot like you said that the only reason to buy PXG was ego and implied if you see a PXG bag its all ego-driven, but if I misunderstood you then I misunderstood you.

 

"not quite the same thing... a better example would be if he were playing a gold plated honma driver and irons etc...... M1/M2 can be had so cheap used now that nobody thinks of them as "expensive"... "

 

Its exactly the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Nobody needs an M2 like nobody needs PXG clubs. The fact that one hooker costs $5 and one costs $5,000,000 doesn't make them not prostitutes. They are both selling snake oil, one is just more repugnant to most people because it is so out of proportion to the other. But at its core it makes just as much sense to look down on someone for a $2500 bag as a $5000 bag.

 

Please note I think its totally fine. I own a M2, and someday it might make it into the bag. But I also think its laughable to see people with three Epic woods in their sigs calling PXG users ego driven and idiots.

 

... Like Facebook and politics I don't think anyone has read anything here and changed their opinion. Taylor Made clubs, both irons and driver, are in line with all other premium brands and cost no more than Titleist, Mizuno, Callaway, Ping, Srixon and Cobra. PXG is much more expensive than all other main stream premium brands. There are hundreds of thousands of golfers playing these $400-500 drivers and $1,000--1400 irons. There are a handful of golfers playing PXG in comparison. Lots of arguments to be made for and against either but saying someone that plays mainstream clubs is status or ego driven just not to the degree of PXG, just doesn't hold water.

[Jarlaxle]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

[Holy Moses]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

[Pigems]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

 

PXG didn't really do anything New. Is there really anything New to even do at this point?

[Jarlaxle]

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

Sort of like how PXG copied things others have done? Oh that's right... that part doesn't count.

 

[Holy Moses]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

 

PXG didn't really do anything New. Is there really anything New to even do at this point?

 

They have or had the thinnest-faced irons in golf

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

Sort of like how PXG copied things others have done? Oh that's right... that part doesn't count.

 

 

I've been very critical of PXG on that. Their woods are very much like Ping's too.

[PowderedToastMan]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

 

PXG didn't really do anything New. Is there really anything New to even do at this point?

PXG started from scratch, spending millions on R&D coming up with their iron design. Taylormade took that iron, reverse engineered it, and made very subtle adjustments. One is a very expensive process, the other usually a very cost-effective one. For Taylormade to say the P790 isn't largely influenced by the 0311 would be an outright lie. Gosh, the back of the iron, forgetting about the screws, has the same angles and curves.

 

This is just a guess, but I think Taylormade would have loved to use the same TPE foam as PXG, but that would have been outright infringement. Instead, they came up with some lame marketing that TPE is a "ball-speed killer" (which is an absurd statement, completely illogical), and came up with a proprietary "Speedfoam". This magical speedfoam, I believe, is an effort to differentiate from PXG, not because it's better, but because they didn't want to get sued. Think about it; the P790 is in a line of clubs marketing themselves as finely forged with superb feel. 0311 is known for it's unique, very soft feel, yet the 790 has a foam that feels harsher, more "clicky".

 

Why market "Speedfoam" in a line of clubs targeted at precision, especially when you have another range of irons for that? Because you couldn't use the insert you wanted so you needed to advertise the merits of a different insert (Speedfoam) to make up for that issue. I don't buy for a second that a P790 iron filled with TPE and one with Speedfoam go any different distances. I challenge Taylormade to put the two inserts in separate 6-iron P790 heads and release the results.

 

To your point about anything being new at this point: were you one of the guys in the late 1800's who thought the patent office should close because there was nothing new left?

[Jarlaxle]

It's pretty remarkable that PXG spent millions on R&D to design an iron from scratch... that looks so much like a Ping S55.

[new2g0lf]

In a blind test I doubt anyone would think the P790 sounds or feels better than PXG, most clones never feel as good as the original. If TM stole technology from Mizuno or Titleist the responses in this thread would be completely different. The only reason TM is getting any support is because more people have an axe to grind with Bob Parsons and PXG pricing.

 

I've never seen any other product get bashed because of their advertising like PXG is. I'm a marketing guy, I don't think their ads are great but I don't like the ads of a lot of products I use. Quite honestly i thought Nike had some of the best golf advertisements in the industry but that didn't do much for their equipment sales.

[Krt22]

Is no one here a proponent of protecting intellectual property and the investment and risk capital required for technological innovation?

 

what if TM did in fact have multiple infringements ?

 

100% a proponent of it, especially a since I hold multiple patents and work in a very IP sensitive industry. With that being said the PXG patent in question is weak at best and I really don't see them winning the suit.

 

I wonder if Parson's considered the potential risk of the patent being invalidated.

[Krt22]

I should sue all the OEM's for making such similar products yet successfully convincing me to purchase all of them.

 

That suit may have more merit than PXGs :taunt:

[the bishop]

To your point about anything being new at this point: were you one of the guys in the late 1800's who thought the patent office should close because there was nothing new left?

Not quite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_Duell

[mahonie]

It's pretty remarkable that PXG spent millions on R&D to design an iron from scratch... that looks so much like a Ping S55.

 

....using ex-Ping designers

[chisag]

I've never seen any other product get bashed because of their advertising like PXG is. I'm a marketing guy, I don't think their ads are great but I don't like the ads of a lot of products I use. Quite honestly i thought Nike had some of the best golf advertisements in the industry but that didn't do much for their equipment sales.

 

... The only advertising that comes close is the HammerX by Jack "Pow" Hamm and yes, he got just as much bashing as Bob "Kaboom Baby" Parsons.

 

[gioreeko]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

 

PXG didn't really do anything New. Is there really anything New to even do at this point?

PXG started from scratch, spending millions on R&D coming up with their iron design. Taylormade took that iron, reverse engineered it, and made very subtle adjustments. One is a very expensive process, the other usually a very cost-effective one. For Taylormade to say the P790 isn't largely influenced by the 0311 would be an outright lie. Gosh, the back of the iron, forgetting about the screws, has the same angles and curves.

 

This is just a guess, but I think Taylormade would have loved to use the same TPE foam as PXG, but that would have been outright infringement. Instead, they came up with some lame marketing that TPE is a "ball-speed killer" (which is an absurd statement, completely illogical), and came up with a proprietary "Speedfoam". This magical speedfoam, I believe, is an effort to differentiate from PXG, not because it's better, but because they didn't want to get sued. Think about it; the P790 is in a line of clubs marketing themselves as finely forged with superb feel. 0311 is known for it's unique, very soft feel, yet the 790 has a foam that feels harsher, more "clicky".

 

Why market "Speedfoam" in a line of clubs targeted at precision, especially when you have another range of irons for that? Because you couldn't use the insert you wanted so you needed to advertise the merits of a different insert (Speedfoam) to make up for that issue. I don't buy for a second that a P790 iron filled with TPE and one with Speedfoam go any different distances. I challenge Taylormade to put the two inserts in separate 6-iron P790 heads and release the results.

 

To your point about anything being new at this point: were you one of the guys in the late 1800's who thought the patent office should close because there was nothing new left?

 

Take a look at the PXG review right here on Golfwrx, the dimensions are basically the same as the Ping I25. Makes sense since the engineers were hired away from Ping. It's basically a hollow I25 with foam inside, just like some Taylor Made irons from the 90's. They have no basis for a lawsuit, and I predict will actually lose their patents based on prior art. Whoops.

[Sean2]

Oh I'm sure the clubs are fine, but I have a hard time believing they are twice as good as sets half their price. To me I see them as a "look what I've got" kind of club. Nothing else.

 

Why would you expect something that costs twice as much to be twice as good? That's generally not how golf clubs (or much else in the world) works. There generally is not a linear relationship between quality / performance and price.

 

For example, you might be able to get a boxed set of golf clubs at Walmart for $500 vs paying $2,000 for a set you piece together by buying a putter, irons, wedges and woods from major OEMs. The OEM stuff will likely be better, but it's not going to be 4x better (although I'm not really sure how you'd quantify that anyway). Maybe you'll hit the ball further with the OEM woods and maybe the OEM irons will feel better or be more forgiving, but it will be an incremental improvement only. Even if there was a massive improvement from the Walmart set to the OEM set, it's not reasonable to expect that same level of improvement at higher price points. As consumer goods get more expensive, improvements in quality / performance generally become smaller, and you pay more for them.

 

PXG clubs may offer an incremental improvement for some people over other OEM clubs, and those people need to make the same decision as the person who chose the OEM clubs over the Walmart boxed set. Is the extra money worth the improvement they're seeing from them? For some people it's worth it, for others it's not. For others, PXG clubs may not perform as well as other, cheaper clubs, in which case it's a pretty easy decision.

 

I'm sure there are some people who buy PXG clubs as a "look what I have statement", but it's incredibly small minded to say that there's no other reason to buy them. It's like seeing a middle aged guy drive past in a Ferrari and deciding he must be having a mid-life crisis or he must be compensating for something. Maybe he just loves cars, wanted a Ferrari since he was 6 years old and has made enough money that he can afford one. Judging other people by what they spend their money on usually says more about the person doing the judging than it does about the person being judged.

 

You can purchase an excellent bottle of wine for $20, or you can get one for $400. I am not sure that the $400 bottle will be THAT much better than the $20 one.

 

That said, I don't quite get all the negative PXG posts. It's not like we are being forced to purchase PXG clubs. If someone wants to spend that much money for a set of clubs that's his prerogative. It in no way affects our wallets or our golf game.

[PowderedToastMan]

The issue with PXG isn't the price per se. It's the promotion... i.e. "these clubs are really expensive because no one else goes to the lengths we do to build the best club and if you don't get that you're just jealous you can't afford them".

 

The problem (as has been noted at length in this thread) is that they aren't really a completely new design (or apparently, that expensive to build) after all. Taylor Made bought a set, tore them apart to see how they were built and then said "we can build something like this, only better and a whole lot cheaper". This happens in business every day and is the reason many companies live by the mantra "innovate or die".

 

In the end, PXG is suing because Taylor Made basically invalidated their entire business model. The fact that PXG walked into the punch isn't Taylor Made (or anyone else's) problem.

 

Innovate or die or copy someone's patent, make them do the hard R&D work, or die you mean

 

PXG didn't really do anything New. Is there really anything New to even do at this point?

PXG started from scratch, spending millions on R&D coming up with their iron design. Taylormade took that iron, reverse engineered it, and made very subtle adjustments. One is a very expensive process, the other usually a very cost-effective one. For Taylormade to say the P790 isn't largely influenced by the 0311 would be an outright lie. Gosh, the back of the iron, forgetting about the screws, has the same angles and curves.

 

This is just a guess, but I think Taylormade would have loved to use the same TPE foam as PXG, but that would have been outright infringement. Instead, they came up with some lame marketing that TPE is a "ball-speed killer" (which is an absurd statement, completely illogical), and came up with a proprietary "Speedfoam". This magical speedfoam, I believe, is an effort to differentiate from PXG, not because it's better, but because they didn't want to get sued. Think about it; the P790 is in a line of clubs marketing themselves as finely forged with superb feel. 0311 is known for it's unique, very soft feel, yet the 790 has a foam that feels harsher, more "clicky".

 

Why market "Speedfoam" in a line of clubs targeted at precision, especially when you have another range of irons for that? Because you couldn't use the insert you wanted so you needed to advertise the merits of a different insert (Speedfoam) to make up for that issue. I don't buy for a second that a P790 iron filled with TPE and one with Speedfoam go any different distances. I challenge Taylormade to put the two inserts in separate 6-iron P790 heads and release the results.

 

To your point about anything being new at this point: were you one of the guys in the late 1800's who thought the patent office should close because there was nothing new left?

 

Take a look at the PXG review right here on Golfwrx, the dimensions are basically the same as the Ping I25. Makes sense since the engineers were hired away from Ping. It's basically a hollow I25 with foam inside, just like some Taylor Made irons from the 90's. They have no basis for a lawsuit, and I predict will actually lose their patents based on prior art. Whoops.

For the record, I have no dog in this fight. I'm actually a PING man, and have been on their staff for years. I'm not anymore, but still loyal.

 

There may be some similarities in regards to looks at the address position re: 0311 and i25, but the similarities end there. Sole widths are very different, set makeup is less progressive, construction is entirely different, and the obvious, the i25 has a giant cavity in the back, whereas the 0311 is hollow and made to resemble a blade from behind. The 0311T, however, is shaped nearly exactly the same as the S55. The construction, however, is night and day from S55.

 

The issue with the P790 and 0311 is that the look and construction is copied. The entire iron is a blatant copy. You put TPE in the P790 and the irons feel and perform identically. Taylormade purposefully avoided screws and TPE to avoid exactly what's happening now.

[bogeypro]

Some people seem to be throwing alot of accusations at TM. What if its actually the other way around? What if PXG is afraid of being exposed for not doing anything special and charging top dollar for it. So, they decide to sue TM. Who has more to lose here, TM or PXG?

[new2g0lf]

I just heard that Dustin Johnson signed with Dunlop.

 

The person that can afford the $24.99 driver, and it meets his athletic requirements will buy that driver and I believe that that is great for golf.

 

On the other hand if the M2 for $499.99 meets another players requirements, this is also good. I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

PXG markets to their targeted players. as does TM or Dunlop. I think that tere are enough players worldwide that every OEM can sell their clubs to a certain consumer group without hurting one another.

Dunlop produces XXIO clubs in Japan, their drivers range from $649 - $849.

 

The fact PXG costs more than TM doesn't entitle TM to clone PXG irons and sell them at a discounted price. I still contend that if it was Titleist or Mizuno that had their IP stolen by TM, TM would be ripped to shreds in this thread. People seem to justify TM's actions because they have some issue with PXG.

 

This is ultimately about intellectual property, patents, reverse engineering and IP theft, the litigants shouldn't matter. If anyone violates someones IP and patents they should be held accountable.

If the court rules against PXG I have a serious concern about how patents are researched and issued because what TM has done is pretty blatant.

[bladehunter]

Put me on the list for predicting that pxgs patents will be thrown out as uninforcible .

 

And beside that point I still do not see the issue with the 790 iron. It doesn't look like pxg. Doesn't feel like pxg. And isn't being marketed as " as good or better than " pxg. So what's the issue ? Has more differences than similarities in my eyes. Someone please explain in detail without just saying " they copied pxg wha wha wha ".

[grm24]

Someone please explain in detail without just saying " they copied pxg wha wha wha ".

I'd like to see it as well.

 

So what exactly is unique about PXG irons or other PXG clubs? Lets check:

 

S25C steel? No.

Foam in iron club head? No.

Adjustable weighting in an iron? No.

Thin hot iron faces? No.

Dark Finish on irons? No.

Steel/Graphite shafts? No.

Rubber/Leather Grips? No.

Over priced? No. (See JDM clubs)

Scoring Lines on irons? No.

Over the top advertising? No.

Jacked Lofts? No.

Customizable? No.

Forged/Cast? No.

Original Iron Head Shape? No.

Perimeter Weighting? No.

Hollowed Out Irons: No.

Long Distance? No.

Exceptional Feel? No.

Inspire Confidence? No.

Greatest Clubs Since Sliced Bread? No.

Aggressive Grooves? No.

New Iron Grinds? No.

Thin/Thick Top Line? No.

Acceptable Offset? No.

Snazzy Graphics? No.

Owned by a conglomerate/wealthy individual? No.

Tour Presence? No.

Excessive Hype for a club? No.

CNC milled? No.

Shank proof? No.

8620 steel for wedges? No.

Adjustable hosels? No.

Forgiveness? No.

Tight tolerances? No.

 

Appears PXG offers nothing new/unique in their irons/clubs that hasn't already been done before. Does anybody really believe they have 128 unique patents as they claim in their lawsuit, that have never been done in other clubs previously?

[OrangeGravy]

I just heard that Dustin Johnson signed with Dunlop.

 

The person that can afford the $24.99 driver, and it meets his athletic requirements will buy that driver and I believe that that is great for golf.

 

On the other hand if the M2 for $499.99 meets another players requirements, this is also good. I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

PXG markets to their targeted players. as does TM or Dunlop. I think that tere are enough players worldwide that every OEM can sell their clubs to a certain consumer group without hurting one another.

Dunlop produces XXIO clubs in Japan, their drivers range from $649 - $849.

 

The fact PXG costs more than TM doesn't entitle TM to clone PXG irons and sell them at a discounted price. I still contend that if it was Titleist or Mizuno that had their IP stolen by TM, TM would be ripped to shreds in this thread. People seem to justify TM's actions because they have some issue with PXG.

 

This is ultimately about intellectual property, patents, reverse engineering and IP theft, the litigants shouldn't matter. If anyone violates someones IP and patents they should be held accountable.

If the court rules against PXG I have a serious concern about how patents are researched and issued because what TM has done is pretty blatant.

 

The entire patent process has been discussed pretty extensively in this thread. At least as extensively as humanly possible without putting everyone to sleep. The current process is far from perfect, but I think it's the only way it can function. The only other options would be to not have patents at all or have the patent office truly be the final say on the matter. If had final say it would have to be a massive organization employing multiple experts and minions in every conceivable area of product, business, or everything in essence, so they could thoroughly vet each application. It would have to be the foremost collection of experts and knowledge in the entire country because once they issued a patent it would be set in stone. Acquiring a patent in that world would cost magnitudes more than it already does now and I imagine be extremely difficult to get leaving only those with enormous resources the ability to get them.

 

I don't see anyone agreeing to pay for that.

[jdcadkin]

I just heard that Dustin Johnson signed with Dunlop.

 

The person that can afford the $24.99 driver, and it meets his athletic requirements will buy that driver and I believe that that is great for golf.

 

On the other hand if the M2 for $499.99 meets another players requirements, this is also good. I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

PXG markets to their targeted players. as does TM or Dunlop. I think that tere are enough players worldwide that every OEM can sell their clubs to a certain consumer group without hurting one another.

Dunlop produces XXIO clubs in Japan, their drivers range from $649 - $849.

 

The fact PXG costs more than TM doesn't entitle TM to clone PXG irons and sell them at a discounted price. I still contend that if it was Titleist or Mizuno that had their IP stolen by TM, TM would be ripped to shreds in this thread. People seem to justify TM's actions because they have some issue with PXG.

 

This is ultimately about intellectual property, patents, reverse engineering and IP theft, the litigants shouldn't matter. If anyone violates someones IP and patents they should be held accountable.

If the court rules against PXG I have a serious concern about how patents are researched and issued because what TM has done is pretty blatant.

 

You've completely missed the point of what the lawsuit is about. Whether PXG clubs and the 790s look alike is entirely legally irrelevant. Reverse engineering is encouraged and entirely acceptable. Making clubs that look similar is fine, too. You compare the 790s to the claims of PXGs patents. That's it. If the judge does not have his head up his a** the jury will not even see a PXG club in person because it simply does not matter.

[DBill]

I just heard that Dustin Johnson signed with Dunlop.

 

The person that can afford the $24.99 driver, and it meets his athletic requirements will buy that driver and I believe that that is great for golf.

 

On the other hand if the M2 for $499.99 meets another players requirements, this is also good. I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

PXG markets to their targeted players. as does TM or Dunlop. I think that tere are enough players worldwide that every OEM can sell their clubs to a certain consumer group without hurting one another.

Dunlop produces XXIO clubs in Japan, their drivers range from $649 - $849.

 

The fact PXG costs more than TM doesn't entitle TM to clone PXG irons and sell them at a discounted price. I still contend that if it was Titleist or Mizuno that had their IP stolen by TM, TM would be ripped to shreds in this thread. People seem to justify TM's actions because they have some issue with PXG.

 

This is ultimately about intellectual property, patents, reverse engineering and IP theft, the litigants shouldn't matter. If anyone violates someones IP and patents they should be held accountable.

If the court rules against PXG I have a serious concern about how patents are researched and issued because what TM has done is pretty blatant.

 

You've completely missed the point of what the lawsuit is about. Whether PXG clubs and the 790s look alike is entirely legally irrelevant. Reverse engineering is encouraged and entirely acceptable. Making clubs that look similar is fine, too. You compare the 790s to the claims of PXGs patents. That's it. If the judge does not have his head up his a** the jury will not even see a PXG club in person because it simply does not matter.

 

I specifically asked about reverse engineering when I was on the TM trip and if you don't do it from a manufacturer stand point, NOT JUST GOLF CLUBS, you fall behind.

 

Exhibit A. The iPhone. Yes it was a world changing phone, but since then, Samsung has built a better phone with better qualities and the iPhone is playing catch up.

[gioreeko]

I just heard that Dustin Johnson signed with Dunlop.

 

The person that can afford the $24.99 driver, and it meets his athletic requirements will buy that driver and I believe that that is great for golf.

 

On the other hand if the M2 for $499.99 meets another players requirements, this is also good. I'm not knocking PXG as a marketable brand or hacking on the players that play/buy/use their equipment.

 

PXG markets to their targeted players. as does TM or Dunlop. I think that tere are enough players worldwide that every OEM can sell their clubs to a certain consumer group without hurting one another.

Dunlop produces XXIO clubs in Japan, their drivers range from $649 - $849.

 

The fact PXG costs more than TM doesn't entitle TM to clone PXG irons and sell them at a discounted price. I still contend that if it was Titleist or Mizuno that had their IP stolen by TM, TM would be ripped to shreds in this thread. People seem to justify TM's actions because they have some issue with PXG.

 

This is ultimately about intellectual property, patents, reverse engineering and IP theft, the litigants shouldn't matter. If anyone violates someones IP and patents they should be held accountable.

If the court rules against PXG I have a serious concern about how patents are researched and issued because what TM has done is pretty blatant.

 

You actually have it backwards, Taylor Made put foam in a hollow iron over 20 years ago, my ex brother in law actually has a set. PXG will lose their patents, I can almost guarantee it.

[Jacked_Loft]

I'd like to venture another idea.

 

As with fashion, some trends or fads come and go. An example would be boot cut jeans: they were "in" 50 years ago, disappeared and have made a big comeback in the last 10 years. Don't flame me for not getting the periods right.

 

Another example is single length irons. It was tried several decades ago, disappeared and are now staging a comeback. The list goes on and on from gas filled drivers to cupped face fairway woods.

 

What if TM has simply decided to re-jump on the filled iron bandwagon? They already have experience in the technology, and are doing absolutly NOTHING except exploiting PXG's expensive initial marketing of a new trend. I bet 2 years ago the boys at TM simply said: "Hey look. PXG are bringing back the filled iron! Where are those old blue prints from 2002?"

 

I think that that's whats got Bob's gander up. He spent all that cash introducing a new trend, and TM has just jumped on the band wagon. They haven't copied anything, haven't infringed on any patents, and Bob dosen't have a leg to stand on.

[bogeypro]

I'd like to venture another idea.

 

As with fashion, some trends or fads come and go. An example would be boot cut jeans: they were "in" 50 years ago, disappeared and have made a big comeback in the last 10 years. Don't flame me for not getting the periods right.

 

Another example is single length irons. It was tried several decades ago, disappeared and are now staging a comeback. The list goes on and on from gas filled drivers to cupped face fairway woods.

 

What if TM has simply decided to re-jump on the filled iron bandwagon? They already have experience in the technology, and are doing absolutly NOTHING except exploiting PXG's expensive initial marketing of a new trend. I bet 2 years ago the boys at TM simply said: "Hey look. PXG are bringing back the filled iron! Where are those old blue prints from 2002?"

 

I think that that's whats got Bob's gander up. He spent all that cash introducing a new trend, and TM has just jumped on the band wagon. They haven't copied anything, haven't infringed on any patents, and Bob dosen't have a leg to stand on.

 

That same thing could be said for Callaway and composite heads. I remember the C4 back in the day.

 

What goes around comes around...

 

This will be really interesting case to follow. Club makers have to follow the trends, but can't "copy" anybody. That must be a tight rope to walk.