Still Stunned After Getting Estimate From Club Champ Fitting

[Shilgy]

 

Oh no, they bought the clubs. But it has made absolutely zero difference in their game. I know about 7-8 people using PXG's and not a single one is playing any better than they did with their previous irons. And, frankly, one or two of them is playing worse.

So the same as any other set of new clubs? Just the price point moved and apparently the boss could afford it.

 

Edited to add...I see a similar post and your reply. So we agree.

[North Texas]

 

Oh no, they bought the clubs. But it has made absolutely zero difference in their game. I know about 7-8 people using PXG's and not a single one is playing any better than they did with their previous irons. And, frankly, one or two of them is playing worse.

So the same as any other set of new clubs? Just the price point moved and apparently the boss could afford it.

 

Edited to add...I see a similar post and your reply. So we agree.

 

Yep, exactly the same as any other set of new clubs. And that's why I'm not sold on club fittings. It only benefits a very small percentage of people. For most it does pretty nothing to actually improve their game.

[Dscvrr St Louis]

Oh no, they bought the clubs. But it has made absolutely zero difference in their game. I know about 7-8 people using PXG's and not a single one is playing any better than they did with their previous irons. And, frankly, one or two of them is playing worse.

So the same as any other set of new clubs? Just the price point moved and apparently the boss could afford it.

 

Edited to add...I see a similar post and your reply. So we agree.

 

Yep, exactly the same as any other set of new clubs. And that's why I'm not sold on club fittings. It only benefits a very small percentage of people. For most it does pretty nothing to actually improve their game.

 

To extent I agree with you. But that is also why golfers need to have an open mind when doing the fitting. I have players come in all the time saying they want to get fit for Brand A, but the best fit is in Brand Z. Brand Z was more consistent than anything we tried with the right shaft, right lie, right length, right swingweight. It amazes me how a player will come in and say I want to be fit for this and only this, they are throwing away more benefits due to brand loyalty and it is 85% of the time NOT the best club for them. Most of my clients buy brand Z, they see the numbers, they feel the efficiency in the club, they see more consistent shots and distances.

[KMeloney]

you'd think you would have saw those posts as well

 

"Would have saw"? Writing is a skill, too. ;)

[MK7Golf21]

The best clubfitters are the guys with their own places. Club Champion builds all their clubs at the willowbrook club champion location and they aren't exactly expert club builders working the shop having to build so many sets. I'm not saying they are bad builders but people thinking they are getting some master clubbuilder and paying a huge premium are more than likely are just getting some golfer fresh out of high school building their clubs.

[North Texas]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

 

 

[Golfer4Life]

you'd think you would have saw those posts as well

 

"Would have saw"? Writing is a skill, too. ;)

 

Grow up!

[KMeloney]

you'd think you would have saw those posts as well

 

"Would have saw"? Writing is a skill, too. ;)

 

Grow up!

 

Yeah, that post wasn't directed at you (unless you could learn something from the irony of his posts, too).

[KMeloney]

The best clubfitters are the guys with their own places. Club Champion builds all their clubs at the willowbrook club champion location and they aren't exactly expert club builders working the shop having to build so many sets. I'm not saying they are bad builders but people thinking they are getting some master clubbuilder and paying a huge premium are more than likely are just getting some golfer fresh out of high school building their clubs.

 

That's a seriously broad generalization about fitters and having their own places...

 

What's with the assembly-at-Willobrook comment? I've seen my clubs in various stages of assembly at my local CC. I don't follow the comment.

[trhode]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

 

Cool Clubs has done this for a number of years as well as a few others that are located at actual golf courses.

[TKS]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

I do this all the time - if I'm doing a multi club build.

[MK7Golf21]

The best clubfitters are the guys with their own places. Club Champion builds all their clubs at the willowbrook club champion location and they aren't exactly expert club builders working the shop having to build so many sets. I'm not saying they are bad builders but people thinking they are getting some master clubbuilder and paying a huge premium are more than likely are just getting some golfer fresh out of high school building their clubs.

 

That's a seriously broad generalization about fitters and having their own places...

 

What's with the assembly-at-Willobrook comment? I've seen my clubs in various stages of assembly at my local CC. I don't follow the comment.

 

Their main clubbuilding facility is the willowbrook location, they have all the clubbuilding toys and stock at this location. I have been fitted there and they told me that's where most of the locations have their builds done. This is obviously more economical for them and makes sense

[SUMM1T]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

 

I offer every one of my clients this chance. We start indoors to dial in what we think is best, take the top 3 or so outside to the range and then take the top candidate out on the golf to prove it works or tell us we need to keep tweaking. My business relies on my clients being happy with their service AND their product. Club Champion, Golf Galaxy and other big box stores lose nothing if you walk out and aren't pleased with your purchase a while later. Fittings work, but only when the club fitter knows what they are doing and is willing to work with the client over the long haul. Every single client that comes to me gets my services until they are pleased. If that takes a week, so be it. If it takes longer, so be it. I will keep working with them and tweaking our product until they are pleased with what they see. As an independent fitter, my business would crumble to the ground if I copied the business model of CC or GG. Too many unhappy clients and not enough clients that leave knowing they were given great service, a great product, a great experience and all of it at a competitive price.

[augustgolf]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

 

I offer every one of my clients this chance. We start indoors to dial in what we think is best, take the top 3 or so outside to the range and then take the top candidate out on the golf to prove it works or tell us we need to keep tweaking. My business relies on my clients being happy with their service AND their product. Club Champion, Golf Galaxy and other big box stores lose nothing if you walk out and aren't pleased with your purchase a while later. Fittings work, but only when the club fitter knows what they are doing and is willing to work with the client over the long haul. Every single client that comes to me gets my services until they are pleased. If that takes a week, so be it. If it takes longer, so be it. I will keep working with them and tweaking our product until they are pleased with what they see. As an independent fitter, my business would crumble to the ground if I copied the business model of CC or GG. Too many unhappy clients and not enough clients that leave knowing they were given great service, a great product, a great experience and all of it at a competitive price.

 

Your story (and business model) reminds me of a guy that I met in Daytona, during Bike Week.

 

He detailed cars and motorcycles. He did some neat stuff, too. Like, renting a hot tub for "the girls" to jump in, while he and his crew were doing the bikes. Getting a sno-cone machine, and instead of using flavors like orange, grape, lime....he would instead "flavor" them with Jack Daniels, Southern Comfort, Captain Morgan, etc....

 

Anyway, I digress.

 

His model was this: once he finished detailing whatever it was he was doing...he would ask you to come look at it with him, and he wouldn't let you leave until you were completely satisfied with his work. If he needed to work another 10, 15, 40 minutes to have your COMPLETE satisfaction...that is what he would do. Never had a customer that didn't approve 100% of his work.

 

And, every year, people came looking for him. He turned people away, and this after "opening" several locations - which were really nothing more than space he would rent at a gas station or convenience store.

 

It is also a model I have used, when I was more active in the golf business, including golf ball purchases, equipment, instruction....until my customer achieved 100% satisfaction, my job was not finished.

 

Good for you, Summit - it is always great to know that there still exist people who understand and practice true customer service and satisfaction!

[Hambone1]

The best clubfitters are the guys with their own places. Club Champion builds all their clubs at the willowbrook club champion location and they aren't exactly expert club builders working the shop having to build so many sets. I'm not saying they are bad builders but people thinking they are getting some master clubbuilder and paying a huge premium are more than likely are just getting some golfer fresh out of high school building their clubs.

 

That's a seriously broad generalization about fitters and having their own places...

 

What's with the assembly-at-Willobrook comment? I've seen my clubs in various stages of assembly at my local CC. I don't follow the comment.

 

Their main clubbuilding facility is the willowbrook location, they have all the clubbuilding toys and stock at this location. I have been fitted there and they told me that's where most of the locations have their builds done. This is obviously more economical for them and makes sense

 

So having singularly trained people doing one job is bad?

[shoot4par]

Watched a video with Kim Braly of KBS Pureing came up he kind of chuckled and wouldn't go near the subject. Told me all I need to know.

 

The process is worthless. It's simply a way for clubmakers to jack up the bill for a totally unnecessary "service". I'd rather a priest sprinkle holy water on my clubs. It has more potential for benefit.

 

Depends on the priest- JP2- absolutely, Francis- Why not, Father Karras (Exorcist). Benedict the 16th- ehhh.

[SUMM1T]

The best clubfitters are the guys with their own places. Club Champion builds all their clubs at the willowbrook club champion location and they aren't exactly expert club builders working the shop having to build so many sets. I'm not saying they are bad builders but people thinking they are getting some master clubbuilder and paying a huge premium are more than likely are just getting some golfer fresh out of high school building their clubs.

 

That's a seriously broad generalization about fitters and having their own places...

 

What's with the assembly-at-Willobrook comment? I've seen my clubs in various stages of assembly at my local CC. I don't follow the comment.

 

Their main clubbuilding facility is the willowbrook location, they have all the clubbuilding toys and stock at this location. I have been fitted there and they told me that's where most of the locations have their builds done. This is obviously more economical for them and makes sense

 

So having singularly trained people doing one job is bad?

 

I think the point they were trying to make was the price they pay doesn't match the person who is building their clubs every time. If you pay $XXX to have your clubs built and someone else pays the same price, yet yours are built by someone with 6 months experience and the others are built by someone with 20 years experience, the price won't always match the end product.

[tbowles411]

Watched a video with Kim Braly of KBS Pureing came up he kind of chuckled and wouldn't go near the subject. Told me all I need to know.

 

The process is worthless. It's simply a way for clubmakers to jack up the bill for a totally unnecessary "service". I'd rather a priest sprinkle holy water on my clubs. It has more potential for benefit.

 

It also sounds like it is time for a dose of the facts regarding PUREing and other people like Kim B;s negative opinions of it. Hopefully this will help clear the air a bit.

 

Back in the winter of 1996 I was the guy that SST PURE founder Dick Weiss contacted for help to see if what he had been working on had any credibility or not. Dick had been working in the area of shaft symmetry, meaning whether shafts really did possess the same stiffness in any plane of bending. The rules of golf have always stated that a shaft shall be similar in bending properties no matter what the orientation of the shaft. Dick had found a lot of shafts that varied a lot when he did frequency measurements all 360* around the shaft - meaning he tested, rotated the shaft, tested, rotated the shaft, etc over and over and found pretty wide ranges in the frequency measurements.

 

Long story short, I did the testing in 96-97 that verified that if a shaft's asymmetry was severe enough, it would cause a shaft induced miss hit of the shot. I did most of my testing using the pros who taught in the Golfsmith Harvey Penick Teaching Academy, so the player hit testing group most certainly was skilled in ball striking. I also did work with this using an Iron Byron hitting robot, though I freely admit at that time in my career I was unaware how differently a robot caused a shaft to perform vs a human. That knowledge came later in my career.

 

The reason shafts did demonstrate such ranges in asymmetry back then was simply because no shaft companies had ever done what Dick was doing to perform extensive stiffness comparisons on shafts all around their circumference. The shaft companies simply assumed that if they made their shafts round with consistent wall thickness per each shaft's intended design, the matter of achieving the USGA's requirement for similar bending properties in all planes would be done. Dick's work opened the door to a problem the shaft industry had no idea existed.

 

Once I showed Dick he was on to something, Dick took the ball and ran with it to commission the development of the very sophisticated testing equipment that identifies a shaft's symmetry/asymmetry properties. Dick had the ex True Temper VP of engineering Howard Butler and Howard's assistant at TT do all the heavy lifting on the project. I got to see it all as it took place and I can assure you from a technical standpoint that the work Howard and MIke did to create the PUREing equipment was extremely high end. Dick spent a lot of money ensuring the equipment was first rate and indeed it was, and is.

 

When Dick introduced his company and its services the other shaft companies of course took note and began their own investigations. They too discovered that there had been a problem no one had thought to look into. As a result from the late 90s through the 2000s pretty much all of the quality minded shaft makers began to change their production and inspection procedures to enact their own forms of shaft symmetry testing. The net result was that slowly but surely through the 2000s the consistency of shafts from a symmetrical bending properties standpoint did improve a lot.

 

But I can tell you, during the testing I did back in the late 90s, we did encounter shafts from top shaft makers that were so significant for their asymmetrical bending properties that we could install them in a clubhead in such a way as to virtually eliminate a decent to good player from ever being able to lose a shot to the left or the right. Back then it was possible to find shafts and install them in such a way to eliminate a nasty draw or a nagging fade. BTW, Dick Weiss did have to go through some real screening with the USGA when he went to them with his process. The USGA was of course worried that Dick's discovery could open the door to companies or players installing shafts so they did unduly use technology to replace skill to influence the direction of the shot. So Dick only got an OK from the USGA after the USGA decided to make a statement to the effect that the intent and use of PUREing was to make shafts play as the rules intended them to be similar in bending properties in any plane and was not to be used to intentionally affect a change in ball flight.

 

But as Howard Jones said in his post, there will always be the outlier shafts in any production run that we refer to by the term "flyer", though typically you see more of these in graphite than in steel. This is because graphite shafts have more potential variables in material and production than do steel shafts. So what does all this boil down to in 2018 terms?

 

1) There is much less chance today for a shaft from a quality oriented company to cause a shaft induced miss hit than back when this all started, but it is still definitely possible.

 

2) When a shaft induced miss hit occurs from a condition of bending asymmetry, it happens when the shaft begins to go from loaded (curved back) to unloaded (curved forward) at impact. The asymmetry causes the shaft to move sideways a little as it bends forward on the line of the swing path coming into impact so it moves the head with it to cause the miss hit. That means a shaft induced miss hit can only happen for a player with a later to very late release because this is the swing move required to make the shaft arrive at impact curved forward. For players with an early to midway release, it is just not possible for an asymmetrical shaft to cause a miss hit because the shaft completes its forward bending and rebounds back to virtually straight by the time the clubhead gets to the ball. But as the player's release gets a little later and a little later to the point of being very late, this is when an asymmetrical shaft has the chance to cause a miss hit - of course depending on HOW MUCH it is asymmetrical. There are for sure varying amounts of asymmetry in shafts. Also, the higher the clubhead speed, the more a shaft induced miss hit is magnified. So it can be possible for a high speed player with a semi late release to see more of a shaft induced miss hit from an asymmetrical shaft than a slower speed player with a very late release.

 

3) The chances of a shaft induced miss hit from asymmetry is greater in wood shafts than in iron shafts. And it is greater in graphite than in steel shafts. This is because in terms of how much the shaft actually bends during the swing, shafts for woods bend about twice as much as do shafts in irons. This is because wood shafts are much longer than iron shafts and wood shafts are smaller in diameter than iron shafts. Graphite shafts being made from successive layers of resin+fiber pre preg wrapped over each other, over the forming mandrel have more possibilities for mistakes or tolerance errors to add up to create enough asymmetry to cause a shaft induced miss hit. Steel shafts are made from one homogenous alloy of steel, coiled and high frequency welded so there is far less chance of a significant asymmetrical condition. Even the HF welding seam is virtually a non issue in shaft symmetry. This process is so highly controlled that when the welded tube is drawn/stretched many times in the production to reduce the diameter of the welded tube, this HF weld seam is virtually impossible to see with an X ray inspection.

 

4) Many if not most of the quality minded shaft companies do some sort of check inspection to try to up the consistency of the symmetry of their shafts. But because SST PURE has patents for its technology, any other methods of shaft symmetry inspection testing have to stay away from that IP. It is pretty well proven though that there are other shaft symmetry testing methods that can weed out shafts that could otherwise cause a shaft induced miss hit and reduce the chances of this happening to be very small.

 

5) So the bottom line is that for sure, the chances of encountering a shaft induced miss hit these days when using quality shafts is far less today than in the late 90s, but it still can happen. And it pretty much would show up only for players with a later release. Which all means that better to very skilled players and especially those with higher clubhead speeds are about the only golfers who could experience such a situation in their shafts today. But because of the presence of "flyer" shafts and just plain random mistakes, it is possible. What it comes down to is this - if the player is worried about this sort of thing, having his shafts PUREd would be an insurance policy of sorts to do away with the doubt. Other than that, if you are good enough that you know your swing so well that you can tell the minute you strike a ball whether you made a good swing or not, if that kind of player hits shots where he sees an occasional shot fly a little funny/odd/off line/off center hit, then it is possible that could have been caused by an asymmetrical shaft.

 

And that's pretty much where it is at.

 

TOM

Thanks Tom. I was about to post something way basic than this. And your experience makes it real. And by the way, we PURE the hell out of KBS shafts. They're not perfect. None of them are. They're all off to some degree. We don't push it. We'll send you off to play with your new bag and want your feedback if you can tell the difference. In almost every case, they see it after PUREing. I was skeptical too, and I work for the shop. I played my irons without then with the process. I'll never play with a bag that isn't PUREd.

[DavePelz4]

That entire post is recycled? Apparently it's an annual November thing kind of like the Lions playing on Thanksgiving morning.

 

Wonder why he left Club Champion?

 

[cxx]

Was that some kind of weird non-sequitur?

[raynorfan1]

Still stunned that this thread has made it nine pages. You’d think this is the first “club champion is overpriced” thread we’ve ever had...

[KMo23]

Still stunned that this thread has made it nine pages. You’d think this is the first “club champion is overpriced” thread we’ve ever had...

Every November they pop up

[nsxguy]

you'd think you would have saw those posts as well

 

"Would have saw"? Writing is a skill, too. ;)

 

Grow up!

 

Yeah, that post wasn't directed at you (unless you could learn something from the irony of his posts, too).

 

In case you haven't noticed G4L has become Under2hours "lite". lol

[Howard_Jones]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

 

How many hours of his time are you willing to pay for? and at what rate per hour? thats really the question

[cxx]

Here's a thought I keep having.

 

When is a club fitter going to offer to do on-course fittings during an actual round of golf?

 

I offer every one of my clients this chance. We start indoors to dial in what we think is best, take the top 3 or so outside to the range and then take the top candidate out on the golf to prove it works or tell us we need to keep tweaking. My business relies on my clients being happy with their service AND their product. Club Champion, Golf Galaxy and other big box stores lose nothing if you walk out and aren't pleased with your purchase a while later. Fittings work, but only when the club fitter knows what they are doing and is willing to work with the client over the long haul. Every single client that comes to me gets my services until they are pleased. If that takes a week, so be it. If it takes longer, so be it. I will keep working with them and tweaking our product until they are pleased with what they see. As an independent fitter, my business would crumble to the ground if I copied the business model of CC or GG. Too many unhappy clients and not enough clients that leave knowing they were given great service, a great product, a great experience and all of it at a competitive price.

 

Nice try, and I admire your pluck, but by lumping in the high end club fitting businesses with Golf Galaxy and other big box stores, you're trying to paint the two as comparable when any reasonable Wrxer would know that's not the case. It's akin to an independent car repair place saying that his service is just as good as the local GM and Ford and Aston Martin dealer.

 

The dealer service experience at a Ferrari or Aston Martin dealership is not comparable to GM or Ford. It isn't expected to be, nor would it be acceptable to their clientele.

 

I understand this is a classic strategy, which is to backhandedly denigrate a competitor by lumping them in with an otherwise distinct group, but it makes me think that I would avoid you in favor of Club Champion or Cool Club or Miles of Golf because your willingness to obfuscate like this might also suggest that your own description and self assessment of what you provide might be unreliable.

 

I don't respect anyone that comes to this board to tear down a competitor, even if the criticism is legitimate. That's something that should be reserved to the customer. Sell me on what is better about your own business. If you can't do that in comparison. you won't win folks over.

 

As the young'uns say, "Just sayin'".

 

On the other hand, you are unwilling to acknowledge the difference between a large scale, advertising based business and a small independent shop who relies on word of mouth? I realize that the money as confetti crowd is a tempting target consumer, but golf clubs are not Ferrari's . At least Ferrari's are faster than your basic commuter car.

[wkuo3]

Just got fit at CC for 5-Gap and 3 wedges but they estimate is over 3 grand!!!! :stink:

 

Is it acceptable to charge me TWICE the actual RETAIL price for graphite shafts and more than TWICE for steel?...really??? On top of that a buddy of mine was at Fujikura 2 weeks ago and they laughed when asked about PUREing shafts. He was told Fujikura shafts go through PUREing before leaving the plant and the shafts will be screwed up if they go through PUREing again by a shop. So there's another $30 for each shaft that would not only be pissed down the drain but have an adverse effect on performance.

 

Yeah they charged more than retail for grips too...by at least 20%.

 

What am I missing? Feel free to defend them. I've got to know how they justify their prices. In CC's favor they did charge the full retail price for the clubs. No discount whatsoever. I know...I've heard this before to a degree but until it happens to you...

 

Thanks in advance!

 

If you're "stunned" by the estimate given, then , you had not agreed with the value received from the vendor.

If anyone feels they don't see the value, they should not go forth on the deal. Affordability is just part of the equation.

 

Same questions for you are, why would some plastic handbags cost $5,000 and up ? Why would some mass produced automobiles cost more than a dwelling ?

I'm in the camp of not following the crowd. If I don't see the value ( from my point of view ), then the personal choice is not to consummate the deal.

On the other hand, what is the value for knowledge ? Is your physician worth that kind of money? Your auto mechanic worth $200-$330 an hour for labor ? A piece of advice from your attorney worth $300-$2,000 per hour ?

I often find it amusing when consumers whom only shop for the lowest rate but not the total package. Well, it is what it is, the time we're in.

[MK7Golf21]

Nowadays, I see no difference between CC building my clubs and a pga superstore. Back in the day when Club Champion was a small company in willowbrook with some of the best fitters and clubbuilders who started the company, I did.

[shoot4par]

Nowadays, I see no difference between CC building my clubs and a pga superstore. Back in the day when Club Champion was a small company in willowbrook with some of the best fitters and clubbuilders who started the company, I did.

 

This is sadly the nature of most business expansion models....

[propman]

Benn following this topic. My take - the holiday fitting prices are worth pursuing (if you get a good fitter). The rest of their services are way too much $$$.

[reider69]

Benn following this topic. My take - the holiday fitting prices are worth pursuing (if you get a good fitter). The rest of their services are way too much $$$.

I purchased one of the $100 driver fittings on the xmas discount last year. I was put in a super dark hitting bay and ended up swinging the club like a caveman. I could never get comfortable and it was hard to see the ball. Not the ideal conditions for a fitting. The fitter never even gave me a recommendation on a club due to my inconsistent swing that day. I was offered a free fitting on another occasion which was nice, but honestly I don't ever want to be fitted indoors again. I want to be fitted where I can see my ball flight and where there is natural light present.