Improving score - Forgiving Irons or Forgiving Driver?

[mvhoffman]

What is more important... forgiving irons or forgiving driver?

 

This thread is not for seeking advice just a generalized opinion.  

 

There are a ton of threads out there talking about looking for a bit of forgiveness in irons and even wedges for that matter, with the tour version driver in their bag with a 6X shaft.  I pose the question as someone who just recently went back to blades, is it more important to have more forgiving irons/wedges or more forgiving Driver/Woods?  What would lower scores in your opinion?  I personally think that there are not enough people playing the more forgiving/playable drivers/woods and that is driving up scores.  I think that there is more of a consequence with hitting less forgiving "woods" than irons simply because of length of club/swing/speed/dispersion.

 

Could Callaway and Cobra have already thought about this when bringing back the offset Drivers/Woods that more and more people shy away from because they are not marketed properly?

Edited May 28, 2021 by mvhoffman

[jcvandamme]

For my own game, I think the forgiving driver is more important. I'm trying to find something a little more forgiving to replace my G400 LST because I don't like the results I get from mishits.

 

With the courses I play, it's much easier for me to shoot better scores when I'm in play off the tee as opposed to hitting 3 off the tee or punching out from the trees and trying to get up and down from 60 yards to save par.

[TiScape]

Reading threads here for quite a while now. I’d say the general consensus is that “forgiving” clubs will most likely only save a player a couple strokes a round. And then go on to say “a bad swing, is a bad swing”. As long as the specs of the clubs fit you. I’d tend to agree. 

[Davidv]

To me it is simply a matter of what your weakness is and what is costing you the most strokes. Offline and short drives or your iron shots.

[phizzy30]

It really depends on a few things.  More forgiving drivers tend to spin more in general and that may not be what the golfer needs.  Forgiveness all across the board isn't a bad thing, but when it affects spin, launch, etc., it can be actually work against the player.  I know guys will argue this until their faces turn blue, but getting fitted would be the way to go.  As for your question about lowering scores, improving short game is probably the most important thing.  What good is it to hit 300 yard bombs all day, have a decent iron game when your putting and shots inside 120 yards suck?  A golfer who's an average ball striker but really kicks a** at his/her short game will often find himself/herself shooting lower scores compared to golfer one. 

[ChipNRun]

It's important to have clubs that match your current swing. I believe your "forgiving irons vs. forgiving woods" is off vector.

 

As far as forgiveness goes, how much do you need? Circa 2008, I did a complete bag replacement to go beyond Dynalite Gold S300 (high-launch Dynamic Golf cousin) that weighed 120 grams.

 

I was looking at three Ultra Game Improvement iron models at the time: Ping G10, and Callaway Big Bertha (second wave) and X20. The G10 and BB both came with friendly heads and high-launch shafts. Butttt... Everything 7i and above was a moon ball - too much forgiveness. The X20s however had a mid-launch Uniflex shaft that worked quite nicely: Got longer irons up, without ballooning at the short end.

 

The driver was a Callaway HyperX Tour with an R-flex shaft. It worked super for several seasons. But when I tried a HyperX Tour 3W, it just didn't work. I cannot handle tour-headed or sub-zero type heads in fairway woods.

 

As for improvement, a poor short game and missing fairways will prevent you from scoring well. But to really improve and eventually break 80, you need to have iron approach shots that hold the green. GIR --> better scoring.

 

So, back to forgiveness? Get clubs that match your swing. And that takes us back to Law No. 1 of GolfWRX: get fitted!

 

[TiScape]

On topic of forgiveness. I went to the range and hit 50 balls with a Ping g710 6 iron “Pings most forgiving iron ever” according to them, and 50 balls with a Mizuno 919 Forged 6i. Besides the Pings feeling like 💩 compared to the 919s, the difference was negligible. I came away thinking I definitely got out of each shot what I put into it. There was unfortunately no “magic sauce” in the Ping. Now the 919 Forged isn’t exactly known as being unforgiving. Mizuno recommends it up to a 14 handicap. If I did the same thing with some 70s era butter knives vs. either the 919s or the 710s… I’d imagine a more definitive difference. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by TiScape

[mogc60]

Driver, wedge, putter!  The rest is just fluff really. Those three clubs are by far the most important to playing good golf. Get those right and your game will never be that far off. For the record I first heard that from a 7 time tour winner. Driver over irons any day. It sets up everything. 

[RogerinNewZealand]

Driver.

Keeping t ball in the fairway,in play, is a basic.Over xmas i spent lots of time with putter/grip/stroke/aim/eye line, and that made big difference for me.

Bought 915 3wd and Adams 16 3 wood plus an old 20 degree 7wd V Steel! 

Drivers, Ping Rapture V1 and 917d3.

Both medium spin,predictable,and yes 6 yards shorter than yours.

Will order some new wedges in a few months for our October Season.

The DriverWedgePutter comment is correct for long folk/pros

Driver,5wd,8i,56,putter has always been my Combo to focus on.Got to have Confidence with Driver🤗

[JAM01]

I would opt for fairways on the second shot, so a forgiving driver. 

[jacincm]

Correctly fitted clubs is the answer. Regardless of driver or iron

[TiScape]

2 hours ago, mogc60 said:

Driver, wedge, putter!  The rest is just fluff really. Those three clubs are by far the most important to playing good golf. Get those right and your game will never be that far off. For the record I first heard that from a 7 time tour winner. Driver over irons any day. It sets up everything. 

Well said. The more I think about the OP. The more I think a better way to put it is, what’s more important to work on/focus on. Like mogc60 said, driver 1st. It sets up everything else. If you can’t consistently put your tee ball in play, how well you hit your irons isn’t gonna help much. 

[Kale_m]

My game depends on my driving. I hit it long enough that even from the back tees on 6900-7100 yard courses I play that if I am hitting driver good I have lots of wedges and short irons into most par 4’s. 
 

get me in be fairway. I will shoot around par 

[PEI_Golfer]

Even if I have a relatively poor iron day, if my driver is on, it won't be that bad a scoring day.  If the driver is off, that is just too much scrambling to salvage a decent score.  Playing from the fairway is a different game than the trees or rough...

[STL_Baller]

I do what I must off the tee to essentially play 18 par 3s so my long game is where I want my forgiveness to be.  I want more precision in the shorter 'attacking' clubs ie 8 iron down.  Inside that 150y zone I want to be able to hit a number (or close to it) or a specific part of the green to guarantee a 2 putt.  Does it always happen?  No.  But it happens more often than not when I'm in the fairway, and less often than not when i'm not in the fairway off the tee.  

 

I've built my bag accordingly, with as forgiving a driver as I can fit to me, same with 3 wood.  A workable but still fairly forgiving 5 wood, some players distance long irons, players cavity mids, and blades in the scoring clubs....less forgiveness and more precision as i go through the bag.  Do I have to swing well....yes, and pretty much with everything, but the odd miss here and there is amiplified on the longer clubs for me at least.  Outside of building my bag this way and having my swing in check, its all about managing your misses and following your plan of attack on a course.

[rp4golf]

3 hours ago, mvhoffman said:

What is more important... forgiving irons or forgiving driver?

 

This thread is not for seeking advice just a generalized opinion.  

 

There are a ton of threads out there talking about looking for a bit of forgiveness in irons and even wedges for that matter, with the tour version driver in their bag with a 6X shaft.  I pose the question as someone who just recently went back to blades, is it more important to have more forgiving irons/wedges or more forgiving Driver/Woods?  What would lower scores in your opinion?  I personally think that there are not enough people playing the more forgiving/playable drivers/woods and that is driving up scores.  I think that there is more of a consequence with hitting less forgiving "woods" than irons simply because of length of club/swing/speed/dispersion.

 

Could Callaway and Cobra have already thought about this when bringing back the offset Drivers/Woods that more and more people shy away from because they are not marketed properly?

Hmmm.... where to begin.

The problem as I see it with any of the leading manufacturers "properly marketing" more forgiving equipment to the average driver is two-fold: (1) They've been there, done that. Decades ago they tried spending money to make offset drivers and fairway woods, and players quickly found while the clubs appeared magical the first round or so that the swing faults that resulted in them hitting big slices with their old sticks soon took over their offset drivers, and they gained a bad reputation and manufacturers quickly abandoned making them. It's just like a few years ago, all the majors had drivers (and fairways) with moveable and slideable weights (to aid the average golfer to adjust them to their own swing), and now I think they've all just as quickly gone away from those type of designs for the most part as well. (2) Golfers are vain. They want to play the clubs their favorite tour players use, to the point (just like you) of sticking blades in their bags, regardless the fact that the majority of tour pros aren't even using them - and do every year, as manufacturers release their latest models, that sell like gangbusters. Looking good on the first tee appears to have more appeal than looking good in the 19th hole.

[LeoLeo99]

Looking at the pros, they play forgiving drivers and a forgiving long iron or two and not so forgiving short and mid irons.  

[LeoLeo99]

1 hour ago, Kale_m said:

My game depends on my driving. I hit it long enough that even from the back tees on 6900-7100 yard courses I play that if I am hitting driver good I have lots of wedges and short irons into most par 4’s. 
 

get me in be fairway. I will shoot around par 

Golf is a lot easier if you drive it 300 yds middle of the fairway every hole.  

[Kale_m]

1 minute ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Golf is a lot easier if you drive it 300 yds middle of the fairway every hole.  

Even if I am in the first cut. I don’t hit many 5/6/7 irons into many par 4’s. Usually I have those in on par 5’s 

[SwooshLT]

I'm not questioning the skill set of those contributing to this thread but even from the fairway,  you're still missing tons of greens ! Only a handful of players convert their opportunities with fairways hit.....Fred Funk was the straightest driver in recent memory but without converting that into birdie chances it's a moot point.....so unless your struggles with the tee ball is either OB or never hitting , I'd take good solid forgiving irons

[ctmason_98]

I apologize if I am ignoring your request not to give advice. But, I don't have any idea why one would need to prioritize one over the other. 

 

I also don't think that people not playing forgiving drivers and other woods is "driving up scores" is anywhere close to reality.  The hundreds of factors for most golfers shooting higher scores (than what, one is inclined to ask) cannot be simplified like that. In my opinion, at least. 

 

Back to your question, if we could magically give everyone more forgiving woods and keep their irons the same, it wouldn't lower scores substantially. "Forgiving" isn't universal for everyone and doesn't automatically follow that the golfer hits better shots. 

[PEI_Golfer]

15 minutes ago, SwooshLT said:

I'm not questioning the skill set of those contributing to this thread but even from the fairway,  you're still missing tons of greens ! Only a handful of players convert their opportunities with fairways hit.....Fred Funk was the straightest driver in recent memory but without converting that into birdie chances it's a moot point.....so unless your struggles with the tee ball is either OB or never hitting , I'd take good solid forgiving irons

 

Problem with using a PGA Tour player as a model is that he plays PGA Tour set up courses.  Unless at a top end private or a baked out muni, we don't see greens speeds or fairways as tight as what they do.  So more forgiving green speeds and fairway length help out.

 

Funk also wasn't a long hitter by any means, and even with his straightness, I'd 100% guarantee he would give up 20% of those fairways hit for another 20+ yards off the tee.  The chance to potentially be another 2 clubs closer is massive and Bryson is showing that now when he is on.

[JDennis]

Definitely driver in my opinion. I rarely hit my 4-7 iron. If a long hole it is Driver, and 3w or 19 hybrid, then 8-putter for the rest. I probably use my Pw, 50 and 56 the most in a round for my irons. 

[TiScape]

15 minutes ago, JDennis said:

Definitely driver in my opinion. I rarely hit my 4-7 iron. If a long hole it is Driver, and 3w or 19 hybrid, then 8-putter for the rest. I probably use my Pw, 50 and 56 the most in a round for my irons. 

Good point. If my driver is on, I’m rarely hitting any iron longer than a 7. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by TiScape

[SwooshLT]

1 hour ago, PEI_Golfer said:

 

Problem with using a PGA Tour player as a model is that he plays PGA Tour set up courses.  Unless at a top end private or a baked out muni, we don't see greens speeds or fairways as tight as what they do.  So more forgiving green speeds and fairway length help out.

 

Funk also wasn't a long hitter by any means, and even with his straightness, I'd 100% guarantee he would give up 20% of those fairways hit for another 20+ yards off the tee.  The chance to potentially be another 2 clubs closer is massive and Bryson is showing that now when he is on.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with added distance,  the question was more forgiving driver to hit more fairways.......

[SwooshLT]

Guys, are we talking adding distance with this "forgiving " driver? Because that's a totally different topic......

[mogc60]

Doesnt forgiveness add distance on slight mishits. My point was get a driver you can hit that helps you drive it more accurate. That in itself adds distance consistently. Get a wedge you can score with and a putter you trust. Irons are only so forgiving anyway. 

[SwooshLT]

29 minutes ago, mogc60 said:

Doesnt forgiveness add distance on slight mishits. My point was get a driver you can hit that helps you drive it more accurate. That in itself adds distance consistently. Get a wedge you can score with and a putter you trust. Irons are only so forgiving anyway. 

 

So a forgiving driver now puts wedge in your hand repeatedly?  

Seriously,  do you score better hitting 14 fwys and 4 greens or 4 fwys and 14 greens? 

[dubbelbogey]

If we're talking about modern drivers - ~460cc, especially anything built in the last 10 years, then pretty much everything you can get is what I'd consider "forgiving". They're all forgiving compared to all of the smaller headed drivers that preceded them - whether that is the original GBB, TM Burner, or the original steel headed drivers that were persimmon sized and finally back to actual persimmons. I think one needs a driver in this modern class to score their best.

 

All modern drivers are within extremely similar spec (relative to scoring effectiveness) regarding performance in any category - whether you call that distance, dispersion or "forgiveness". 

 

I've long been on the record in saying that irons don't matter a heckuva lot. Get what fits your length, lie and flex and the rest is practically noise. (Within reason, of course. If you go back to hitting your granddad's 1960's Spaldings, that's a different thing altogether.)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by dubbelbogey

[mogc60]

51 minutes ago, SwooshLT said:

 

So a forgiving driver now puts wedge in your hand repeatedly?  

Seriously,  do you score better hitting 14 fwys and 4 greens or 4 fwys and 14 greens? 

I personally score better hitting 12 fairways and 16 greens...I mean not every golf course has 14 fairways on the stat sheet and not even the best hit them all. But we all score better in play. The op asked driver or irons...I think the driver is more important