Improving score - Forgiving Irons or Forgiving Driver?

[Nixhex524]

52 minutes ago, SwooshLT said:

 

So a forgiving driver now puts wedge in your hand repeatedly?  

Seriously,  do you score better hitting 14 fwys and 4 greens or 4 fwys and 14 greens? 

 

Hard to argue with this.  GIR is key and if you are a terrible putter then driver or irons doesn't really matter anyway.  I can have days where I am hitting fairways with my G400 Max but missing greens, then the next week, total opposite.  Still have to swing it well, but the more greens I hit, the better I score.

[SwooshLT]

8 hours ago, mogc60 said:

I personally score better hitting 12 fairways and 16 greens...I mean not every golf course has 14 fairways on the stat sheet and not even the best hit them all. But we all score better in play. The op asked driver or irons...I think the driver is more important 

 

You circumvented the options but it's ok.....your answer and anyone's answer should be the same.....I think most people on here are decent players......maybe fine tune or tweak something in their game. But as guys they understand the game we also realize that a collaboration between driving,  good iron play and a nice putter is the safest/best way to score ....... someone mentioned above that we're into 460cc heads that compared to each other , there isn't a significant amount of difference......heads have become more stable and less energy loss in different strikes.   Irons that supposedly help you on bad swings really don't......however the slight miss does get helped imho.....

Either way , to single out one faction as the most help? Really falls on the user and for me it's iron confidence 

[ChipNRun]

21 hours ago, TiScape said:

There was unfortunately no “magic sauce” in the Ping. Now the 919 Forged isn’t exactly known as being unforgiving.

 

You have shown an example of "too much forgiveness." A person with above-average clubhead speed will find the SGI heads balloon the ball too much, and cause the player to lose distance compared to more aggressive iron heads.

 

Growing up playing the old DG S300 shafts, I have no problem "squaring up" the clubface. Don't need lots of offset. (Note: once upon a time I played DGs, just not in the last 15 years...)

 

As per Pings, I had discussed a fitting with with a local shop. Fitter said we'll skip G710 - too much offset - and start with G425s. 

[martinbns]

It depends on from where you are trying to improve from.  If a 20 wants to become a 12 that is eliminating big holes and for that it's keeping it in play 14 times off the tee and making bogeys instead of doubles or worse.

[SwooshLT]

14 minutes ago, martinbns said:

It depends on from where you are trying to improve from.  If a 20 wants to become a 12 that is eliminating big holes and for that it's keeping it in play 14 times off the tee and making bogeys instead of doubles or worse.

 

 

You've never seen or made a double or worse after a perfect tee ball? 

[lefthack]

Wrong  Apparently it's course management. 🤣

 

 

[Ben Berube]

On 5/28/2021 at 4:47 PM, JAM01 said:

I would opt for fairways on the second shot, so a forgiving driver. 

Agreed here. Any bsd day for me is not hitting drives. I can miss greens a bit and get up and down. But missing fairways makes the game SO much harder. 

But the next question is “what is considered a forgiving driver for you”?

For me its an M2 or G 10.5’s I have and go back to them often. Otherwise I have an M3 I usually play and misshits are still fairway.

 

Get your tee ball in the fairway and you will be rewarded!  

[JAM01]

2 minutes ago, Ben Berube said:

Agreed here. Any bsd day for me is not hitting drives. I can miss greens a bit and get up and down. But missing fairways makes the game SO much harder. 

But the next question is “what is considered a forgiving driver for you”?

For me its an M2 or G 10.5’s I have and go back to them often. Otherwise I have an M3 I usually play and misshits are still fairway.

 

Get your tee ball in the fairway and you will be rewarded!  

For me the 2016 M2 and the G425 are the 2 that have worked best off the tee. The game is more fun from the fairway. 

[jvincent]

8 hours ago, SwooshLT said:

 

 

You've never seen or made a double or worse after a perfect tee ball? 

Yes, but you'll make more doubles from a hazard/OB/trees off the tee than you will from the middle of the fairway.

[nitram]

Amazed we haven't heard much from the Broadie crowd...

[Z1ggy16]

I guess it depends but I'd say neither?? It depends so much on your game...but I'd rather have the most "forgiving"/consistent wedges personally.

 

Like with irons, more forgiving heads might harm you long term if your main issue is face to path rather than strike location. If I over draw the ball too much and hit it a little toe side... I'm prob better off losing distance since my spin is already going to drop off. If I play super forgiving/hot irons, that ball might end up some where quite bad.

 

[SwooshLT]

34 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Yes, but you'll make more doubles from a hazard/OB/trees off the tee than you will from the middle of the fairway.

 

But that's not forgiveness......that's just swing improvement 

[Texas Golfer]

Maybe it’s all relative, but all drivers seem pretty forgiving to me currently.  I see the primary key to making them more forgiving is to keep the shaft length to 45” max and under.

[jvincent]

5 minutes ago, SwooshLT said:

 

But that's not forgiveness......that's just swing improvement 

 

Yes and no.

 

A more forgiving driver won't, in theory, go as far offline.

 

Speaking from personal experience, doubles from the middle of the fairway are not avoided by more forgiving irons. Hitting an approach a little fat or off the toe rarely leads to a bad score. Cold topping one into the hazard in front of you or double-crossing one OB will lead to double. To your point, those are swing improvement issues.

[Marty86]

I agree that a forgiving driver for high handicappers will help. Being able to hit a 7i or less into the green will make it easier than anything else. My driver this year has allowed me to do that and has allowed me to drop my handicap from about 30 down to a 20 currently. Now if I can just get more consistent iron play and improve my putting and I can get around 15.

 

But the days my driver is off, I really struggle and the score change can be between 4-8 strokes more. But that is due to inconsistent long irons and still trying to figure out my hybrids.

[Fairway14]

Tee box game is important and I think playing 3-wood, driver, driving iron, hybrid etc.... from the par 4 and par 5 tee boxes will produce lower 18 hole scoring than swinging driver from the tee boxes. 

[llamont]

I think a more forgiving driver/longest club is more important than forgiving irons. If you have fairly decent swing mechanics then you will probably have success with different iron designs (player, GI, SGI) as long as the shaft profile is correct for the individual. 

[BackNineCollapse]

People in general are very off on what a forgiving club actually does.  Forgiving designs have very little effect on left/right dispersion (excluding cases where a weight bias can counteract a swing flaw, which can be an independent feature separate from a high MOI 'forgiving' design).  Yes, a higher MOI club (iron or driver) will, all other things being equal, have a slightly lower face closure rate.  But in practice that's almost never the case as the difference in moment force is miniscule compared to the forces actually in play.  Plus, even for people that do see a significant effect on face closure rate (not as in a big effect, but one that is actually statistically measurable), it's just as likely to be a detriment as a bonus (in practice it's more commonly a detriment as most amateurs leave the face too open).

 

Forgiving clubs improve distance dispersion by preserving ball speed on non-centered hits.  So the question isn't would you rather be in the rough with your drive or miss the green left/right with your iron.  The question is when you miss the sweetspot would you rather hit your drive or approach shot 10 yards shorter.  The difference between a blade and a SGI club in terms of forgiveness is how far it flies when you catch it 3mm low, 5mm toe side (as an example, that happens to be the most common miss for 5-10 HC golfers), compared to when you flush it.  On on a robot using 35degree club, a typical blade loses 10% distance, typical SGI looses 2%  So say a perfect shot goes 155, that means on this slight mishit, the blade goes 140, while the SGI goes 152.  Compared to a drive going 250 vs. 240 which would you choose?   Of course sole design, offset, CG all play a role also (offset works by giving more time for the face to close, it typically has a much bigger effect on face closure than MOI), but it still mainly comes down to front-back dispersion.

 

The biggest impact on driver left/right forgiveness comes from backspin.  You reduce curvature by neutralizing spin axis, the easiest way to do that is increase backspin (it's easier than fixing face/path).  High MOI drivers tend (but not always) to have CGs that are further back, thus produce more spin.  But this is not universal, and there are ways to increase backspin (and thus decrease curvature) with a more forward CG (i.e. loft, AOA...).  If you are missing lots of fariways and not curving the ball very much, you have a significant path or alignment issue that probably isn't best remedied with a driver (a weight bias driver can help, but is often a temporary bandaid, weight biases are best used to mitigate a two way curvature miss.)

 

Again looking at 5-10 HC golfers, hitting their drive 10 yards farther, regardless of direction (the scenario where mishits are protected, so not really farther in this case, but loose less yardage) improves score by 1.1 strokes (note this is if every drive is 10 yards longer, or not 10 yards shorter as is the case here).  Coming up short of the green on a single approach shot adds 0.6 strokes on average.  Certainly not every short approach shot (5-10 HCs come up short of their target on almost 2/3 of their approach shots, not all of which miss the green) is due to a poor strike, poor club selection certainly plays a role also (it's 153 to carry the water, ok, I hit my 7 iron 160 (148 carry, 12 yards roll), perfect club...).  But it's also unlikely all 14 drives will be, or need to be, protected.  Add to that that the consequences of a 10 yard shorter drive are rarely catastrophic for your score, while coming up 10% short with a 7 iron can be a round killer.

 

And the last thing to keep in mind is there really aren't any un-forgiving drivers anymore.  Not only have companies become much more adapt at positioning the CG (to maximize the benefits/compromises of MOI), but face technology has also led to significantly improved ball speed retention independent of MOI. Compare that to irons where their really hasn't been any significant improvement in MOI (there are exceptions, but there have always been exceptions).  And while iron face technology (cup face, suspended faces with/without foam, speed slots, etc.) has also advanced, the magnitude of possible benefit is much, much smaller due to size limitations.

[Pepperturbo]

My irons are not forgiving, and driver is only slightly forgiving, so neither is best.  Solid ball striking and better thinking around the course improves score.   Probably not what you want to hear though.  Oh, well..

Edited June 1, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[GLF4EVR]

Another answer that neither side of the issue will like....which ever one of the 2 will improve your GIR's will improve your score.

[bazinky]

Personally, I want the amount of forgiveness to be be directly related to the length of the club. I find it a lot tougher to consistently hit the middle of the face with a driver than I do with a wedge. Even back when I used to play blades, I didn't feel like I saw that big of a difference with more forgiving irons until I got to the mid and long irons. 

[M_B_H]

Lots of good comments to this post. IMO, a good game starts with a good drive. I've played with a flawed golf swing and an assortment of ill fitted drivers and that made finding the fairway nearly impossible. Once I got those two issues figured out, the game became much easier.

 

I vote for a well fitted forgiving driver. 

 

[Jifmoli]

Just joined a club, and boy is there a premium on hitting it straight! If it goes in the rough, no point looking for it (and no one does!). Thus for me a forgiving driver and woods over irons.

 

Basically, the longer you can hit it, the longer you can miss as well (shanks don't count here)

[sfdoddsy]

It is pretty easy to work this out. 

 

Go back over your best rounds (putting aside)..

 

Were they the result of being in the fairway?

 

Or from being longer but in the rough?

 

For me, a bad drive is more penal than a bad iron.

 

At worst a mishit iron will be left (I hook) but close to the green. Always a chance of up and down.

 

At worst a mishit driver will be OB, in water, in tree or somewhere horrible.

 

I suspect forgiveness is over-rated overall, but I'd much rather have it from my driver.

[SwooshLT]

19 hours ago, BackNineCollapse said:

People in general are very off on what a forgiving club actually does.  Forgiving designs have very little effect on left/right dispersion (excluding cases where a weight bias can counteract a swing flaw, which can be an independent feature separate from a high MOI 'forgiving' design).  Yes, a higher MOI club (iron or driver) will, all other things being equal, have a slightly lower face closure rate.  But in practice that's almost never the case as the difference in moment force is miniscule compared to the forces actually in play.  Plus, even for people that do see a significant effect on face closure rate (not as in a big effect, but one that is actually statistically measurable), it's just as likely to be a detriment as a bonus (in practice it's more commonly a detriment as most amateurs leave the face too open).

 

Forgiving clubs improve distance dispersion by preserving ball speed on non-centered hits.  So the question isn't would you rather be in the rough with your drive or miss the green left/right with your iron.  The question is when you miss the sweetspot would you rather hit your drive or approach shot 10 yards shorter.  The difference between a blade and a SGI club in terms of forgiveness is how far it flies when you catch it 3mm low, 5mm toe side (as an example, that happens to be the most common miss for 5-10 HC golfers), compared to when you flush it.  On on a robot using 35degree club, a typical blade loses 10% distance, typical SGI looses 2%  So say a perfect shot goes 155, that means on this slight mishit, the blade goes 140, while the SGI goes 152.  Compared to a drive going 250 vs. 240 which would you choose?   Of course sole design, offset, CG all play a role also (offset works by giving more time for the face to close, it typically has a much bigger effect on face closure than MOI), but it still mainly comes down to front-back dispersion.

 

The biggest impact on driver left/right forgiveness comes from backspin.  You reduce curvature by neutralizing spin axis, the easiest way to do that is increase backspin (it's easier than fixing face/path).  High MOI drivers tend (but not always) to have CGs that are further back, thus produce more spin.  But this is not universal, and there are ways to increase backspin (and thus decrease curvature) with a more forward CG (i.e. loft, AOA...).  If you are missing lots of fariways and not curving the ball very much, you have a significant path or alignment issue that probably isn't best remedied with a driver (a weight bias driver can help, but is often a temporary bandaid, weight biases are best used to mitigate a two way curvature miss.)

 

Again looking at 5-10 HC golfers, hitting their drive 10 yards farther, regardless of direction (the scenario where mishits are protected, so not really farther in this case, but loose less yardage) improves score by 1.1 strokes (note this is if every drive is 10 yards longer, or not 10 yards shorter as is the case here).  Coming up short of the green on a single approach shot adds 0.6 strokes on average.  Certainly not every short approach shot (5-10 HCs come up short of their target on almost 2/3 of their approach shots, not all of which miss the green) is due to a poor strike, poor club selection certainly plays a role also (it's 153 to carry the water, ok, I hit my 7 iron 160 (148 carry, 12 yards roll), perfect club...).  But it's also unlikely all 14 drives will be, or need to be, protected.  Add to that that the consequences of a 10 yard shorter drive are rarely catastrophic for your score, while coming up 10% short with a 7 iron can be a round killer.

 

And the last thing to keep in mind is there really aren't any un-forgiving drivers anymore.  Not only have companies become much more adapt at positioning the CG (to maximize the benefits/compromises of MOI), but face technology has also led to significantly improved ball speed retention independent of MOI. Compare that to irons where their really hasn't been any significant improvement in MOI (there are exceptions, but there have always been exceptions).  And while iron face technology (cup face, suspended faces with/without foam, speed slots, etc.) has also advanced, the magnitude of possible benefit is much, much smaller due to size limitations.

 

 

Guys, read this completely and thoroughly to the end...... forgiveness with driver doesn't save bad swings , it retains more speed in turn less distance loss.....you guys with the concept of OB or penalty areas have a poor interpretation of forgiveness.  

[blakesmittkamp]

driver for me.  Not allowed because of spam data shows forgiveness in scoring irons doesn't make any big difference until you get in like the 6-3i range.  fairways hit are my personal biggest predictor of strong scoring.  

[Orion12521]

How often do you hit driver versus irons?  Quick scenario for a 0 handicap playing a par 72 course with 3 par 5 and 3 par 3:

 

14 times hitting driver

6 times hitting fairway woods

34 putts (This is the average for all golfers, would likely be less for a 0 handicap - which would increase the # of iron shots)

 

Leaves 18 iron shots for the round

 

As your handicap goes up, it's likely that 90%+ of the additional shots are with your irons.  So a 10 handicap hits 27 iron shots, a 20 handicap hits 36 iron shots...  Driver is what everyone focuses on, but you hit your irons more times than your driver in a given round.  Additionally, you can potentially make up for a bad tee shot with a subsequent iron shot.  If you want to get the best return on your effort, focus on the area where you take the most strokes.  It's likely putting, then irons, then driver and then fairway woods.

[TiScape]

I find it silly we’re talking about “I want to hit said amount of fairways so I’m taking the forgiving driver”. Like the driver is going to make the difference! 😂 Let’s be realistic. The crap swing that resulted in a missed fairway with the TSi3 is going to result in a missed fairway with the G425 MAX 99% + of the time as well. This topic comes down to what’s more important? driver game or iron game. If this was solved by what clubs we choose, we’d all be scratch golfers. 

[fj_magni]

   Last year I made very significant improvements in my game. The majority of the improvement came from driving. To the original question, forgiving driver vs forgiving irons, I used a Callaway Rogue Draw driver which was marketed as a forgiving driver.

   To this day I am amazed how far certain toe and heel strikes still travel relative to older drivers I used. Honestly, in some cases you feel guilty that the ball is on the fairway, at a decent distance, based off the strike location. 

   In my mind, the forgiving driver does have the ability to improve scores more than forgiving irons. 

[mgoblue83]

Driver is the most important club in the bag. If you find or dial in a driver for a consistent and playable "miss" then you will hardly ever make big numbers and almost always be in position to score well.