Abnormal course conditions on putting green

[Robert L.]

At the local 9-hole cow pasture my son and I play some of the greens are, shall we say, questionable.  Generally they're all OK to putt on, and they do get aerated and mowed on a regular basis. However, on a few of them the edges of the greens have no grass on them and look barren and scraggly. I've included some pictures to show what they look like. Does this qualify as abnormal course conditions as per Rule 16.1 of the Rules of Golf, allowing me relief?

[antip]

The fundamental in golf is play the ball as it lies, unless some rule or local rule permits otherwise. That applies to all those photos here unless the Committee has provided any local rules that provide relief.

[tatertot]

8 minutes ago, antip said:

The fundamental in golf is play the ball as it lies, unless some rule or local rule permits otherwise. That applies to all those photos here unless the Committee has provided any local rules that provide relief.

Fundamental rule of golf is to enjoy yourself ... unless you're in a tourney or playing for money, ain't no way I"m putting through that crap. Life's too short.

[SNIPERBBB]

We have spots like that at our local course because a former greenkeeper 5-6 years ago sprayed fertilizer on the greens when it was 95+ outside and killed the greens, hence the former part of his title and still haven't recovered.  We've designated such spots as GUR and you can take line of play relief.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, tatertot said:

Fundamental rule of golf is to enjoy yourself ... unless you're in a tourney or playing for money, ain't no way I"m putting through that crap. Life's too short.

 

Life's too short to wait pristine conditions, I always say.

[rp4golf]

13 hours ago, Robert L. said:

Does this qualify as abnormal course conditions as per Rule 16.1 of the Rules of Golf, allowing me relief?

 

 

The simple answer is no.
But end of the day, as others have mentioned, unless you're playing in a tournament or turning in scores relative to maintaining a handicap, strictly following the rules of golf can be kind of pointless ("the committee" everyone keeps mentioning would be the group at your course that could declare certain areas as ground under repair, and allow you to move your ball from those areas) ... I mean, who are you trying to torture? ... and to me it's like kicking your ball out of a bad lie or divot in the fairway - Enjoy the game, and don't get caught up in the small stuff.

Edited June 5, 2021 by rp4golf

[Sawgrass]

Robert, as you’ve been informed, it’s not an abnormal course condition unless the Committee says it is.  But I want to applaud your interest in the technical rule, IMO it’s more fun to play by the rules than it is to make things up as you go along. 

[Robert L.]

Well, so far I've been told that this is not an abnormal course condition, unless the Committee (whoever and whatever that is) says differently. I disagree. I've played on plenty of courses where the greens don't look anything like this, and I'm sure Tour quality courses also don't look anything like this. "Normal" greens should not have bare patches along the edges like in the pictures. In the course of normal play my son and I both take relief if our ball is in them, with the exception of the second picture. It's a par 3, and my tee shot is where the ball is, just short of the green. I'm pretty sure I get no relief from this, so I chipped on and wound up a few feet from the pin, where I putted in for my par.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Robert L.

[Sawgrass]

6 minutes ago, Robert L. said:

Well, so far I've been told that this is not an abnormal course condition, unless the Committee (whoever and whatever that is) says differently. I disagree. I've played on plenty of courses where the greens don't look anything like this, and I'm sure Tour quality courses also don't look anything like this. "Normal" greens should not have bare patches along the edges like in the pictures. In the course of normal play my son and I both take relief if our ball is in them, with the exception of the second picture. It's a par 3, and my tee shot is where the ball is, just short of the green. I'm pretty sure I get no relief from this, so I chipped on and wound up a few feet from the pin, where I putted in for my par.

I suspect everyone will agree with you that these conditions are abnormal, but not abnormal as per the rules of golf definition, which would require the committee to call them ground under repair to qualify. Here’s the definition:

 

Abnormal Course Condition

Any of these four defined conditions:

• Animal Hole,

• Ground Under Repair,

• Immovable Obstruction, or

• Temporary Water.

 

The committee is the group in charge of the course in general, or in charge of a formal competition. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Augster]

I agree that you get no relief. But….

 

in a group of two or more you can be your own committee. If THAT committee (you and your son) decide that such patchiness on the greens is ground under repair (ACC), just deem it GUR for your competition and take relief as per the rules. Totally legal. Totally legal for handicap posting. 
 

The rules of handicapping allow this as the more local rules you introduce, the easier the game is to play, and the lower your posted cap will be. 
 

Would I move it? Absolutely not. The committee in charge of the course didn’t deem it GUR so I’d play it as it lied. Don’t like the lie, don’t hit it there. 

[2bGood]

That course looks like it was recently carpet bombed. Yikes.

 

You have great answers from a rules point of view above. Auguster and Sawgrass have it pretty well covered. 

 

[596]

In our group of 4, when presented with spots that bare we would all agree to move the ball no closer to the hole.  I'm betting that the course rating and slope did not include putting through dirt. 

 

I play 2 different courses. One is a public course that sees 70,000 rounds a year.  Currently the greens are mediocore at best.  Sprayed for goose grass and lost a bunch of the grass.  The greens are tough to putt with a course rating of like 68.  The club I play at has absolutely perfect greens and rated at 70.  The club is much easier to putt and score on, as its tough to putt on those public greens.  

 

If you want an accurate handicap, moving the ball away from those spots is probably called for.

[GLF4EVR]

Our local course sometimes has green issues at the start of the season from winter kill &/or elk/deer.  They will usually rope off the area for quick growth & have it as placing the ball no closer on the "un-roped" part of the green.  At least the majority of the time this occurs around the edges of the greens & they always recover quickly.

 

[Pepperturbo]

I've encountered similar at a few munis.  Usually they don't let greens get that bad, but sometimes sh** happens.  I write it off as the Rules official didn't have time to make his course rounds to mark GUR everywhere, so move the ball.  But in a game, by the rules, play it as it lies. 

 

 

[rogolf]

"Abnormal course condition" is interpreted as abnormal for that specific course.  If these areas are normal throughout the course, they are not abnormal for that course.  When determining what is abnormal, it is important to tour the entire course first in order to get a sense of what is normal.

But it is ugly and unfortunate.

[Tupperwolf]

Lots of greens at my home course are like this.

 

I normally play it as it lies but in this case I pitched over with a wedge to about 4'.

 

 

[Robert L.]

57 minutes ago, rogolf said:

"Abnormal course condition" is interpreted as abnormal for that specific course.  If these areas are normal throughout the course, they are not abnormal for that course.  When determining what is abnormal, it is important to tour the entire course first in order to get a sense of what is normal.

But it is ugly and unfortunate.

Number 1, 2, 5, 6, and 9 are OK, with no large bare patches. 3, 4, 7, and 8 have those bare patches as in the pictures I uploaded. I consider it abnormal, and if it is considered grounds under repair then there should be something there indicating that it is, but I'm not holding my breath. The course we play is a low-budget course popular with retirees who aren't millionaires, like me. They take my money, give me a scorecard, pencil, and the key to a cart, and send me and my son on our way.

[antip]

9 hours ago, tatertot said:

Fundamental rule of golf is to enjoy yourself ... unless you're in a tourney or playing for money, ain't no way I"m putting through that crap. Life's too short.

OP asked about the rules, not the road to nirvana. 

[trilerian]

I have a question very similar. The 2 courses I have a pass to get areas pretty close to the pics in this post. During tournaments they are all marked GUR with white spray paint around them. But aside from the tournaments, they are never marked and no posted local rule for them. My understanding is tough luck and I play the ball as it lies, but I have always been curious to the inconsistency.

[SNIPERBBB]

17 minutes ago, trilerian said:

I have a question very similar. The 2 courses I have a pass to get areas pretty close to the pics in this post. During tournaments they are all marked GUR with white spray paint around them. But aside from the tournaments, they are never marked and no posted local rule for them. My understanding is tough luck and I play the ball as it lies, but I have always been curious to the inconsistency.

Courses are cheap. They arent going to waste money on spray paint outside of big events, especially when most players are just gonna do what they want anyways for casual play. Only time theyll mark or post something like this is if they want to make sure that you dont play or step on those areas.

[rogolf]

Only time they'll mark or post something like this is if they want to make sure that you don't play or step on those areas.

Imo, it's not about the playing or stepping on those areas - if that was their concern, they would make sure that it was always marked every day.  Their concern for tournaments, again imo, is that every player has the opportunity/responsibility to play it the same way - by the Rules.

And it's not likely the cost of the paint that is a concern, more likely it is the cost of the knowledgeable person to go and do it.  Most times for tournaments, it is volunteer labor that does it.

Edited June 5, 2021 by rogolf

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Only time they'll mark or post something like this is if they want to make sure that you don't play or step on those areas.

Imo, it's not about the playing or stepping on those areas - if that was their concern, they would make sure that it was always marked every day.  Their concern for tournaments, again imo, is that every player has the opportunity/responsibility to play it the same way - by the Rules.

And it's not likely the cost of the paint that is a concern, more likely it is the cost of the knowledgeable person to go and do it.  Most times for tournaments, it is volunteer labor that does it.

Not if they arent bothering to try and repair those spots. If they seeded the spots like they just did here, they mark.

Edited June 5, 2021 by SNIPERBBB

[Greenie]

There is a course I play with greens similar to those pictured. We always move our balls a little to the left or right no closer to the hole to avoid those conditions. There are two holes that have the bad spots running all the way through the middle of the greens and the pins are always on the left of the bad spots. If you land on the right side of the green there is no way to move your ball side to side to avoid them. On those we always putt through the bad spots. That's how we play on greens that look like that. 

 

They closed three of the holes late last yr to repair them but they look the same this yr. It's a cheap priced course so we live with it. Over all it's a good layout and not in that bad of shape except for some of the greens.

[limegreengent]

Robert

"You get what you pay for'

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by limegreengent

[antip]

Courses in Oz with crappy greens like that, and no money/resources to spend time painting the white paint on a regular basis, just post the following local rule "Bare patches on putting greens are GUR, relief is available under Rule 16.1d". Sometimes they may add - "Relief is not available for interference with stance only." It is that easy for a club/course/Committee to protect competition players from those problem areas. 

[Pfish]

I’m wondering if you ever asked in the pro shop, “are big bare spots on the greens considered ground under repair?”  If the answer is yes moving ball no closer to the hole, which is what most people would do anyway under the circumstances, would be playing strictly by the rules.  I think it is a good learning experience with your son to get comfortable with the rules so that if he is ever in a competition he will be less likely to make a mistake costing him strokes because he lacks practice playing by the rules.

[BNGL]

On 6/4/2021 at 12:26 PM, SNIPERBBB said:

We have spots like that at our local course because a former greenkeeper 5-6 years ago sprayed fertilizer on the greens when it was 95+ outside and killed the greens, hence the former part of his title and still haven't recovered.  We've designated such spots as GUR and you can take line of play relief.

If the turf hasn’t recovered from an incident 5-6 years ago you need to find another superintendent. I know a guy that put out a herbicide that wasn’t labeled for paspalum greens, at five times the rate mind you, that has fully recovered and is weed free to boot. 

[RCGA]

I'd considering it GUR and move it as I see fit, regardless of the local rule. I'd also have no problem turning in the score for handicap purposes. 

[bcski]

As I am sure this course has no "committee"...  Yes, you are entitled to relief, even if you are turning in scores for handicap.  The "intent" of the rules is an integral part of golf.

[Quasimoto]

 

On 6/4/2021 at 8:56 PM, rogolf said:

Only time they'll mark or post something like this is if they want to make sure that you don't play or step on those areas.

Imo, it's not about the playing or stepping on those areas - if that was their concern, they would make sure that it was always marked every day.  Their concern for tournaments, again imo, is that every player has the opportunity/responsibility to play it the same way - by the Rules.

And it's not likely the cost of the paint that is a concern, more likely it is the cost of the knowledgeable person to go and do it.  Most times for tournaments, it is volunteer labor that does it.

 

 

I get what you are saying, but I think the question is a common one among mid-amateurs. Why does tournament play get special treatment with respect to relief and GUR over the daily player? I have seen this countless times where daily players play out of and over all kinds of crap conditions, just like the pics here detail, and then the day a tourney shows up they are all marked GUR. Hardly equitable rules and conditions.