Hot topic these days: bad etiquette and clueless golfers on the course. Can we fix this?

[RoyalMustang]

We've all seen it recently. Slow play-refusal to pick up even as you hold other groups up behind you. Grinding over a 20-foot putt for 50 seconds then hitting it 12 feet past the hole and 5 feet wide as you try to save your triple bogey. Driving carts up onto the green. Not repairing ball marks. Being a drunk jerk and negatively affecting others around you. Yesterday these 2 kids playing with me started talking right at the top of my backswing-probably the worst shot I hit all day was the result.  

 

A friend says it's due to Topgolf introducing people to the sport, rather than when golfers introduced newbies. When golfers showed others the ropes, the first topic was probably etiquette, as it affects others. When I was a kid, that was what my grandma taught me. She knew nothing about a swing but emphasized "don't walk in someone's line, don't talk when someone is swinging, don't walk behind someone getting read to hit, be respectful at all times".  

 

How do we get there? Should courses start hosting etiquette primers before rounds? Ban offenders who get complaints? Some people may not know the rules; others are entitled jerks. Obviously it's a societal issue as fewer people abide by societal norms and then act however they want, but there has to be a way to get control of this problem, aside from joining a private club. 

[caniac6]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

We've all seen it recently. Slow play-refusal to pick up even as you hold other groups up behind you. Grinding over a 20-foot putt for 50 seconds then hitting it 12 feet past the hole and 5 feet wide as you try to save your triple bogey. Driving carts up onto the green. Not repairing ball marks. Being a drunk jerk and negatively affecting others around you. Yesterday these 2 kids playing with me started talking right at the top of my backswing-probably the worst shot I hit all day was the result.  

 

A friend says it's due to Topgolf introducing people to the sport, rather than when golfers introduced newbies. When golfers showed others the ropes, the first topic was probably etiquette, as it affects others. When I was a kid, that was what my grandma taught me. She knew nothing about a swing but emphasized "don't walk in someone's line, don't talk when someone is swinging, don't walk behind someone getting read to hit, be respectful at all times".  

 

How do we get there? Should courses start hosting etiquette primers before rounds? Ban offenders who get complaints? Some people may not know the rules; others are entitled jerks. Obviously it's a societal issue as fewer people abide by societal norms and then act however they want, but there has to be a way to get control of this problem, aside from joining a private club. 

It happens at private clubs, too. A lot of people, even nice guys, seem to be completely oblivious to other players in their group. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Can't force it. They aren't likely to listen to people that they don't know or don't respect .

 

 

Or hire former mob enforcers as marshals.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[Augster]

It’s always been this way. 
 

The only really new addition to buffoons on the course is loud music. Before the Bluetooth speaker was invented, there were plenty of people out there every day that didn’t fix ball marks, didn’t fill divots, played slow, putted out for a 12, waited on a par 5 for the green to clear from 280 when their drive only went 220, took 13 minutes talking to the cart girl, drove carts onto the apron, etc. etc. etc. 

 

The only difference now is that you can HEAR them from hundreds of yards away. So before, if you weren’t immediately behind the buffoons, you’d hardly know they were there. You might LOOK over at another hole and say, “Look at that moron parked on the fringe.” And that was that. 
 

Only now you can hear their music also. 
 

TopGolf is introducing people, that is correct. I think it’s more the problem of scrambles introducing people to golf. Follow any scramble and you’ll see 4 unreplaced divots right next to each other, over and over. No etiquette is taught in scrambles. And scrambles are the first time on a course for a lot of people. And a certain small percentage of people will take up the game once they try it. 
 

But the buffoons have always been with us. We just weren’t affected by them unless we were immediately ahead or behind them. Now, with pervasive sound, they can be virtually everywhere on the course. 

 

[tatertot]

4 minutes ago, Augster said:

It’s always been this way. 
 

The only really new addition to buffoons on the course is loud music. Before the Bluetooth speaker was invented, there were plenty of people out there every day that didn’t fix ball marks, didn’t fill divots, played slow, putted out for a 12, waited on a par 5 for the green to clear from 280 when their drive only went 220, took 13 minutes talking to the cart girl, drove carts onto the apron, etc. etc. etc. 

 

The only difference now is that you can HEAR them from hundreds of yards away. So before, if you weren’t immediately behind the buffoons, you’d hardly know they were there. You might LOOK over at another hole and say, “Look at that moron parked on the fringe.” And that was that. 
 

Only now you can hear their music also. 
 

TopGolf is introducing people, that is correct. I think it’s more the problem of scrambles introducing people to golf. Follow any scramble and you’ll see 4 unreplaced divots right next to each other, over and over. No etiquette is taught in scrambles. And scrambles are the first time on a course for a lot of people. And a certain small percentage of people will take up the game once they try it. 
 

But the buffoons have always been with us. We just weren’t affected by them unless we were immediately ahead or behind them. Now, with pervasive sound, they can be virtually everywhere on the course. 

 

I disagree ... It's never been like this.

 

My course has a lot of high school players, and they're being taught things I've never seen before. In the interest of "ready golf", they no longer help they're playing companions look for lost balls ... They play out of order ... They'll putt out while others are still in the fairway ... They'll move to the tee while others haven't gotten to the green ... They continue to walk while others are hitting ... And it still takes them up to 6 hours to play a round of golf. It's actually almost comical to watch them play ... Unless you're behind them. And they're the future.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

I think it’s more the result of Covid than TopGolf. 
 

All these people who never, ever thought of playing golf (probably made fun of people who played) all of a sudden it was about the only thing they could do. The only thing open. So let’s go “golfing”.  
 

It’s “Bro” golf. Just an excuse to drink beer and be loud and obnoxious. We had another one wreck another cart last weekend. Head on into a tree.  I’m also  amazed in the last couple of years how many people I’ve seen get a bucket of beer to go the range. 
 

Unfortunately,I don’t think there is anything to be done about it. No one is teaching those etiquette basics, and I’m not sure most of these new people would care anyway. Kind of indicative of society today. “If it’s good for me that’s all that matters”.  If there is a negative effect on someone else, so what, it works for me. 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

No it can’t be fixed. People are just ***HOLES to be honest. Not saying it’s the majority of people. But there are enough out there that make the game harder for others on the course. There use to be 2 guys in my group that are ***HOLES. So I know the feeling. 

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

My course has a lot of high school players, and they're being taught things I've never seen before. In the interest of "ready golf", they no longer help they're playing companions look for lost balls ... They play out of order ... They'll putt out while others are still in the fairway ... They'll move to the tee while others haven't gotten to the green ... They continue to walk while others are hitting ... And it still takes them up to 6 hours to play a round of golf. It's actually almost comical to watch them play ... Unless you're behind them. And they're the future.

 

 

Can’t believe I am agreeing with @tatertot but this is spot on.

 

I was a walking scorer for a pretty high level junior tournament last year. They took FOREVER on the greens. But tee to green they walked while others were hitting, went to the next tee once they holed out with two golfers yet to putt, and never, ever helped another player look for a lost ball. So different from what I was taught in junior high school golf. On the second hole of the tournament I watched the last person putt out only to find BOTH of the other players had already teed off on the next hole. But of course I was still on the green because the player putting out took an unreasonable amount of time over a 3 foot putt. Crazy 

[Macroach]

Just wondering what changed over the years with the high school golfers. I am perhaps wrongfully assuming the coaches for the teams should be teaching them proper etiquette. Is it an overall societal shift that we notice in the younger golfers because they are “taught” this way?  Maybe their coaches can’t properly enforce etiquette because of entitled kids or overbearing parents. I would hope they aren’t being taught to play this way but if so, it’s a sad state of affairs. 
 

I returned after 15 years off. I have noticed an increase in unrepaired pitch marks on the greens. I don’t know why people are too lazy or too clueless to perform this simple repair. I love finding my pitch mark just so I know where the ball landed (my eyes are not as sharp as they used to be). 

[kiwigolf72]

Unfortunately I don't think there is anything you can do to stop this, the etiquette of the game is slowly being lost.

 

[Flashman]

Can't blame this just on the young folks. I live on the 7th T of a private course and I watch it out my back windows every day. I see it from everyone.  From the music on the course to the bad etiquette towards other golfers. There really is no respect for the course.  What good reason is there to drive a cart on the T box?

[kiwigolf72]

I agree not only the younger players, golf had a bit of a boom and attracted people who have different values than the more traditional players. 

[JetSpeed79]

I realize not everyone has these options but:

 

1. Avoid the weekends. 
2. Avoid the afternoons (play weekday mornings). The earlier the better. 

 

Yes you will play with nothing but the elderly. It’s great! In real life I’m 43 but out there it’s like I’m 18. Some days I’ll see 50-100 other golfers, and the next youngest one is maybe late sixties. I’m still waiting for our cart girls to start offering applesauce and compression socks. 
 

Honestly these are the best people to play with. They respect the course and the game. The conversation and stories are fantastic. And you get to hit 9i when they are hitting 13 wood, (or whatever it is they play with - all the while silently running hard from the fact that you will one day play this way too). 
 

It’s a great vibe out there. Although I wouldn’t mind seeing a few less cigar butts…

[PJE]

6 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

Obviously it's a societal issue as fewer people abide by societal norms and then act however they want,

It is this and the “doubling down” when called out.
Throw in a need for either: attention, expressing oneself, dominance,  or “respect” and you have today’s society.  
Boomers raised a bunch of crappy kids who are now raising crappier kids. 

It can’t be fixed. 

[Nickb333]

As a 64yr old player since the 70’s I’ve seen both sides. 
 

Currently, I’m fixing more ball marks than ever. 4-5 per hole. 

 

I don’t care to have music on the course but it doesn’t really bother me.
 

If I’m on a cart, I’ll always help look for balls unless we’re off pace. I really hate being behind a hole. If I’m walking I’ll help unless it’s 100 yards off my line. 
 

Ready golf is good in most instances though. But, Walking away from the green while others are putting is a punk move unless you’re way off pace. I do prioritize keeping up over many etiquette principles. 
 

Yet, on occasion, something physical goes wrong. You ding a knee or shoulder and dang, it slows you down. Still no excuse for taking a minute to hit a 3 footer, or your 3rd shot from a bunker. 
 

Bottom line for me after all these years. You’re out there to play golf. You’re out there to enjoy golf. Please help those around you do the same. 

[Warrior42111]

I think it is an overall societal issue IMO. Just for background mid 30s social player, I also coach youth sports so I can see how age groups react to each other.

 

First, I think etiquette isn't being taught in a way best for the younger generations. Even when I started in the early 2000s I learned from people on the course who would just say do this don't do that. From my experience saying 'do this beacuse....' don't do this it was cause this....' has a better response from younger people, myself included. Let the person know why a rule or action is proper. 

 

Second, across all ages the past 10 years or so I've seen a growing trend of looking out for their interests and theirs only. This is in every life situation not just golf. 

 

Finally, some societal norms change. Some etiquette items should never i.e repair divots and ball marks, carts away from greens, basic pace of play etc. Other things are going to change with the times. 

 

 

[RoyalMustang]

12 hours ago, Flashman said:

Can't blame this just on the young folks. I live on the 7th T of a private course and I watch it out my back windows every day. I see it from everyone.  From the music on the course to the bad etiquette towards other golfers. There really is no respect for the course.  What good reason is there to drive a cart on the T box?

 

I know what it is: golf carts have ruined the sport!!!

 

OK, I'm mostly kidding, but there is something to it. I played a lot for a couple of years as a kid until we moved, and then never again picked up a club until COVID. Back then, the only people that took out carts were either really old/couldn't get around well, or were drunks that needed a place for their case of beer. 70% of people walked; walking a course was and is integral to the sport is what my coach taught me. Plus, our course was 9 holes and an easy 3-mile walk. If you are walking, you very likely have more of an interest and appreciation for golf. How many "inconsiderate bro golfers" do you see walking a course? I don't think I've ever seen one since I started playing again. Frat party? Guaranteed to be drinking heavily and driving golf carts.   

 

Fast forward to today; the advent of carts lowers the "barrier for entry" for these folks who are jackasses and don't care about the sport. 

 

Now, I'm not saying that people who use carts are jackasses. I am saying that most of the jackasses use carts. I'm sure there are exceptions but speaking from experience, I've probably dealt with 20 different jackass playing partners over the past 2 years. All were in carts. I've probably walked rounds with 50 different people in the last 2 years, 40 of which I had never met, and I don't recall any of those guys/gals being anything but courteous and easy to play with. Each and every one was a "golfer" in that they knew etiquette and the sport; they also played regularly. 

 

Feel free to disagree or flame me. I love to hear about golf culture in a place such as Australia where carts aren't in use. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by RoyalMustang

[Rob G 89]

Where I play Marshall’s are useless, I’ve taken matters into my own hands and started yelling at people.

a couple weeks ago some girls with there bfs were playing and every hole they were taking selfies and other pics holding up play 

after 10 holes I’ve had enough when one of the girls was in her backswing I yelled real loud, she is like why you do that? I go why you play slow and good everyone up? She had no response I left after 10 holes it’s so frustrating now a days

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

I don't think it is fair to just blame young folks. It sounds like an old man party with a bunch of old men that forgot they weren't born yesterday at the ripe old age of whatever. 😄 (I feel like I'm gonna pay for saying that)

The Golf World - as a sport and organization - is teaching kids to play marathon golf. It's about cramming as many people onto the course as possible without regards for the quality of the experience. There are only regards for the profitability of the course and general customer service to keep people coming back. So, there is little to no emphasis in etiquette because that takes additional time. They are quite literally taught to move about as individuals. I've had to adapt to it at least a couple times; but arguably not that often.

 

The thing is, I've not noticed young golfers not helping others find their golf balls. They've helped me (I'm 42) and I've helped them. I don't see a correlation to "help finding a golf ball" with age. People seem equally helpful or unhelpful in that regard. Even I don't always help look for a ball when I have to find my own and two of them are looking for one or the other's. Seems like it works just fine. For the record, the 20 somethings I've played with this year were plenty helpful to me.

So, as much as I can't stand the (slightly at times) younger folks blasting music, I don't think it is fair to say they're the only ones prone to being jack asses. Plenty of old men, for example, make comments about other people's games in a way that throws a guy like me off.

"What, you think you can hit it that far? PFFT!"

Well, not after that..... LOL

 

Yet, the next week I got cussed out by a group of angry men because I dropped a golf ball within 2 yards of their carts. I apologized profusely and later saw them again and we made peace; but I could have stood to wait. The side of town it was, I was wondering if I was gonna get shot. Still, I didn't get shot, and they were 100% right to be upset. LOL

Yet, the sport wants to err on the side of pace of play so golf courses can cram as many people on as possible whether it has the capacity or not. Most people I play with or see play are not there to try and slow other people down. But there will always be some who are oblivious. Just have to deal with it. That has always been an issue in spots, and is never going away.

 

In fact, there were two 50+ guys that kept looking back at me at the tee box of #1 a few weeks ago whilst putzing down the fairway. Literally might as well have been putting, and they just kept going at it whilst I waited giving each other instructions and then BOTH duffing their shots. They did that at least two times. Didn't waive me onward, didn't seem to care. So I hopped back on the cart and sped over to start at #10. I figured they were getting into the sport, but I honestly don't think they were trying to be jerks. They just were what they were.

 

That stuff isn't limited to an age range.  It also isn't limited to 2023. In 1998ish we waited (all walking) on a par 3 tee queue commonly for 4 groups ahead of us. There were always a group of drunkards at some point f****** around on the green. I was 17 at the time and learned etiquette from my dad. It sure was annoying, but it was the way that it was. We wouldn't have even recalled it the next week. Today, we have these types of internet communities to amplify our gripes so that we remember it a whole lot longer.

Part of the angst is psychological purely on the basis of a small sample. This year alone on busy Sundays, I've rarely had a seriously BAD wait. Those aforementioned guys on #1 were the only two people I felt were pushing it.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mikey_HACKilroy

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Holy s***, I said way too much..... 😄 Sorry about that....

[nitram]

It's an honest reflection of today's society, as a whole . . .

[deadsolid...shank]

1 hour ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

Holy s***, I said way too much..... 😄 Sorry about that....

no need to apologize. As an old guy, I agree with a lot of what you said. We are a grumpy lot!

 

I haven’t really had bad experiences with the kids either (although I don’t play behind them), but they’re always very polite when they come in the shop. But I also know their coaches keep a prettt tight rein on them and them and do stress the etiquette part. I don’t how much they talk about pace. 

The ones I’m speaking of are older. In our area, it’s the oil and gas guys. It’s another generalization, but many of them are new to the game. And don’t express interest in getting better or learning, but rather in who can drink the most beer and be the most obnoxious. 
 

signed. Grumpy old fart!😀

Edited September 27, 2023 by deadsolid...shank

[Carl Spackler3]

Several thoughts, It’s a genuine reflection of society young and old. The young don’t care ( not being taught) and the old often ( no longer ) care. Especially courses with large groups of seniors where the loss of etiquette is hidden or protected in several foursomes.

 

simply rectified. Pay Marshall’s to enforce rules and pace. Stop giving old guys free golf in exchange to pretend to be Marshall, it’s often their buddies at fault. Pro shops could not care less it’s long as sheet if full everyday. The second you tee off they could care less.  Pay to protect the course and the integrity of the game. Throw off drunks, stop the music, physically move groups back into position when they fall behind.   An players who damage property.
 

sadly Private clubs can be great but all will have a large group that are above the rules. Where all the selfish behavior is exacerbated by paying more money. 

[grm24]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:58 PM, RoyalMustang said:

We've all seen it recently. Slow play-refusal to pick up even as you hold other groups up behind you. Grinding over a 20-foot putt for 50 seconds then hitting it 12 feet past the hole and 5 feet wide as you try to save your triple bogey. Driving carts up onto the green. Not repairing ball marks. Being a drunk jerk and negatively affecting others around you. Yesterday these 2 kids playing with me started talking right at the top of my backswing-probably the worst shot I hit all day was the result.  

 

A friend says it's due to Topgolf introducing people to the sport, rather than when golfers introduced newbies. When golfers showed others the ropes, the first topic was probably etiquette, as it affects others. When I was a kid, that was what my grandma taught me. She knew nothing about a swing but emphasized "don't walk in someone's line, don't talk when someone is swinging, don't walk behind someone getting read to hit, be respectful at all times".  

 

How do we get there? Should courses start hosting etiquette primers before rounds? Ban offenders who get complaints? Some people may not know the rules; others are entitled jerks. Obviously it's a societal issue as fewer people abide by societal norms and then act however they want, but there has to be a way to get control of this problem, aside from joining a private club. 

Poor golf etiquette has been around long before TopGolf was ever a thought. Poor etiquette in golf is as old as the game itself. Same as slow play. It's always existed.

Edited September 27, 2023 by grm24

[xabia]

I just don’t understand why bad golfers take so incredibly long to be bad

 

And generally yea people just often aren’t respectful of their surroundings and think of no one but themselves

[Nickb333]

46 minutes ago, xabia said:

I just don’t understand why bad golfers take so incredibly long to be bad

 

And generally yea people just often aren’t respectful of their surroundings and think of no one but themselves

LOL. I remember and old quote but have no idea who said it. “It takes just as long to miss it”!  
 

or something like that…

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, grm24 said:

Poor golf etiquette has been around long before TopGolf was ever a thought. Poor etiquette in golf is as old as the game itself. Same as slow play. It's always existed.

We all know examples of the issues.  I think the original post question was "Can we fix this?"  The next obvious question would be "How do we fix this?"

 

[ArtMBgolf]

In the old days, most to nearly all new golfers learned golf etiquette from 
their parents or as a caddie.   
 
Their are probably more JR programs now, but maybe they only teach the swing. 
 
I think over the years, each younger generation is being taught less about 
etiquette, manors, respect, etc.   That has led to where golf and crime is today. 
Maybe also many kids being raised a lot by daycare instead of parents.   
  
First tee helps, but a lot of people are learning golf on their own or from friends 
who don't know etiquette.   
 
A private course might be able to enforce etiquette as a requirement to join. 
 
Public golf can't do much, unless someone comes up with a Golf License, that is 
required at certain courses, certain days, etc.   Doubtful that will ever happen, 
since it hasn't.              

[kiwigolf72]

A while back I was living in Australia and wanted to join a private club, along with an interview,I had to play 9 holes with the club captain to make sure I knew the rules and had no behaviour issues, I managed to pass but didn't join. I had been playing representative golf in New Zealand prior and thought the process was a bit much.

 

[North Butte]

No, there's nothing you can do about it.