Has it finally gotten to the point where new drivers really aren't better than the prior model?

[The Ultimate Hack]

I'm like everyone else on here and love to tinker. Love the idea of new clubs and what those new clubs can bring.

 

I've like the paradym driver. The stealth 2 plus is an upgrade over the original stealth. Ping is whatever. I'll admit Titleist is making good progress in the driver and fairway wood market. 

 

But nothing has been able to top my ltdx from last year. You're starting to see it more with pro players as well. Brooks with sim 2. Collin with the OG sim. Hell, you see some even older drivers in players bags.

 

Has it now gotten to the point where this manufactures have hit a wall and it's impossible to make their driver/fairway wood better?

[Putter Addict]

It has been this way for years now. There are limits on what is allowed on equipment. Any progress is normally incremental.

 

Also, people have a fallacy of newer is better or one brand is better than another. Everyone has a different swing and therefore different equipment needs. I still play a Cobra Fly Z and nothing has kicked it out of my bag in almost 10 years. I have tried other brands, newer Cobra drivers, etc... but that particular driver just works best for me for some reason. 

[drza3]

Played around with g430 max, tsr2 and gave a few months to Aerojet LS. I’m back to LTDx the past month and driving it better than ever. It’s the best combo of forgiveness and distance for me 

[Pepperturbo]

IMO, No.  Designers don't know what they don't know.  Equipment technology never improves every year, but cosmetics improvements are every year, making it appear as if they have something new.  Example: Vokey introduced SM6, it was great, SM7 better, and SM8 not so much, but SM9 is maybe Vokey's best to date, same is true with Drivers.  OEM's only hit a wall if they hit the end of their budget, and got NADA.  The other influence is the OEMs marketing charter.  Titleist is different from consumer marketers, TM & Callaway.

 

For the most part, I have been a Titleist guy since 2003.  Titleist TSR series woods, by many counts, is the best they have made, and I agree.  It has also been said TSR is the most used on the PGA in a number of events.  The same goes for the T-series of irons.  

[jholz]

What is this, 2009?

Edited October 9, 2023 by jholz

[mattman]

I talked myself into a TSR2 because the shaping was improved compared to previous Titleist "2" heads. Lol. and I'm not unhappy I did that, but yeah I had a SIM Max at the time that produced just as good of numbers. Drivers stopped improving/were maxed out to the limits of the rules around 2017 from memory. You'll find in pro's bags drivers as old as Callaway Epic, but anything older than that you might be leaving a couple yards on the table.

Edited October 9, 2023 by mattman

[karstens_ghost]

Dispersion and spin control are getting better. The CoR isn't changing, so ya, there's only so much that can be picked up on distance. But those longer drives are getting better on average. Shafts are SO much better! The combinations fitters have are really dialled in to individuals, so "better" may not be what you're outwardly seeing… but if it's two yards closer to target each time, that's a big deal.

[mvhoffman]

I think within the next 2 years we will hit the max.  There is going to be a point where the materials are maxed out, the weights are maxed out, more "autoflex" technology will be adapted to the DTC brand options for more of a mass shafting.  For the most part they are all there now and it is just a preference of looks at this point.  There are some brands that move their weights mm's away from other brands and that is differences that are observed.  

 

I think that we are there and it will be happening soon to where we only see differences for custom stuff.

[ranesy]

Comparing our experiences and preferences with professional golf players is comical. They play for a living, so their stakes for failure are significantly higher. In cases, where the players have chosen to return to their previous generation club models is likely either due to their personal confidence in them based on experience hitting the type of shots they want to hit.

 

I was a prolific switcher of drivers, always searching for the next best thing...chasing a few more yards each year. I have stayed with the TSi3 since the last few years and on the average, it has served my needs well. Any poor 'driving' rounds are simply a result of my poor swings during those rounds.

 

It is however a lot of fun chasing new driver models each year, so I can certainly appreciate the excitement in trying something new 🙂

[RoyalMustang]

Incremental progress: most players can't measure the effectiveness on the course from one generation to another. The evolution may be there, but outside of a lab, no player, even likely a pro, can effectively quantify an additional 1.5 yards of driving distance. 

 

The "ah-hah" moment comes from a clubhead and shaft that fits you perfectly and narrows your misses or improves your distance. That's the club meeting your needs, not the club being better than the prior generation. 

[RoyalMustang]

27 minutes ago, ranesy said:

Comparing our experiences and preferences with professional golf players is comical. They play for a living, so their stakes for failure are significantly higher. In cases, where the players have chosen to return to their previous generation club models is likely either due to their personal confidence in them based on experience hitting the type of shots they want to hit.

 

I was a prolific switcher of drivers, always searching for the next best thing...chasing a few more yards each year. I have stayed with the TSi3 since the last few years and on the average, it has served my needs well. Any poor 'driving' rounds are simply a result of my poor swings during those rounds.

 

It is however a lot of fun chasing new driver models each year, so I can certainly appreciate the excitement in trying something new 🙂

 

I'm in the same boat with the TSi3. I did a fitting to check my swing and test new drivers. The fitter said "play the TSi3 till the face breaks unless you have money you need to light on fire". It wasn't any better than the others we tried and he had no interest in selling me something I didn't need. Respect-how often do you see that?!!!

[R5Two]

Yes, thay are basically just different. Variety is the spice of life though! I am in a srixon zx5 ls and the only thing I liked better in my life was my Sim2 Tour head I had at the end of last year. It's awesome to have so much good gear. 

 

I also have no idea why people onnthis forum go into a topic to rate it one star. If you don't like what you see move on. I'll rate it 5 to offset.  

[Valtiel]

This is always a loaded question with multiple grey answers. Objectively there are in fact only incremental improvements to be made within the regulations governing wood construction, but what constitutes an "improvement" can be subjective as well. There are lots of potential tweaks/customizations/options in the subjective realm that can "improve" a driver for a specific individual without having to bend or break rules. I'm sure plenty of people had these same feelings back in 09' as @jholz joked about, and since then we've obviously gotten the proliferation of adjustable hosels, moveable weights, and further optimizations *within* the rules to increase distance, especially after Trackman came on to the scene and helped refine *how* we optimize drivers. Like @Pepperturbo said, we don't know what we don't know yet from a design/engineering standpoint, and while the inevitable R&D gains will be objectively incremental, the subjective gains for the individual have a higher ceiling and will continue to drive driver sales for the foreseeable future. 

One of the funnier elephants in the room is overall driver head design and the fact that we've all collectively decided as golfers that we want drivers shaped a certain way, and that shape is objectively NOT the best for performance. A nice rounded sort of pear-ish shape presents all sorts of design issues with regards to where weight is distributed, and the advancements in lighter materials (carbon fibers mainly) have been helping push that forward. To *truly* see something more than incremental changes would require a drastic shift in driver shaping that most people would probably hate, hah. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Valtiel

[mjo23]

3 hours ago, The Ultimate Hack said:

I'm like everyone else on here and love to tinker. Love the idea of new clubs and what those new clubs can bring.

 

I've like the paradym driver. The stealth 2 plus is an upgrade over the original stealth. Ping is whatever. I'll admit Titleist is making good progress in the driver and fairway wood market. 

 

But nothing has been able to top my ltdx from last year. You're starting to see it more with pro players as well. Brooks with sim 2. Collin with the OG sim. Hell, you see some even older drivers in players bags.

 

Has it now gotten to the point where this manufactures have hit a wall and it's impossible to make their driver/fairway wood better?

Impossible? No. Difficult? Yes.

 

It's not like they've hit a complete wall where they can't find ways to incrementally improve, but new drivers from generation to generation are more often "different" than they are "better". Take Titleist for example, the TSi lineup (previous gen) and the TSR lineup (current gen) are rather different in terms of performance and design - one isn't "better" than the other. The TSR2 is gonna spin a bit less than the TSi2 - so it's simply a tradeoff, one might work better for certain players and their needs. Regarding TaylorMade, their releases feel so frequent that it's difficult to keep track - but there seems to always be talk (idk if it's true or not) about QC control issues on their first gen drivers of a new release (Sim1/Stealth1) versus their second gen (Sim2/Stealth2). QC aside, idk if there's any major performance difference between a Stealth1/Stealth2, or a Sim1/Sim2, but maybe someone can speak more on that. Regarding Callaway, besides some added adjustability, I'm not certain if much has dramatically improved in the past few releases. For Ping, the G425 and the new G430 seem nearly identical. So sometimes, like with Ping,  it's an incremental "improvement" on an existing, proven, design (whether it's an actual measurable improvement is debatable), and other times, like with the Titleist TSI2/TSR2 example, it's a different design all together where it comes down to personal preference/needs.

 

OEM's do significantly change things up once in a while, and sometimes it ends up being a fail and sometimes it ends up being a noticeable upgrade. Cobra lineups seems to vary most, at least aesthetically, from release to release - although I hear the Aerojet and Ltdx are very similar in performance.

 

But the biggest improvement I've noticed with driver's in the past few years or so is that "made-for" shafts are becoming less common, so now you can get quality wood shafts from Project X, Mitsubishi Chemical, etc. at no extra expense from many OEM's. Ping seems to have their own proprietary stock shafts and they're high quality, in addition to a couple free after market options. TaylorMade seems to be lacking in this department, at least in terms of stock offerings, as many of their stock shafts are still "made-for"; but I'm sure they still have quality shaft offerings for no-upcharge when ordering custom. Obviously gonna have to dish out a lot of extra $$$ for ultra premium shafts like Fuji Velocore, Graphite Design, etc.. but having spent a ton of money on these ultra expensive shafts myself - in hindsight - I don't think the juice was worth the squeeze over free offerings like HZRDUS Gen4, HZRDUS Smokes, Tensai's, etc.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by mjo23

[Chunkitgood]

Welcome to 2005…not 2009.

 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

It is really hard for me to quantify with limited samples, but I think where the most gains have been made is in customization. When I bought the Speedline F11 (pictured) it was basically WYSIWYG. Sure, I could get it reshafted but adjusting would be lead tape only or some other means.

Subsequently, a golfer can customize the weight very easily today to get the right fit while also experimenting with other options along the way to improving consistency. I feel like I've been able to improve my process and consistency much better with the more modern PXG 311 driver. In fact, I feel like I'm reaching a point with the driver where I'm more confident than ever before.

 

I just never would have been able to customize the F11 this way.

Obviously, there are factors I didn't directly mention, but the above at least covers what I like best. Do I think it can get much better for me?

Not really; because frankly I'll only be buying a new driver when this one wears out. In fact, I might even give it a nice paint coat to refresh it before that. 😄

[Phabs]

My 6 year old M3 is about 20 behind my Aerojet head.   Whether that's shaft / head tech whatever -  it makes a difference. 

 

I can stick the same shaft in my M3 and it doesn't have near the height or the flat trajectory as the Aerojet.  

 

I played a LTDX LS last year and it's way closer to the Aerojet than to the M3 obviously in terms of flight / distance.  The Aerojet is still a better head than the LTDX LS for my personal swing. 

[TwistedSister]

I have been thru at least TEN driver heads/shafts or combos that aren't any better than my SLDR 430!

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

IMO, No.  Designers don't know what they don't know.  Equipment technology never improves every year, but cosmetics improvements are every year, making it appear as if they have something new.  Example: Vokey introduced SM6, it was great, SM7 better, and SM8 not so much, but SM9 is maybe Vokey's best to date, same is true with Drivers.  OEM's only hit a wall if they hit the end of their budget, and got NADA.  The other influence is the OEMs marketing charter.  Titleist is different from consumer marketers, TM & Callaway.

 

For the most part, I have been a Titleist guy since 2003.  Titleist TSR series woods, by many counts, is the best they have made, and I agree.  It has also been said TSR is the most used on the PGA in a number of events.  The same goes for the T-series of irons.  

I might regret asking…but how is Titleist different from “consumer marketers” TM and Callaway?   And what is Titleist if not a consumer marketer?

[NoTalentLefty]

Not much improvement anymore with my 85 mph swing but driver shafts have been improving at a higher rate.

[ldchristopher]

This has been the case for a while. Higher and lower spin models and moveable weights changed things a little bit as did more shaft options, but ultimately there are limits to what a driver can do while conforming to USGA regulations. I doubt I’ll find anything that knocks my ST190G and I won’t lie, it’s nice knowing I’ve got a driver for the season. 

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

1 minute ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Not much improvement anymore with my 85 mph swing but driver shafts have been improving at a higher rate.

 

+1000^

That is an excellent point. I remember when Graphite came out and still have one of the plain old black graphite shafts of which I have no idea of design. The one in that old driver seemed nice but it broke easily......

[woods991]

Totally agree they need to all go to a minimum of 2 yr cycle maybe 3 yr to create hype.  The increase in price no longer creates the appeal or desire to buy the latest and so called greatest.  Heck even the pros play older models now.  And when I say older I am referring to 2021 lol.  
 

the shaft game now is evolving, shaft companies are in line for big profits as long as they keep pricing fair and reasonable. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by woods991

[getitdaily]

I personally find that they are improving. 

[Shilgy]

58 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

I personally find that they are improving. 

From a forgiveness across the face….staying relatively straight and not losing as much distance …I would agree.  But really not longer…at all.

[Pepperturbo]

Since I took up golf, 30+yrs back, the best drivers that got my attention were 905T, 905S, SLDR TP 9.5, and the current TSR2 10'.  But none of those Driver heads made the player.  Quality Graphite shafts are the greatest explanation as to why I am still in the game.

[ShortGolfer]

I think I got lucky with the fitted Stealth driver I bought last year.  I've learned to hit draws, fades, and slices that land in the fairway to compensate for my lack of swing speed.  Senior golf. 😉

I heard the original Stealth is better than the new one for working the ball.

 

I really helped my game to get fitted for driver.  The fitter found a shaft that worked well with my swing.  I hit irons well but not driver.

Edited October 10, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[Bad9]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

I might regret asking…but how is Titleist different from “consumer marketers” TM and Callaway?   And what is Titleist if not a consumer marketer?

It isn’t different and it’s a consumer marketer.

[getitdaily]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

From a forgiveness across the face….staying relatively straight and not losing as much distance …I would agree.  But really not longer…at all.

We know they're not faster on the top end. But every incremental release is consistently faster away from.center. Spin consistency is getting tighter. 

 

I am as equally impressed with stealth2+ over stealth+ as I was stealth+ over sim. The off center stuff and spin mgmt when the face is a bit more open is a big leap forward.

[Louis_Posture]

7 hours ago, The Ultimate Hack said:

 

 

Has it now gotten to the point where this manufactures have hit a wall and it's impossible to make their driver/fairway wood better?

I believe that point was attained 20 years ago.