Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[CallawayLefty]

He's being sarcastic. Very sarcastic

 

I thought my Anchorman quote would be a dead giveaway. Guess not?

 

Well, that escalated quickly. I killed a 4 handicapper with a Trident.

 

I saw that!

[deadsolid...shank]

Deadsolid -

GeekGolfer threw 270 carry out there as one of his stipulations for what he would need in a player to bet on them, bluedot immediately took exception with the idea that anyone who carries it that far could be a 4, and it quickly became an tangential theme of the thread. WRX *shrug*

 

Thank you sir.

[DavePelz4]

Simple question: If I shoot a 74 and an LPGA player shoots a 75, did I beat the LPGA player or not? Yes or no only please. Thanks.

 

If you played Ksigs and she played ProV's, she never had a chance.

[CallawayLefty]

Deadsolid -

GeekGolfer threw 270 carry out there as one of his stipulations for what he would need in a player to bet on them, bluedot immediately took exception with the idea that anyone who carries it that far could be a 4, and it quickly became an tangential theme of the thread. WRX *shrug*

 

And to think that was only like 18 pages ago now.

[TheGeekGolfer]

Ah there is a linear correlation between driving distance and ability.

 

Here's a trackman item on it

http://blog.trackman...e-male-amateur/

 

The R&A also did a study on distance and handicap and found the same.

 

And best of all is the MySpyGolf test of golfers of handicaps on estimating their carry distance for pw, 7i, 5i, driver - bottom line was they were 3 yards over their pw, 7 yds on 7i, 18 yds on 5i, and a whooping 30 yds on their driver (estimated 246 carry and reality was 216). This was an average of all golfers in the test. The higher the cap the worse they estimated and everyone overestimated their driving carry.

 

https://www.mygolfsp...-reality-check/

 

Everybody knows 4 handicaps are the +5 handicaps of estimating. My guess is that if they say they carry it 270, then that's how far they carry it. 4 handicaps strike the ball like Moe Norman, they usually just aren't very good chippers and putters because of jobs and kids and such. If they had more time, who knows how far they'd go? I do know this - put a 4 handicap inside of 6,500 yards and he's definitely going to break par.

 

No. Most 4 caps never break par.

 

Maybe you haven't read the last 47 pages, but there's clearly a group of 4 handicaps that only shoot 4 over the course rating when playing from the absolute tips. They carry it over 270 yards, but have so-so iron games and short games, which keeps them at 4 handicaps. They never play anywhere other than the absolute tips though. But in the hypothetical posed in this thread, they move up to 6,500 yards (actually much less because LPGA courses, even though marked at 6,500 yards really only play like 5,500 yards). When they do that, their ability to carry it 270 basically guarantees that they shoot under par. I think the common play is that they either drive the green and two putt, or drive it near the green and kind of hack it up there and two putt for par. And we all know that people ranked in the bottom quartile of the LPGA rankings only average around par.

 

They've done studies you know. 60% of the time, the 4 handicap wins every time.

 

I don't need to read 47 pages when it comes to handicaps. I work at a 54 hole club with 900 members and most are posting to GHIN.

 

Move a 4 form the "tips" to 6500 and they'll need to shoot 3 under their normal scores just to maintain their 4 cap.

 

 

They carry it over 270 yards, but have so-so iron games and short games, which keeps them at 4 handicaps.

 

Ha ha. They move to 6500 and their so-so iron game and short game magically improves?

The point is you are NOT moving the 270-4 up, you are moving the LPGA player BACK.

[TheGeekGolfer]

 

 

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

[PowderedToastMan]

 

 

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

Geek, what you don't seem to understand is that long courses eat 4 handicaps alive. They make them curl up into the fetal position, wishing they were never born. There's a better chance a 4 handicap will break all his clubs and throw them in a sink hole than break 80 on a long course.

 

Where your argument is weak is, well, the entire thing. 4 handicaps are horrible golfers in the world of professional golf.

[TheGeekGolfer]

 

 

 

 

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

Geek, what you don't seem to understand is that long courses eat 4 handicaps alive. They make them curl up into the fetal position, wishing they were never born. There's a better chance a 4 handicap will break all his clubs and throw them in a sink hole than break 80 on a long course.

 

Where your argument is weak is, well, the entire thing. 4 handicaps are horrible golfers in the world of professional golf.

 

'Most' 4 hdcp, not all. We're not talking about the average 4 hdcp being able to beat the average LPGA player. I'll agree, the LPGA player would be better 'on average'.

 

What we are talking about is 'could' a 4 hdcp beat 'AN' LPGA player. That means ANY LPGA player.

 

 

[Mcgeeno]

Like i posted before, I'm a 4 handicap...and would get double fudge stuffed by every LPGA pro out there at any course from any yardage.

 

A scratch might :situationally: win against an LPGA pro if the yardage is right, the course is familiar and everything falls his way 2 out of 10 times.

[TheGeekGolfer]

Like i posted before, I'm a 4 handicap...and would get double fudge stuffed by every LPGA pro out there at any course from any yardage.

 

A scratch might :situationally: win against an LPGA pro if the yardage is right, the course is familiar and everything falls his way 2 out of 10 times.

Guess I won't bet on you then.

[Hot Rod 71]

If anyone thinks a 4 hcp has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an LPGA pro on a 6500 yard course, then you need to put down the crack pipe and check into rehab.

 

I don't care how long the 4 hcp hits the ball. That is irrelevant. He is still a 4 hcp. If you back them both up to 7000 she still wins. She will hit her long irons and hybrids far better than a 4 hcp, and she will get up-and-down far more than he will.

 

I was at Kingsmill last year following Azahara Munoz. She had a tiny girl in her group I'd never heard of (she was 5'1" tall at most). Aza out drove her on every hole by 20+ yards, but the girl ended up shooting the same score as Aza at -2 for the day. On hole the tine girl had 180 in and hit hybrid. Aza had 150 in and hit 6 or 7 iron. Aza missed the green, while tiny girl was within 20'. Most of the LPGA players are very good with the long irons and hybrids from what I've seen.

[Boricua Golf]

If anyone thinks a 4 hcp has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an LPGA pro on a 6500 yard course, then you need to put down the crack pipe and check into rehab.

 

I don't care how long the 4 hcp hits the ball. That is irrelevant. He is still a 4 hcp. If you back them both up to 7000 she still wins. She will hit her long irons and hybrids far better than a 4 hcp, and she will get up-and-down far more than he will.

 

I was at Kingsmill last year following Azahara Munoz. She had a tiny girl in her group I'd never heard of (she was 5'1" tall at most). Aza out drove her on every hole by 20+ yards, but the girl ended up shooting the same score as Aza at -2 for the day. On hole the tine girl had 180 in and hit hybrid. Aza had 150 in and hit 6 or 7 iron. Aza missed the green, while tiny girl was within 20'. Most of the LPGA players are very good with the long irons and hybrids from what I've seen.

 

Hey, HR how is everything???, I agree, I have played with the LPGA Pros I've caddied for and haven't beat any of them (all at Ko'Olina GC in Hawaii for the Lotte Championship), in my case the difference was their short game and putting, I am ok, but they are just that much better, I have a rematch scheduled with Paula Reto at Kingsmill this coming May...

[bluedot]

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

 

You need to get in touch with the USGA with this information immediately. You have knowledge of how course ratings should be done that they need to know about. They have been mistakenly rating courses a completely different way than you have discovered; they actually think that the scratch golfer's score changes more or less proportionally in both directions! At my home course, for instance, the rating from the 7349 tips is 75.0, but the rating drops to 73.1, 70.1, and 67.4 (at 5648) as the tees become shorter. Clearly the USGA doesn't understand what they are doing, and courses all over the country must now be re-rated.

 

This changes everything!

[bluedot]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works. If a scratch/plus golfer plays a 4 straight up, to win the the 4 has to have his or her best day on the same day that the scratch/plus player has their worst. It might happen one time out of 20 rounds, but is likely to be much, much less frequent than that.

 

All the rest is just noise. Get rid of gender, get rid of driving distance, get rid of all of it. You still have a 4 index playing a scratch or better player straight up, and it'll be a butt-kicking day after day after day after day.

[iteachgolf]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works. If a scratch/plus golfer plays a 4 straight up, to win the the 4 has to have his or her best day on the same day that the scratch/plus player has their worst. It might happen one time out of 20 rounds, but is likely to be much, much less frequent than that.

 

All the rest is just noise. Get rid of gender, get rid of driving distance, get rid of all of it. You still have a 4 index playing a scratch or better player straight up, and it'll be a butt-kicking day after day after day after day.

On paper that's how it work but there are a ton of 4s on shorter easier courses who wouldn't be 4s on a tough 7400 yard golf course. They'd go from shooting high 70s to high 80s because they couldn't reach any par 4s. The difference in score would be 10+ but rating would only be 6-7 shots harder. The handicap system attempts to make up this difference but it has its flaws.

[dhc1]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works. If a scratch/plus golfer plays a 4 straight up, to win the the 4 has to have his or her best day on the same day that the scratch/plus player has their worst. It might happen one time out of 20 rounds, but is likely to be much, much less frequent than that.

 

All the rest is just noise. Get rid of gender, get rid of driving distance, get rid of all of it. You still have a 4 index playing a scratch or better player straight up, and it'll be a butt-kicking day after day after day after day.

 

Bluedot,

 

If the shorter hitting scratch cannot hit 250 yard drives and reach a 470 yard par 4 in two shots, they will not be scratch at longer yardages. These are the types of players susceptible to losing ground as the course rating assumes that they can hit this far.

 

You are correct for any scratch who hits at least this distance that there's no relative benefit for a longer driver vs someone who hits it exactly 250/470 when playing a longer course.

[caniac6]

I would think most, if not all, LPGA Tour pros are plus handicaps. Several years ago my cap was 2, and I played with a guy that was a plus. The difference between his game and mine was huge. I am a 4 now, and there is no way I could beat an LPGA Tour pro, and I am not ashamed to admit it.

[deadsolid...shank]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works. If a scratch/plus golfer plays a 4 straight up, to win the the 4 has to have his or her best day on the same day that the scratch/plus player has their worst. It might happen one time out of 20 rounds, but is likely to be much, much less frequent than that.

 

 

I don't think it's as infrequent as that. It doesn't have to be the absolute of the four's best day and the scratche's worst. We're only talking about a four shot difference. Assuming say a course rated at 72, It's hardly uncommon for the scratch to shoot a high 70 number while the four matches or betters that.

 

I think we've all played many rounds where someone with a cap four higher beats the lower guy straight up.

[nsxguy]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[bluedot]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

[TheGeekGolfer]

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

 

You need to get in touch with the USGA with this information immediately. You have knowledge of how course ratings should be done that they need to know about. They have been mistakenly rating courses a completely different way than you have discovered; they actually think that the scratch golfer's score changes more or less proportionally in both directions! At my home course, for instance, the rating from the 7349 tips is 75.0, but the rating drops to 73.1, 70.1, and 67.4 (at 5648) as the tees become shorter. Clearly the USGA doesn't understand what they are doing, and courses all over the country must now be re-rated.

 

This changes everything!

The USGA hdcp system is inherently flawed to favor the higher hdcp player in a match. This is even more apparent as you move up a tee. It is more likely the higher hdcp will have a day where they play 'better' than normal and made more pars or bogey. Those turn into net par, birdie, or even eagle.

 

For an extreme example, take a par 3 where the high hdcp makes a gross par and the lower hdcp makes a birdie. Well, if the high hdcp gets 2 strokes, they make a net hole in one and win the hole. The hdcp system just took a very unlikely, once in a lifetime event and turned it into a much more likely event.

 

 

[bluedot]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works. If a scratch/plus golfer plays a 4 straight up, to win the the 4 has to have his or her best day on the same day that the scratch/plus player has their worst. It might happen one time out of 20 rounds, but is likely to be much, much less frequent than that.

 

 

I don't think it's as infrequent as that. It doesn't have to be the absolute of the four's best day and the scratche's worst. We're only talking about a four shot difference. Assuming say a course rated at 72, It's hardly uncommon for the scratch to shoot a high 70 number while the four matches or betters that.

 

I think we've all played many rounds where someone with a cap four higher beats the lower guy straight up.

 

The gap between a scratch player and a 4 is bigger than the gap between a 10 and a 14. This is true not only as a mathematical percentage, but from what the USGA knows about the likely range of scores that players of varying handicaps shoot. On both levels, the gap between a scratch player and a 4 is bigger than the gap between a 16 and a 20.

[TheGeekGolfer]

 

 

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

 

If that was true than an LPGA pro would be playing on the PGA or at least the WEB.COM tour, since they are that good at any distance.

[bluedot]

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

 

You need to get in touch with the USGA with this information immediately. You have knowledge of how course ratings should be done that they need to know about. They have been mistakenly rating courses a completely different way than you have discovered; they actually think that the scratch golfer's score changes more or less proportionally in both directions! At my home course, for instance, the rating from the 7349 tips is 75.0, but the rating drops to 73.1, 70.1, and 67.4 (at 5648) as the tees become shorter. Clearly the USGA doesn't understand what they are doing, and courses all over the country must now be re-rated.

 

This changes everything!

The USGA hdcp system is inherently flawed to favor the higher hdcp player in a match. This is even more apparent as you move up a tee. It is more likely the higher hdcp will have a day where they play 'better' than normal and made more pars or bogey. Those turn into net par, birdie, or even eagle.

 

For an extreme example, take a par 3 where the high hdcp makes a gross par and the lower hdcp makes a birdie. Well, if the high hdcp gets 2 strokes, they make a net hole in one and win the hole. The hdcp system just took a very unlikely, once in a lifetime event and turned it into a much more likely event.

 

I'm sorry, but you are just 100% dead wrong here. The USGA system is actually slightly biased IN FAVOR of the LOWER handicap player; the 96% rule means that the higher index player gets MORE strokes deducted from his best 10 differentials than the lower index player does. 4% of a bigger number is a bigger number; just basic math. It isn't a big bias, but it favors the better player, period.

 

On top of that, if the higher handicap player moves up a tee, he subtracts the difference in the course ratings from his course handicap, so he's getting even fewer shots. If they both move up, then both course handicaps change by the same amount, and we're back where we started.

 

None of this matters to the discussion at hand, of course, since we're talking about gross stroke play between a scratch or plus player vs a 4 index. But fwiw, in the scenario you've outlined the high index player would have to be getting AT LEAST 19 shots to get 2 strokes on a hole, and that's a par 3 was the #1 index hole on the course. More likely, the higher index player would have to be getting at least 25 shots in order to get 2 shots on a par 3. I don't know if you've ever played golf with somebody that gets two strokes on ANY hole, much less a par 3, but they ain't beating a scratch golfer even with those strokes; without ESC, there's no telling how high their handicap would be!

[bluedot]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

 

If that was true than an LPGA pro would be playing on the PGA or at least the WEB.COM tour, since they are that good at any distance.

 

No, because the PGA Tour players are better and carry lower indexes. The best guesses are that the average PGA Tour player is around a +5 index. If an LPGA player is scratch, guess what? She'd still be scratch, but she wouldn't be on the PGA Tour. And I don't think there are any scratch golfers on the Web.com Tour, either, do you?

 

C'mon, man...

[nsxguy]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

 

If that was true than an LPGA pro would be playing on the PGA or at least the WEB.COM tour, since they are that good at any distance.

 

No, because the PGA Tour players are better and carry lower indexes. The best guesses are that the average PGA Tour player is around a +5 index. If an LPGA player is scratch, guess what? She'd still be scratch, but she wouldn't be on the PGA Tour. And I don't think there are any scratch golfers on the Web.com Tour, either, do you?

 

C'mon, man...

 

Since the title was "an LPGA Pro", "Scratch" LPGA Pro was used as a middle of the roader or even a lower level Pro so the 4 might compete. Earlier in this thread there were all sorts of numbers for the best lady pros being +3 to +5 and those were supposedly "men's" handicap ratings.

 

So why CAN'T/DON'T LPGA Pros play on the men's tour ? Simple, because they can't shoot the same SCORES (NOT handicap) from the distance the men play.

 

C'mon man

[glk]

You just don't get it. "Birdie" is a name for one less stroke than par, ok, and it isn't the only way to save a shot, so quit talking about it that way. If I move up, I can turn doubles into bogeys, and bogeys into pars. If I move back, I can turn pars into bogeys, and bogeys into doubles. It's a couple of shots either way, and the idea that a better player doesn't gain from moving up because they don't make a lot more birdies is silly math. A stroke is a stroke. That has nothing to do with handicaps; it has to do with what you shoot.

 

I don't think you understand math. It's not 'a couple of shots either way'! There is a hard cap of either a birdie or the rare eagle, you can't go lower than a 2, or the very rare 1 on a hole. However, if you take the short hitter and move them back on a long par 4, you can definitely lose MORE THAN one or two shots. There is NO UPPER CAP in stroke play.

 

You need to get in touch with the USGA with this information immediately. You have knowledge of how course ratings should be done that they need to know about. They have been mistakenly rating courses a completely different way than you have discovered; they actually think that the scratch golfer's score changes more or less proportionally in both directions! At my home course, for instance, the rating from the 7349 tips is 75.0, but the rating drops to 73.1, 70.1, and 67.4 (at 5648) as the tees become shorter. Clearly the USGA doesn't understand what they are doing, and courses all over the country must now be re-rated.

 

This changes everything!

The USGA hdcp system is inherently flawed to favor the higher hdcp player in a match. This is even more apparent as you move up a tee. It is more likely the higher hdcp will have a day where they play 'better' than normal and made more pars or bogey. Those turn into net par, birdie, or even eagle.

 

For an extreme example, take a par 3 where the high hdcp makes a gross par and the lower hdcp makes a birdie. Well, if the high hdcp gets 2 strokes, they make a net hole in one and win the hole. The hdcp system just took a very unlikely, once in a lifetime event and turned it into a much more likely event.

According to Frank Thomas and others (including the USGA itself) the system favors the lower handicap.

[Obee]

 

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

 

If that was true than an LPGA pro would be playing on the PGA or at least the WEB.COM tour, since they are that good at any distance.

 

Sigh....

[CallawayLefty]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works.

 

To be clear, the "event" being discussed is NOT a net score,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Never said it was, and that's not the point of what I wrote. The things that make a scratch or plus player that are true at ANY distance, and the things that make a 4 that are also true at ANY distance. In a straight up gross stroke play match, it doesn't matter what tees are being played; the better player is the better player.

 

If that was true than an LPGA pro would be playing on the PGA or at least the WEB.COM tour, since they are that good at any distance.

 

Sigh....

 

LPGA players = PGA or at least Web.com

4 handicaps > than LPGA players

Therefore, 4 handicaps >= PGA or web.com players

 

It's all starting to make sense.

[deadsolid...shank]

To be clear:

 

Move the scratch or plus player back as far as you want; he or she is still a scratch player. Move the 4 up as far as you want; he or she is still a 4. If you don't understand that, then you have zero idea how the handicap system actually works. If a scratch/plus golfer plays a 4 straight up, to win the the 4 has to have his or her best day on the same day that the scratch/plus player has their worst. It might happen one time out of 20 rounds, but is likely to be much, much less frequent than that.

 

 

I don't think it's as infrequent as that. It doesn't have to be the absolute of the four's best day and the scratche's worst. We're only talking about a four shot difference. Assuming say a course rated at 72, It's hardly uncommon for the scratch to shoot a high 70 number while the four matches or betters that.

 

I think we've all played many rounds where someone with a cap four higher beats the lower guy straight up.

 

The gap between a scratch player and a 4 is bigger than the gap between a 10 and a 14. This is true not only as a mathematical percentage, but from what the USGA knows about the likely range of scores that players of varying handicaps shoot. On both levels, the gap between a scratch player and a 4 is bigger than the gap between a 16 and a 20.

 

True. Although the difference is so small that's it's really not significant.

 

That being said, that doesn't have any bearing on the fact that it's still just a four stroke spread. Its not infrequent that the higher cap will best the lower.

 

I hate to use personal examples because that sets a guy up for all kinds of nasty comments, but I'm going to anyway. The best player at our club is a +2. He's legit with several high placings in state events. I've beaten him two out of the last three times we've played. Straight up. Now I don't expect that to,happen any time we play, but it just shows that it can......and does happen. And it's not all that infrequent.