Best Driver of 2019 | Full Article _HERE_ | Discussion Thread _HERE_

Kuchar in the bunker

CallyboyCallyboy Members Posts: 16 ✭✭

Sorry if this has already been discussed but what are the thoughts on this by Matt (appreciate this may just be chucking a grenade and watching for the reaction!)?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ladiestees1/status/1170049641079029761

«134

Comments

  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm sure it was a "Waste Area".

    Kuchar has become a target off the back of some things (deservedly so) and while this looks weird I don't see a problem with it. Don't look to Twitter for a fair and balanced reaction.

    Titleist 910D3 8.5°
    TaylorMade M3 15°
    Titleist CB (710) 3-PW
    Callaway Mack Daddy 4 Chrome 54° S Grind & 58° C Grind
    Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport 2
    Titleist Pro V 1x
  • nichhonichho Members Posts: 2,003 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I am in the definitely uncomfortable with that camp. His ball starts in a depression and by the time he has moved all of the loose impediments it is on a mound.
    I understand that professionals playing for large sums of money have different boundaries from me when it comes to applying your moral compass and so I find it frustrating rather than annoying.

    Phil with the sprinklers in the jungle, Tiger and the boulder, Schwartzel and the sprinkler head and multiple Kuchar infractions are only some of the instances where pro's have pushed the boundaries. Of course the problems lies partially with the pro's for seeking an unfair (in my opinion) advantage but mostly with those referees who succumb to the pressure.

    Finally, it just might be that someone with a greater understanding of the rules than me might prove that he did in fact illegally improve his lie.

    Callaway Rogue UST Recoil 
    Srixon Z H65 2h Myazaki Kaula
    Srixon Z H65 3h Myazaki Kaula
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW TTDG
    Japanese Tour Forged AW
    Taylormade EF Spin 56 KBS Wedge
    Vokey SM6 60 KBS Sinner
    Mizuno T105
  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish. PAMembers Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭

    It doesn't really pass the eyeball test, does it?

    If Kuch wants to get hyper-technical with the rules and remove very small rocks that are the size of individual grains of sand, then what prevents the rules committee from imposing a penalty on him if he "accidentally" removes actual grains of sand in the process and improves his lie?

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,882 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2019 10:59am #5

    Isn’t it just another glaring hole in the rules? He’s easily within the rules to move them. The Twitter twits responses about a DQ are hilarious. Have to remember. This is in a waste area. NOT in a hazard or whatever they changed the name to.

    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  4-PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  50  54 60 s400
    Spider X Tour Armlock.  42 inch with jumbo max 17 inch  grip.   


  • ray9898ray9898 Members Posts: 840 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First fail was in the title to this thread.....

  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Stewart Cink did the same in a playoff at Hilton Head one year. It’s fine.

  • MakersMarsh3MakersMarsh3 Members Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    No issues here, bringing risk on himself by doing it, happens all the time

    lead tape & Taylormade TP5X's
  • MaxBuckMaxBuck Members Posts: 432 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2019 12:45pm #9

    I would interpret what Kuchar did as violating Rule 1 and Rule 8.1. Rule 1 states in part, "You should normally play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies." Kuchar violated both the spirit and the letter of that rule IMO.

    I've lately gone from being a big Kuchar fan (love his demeanor on the course) to not much of a fan at all (his niggardliness and this sort of thing).

  • mrbhmrbh Members Posts: 32 ✭✭

    Agree Cink did the same thing at HH that year and that was also highly problematic for the same reason - in both cases a really poor lie got turned into a perfect one. Not saying either one was strictly against the letter of the rules necessarily, but the look and smell is awful IMO.

    TM M6 10.5*, MRC Kuro Kage Silver TiNi 60 X - Cobra F8 3-4W, Aldila 2KXV Blue 75 S - Ping G Crossover 18*, Ping Alta 75S / Adams TL Ti 5W 18*, Matrix Ozik Code 7 S - TM RAC CGB 3i / TM stock S - 4-G Cobra Forged One, KBS Tour FLT 120 S - Cleveland CBX 54*, KBS Tour FLT 120 S - Cobra King 60*, KBS Tour C-Taper Lite 110 S - TM TP Mullen 2 w/ UST Frequency Filtered shaft & P2 Reflex Tour grip - Ball: Vice Pro+ / Srixon Z Star XV
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Man that just looks weird. I can't help the pros for trying I guess, but maybe I think the ROs need to tighten things up a little. Some local RO's thought that the ROs were pretty forthright in allowing Schwartzel relief from the sprinkler. Bouldergate looks weird to us because we don't have a gallery to move a big **** rock, but we can get our foursome to help move a branch.

    The letter of the law is probably protecting him, but if I was playing with a buddy who was doing that I'd ask him what the h3ll he was doing, and go from there. When do stones become sand anyways?

    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,959 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    When it's chunkier sand like that the rule becomes harder to enforce

    TM M1 2017 10.5 Aldila NV 2KXV Green 60x
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX (yellow)
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • bogeykbogeyk Members Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m wondering if the caddie incident and its backlash has given television coverage a green light to show his interactions with rules officials. The awe shucks, easygoing facade has sort of been lifted and the media is now willing to show the embedded ball situation uninterrupted and now this waste area ruling. The gloves seem to have come off when covering Kuchar.

  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 456 ✭✭✭✭

    I hated it when Cink did it in HH years ago, and I still hate it now.

    I "guess" you can't blame the players for taking advantage of the rules. So you could conclude that the rules need some sort of tweaking if you don't like seeing this.

    Or..... players could be given a mirror to look in before they try to stretch rules to a ridiculous length. This is not within the spirit of the game and is not what the rules intended to allow or disallow. It is 100% improving the lie and is 100% NOT playing the ball as it lies.

    Of course there's a reasonable chance that if you gave Kuch a mirror to look into, there'd be nothing there to see....

  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MaxBuck said:
    I would interpret what Kuchar did as violating Rule 1 and Rule 8.1. Rule 1 states in part, "You should normally play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies." Kuchar violated both the spirit and the letter of that rule IMO.

    I've lately gone from being a big Kuchar fan (love his demeanor on the course) to not much of a fan at all (his niggardliness and this sort of thing).

    The problem is that the letter of the law seems to give an exception to rule 8 for the removal of loose impediments. How far that actually goes I can't say really.

    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • FadeFade Members Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    From the Definitions:
    Special cases:
    Sand and Loose Soil are not loose impediments.

    Looks to me like he moved quite a bit of sand out of the way.

  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,402 ClubWRX

    @MaxBuck said:
    I would interpret what Kuchar did as violating Rule 1 and Rule 8.1. Rule 1 states in part, "You should normally play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies." Kuchar violated both the spirit and the letter of that rule IMO.

    I've lately gone from being a big Kuchar fan (love his demeanor on the course) to not much of a fan at all (his niggardliness and this sort of thing).

    That's not even sensible.

  • justasgoodjustasgood Without Tempo, you are just a hacker. Members Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2019 3:00pm #18

    If I or any of us did that in a local member guest or other competition and argued, correctly, that it is within the rules, I am pretty sure we would be asked to leave and we would not be welcomed back.

    Spirit of the rule, integrity and just plain appearance of wrong doing should prevent this.....especially at that level.

  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Open Championship! IowaClubWRX Posts: 18,402 ClubWRX

    Probably hard to pick up those tiny loose impediments without getting a fair bit of sand as well. Probably doesn't have a tweezer. I guess it doesn't look the best, but then that depends on the "look" you think it should have and your interpretation of the rule.

  • iBanestoiBanesto Niclas Fasth Members Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 8, 2019 12:44am #20

    @golfandfishing said:
    Stewart Cink did the same in a playoff at Hilton Head one year. It’s fine.

    That was definitely a waste area from memory?

    Was Kuchar in a waste area?

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    "Waste area" isn't a thing. The "things" that are, are in the Definitions.

    The five defined areas that make up the course:
    1) The general area,
    2) The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
    3) All penalty areas,
    4) All bunkers, and
    5) The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=5

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • tideridertiderider Members Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    you're allowed to move sand, to a "degree", if moving impediments ...

    grey area and all that ...

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,882 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @sui generis said:
    "Waste area" isn't a thing. The "things" that are, are in the Definitions.

    The five defined areas that make up the course:
    1) The general area,
    2) The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
    3) All penalty areas,
    4) All bunkers, and
    5) The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=5

    So he’s in a general area ?

    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  4-PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  50  54 60 s400
    Spider X Tour Armlock.  42 inch with jumbo max 17 inch  grip.   


  • philly2kukphilly2kuk Members Posts: 662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whether this latest episode is by the rules or not, after his run in with Sergio, the caddie payment issue and the fact he tried to claim his ball had plugged in the fairway at the memorial when it had bounced into somebody else’s pitch mark, he’s making himself an easy target for the press.

    If he had some sense he’d be trying his hardest to avoid scrutiny for a while. He missed the cut anyway, why not just leave some of the sand/impediments there and get on with it so you’re not being targeted again??

    Taylormade M3 with Evenflow Blue
    Ping G 17.5° with Tour 80
    Taylormade Rescue Dual 22°
    Ping G25 4-PW
    Ping Tour W 50°
    Vokey SM7 56°/14° and 60°/10°
    Scotty Cameron T22 Newport
    Titleist Pro V1x

    Remember, there's no pictures on a scorecard, only a number.
  • NokeNoke Members Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldTomMorris said:
    I'm sure it was a "Waste Area".

    Kuchar has become a target off the back of some things (deservedly so) and while this looks weird I don't see a problem with it. Don't look to Twitter for a fair and balanced reaction.

    Don't look to ANY media source for a 'fair and balanced' reaction. Balance yourself.

  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers Posts: 3,056 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @sui generis said:
    "Waste area" isn't a thing. The "things" that are, are in the Definitions.

    The five defined areas that make up the course:
    1) The general area,
    2) The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
    3) All penalty areas,
    4) All bunkers, and
    5) The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=5

    OK but I was watching the coverage and there was a sign sticking in the area that Kuchar was in and printed on that sign said "Waste Area". I assumed it was to alert players to the fact it wasn't a bunker. Most golfers would understand what is meant by "Waste Area" even if its not an explicitly defined term it is commonly used in golf vernacular.

    Titleist 910D3 8.5°
    TaylorMade M3 15°
    Titleist CB (710) 3-PW
    Callaway Mack Daddy 4 Chrome 54° S Grind & 58° C Grind
    Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport 2
    Titleist Pro V 1x
  • sergizmosergizmo Members Posts: 2,760 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the announcers on this. Clearly improving his lie and not in the intent of any rule.

  • the bishopthe bishop Members Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If what he did falls within the letter of the rules, it shouldn't.

    W/S Cortex 10.5* - Atmos Red - S
    W/S C300 15* Fuji Speeder Pro - S
    W/S C300 20*/23* Fuji Speeder Pro - S
    W/S FG Tour Forged 5-P DGS300
    W/S PMP 52/56/60  KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    W/S Infinite Windy City
  • Titleist99Titleist99 Members Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭

    Let me tell you about the rules of golf.....they are there to help you....Period. The top players (except Dustin Johnson) knows how to exploit the rules and they do it all the time especially Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els just to name a few. They figure that Golf gives you so many bad breaks that they deserve a couple of good breaks....Remember if an official is right there and he says that what you are doing is okay then it is okay by the rules, that why they call for rulings when ever something is in question......end of story.

  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Titleist99 said:
    Let me tell you about the rules of golf.....they are there to help you....Period. The top players (except Dustin Johnson) knows how to exploit the rules and they do it all the time especially Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els just to name a few. They figure that Golf gives you so many bad breaks that they deserve a couple of good breaks....Remember if an official is right there and he says that what you are doing is okay then it is okay by the rules, that why they call for rulings when ever something is in question......end of story.

    Tiger has a losing record against the rule book. Boulder gate might have been the only time he came out on top.

    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • Titleist99Titleist99 Members Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 8, 2019 10:54pm #31

    @Vindog said:

    @Titleist99 said:
    Let me tell you about the rules of golf.....they are there to help you....Period. The top players (except Dustin Johnson) knows how to exploit the rules and they do it all the time especially Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els just to name a few. They figure that Golf gives you so many bad breaks that they deserve a couple of good breaks....Remember if an official is right there and he says that what you are doing is okay then it is okay by the rules, that why they call for rulings when ever something is in question......end of story.

    Tiger has a losing record against the rule book. Boulder gate might have been the only time he came out on top.

    WOW! …..Such a general statement. While I've seen Tiger Woods lobby on many occasions for favorable rulings, I have no Idea how many was for or against his request.....maybe you can give me the final count seeing as how your sure that the moving of that small movable object was the only one that went in his favor.....for example was he one for twenty? Is there a tour stat for this? Can't wait for the web site.....LOL!

    t

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file