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Kuchar in the bunker

 Callyboy ·  
CallyboyCallyboy Members  16WRX Points: 55Posts: 16 Bunkers
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Sorry if this has already been discussed but what are the thoughts on this by Matt (appreciate this may just be chucking a grenade and watching for the reaction!)?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ladiestees1/status/1170049641079029761

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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers  3390WRX Points: 1,202Posts: 3,390 Titanium Tees
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    I'm sure it was a "Waste Area".

    Kuchar has become a target off the back of some things (deservedly so) and while this looks weird I don't see a problem with it. Don't look to Twitter for a fair and balanced reaction.

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  • nichhonichho Members  2063WRX Points: 283Posts: 2,063 Platinum Tees
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    I am in the definitely uncomfortable with that camp. His ball starts in a depression and by the time he has moved all of the loose impediments it is on a mound.
    I understand that professionals playing for large sums of money have different boundaries from me when it comes to applying your moral compass and so I find it frustrating rather than annoying.

    Phil with the sprinklers in the jungle, Tiger and the boulder, Schwartzel and the sprinkler head and multiple Kuchar infractions are only some of the instances where pro's have pushed the boundaries. Of course the problems lies partially with the pro's for seeking an unfair (in my opinion) advantage but mostly with those referees who succumb to the pressure.

    Finally, it just might be that someone with a greater understanding of the rules than me might prove that he did in fact illegally improve his lie.

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  • JohnnyCashForeverJohnnyCashForever The bearer of unconditional things PAMembers  483WRX Points: 421Posts: 483 Greens
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    It doesn't really pass the eyeball test, does it?

    If Kuch wants to get hyper-technical with the rules and remove very small rocks that are the size of individual grains of sand, then what prevents the rules committee from imposing a penalty on him if he "accidentally" removes actual grains of sand in the process and improves his lie?

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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 7, 2019 #5

    Isn’t it just another glaring hole in the rules? He’s easily within the rules to move them. The Twitter twits responses about a DQ are hilarious. Have to remember. This is in a waste area. NOT in a hazard or whatever they changed the name to.

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  • ray9898ray9898 Members  880WRX Points: 295Posts: 880 Golden Tee
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    First fail was in the title to this thread.....

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  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members  3860WRX Points: 1,385Handicap: 4Posts: 3,860 Titanium Tees
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    Stewart Cink did the same in a playoff at Hilton Head one year. It’s fine.

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  • MakersMarsh3MakersMarsh3 TX/CAMembers  1718WRX Points: 303Posts: 1,718 Platinum Tees
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    No issues here, bringing risk on himself by doing it, happens all the time

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  • MaxBuckMaxBuck Members  516WRX Points: 258Posts: 516 Golden Tee
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    I would interpret what Kuchar did as violating Rule 1 and Rule 8.1. Rule 1 states in part, "You should normally play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies." Kuchar violated both the spirit and the letter of that rule IMO.

    I've lately gone from being a big Kuchar fan (love his demeanor on the course) to not much of a fan at all (his niggardliness and this sort of thing).

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  • mrbhmrbh Members  32WRX Points: 66Posts: 32 Bunkers
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    Agree Cink did the same thing at HH that year and that was also highly problematic for the same reason - in both cases a really poor lie got turned into a perfect one. Not saying either one was strictly against the letter of the rules necessarily, but the look and smell is awful IMO.

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
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    Man that just looks weird. I can't help the pros for trying I guess, but maybe I think the ROs need to tighten things up a little. Some local RO's thought that the ROs were pretty forthright in allowing Schwartzel relief from the sprinkler. Bouldergate looks weird to us because we don't have a gallery to move a big **** rock, but we can get our foursome to help move a branch.

    The letter of the law is probably protecting him, but if I was playing with a buddy who was doing that I'd ask him what the h3ll he was doing, and go from there. When do stones become sand anyways?

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  • JD3JD3 Members  5074WRX Points: 410Posts: 5,074 Titanium Tees
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    When it's chunkier sand like that the rule becomes harder to enforce

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  • bogeykbogeyk Members  1009WRX Points: 124Posts: 1,009 Platinum Tees
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    I’m wondering if the caddie incident and its backlash has given television coverage a green light to show his interactions with rules officials. The awe shucks, easygoing facade has sort of been lifted and the media is now willing to show the embedded ball situation uninterrupted and now this waste area ruling. The gloves seem to have come off when covering Kuchar.

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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members  498WRX Points: 205Handicap: 14Posts: 498 Greens
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    I hated it when Cink did it in HH years ago, and I still hate it now.

    I "guess" you can't blame the players for taking advantage of the rules. So you could conclude that the rules need some sort of tweaking if you don't like seeing this.

    Or..... players could be given a mirror to look in before they try to stretch rules to a ridiculous length. This is not within the spirit of the game and is not what the rules intended to allow or disallow. It is 100% improving the lie and is 100% NOT playing the ball as it lies.

    Of course there's a reasonable chance that if you gave Kuch a mirror to look into, there'd be nothing there to see....

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @MaxBuck said:

    I would interpret what Kuchar did as violating Rule 1 and Rule 8.1. Rule 1 states in part, "You should normally play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies." Kuchar violated both the spirit and the letter of that rule IMO.

    I've lately gone from being a big Kuchar fan (love his demeanor on the course) to not much of a fan at all (his niggardliness and this sort of thing).

    The problem is that the letter of the law seems to give an exception to rule 8 for the removal of loose impediments. How far that actually goes I can't say really.

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    a couple of outdated hybrids
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    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • FadeFade Members  1385WRX Points: 270Posts: 1,385 Platinum Tees
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    From the Definitions:
    Special cases:
    Sand and Loose Soil are not loose impediments.

    Looks to me like he moved quite a bit of sand out of the way.

    Posted:
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  21665WRX Points: 5,667Posts: 21,665 ClubWRX
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    On -, @MaxBuck said:

    I would interpret what Kuchar did as violating Rule 1 and Rule 8.1. Rule 1 states in part, "You should normally play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies." Kuchar violated both the spirit and the letter of that rule IMO.

    I've lately gone from being a big Kuchar fan (love his demeanor on the course) to not much of a fan at all (his niggardliness and this sort of thing).

    That's not even sensible.

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  • justasgoodjustasgood Without Tempo, you are just a hacker. Members  3181WRX Points: 793Handicap: I.Q.Posts: 3,181 Titanium Tees
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    If I or any of us did that in a local member guest or other competition and argued, correctly, that it is within the rules, I am pretty sure we would be asked to leave and we would not be welcomed back.

    Spirit of the rule, integrity and just plain appearance of wrong doing should prevent this.....especially at that level.

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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  21665WRX Points: 5,667Posts: 21,665 ClubWRX
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    Probably hard to pick up those tiny loose impediments without getting a fair bit of sand as well. Probably doesn't have a tweezer. I guess it doesn't look the best, but then that depends on the "look" you think it should have and your interpretation of the rule.

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  • iBanestoiBanesto Niclas Fasth Members  4899WRX Points: 603Posts: 4,899 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 8, 2019 #20

    On -, @golfandfishing said:

    Stewart Cink did the same in a playoff at Hilton Head one year. It’s fine.

    That was definitely a waste area from memory?

    Was Kuchar in a waste area?

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  • sui generissui generis Members  4515WRX Points: 822Posts: 4,515 Titanium Tees
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    "Waste area" isn't a thing. The "things" that are, are in the Definitions.

    The five defined areas that make up the course:
    1) The general area,
    2) The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
    3) All penalty areas,
    4) All bunkers, and
    5) The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=5

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  • tideridertiderider Members  3118WRX Points: 2,141Handicap: 5ishPosts: 3,118 Titanium Tees
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    you're allowed to move sand, to a "degree", if moving impediments ...

    grey area and all that ...

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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @sui generis said:

    "Waste area" isn't a thing. The "things" that are, are in the Definitions.

    The five defined areas that make up the course:
    1) The general area,
    2) The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
    3) All penalty areas,
    4) All bunkers, and
    5) The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=5

    So he’s in a general area ?

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  • philly2kukphilly2kuk Members  717WRX Points: 114Posts: 717 Golden Tee
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    Whether this latest episode is by the rules or not, after his run in with Sergio, the caddie payment issue and the fact he tried to claim his ball had plugged in the fairway at the memorial when it had bounced into somebody else’s pitch mark, he’s making himself an easy target for the press.

    If he had some sense he’d be trying his hardest to avoid scrutiny for a while. He missed the cut anyway, why not just leave some of the sand/impediments there and get on with it so you’re not being targeted again??

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  • NokeNoke Unregistered  2239WRX Points: 299Posts: 2,239 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @OldTomMorris said:

    I'm sure it was a "Waste Area".

    Kuchar has become a target off the back of some things (deservedly so) and while this looks weird I don't see a problem with it. Don't look to Twitter for a fair and balanced reaction.

    Don't look to ANY media source for a 'fair and balanced' reaction. Balance yourself.

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  • OldTomMorrisOldTomMorris Edinburgh, ScotlandMembers  3390WRX Points: 1,202Posts: 3,390 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @sui generis said:

    "Waste area" isn't a thing. The "things" that are, are in the Definitions.

    The five defined areas that make up the course:
    1) The general area,
    2) The teeing area the player must play from in starting the hole he or she is playing,
    3) All penalty areas,
    4) All bunkers, and
    5) The putting green of the hole the player is playing.

    https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=5

    OK but I was watching the coverage and there was a sign sticking in the area that Kuchar was in and printed on that sign said "Waste Area". I assumed it was to alert players to the fact it wasn't a bunker. Most golfers would understand what is meant by "Waste Area" even if its not an explicitly defined term it is commonly used in golf vernacular.

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  • sergizmosergizmo Members  2763WRX Points: 158Posts: 2,763 Titanium Tees
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    I agree with the announcers on this. Clearly improving his lie and not in the intent of any rule.

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  • the bishopthe bishop Members  4014WRX Points: 1,013Posts: 4,014 Titanium Tees
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    If what he did falls within the letter of the rules, it shouldn't.

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  • Titleist99Titleist99 Members  1106WRX Points: 484Posts: 1,106 Platinum Tees
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    Let me tell you about the rules of golf.....they are there to help you....Period. The top players (except Dustin Johnson) knows how to exploit the rules and they do it all the time especially Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els just to name a few. They figure that Golf gives you so many bad breaks that they deserve a couple of good breaks....Remember if an official is right there and he says that what you are doing is okay then it is okay by the rules, that why they call for rulings when ever something is in question......end of story.

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Titleist99 said:

    Let me tell you about the rules of golf.....they are there to help you....Period. The top players (except Dustin Johnson) knows how to exploit the rules and they do it all the time especially Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els just to name a few. They figure that Golf gives you so many bad breaks that they deserve a couple of good breaks....Remember if an official is right there and he says that what you are doing is okay then it is okay by the rules, that why they call for rulings when ever something is in question......end of story.

    Tiger has a losing record against the rule book. Boulder gate might have been the only time he came out on top.

    Posted:
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
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  • Titleist99Titleist99 Members  1106WRX Points: 484Posts: 1,106 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Vindog said:

    On -, @Titleist99 said:

    Let me tell you about the rules of golf.....they are there to help you....Period. The top players (except Dustin Johnson) knows how to exploit the rules and they do it all the time especially Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els just to name a few. They figure that Golf gives you so many bad breaks that they deserve a couple of good breaks....Remember if an official is right there and he says that what you are doing is okay then it is okay by the rules, that why they call for rulings when ever something is in question......end of story.

    Tiger has a losing record against the rule book. Boulder gate might have been the only time he came out on top.

    WOW! …..Such a general statement. While I've seen Tiger Woods lobby on many occasions for favorable rulings, I have no Idea how many was for or against his request.....maybe you can give me the final count seeing as how your sure that the moving of that small movable object was the only one that went in his favor.....for example was he one for twenty? Is there a tour stat for this? Can't wait for the web site.....LOL!

    t

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