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Can forgiveness become a bad thing?


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My bag has changed through this year.  I was in MP5 last year at this time and could win when my game was on.  But I also still played when my game was a bit off to completely gone.  

 

So I started to tinker when my game was on. I've always thought it was better to change things when you’re on rather than try to fix some flaw with equipment. 

 
First try was some old ping I series and then on to ie1 and now I have G710.   I still know when I’ve struck it well.  I still have days where Im off. But my bets are paying off more often now.  
 

So no I don’t think there is such a thing as to much forgiveness.

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1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Oh yeah i agree, the "immediate improvement threads" can also become high comedy... posts where it's like "i cut 1/4 of an inch of my driver shaft and went from hitting 0 fairways a round to now hitting 14"....or "I swing so poorly with 460cc drivers i would often just swing and miss the ball entirely, but since i went to 445cc it's nothing but 275yd  fades down the middle"

 

Obviously i'm exaggerating now, but you get the idea

 

I believe in the launch science and stuff, i mean there are differences. And guys SHOULD play what they are most comfortable with as you say.

 

 

I agree whole heartedly.  I truly do.  This just  polarizes sides because of the misconceptions that either end of the spectrum have about the clubs they don’t like.  And we all get caught up in trying to explain our personal opinion and things we see on clubs.  Anything I’m saying is alwasy something I’ve tried at length. I played the i500 for 8 or so months winter before last , and got tired of missing greens and hating the long irons.  And this was an Uber fitted set to me.  Same shafts and grips as any of the irons I’ve played.  Moi matched with lead tape , which took a while to do.  And loft and lie adjusted by me on my machine  probably 50 times on one iron or another in those months.  And I still couldn’t fall in total love.  My scoring by average went up a shot.  
 

anyway.  That’s all. In my opinion to answer the op.  Yes. “ forgiveness “ as defined by the oems can be detrimental to your game. Common sense says that if it fits one guy really well.  It can be wrong for another guy on an equal fashion.   So the answer  has to be yes if you’re being logical. 

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2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I’ll regret this reply i know. But....

 

i identify with his statement.  Give me forgiveness and I instantly and instinctively want to hit it harder and farther.  I don’t know why.  But it’s quite detrimental to your game.   It’s The “ because I can” thing.  If I know a 9 iron “ can “ fly 175 on a max swing ... and I pull a 173 yardage I’m going to try to nuke the springy 9.  Vs normally where that’s a smooth 7 iron all day every day unless massive downhill or wind. 
 

I think it’s for several reasons.  One - ego.  My ego comes into it when I have the launcher type irons in the bag. If I’m not hitting less club , what’s the point of carrying them ?  Right ?   And 2.  Spin.  You need to hit these irons harder to get them to spin.  Spin is control.  Faster players aren’t thinking  release. We’re thinking carry only.  Ball will be dead where it lands , even on dry greens with a 5 iron down if I’m playing an MB.  Because of spin. Seeing a 9 iron fly 160  and then roll isn’t forgiveness. Or distance control . So you try to hit it higher and harder for the stopping power.  
 

and no this isn’t a fall over swing.  It’s just a hard swing.  Most good players are going about  80 % on most irons swings. Which I know someone will say booo too.  But it’s true.  Distance irons make me swing harder.  It’s not an isolated though as you Can see. Folks are being honest whne they say this.  It’s been said too many  times by too many people who aren’t just copying each other. 

 

Boo !!! Happy now ?  :classic_laugh:

 

You are talking from the point of a scratch player who plays blades. You are LESS concerned with forgiveness than the average player. Further, your "failure" to swing a more forgiving in control rather than "lash" to hit it further than you should isn't really relevant either. I suppose that's a reaction to my reaction of a "lash" being out of control. Had the guy said "go after it" or some such,,,,,,,,,,

 

Point is there is something to be said for tempo. You have your Matsuyamas and your Finaus,,,,,,,,,, and most players are somewhere in between. Personally I have to remind myself to swing fast/hard even though I'm always dreading it going long,,,,,,, and it almost never does. :classic_ninja: I'm one of those rare(?) guys who makes better contact by swinging harder.

 

Anywho, going forward in this thread I see you and Jeff discussing people exaggerating. And you're talking about an 80% swing on MOST iron shots ?

 

Good grief. NOBODY swings 80% on a full iron shot. EVEN including hitting "1 club more slightly slower" due to course management. e.g. for a front pin where your 8 just might float a little and not make it so you hit a soft 7 as being slightly long is much better than being short.

 

And even then it ain't "80%". 90-95% I'll give you but nobody's swinging 80% with a "full" swing. You probably hit your 8 iron around 170. 80% is 135. You're going to hit an 80% 7 instead of a 95% PW ??? Somehow I doubt it. 

 

 

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Stick with your titleists in the shorter irons if you want to become a better player - SGI short irons are for golfers who play once a month and don't want to embarrass themselves - they're not a serious tool when it comes to golf. If you see mid, or long irons going the same distance (or carry distance converging) you can get massive benefit from going to an iron that increases your launch angle and/or ball speed, spin could play a role too (basically you want to increase carry distance however you do it). The forgiveness story is overrated in my opinion, but the launch conditions are super important when it comes to lengthening carry distances where you need it.  

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3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I’ll regret this reply i know. But....

 

i identify with his statement.  Give me forgiveness and I instantly and instinctively want to hit it harder and farther.  I don’t know why.  But it’s quite detrimental to your game.   It’s The “ because I can” thing.  If I know a 9 iron “ can “ fly 175 on a max swing ... and I pull a 173 yardage I’m going to try to nuke the springy 9.  Vs normally where that’s a smooth 7 iron all day every day unless massive downhill or wind. 
 

I think it’s for several reasons.  One - ego.  My ego comes into it when I have the launcher type irons in the bag. If I’m not hitting less club , what’s the point of carrying them ?  Right ?   And 2.  Spin.  You need to hit these irons harder to get them to spin.  Spin is control.  Faster players aren’t thinking  release. We’re thinking carry only.  Ball will be dead where it lands , even on dry greens with a 5 iron down if I’m playing an MB.  Because of spin. Seeing a 9 iron fly 160  and then roll isn’t forgiveness. Or distance control . So you try to hit it higher and harder for the stopping power.  
 

and no this isn’t a fall over swing.  It’s just a hard swing.  Most good players are going about  80 % on most irons swings. Which I know someone will say booo too.  But it’s true.  Distance irons make me swing harder.  It’s not an isolated though as you Can see. Folks are being honest whne they say this.  It’s been said too many  times by too many people who aren’t just copying each other. 

 

Good observation. Many do this even pros. How many times have we seen a pro in contention(like Phil) trying to put something extra on a the driver swing only to snap hook it or flare it to the right?

 

Speaking of egos, maybe that is the cause or maybe its the joy of doing something to the max which is common in any endevour. However, golf isn't about swinging to the max, it's about the lowest score, which is what I try to remind myself constantly.

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24 minutes ago, mtg said:

SGI short irons are for golfers who play once a month and don't want to embarrass themselves - they're not a serious tool when it comes to golf. 

I’m curious why you think that. SGI irons help golfers hit long straight shots given a moderately decent swing. Most golfers (by averages) aren’t perfect ball strikers and miss the sweet spot a lot. The goal in golf is to get the ball in the hole. If SGI irons make mishits go close to how far a good hit should go in the general direction you want it to go, then that would help most people. 
 

I guess my question is why look down on someone that uses technology to help them? They aren’t “getting better” because they don’t lose 50 yards on a bad strike? Who cares? They hit it straight and the ball goes where it needs to go. What’s the problem?

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23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Boo !!! Happy now ?  :classic_laugh:

 

You are talking from the point of a scratch player who plays blades. You are LESS concerned with forgiveness than the average player. Further, your "failure" to swing a more forgiving in control rather than "lash" to hit it further than you should isn't really relevant either. I suppose that's a reaction to my reaction of a "lash" being out of control. Had the guy said "go after it" or some such,,,,,,,,,,

 

Point is there is something to be said for tempo. You have your Matsuyamas and your Finaus,,,,,,,,,, and most players are somewhere in between. Personally I have to remind myself to swing fast/hard even though I'm always dreading it going long,,,,,,, and it almost never does. :classic_ninja: I'm one of those rare(?) guys who makes better contact by swinging harder.

 

Anywho, going forward in this thread I see you and Jeff discussing people exaggerating. And you're talking about an 80% swing on MOST iron shots ?

 

Good grief. NOBODY swings 80% on a full iron shot. EVEN including hitting "1 club more slightly slower" due to course management. e.g. for a front pin where your 8 just might float a little and not make it so you hit a soft 7 as being slightly long is much better than being short.

 

And even then it ain't "80%". 90-95% I'll give you but nobody's swinging 80% with a "full" swing. You probably hit your 8 iron around 170. 80% is 135. You're going to hit an 80% 7 instead of a 95% PW ??? Somehow I doubt it. 

 

 

  I know what my full on short irons fly with a draw or fade.  ( not same ) and what I play as a stock shot daily.  I do not swing at my full numbers , I just don’t.  There’s less control there. 
 

so you’ve got a full out 8 iron at 178. That’s a high draw hard as I can swing.  And I may hit it once a month over a tree or something .  
If you I asked me my stock 8 iron number I’d say 160 with a fade.  But I’ll play an 8 down to 155  a ton.  I don’t like to hit a 9 iron down hard.  Too much spin.  

 

So that’s not 20%.  It’s around what ? 12 ish % so roughly  88 % effort.  That’s real data , and it’s years worth.  That variance gets wider as you go to long irons and you compare tee vs deck and max vs what I like to call smooth.  

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If scoring better is your objective it's likely your driver and your putter will have a greater impact on your scores than the irons you chose.

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32 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

  I know what my full on short irons fly with a draw or fade.  ( not same ) and what I play as a stock shot daily.  I do not swing at my full numbers , I just don’t.  There’s less control there. 
 

so you’ve got a full out 8 iron at 178. That’s a high draw hard as I can swing.  And I may hit it once a month over a tree or something .  
If you I asked me my stock 8 iron number I’d say 160 with a fade.  But I’ll play an 8 down to 155  a ton.  I don’t like to hit a 9 iron down hard.  Too much spin.  

 

So that’s not 20%.  It’s around what ? 12 ish % so roughly  88 % effort.  That’s real data , and it’s years worth.  That variance gets wider as you go to long irons and you compare tee vs deck and max vs what I like to call smooth.  

 

Maybe it's just a difference in what one considers a "full" shot ? You said "Most good players are going about  80 % on most irons swings". so perhaps I should have asked 80% of WHAT ? That said I would suggest there aren't many players who can hit their "all out" 8 178 but play a "normal" 160 - but who am I to say how you play ?

 

Personally I consider a full shot as my "normal club for distance". I hit an 8 iron 140. If I "step on it", equating roughly to your "full out" (which in MY case I probably should), I hit it 143. But if someone asked me I'd say I hit an 8 140. 

 

80% of that (143 all out) is 115. Unless there was a gale in my face, and that's not really what we're talking about here, I would never pull an 8 iron for 115.

 

Based on MY POV above, taking "5 (yards) off" (160-155) is nowhere near 80%.  Based on what appears to be your POV (178 to 160) you're taking 18 off, from a full blown 178, which you seldom attempt, down to 160, which would still be "only" 90%, not 80%. ☮️

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4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Maybe it's just a difference in what one considers a "full" shot ? You said "Most good players are going about  80 % on most irons swings". so perhaps I should have asked 80% of WHAT ? That said I would suggest there aren't many players who can hit their "all out" 8 178 but play a "normal" 160 - but who am I to say how you play ?

 

Personally I consider a full shot as my "normal club for distance". I hit an 8 iron 140. If I "step on it", equating roughly to your "full out" (which in MY case I probably should), I hit it 143. But if someone asked me I'd say I hit an 8 140. 

 

80% of that (143 all out) is 115. Unless there was a gale in my face, and that's not really what we're talking about here, I would never pull an 8 iron for 115.

 

Based on MY POV above, taking "5 (yards) off" (160-155) is nowhere near 80%.  Based on what appears to be your POV (178 to 160) you're taking 18 off, from a full blown 178, which you seldom attempt, down to 160, which would still be "only" 90%, not 80%. ☮️

And I get that.  But here’s what it is.  
 

my 160 I “ feel “ like is a full swing. It’s not a “ taking off “ number.  What I have is another gear to access. That’s whne the longer carry comes in.  I don’t know I how to describe it.  But that’s what it is. It’s not taking off. It adding to a “ full “ swing.  Which I know is a oxymoron or onomatopoeia or something (lol).   For me it’s just a bigger turn and more deloft  at impact.  I can go way past parallel if I want. I worked 2 seasons to shorten my backswing for control.  
 

now add in a spring face to that crazy equation.  It can go anywhere.  

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15 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Golf equipment companies have misled consumers. Specifically. the club design engineers employed by Callaway, Ping, Titlieist, TaylorMade, Mizuno etc...hang their hats on computer modeling data which reveals a larger head size club produces better shots from mishits. 

But if a larger head causes more mishit shots than a smaller head, is the larger head truly "more forgiving"? The answer is no, and that is why so many posts within this thread are from players proclaiming they strike better shots with a relatively small head.

 

And what data (empirical or theoretical) do you have to back up this claim? Anecdotal evidence from golfers is as reliable "facts" used by a politician during an election year. A majority of amateur golfers are largely delusional, who don't hit nearly as good or far as they think. Let's not mix up ego/opinion and science. 

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6 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

And what data (empirical or theoretical) do you have to back up this claim? Anecdotal evidence from golfers is as reliable "facts" used by a politician during an election year. A majority of amateur golfers are largely delusional, who don't hit nearly as good or far as they think. Let's not mix up ego/opinion and science. 

Lol. Great point.  But.  I can ask where the empirical  data is for the big oem marketing campaign to state “ lower scores “ or “ playing better “ or “ hitting it farther “ ?  
 

it’s ALL ego and opinion.  Play what you want. That’s all that will forgive you.  Whatever your brain doesn’t doubt.  

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2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol. Great point.  But.  I can ask where the empirical  data is for the big oem marketing campaign to state “ lower scores “ or “ playing better “ or “ hitting it farther “ ?  
 

it’s ALL ego and opinion.  Play what you want. That’s all that will forgive you.  Whatever your brain doesn’t doubt.  

Indeed, "thinking" they hit it better is far more valuable than actually hitting it better. I have a buddy who is on the other end of the spectrum, good ball striker, single digit golfer, but he mentally freaks out playing anything remotely "players" oriented. Basically psyches himself out before he takes a single shot. Heck was even the same way with his driver, played more loft than he needed and hit high spiny moon balls, thinking a lower lofted driver was only for better players. 

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19 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Indeed, "thinking" they hit it better is far more valuable than actually hitting it better. I have a buddy who is on the other end of the spectrum, good ball striker, single digit golfer, but he mentally freaks out playing anything remotely "players" oriented. Basically psyches himself out before he takes a single shot. Heck was even the same way with his driver, played more loft than he needed and hit high spiny moon balls, thinking a lower lofted driver was only for better players. 

Yes !   I’ll say this. And before I do I realize it’s illogical.  But what is logical in golf ? 
 

give me a forgiving iron ( say g410 ) and my immediate expectation is that they should shave 2 shots a round off my scoring average and I should hit them dead straight with ease and overall just feel “ easy “ to play.    In reality that’s never going to happen.  So what  happens is - the first bad shot , or the first short shot and my Brain  days “ what ?  Why aren’t these erasing that “?   And the doubt grows from there. 
with a less forgiving iron there’s no promise to live up to.  The only doubt then is onto myself.   Mishits cause more practice. More practice equals growth.  And on and on.  
 

so yes. That very thing exists both directions.  

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That is just making the "focus" or "try harder because" argument with different words. If you don't try to make a good swing then it doesn't matter what is in your hands. If you have this belief in your head that a club will magically hit the ball long and straight no matter what you do, well, that is on you and not the club. I don't know why people persist in blaming a club design for a weak mental state.

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2 hours ago, SugarLandGolfer said:

I’m curious why you think that. SGI irons help golfers hit long straight shots given a moderately decent swing. Most golfers (by averages) aren’t perfect ball strikers and miss the sweet spot a lot. The goal in golf is to get the ball in the hole. If SGI irons make mishits go close to how far a good hit should go in the general direction you want it to go, then that would help most people. 
 

I guess my question is why look down on someone that uses technology to help them? They aren’t “getting better” because they don’t lose 50 yards on a bad strike? Who cares? They hit it straight and the ball goes where it needs to go. What’s the problem?

There is no problem.  One of my playing partners uses a bag full of hybrids and I promise you he will take money out of your pocket.  He is a -1 and his nine holes in one are a reflection of that.  He CAN use blades or smaller cavity backs (and probably should in some ways), he just doesn't want to.  I've seen him throw darts with those hybrids and sink the putts that he needs to make.

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13 minutes ago, tbowles411 said:

There is no problem.  One of my playing partners uses a bag full of hybrids and I promise you he will take money out of your pocket.  He is a -1 and his nine holes in one are a reflection of that.  He CAN use blades or smaller cavity backs (and probably should in some ways), he just doesn't want to.  I've seen him throw darts with those hybrids and sink the putts that he needs to make.

But that's not possible. He should be flying the greens with no distance control and not have any accuracy. This guy would be a +8 if he would only get some blades so he could focus and try harder.

 

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37 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yes !   I’ll say this. And before I do I realize it’s illogical.  But what is logical in golf ? 
 

give me a forgiving iron ( say g410 ) and my immediate expectation is that they should shave 2 shots a round off my scoring average and I should hit them dead straight with ease and overall just feel “ easy “ to play.    In reality that’s never going to happen.  So what  happens is - the first bad shot , or the first short shot and my Brain  days “ what ?  Why aren’t these erasing that “?   And the doubt grows from there. 
with a less forgiving iron there’s no promise to live up to.  The only doubt then is onto myself.   Mishits cause more practice. More practice equals growth.  And on and on.  
 

so yes. That very thing exists both directions.  

 

:classic_laugh: :classic_laugh: :classic_laugh:

 

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1 hour ago, tbowles411 said:

There is no problem.  One of my playing partners uses a bag full of hybrids and I promise you he will take money out of your pocket.  He is a -1 and his nine holes in one are a reflection of that.  He CAN use blades or smaller cavity backs (and probably should in some ways), he just doesn't want to.  I've seen him throw darts with those hybrids and sink the putts that he needs to make.

That’s the thing. He got his ego out of the way and at -1 probably still beats the pants off most people he plays with. He uses the forgiveness to his advantage so he doesn’t have to be 100% perfect on every hit, but he’s obviously still focusing and has good/great course management. The more forgiving clubs (hybrid irons) don’t hinder his scores obviously.

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8 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

and most important, since golf is a game of curves (that is, your ball will curve, and every shot you take should take the inevitable curvature into account), they make it harder to play by making it harder to curve the ball in a controlled fashion, unless you are already good at it and need no forgiveness 

I don’t play many pga tour level courses, so most courses I’ve played don’t require a high fade to a tucked pin. For most average golfers that can’t even get to GIR, getting a club that only goes high and straight is a good thing. For most golfers, they want to take the curve out of the ball (slice or hook).

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18 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

The problem with big faced, low center of gravity, wide soled, long shafted clubs if several fold:

 

long clubs are hard to hit

 

high MOI clubs are hard to square at impact

 

they allow the 90% plus of golfers who hit fat to get what they regard as adequate results from fat hits, so they never learn to hit the ball properly

 

and most important, since golf is a game of curves (that is, your ball will curve, and every shot you take should take the inevitable curvature into account), they make it harder to play by making it harder to curve the ball in a controlled fashion, unless you are already good at it and need no forgiveness 

If you aren't already good at curving the ball then you shouldn't be trying that with any club. This post is full of non-starters to the discussion.

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22 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

The problem with big faced, low center of gravity, wide soled, long shafted clubs if several fold:

 

long clubs are hard to hit

 

high MOI clubs are hard to square at impact

 

they allow the 90% plus of golfers who hit fat to get what they regard as adequate results from fat hits, so they never learn to hit the ball properly

 

and most important, since golf is a game of curves (that is, your ball will curve, and every shot you take should take the inevitable curvature into account), they make it harder to play by making it harder to curve the ball in a controlled fashion, unless you are already good at it and need no forgiveness 

I'm actually really good with straight shots.  Not sure why the 90% you mention need to be worrying about anything other than straight and then working on their short game.  

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I can see both sides of the argument here.  I seem to a hit long iron (3,4) more solid in forgiving clubs, but I miss a pure blade in the mid/short irons.  Forgiving clubs are definitely easier to hit, but seems like I never have the control I'd like. This year I played Callaway Apex Pro 19s.. nice clubs, but never seemed to have the pinpoint, knock flags down  accuracy I once did when playing blades.  For reference I am currently a +1.

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On 11/1/2020 at 2:05 PM, LeoLeo99 said:

I equate blades more to my old wooden Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff tennis racquet than anything modern.  New blades have a little more technology than back in the 70s.  

 

I play G400 irons and the extra forgiveness kicks in about 4 times a round.  They help hide small mistakes.  

 

The problem with this analogy is that in tennis you're hitting a ball moving at high rate of speed while you are moving to get to it....forgiveness and great hand/eye coordination are everything in that situation.   In golf you are stationary and hitting a stationary object.  In this case, it is all about your ability to execute a repeatable swing.

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6 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

they allow the 90% plus of golfers who hit fat to get what they regard as adequate results from fat hits, so they never learn to hit the ball properly


So much this. I know because I was that guy playing shovels and didn’t even know what a good strike was until I got some MP-58s (cuz they were pretty) and had to learn how to actually strike the ball properly. Glad I stuck it out! 
 

I got paired with a guy I hadn’t ever golfed with in our 4 week post-league Wednesday night men’s group and he had some big TM shovels. Hit a fat scoop shot for all his approach shots. High and straight every time but distance and spin all over the place, ball got blown around by the wind, never knew if it was going to stop when it hit a green or bound off the back. 

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Forgiveness can be problematic, so it's not to be abused, unfortunately, many people do exactly that.  If you're aware of attention to details when over the ball, forgiveness won't be as important to the end result.

 

When I play a course that has no practice range, I spend the first 5-7 holes finding my iron swing.  With 620 MBs, its more attention getting than if playing all 620 CBs. 

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1 hour ago, gbauguss said:

 

The problem with this analogy is that in tennis you're hitting a ball moving at high rate of speed while you are moving to get to it....forgiveness and great hand/eye coordination are everything in that situation.   In golf you are stationary and hitting a stationary object.  In this case, it is all about your ability to execute a repeatable swing.

And my swing isn't as repeatable as some others'.  Hence larger sweet spot benefits me. 

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9 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Yes !   I’ll say this. And before I do I realize it’s illogical.  But what is logical in golf ? 
 

give me a forgiving iron ( say g410 ) and my immediate expectation is that they should shave 2 shots a round off my scoring average and I should hit them dead straight with ease and overall just feel “ easy “ to play.    In reality that’s never going to happen.  So what  happens is - the first bad shot , or the first short shot and my Brain  days “ what ?  Why aren’t these erasing that “?   And the doubt grows from there. 
with a less forgiving iron there’s no promise to live up to.  The only doubt then is onto myself.   Mishits cause more practice. More practice equals growth.  And on and on.  
 

so yes. That very thing exists both directions.  

My own example of this...for 30+ years or so I have played some version of a players cavity/CB and a blade set or two. One day about ten years ago I was hitting a friends SGI 4 iron with a graphite shaft on the range. And I’m thinking to myself that they are just stupid easy to hit high and straight. Perfect! So I go to the local shop and voila! They have a used set in good condition with my specs. Must be fate! So I buy them.

  First round I play with them it’s a windy day here in Phoenix. Texans would call it a mild breeze but probably 15-20 mph all day.  Remember I said they go high and straight? I absolutely cannot flight these dang things down a foot! Just high and straight. 
 

Luckily they had a satisfaction guarantee at the shop and were returned the next day.

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Today's market features all kinds of clubs from muscle backs through shovels, with a lot of stops along the way. Seems like anyone can find the right blend of feel and forgiveness to match their preferences. 

 

Max game improvement clubs these days won't provide much if any feedback on the quality of strike, so you'll have to pay closer attention to ballflight and impact patterns to know about your contact. 

 

I like forged cavity backs. I love the feel of good contact, and if contact isn't good I prefer to know about it. 

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