Can forgiveness become a bad thing?

[CW13]

I started playing this summer and im

currently shooting in the mid 90s. I currently play Titleist 716 CBs (I bought them used and I know they’re obviously way to advanced for me) I’m looking into getting more forgiveness to help with consistency and such. I’m wondering if down there road (assuming I improve) that forgiveness will ever hold me back to where it’s better to just learn on my current irons?
 

I’m coming at it from a tennis perspective, I currently play pretty high level tennis and my racquets are the equivalent of blades (heavy, smaller head size, etc). If I ever tried to use a beginner type of racquet I know my game would suffer significantly. So I was wondering if golf clubs function that same way once you get to a certain level.  

[Jc0]

7 minutes ago, CW13 said:

I started playing this summer and im

currently shooting in the mid 90s. I currently play Titleist 716 CBs (I bought them used and I know they’re obviously way to advanced for me) I’m looking into getting more forgiveness to help with consistency and such. I’m wondering if down there road (assuming I improve) that forgiveness will ever hold me back to where it’s better to just learn on my current irons?
 

I’m coming at it from a tennis perspective, I currently play pretty high level tennis and my racquets are the equivalent of blades (heavy, smaller head size, etc). If I ever tried to use a beginner type of racquet I know my game would suffer significantly. So I was wondering if golf clubs function that same way once you get to a certain level.  

 

It won't really hold you back but it will help for certain clubs. For driver to 4 iron you want the most forgiving things you are comfortable with, 5-8 blend of forgiveness and control, and 9-lw all control. If you want to think about it in tennis terms you will feel at some point that the clubs are getting in the way of the shot you are trying to play, such as how beginner tennis racket doesn't really have a lot of spin which makes adding topspin difficult. When you start to notice this then it is probably time to move to more players clubs.

[Wooderson]

I don't think it's an easy question to answer and is probably player perspective. One thing I always remember is that 40 years ago players only had blade irons or almost blades to play and yet with all the "forgiveness" we have, the average score has not gotten better. 

[Bad9]

No

[msg]

I got to single digit handicap using GI irons. I have been using GI irons ever since my handicap dropped to single, heck I have been using GI irons since I started golfing. I was using Ap1 714's then this year Cobra F9 Speedbacks.

 

But recently I finally decided to move on. All I can say is that I should have done it years ago. My ball striking is the best part of my game and I have never enjoyed this much, hitting irons since making the switch. 

 

My buddy who started playing just 6 years ago, could not stand GI irons and started off using small forged head irons even if he could not break 100 when he started. He is nearing single digits now and should break the into the single next year if he continues his great play. 

 

It's all a matter of your preference and what will work for you. I believe it is all personal. We are very different players and we took a different path to get better. 

[Sean2]

I think forgiveness is overrated. Regardless of what type of clubs you play, you still have to put a good swing on the ball. 

[chippa13]

And the countdown for this thread to turn begins in 3....2....1.....

[chipa]

I'm a high h.c. with aspirations of being a single digit h.c. and I play cheap blades because I started with smaller clubs plus I hit GI irons and didn't feel it helped with my problem of overswinging. Hitting a smaller club forces me to focus on making a controlled swing as opposed to lashing at the ball. I also like the fact that they are traditional lofts so I don't get caught up in how far I can hit my irons.

[chippa13]

Hitting any club forces one to make a controlled swing over lashing at it. And here we go, 5 posts in and we're already at the "focus" nonsense.

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, CW13 said:

I started playing this summer and im

currently shooting in the mid 90s. I currently play Titleist 716 CBs (I bought them used and I know they’re obviously way to advanced for me) I’m looking into getting more forgiveness to help with consistency and such.

 

The down side to larger head "more forgiving" irons is that from sloped, grassy, or other less than ideal lies they may be harder to square at impact.

My guess is that you will hit as good or better shots with your 716 CB's than you would a larger club head (such as AP1 or AP2).

[SugarLandGolfer]

No, I don’t think forgiveness is overrated, and many players should probably be playing more forgiving irons than they currently play if they wanted to shoot a better score. However, for some players it’s not all about lower scores.

[kiwihacker]

Also having a tennis background I hear where you are coming from but as in tennis and also in golf there are extremes at both ends of the equipment spectrum. There are muscle back blades at one end and SGI irons at the other. In between there are 'tweener' clubs that offer the best of both worlds. It's a matter of finding what works best for you. Also a key difference between tennis and golf is that in tennis you only have one racquet whereas in golf you have 14 clubs. Probably best to play the most forgiving clubs you can at the longer end of the bag, driver, fairway woods/hybrids, long irons. From mid irons to short irons you can start to play irons with more feel.

 

Having said all that I have seen superb players playing low single figure golf to scratch with anything from blades to Ping G410's. So it really is about the skill of the player more than the equipment. I don't think forgiveness would hold you back at all. Having played everything from blades to SGI my scores don't vary much. My inconsistent swing is the biggest variable affecting my scoring. 

[PowderedToastMan]

It’s not about forgiveness as much as it is about how your swing holds up to certain sole widths, bounce angles, leading edge sharpness and how that affects turf interaction. Some skilled players have impact conditions that are favourable to some extra bounce and blunted leading edges, whereas many benefit from more classic player’s designs. 
 

As you improve, you’ll probably need to change irons, not because you necessarily need less forgiving irons, but because your impact conditions have changed and you need an iron to match up better with your dynamics. 

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, SugarLandGolfer said:

No, I don’t think forgiveness is overrated, and many players should probably be playing more forgiving irons than they currently play if they wanted to shoot a better score. However, for some players it’s not all about lower scores.

 

I notice the opposite. Specifically, the golf industry (OEM's, retailers, fitters ) guide players to jumbo head irons with which the players struggle to make consistently good quality ball contact. Honestly, in the years prior to over size irons I saw players produce better shots with irons.

[jomatty]

2 hours ago, SugarLandGolfer said:

No, I don’t think forgiveness is overrated, and many players should probably be playing more forgiving irons than they currently play if they wanted to shoot a better score. However, for some players it’s not all about lower scores.

This is, imho, the answer.  Most players that are not low single digit would benefit from more forgiving clubs.  But it’s a game so if it’s more fun to play with blades or something else then people should do that.  But don’t fool yourself into thinking that forgiveness doesn’t matter.  On terrible strikes nothing will save you but when you catch one just slightly towards the toe it can make all the difference...

[setter02]

7 hours ago, Sean2 said:

I think forgiveness is overrated. Regardless of what type of clubs you play, you still have to put a good swing on the ball. 

 

 

I whole heartedly disagree.  After a few years away from the game, my miss changed to being severely out on the toe on driver and irons.  So much so that during a fitting I would show the guy my balls marks and we both just shook our heads in disbelief, yet I was still able to get back into the 70s. 

 

I would almost miss the ball with driver and still get something that left me either in play or fairway and able to do more than just scramble for bogey or worse.  I've always had good distance control, and was still able to maintain this while missing the sweet spot on the club face by an inch with my irons. 

 

None of my blades could give the results or poor contact like my I20s and I210s can and do.  Obviously a work in progress as I started lessons to eventually get back to better contact, but I can easily see 7-8 strokes a round potentially being saved with more a forgiving driver and irons for me.

[Sean2]

4 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

 

I whole heartedly disagree.  After a few years away from the game, my miss changed to being severely out on the toe on driver and irons.  So much so that during a fitting I would show the guy my balls marks and we both just shook our heads in disbelief, yet I was still able to get back into the 70s. 

 

I would almost miss the ball with driver and still get something that left me either in play or fairway and able to do more than just scramble for bogey or worse.  I've always had good distance control, and was still able to maintain this while missing the sweet spot on the club face by an inch with my irons. 

 

None of my blades could give the results or poor contact like my I20s and I210s can and do.  Obviously a work in progress as I started lessons to eventually get back to better contact, but I can easily see 7-8 strokes a round potentially being saved with more a forgiving driver and irons for me.

My experience has been different from yours. I have played everything from MB's to SGI's and haven't noticed any appreciable difference in scores. 

 

[Ger21]

4 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

None of my blades could give the results or poor contact like my I20s and I210s can and do.  Obviously a work in progress as I started lessons to eventually get back to better contact, but I can easily see 7-8 strokes a round potentially being saved with more a forgiving driver and irons for me.

So changing clubs can get you from an 8 to scratch?

[MtlJeff]

Guys have played on the PGA tour with different kinds of SGI clubs , so it won't hold you back if those are the clubs you want to use

[braincramp52]

This is only my experience. The only thing that has lowered my scores and handicap over the last 33 years is the amount of golf I play. What I'm swinging has had very little to do with it.

[braincramp52]

4 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

Guys have played on the PGA tour with different kinds of SGI clubs , so it won't hold you back if those are the clubs you want to use

 

I play almost all my golf at primarily 2 clubs. The Club Champion at one is a +1 and plays G410 irons. The other is a scratch and plays older FG59 Wilson blades. 

[bladehunter]

14 hours ago, CW13 said:

I started playing this summer and im

currently shooting in the mid 90s. I currently play Titleist 716 CBs (I bought them used and I know they’re obviously way to advanced for me) I’m looking into getting more forgiveness to help with consistency and such. I’m wondering if down there road (assuming I improve) that forgiveness will ever hold me back to where it’s better to just learn on my current irons?
 

I’m coming at it from a tennis perspective, I currently play pretty high level tennis and my racquets are the equivalent of blades (heavy, smaller head size, etc). If I ever tried to use a beginner type of racquet I know my game would suffer significantly. So I was wondering if golf clubs function that same way once you get to a certain level.  

Wonderfully worded question op.  
 

 

my opinion is , if you’ve the mind to ask that question ... the answer at some point will likely be yes.  The truth is that you can go low with anything that you decide you want to play.  Buy if there’s an ounce of doubt there.  You’re toast.  So you decide what you are confident in.  That’s the only real forgiveness available.  The mental checklist type.  

[Tiptx1122]

I think every club is very forgiving as long as you hit the sweet spot. Now talking about forgiveness on your SGI irons you can get away with a better shot when you don't hit the sweet spot but I really don't think they help you to become a better ball striker.

 

I like a club that feels great when you hit that sweet spot as I never thought the adjustment from hitting forged irons to cast would make that much of a difference. Like I said all clubs when you hit that sweet spot are forgiving just like that feel you get with any club is awesome but with playing forged or something as nice is pretty special and has helped me to become a better ball striker. So if you get fitted for a forgiving forged club to me they go hand and hand. Clubs have pretty much max'ed out in forgiveness and distance as now everyone seems to jack up their lofts to make you think you're getting more distance in irons. 

 

Now I think companies are focusing more on the feel that most player are desiring as that is a good thing, that's something you don't hear as much about until now. Mizuno player exactly what that feel is like but other brands are now catching up so it's going to be an interesting year.

 

The only other thing we might see other brands do is what Callaway has started with their X forged CB is replaceable weights and start making irons adjustable. Not too sure if I'm on board with that idea but if it works good for them. 

 

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, chippa13 said:

And the countdown for this thread to turn begins in 3....2....1.....

 

14 hours ago, chipa said:

I'm a high h.c. with aspirations of being a single digit h.c. and I play cheap blades because I started with smaller clubs plus I hit GI irons and didn't feel it helped with my problem of overswinging. Hitting a smaller club forces me to focus on making a controlled swing as opposed to lashing at the ball. I also like the fact that they are traditional lofts so I don't get caught up in how far I can hit my irons.

 

Wow.

 

Took no time at all,,,,,,,,,, 

 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, Ger21 said:

So changing clubs can get you from an 8 to scratch?

 

Probably not but who knows ?

 

Actually it most likely depends on the starting point. As is generally considered the norm, the lower you go the harder it is to shave strokes.

 

For the vast majority of golfers, especially the "social" type, it's fairly "easy" for a 25 to get to 17 - just practice a little and play more. Less "easy" but still not too hard to get from 17 to 9.

 

But once into the single digits those "strokes improved by" become far more difficult to achieve. 

[Nixhex524]

4 hours ago, Sean2 said:

My experience has been different from yours. I have played everything from MB's to SGI's and haven't noticed any appreciable difference in scores. 

 

Same for me.  I tried going the i210 route and noticed zero difference from scoring (actually a little worse) from my BH Icons or Z745s.  Thought it might help but for me, it did not matter.  Currently looking to replace the i210 before anything else in my bag.  No substitute for good contact, mis hits may not be quite as punishing but GI clubs are not magic.

[golfinbrad]

I agree with Sean2 and Nixhex524,  Forgiveness is a good thing, but everyone has a different interpretation of forgiveness or at least how much.  I've switched from blades to CBs multiple times, including this year.  Had my worst season iron play wise in a decade.  I don't recall ever thinking I was better off with the CB on a mishit.  Bad swings and contact still came up short.  Pick a iron that you like how it looks at address and how it frames the ball.  I think shaft weight and profile will have a bigger impact on consistency than the head.  Just my thoughts.

[chipa]

16 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Hitting any club forces one to make a controlled swing over lashing at it. And here we go, 5 posts in and we're already at the "focus" nonsense.

 

"Hitting any club forces one to make a controlled swing over lashing at it"

 

The above statement is not true for me I do lash at the ball because I am at times too enamored of hitting 300 yard drives and 180 yard 7 irons.  I'm glad it is for you but honestly we should let each person speak for themselves don't you think?

Edited November 1, 2020 by chipa

[setter02]

6 hours ago, Ger21 said:

So changing clubs can get you from an 8 to scratch?

 

If I had the ability level to get to scratch, sure.  I did after all say 'for me' which you've conveniently left out to try and further your narrative but can give back story.  4 years ago I was at my personal best of only 4.7 (with I20's).  Starting this year I was likely closer to an 18-20 at best as I only played maybe 5-6 times in that time and had no assemblence of a consistent swing.  Played once last year and proceeded to lose 13 balls on a course I don't think is very hard.  But, it's one of the only times I've ever been able to just laugh it off and accept it.

 

My miss all year has been the same, massively on the toe so badly that I was almost missing the ball off the tee.  So it's pretty easy to see what clubs work better for that miss and keep me at least in play (hint, it wasn't the TS4 vs. a G410+).

 

Same with irons, same miss.  I have a sexy set of Scratch SB-1 heads on my work bench.  They are on that work bench because they can't perform for me and my current needs vs. my I20s and I210s.

 

Even with all the changing of gear as I flip things as a hobby (10+ iron sets, 4-5 drivers).  I was still able to break 80 in regular play and 80 in low level 'competition' and those rounds were done with the more forgiving gear, not the sexy playas gear.  I have seen the difference in what can help me continue to play this game and manage expectations.  If I was to game a round with the TS4 and one of my blade sets, I easily saw where I was losing strokes vs. a G410+ and either I series iron.  If I wasn't playing poorly with them, they might be in the bag vs. current set up.

Edited November 1, 2020 by setter02

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

 

"Hitting any club forces one to make a controlled swing over lashing at it"

 

The above statement is not true for me I do lash at the ball because I am at times too enamored of hitting 300 yard drives and 180 yard 7 irons.  I'm glad it is for you but honestly we should let each person speak for themselves don't you think?

You’re a 15 enamored with 300 yard drives and 180 yard 7 irons? Do you hit those regularly or just hoping to?  Just curious as I have never ever met one of those.