Farmers Insurance Open 2021

[sevenputts]

52 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

I am not so sure that I agree. My view is that both McIlory and Reed were in the wrong. I am prepared to give Rory a pass on this occasion because he has not given us reason to doubt him before now. Reed on the other hand, has given us more reasons than he has had hot dinners.

 

Look at it this way - guy walks into a shop, tries on a hat, forgets about it and walks out. Unlikely but is happens. If the guy hadn’t done anything like that before, it could be chalked up as a mistake. On the other hand, if he had done that multiple times in the past, the changes of it being a mistake would be less.

No, they DID the same thing. I understand the world viewing it like that intents etc, etc, But at the end of the day, they did the same thing. 

[BIG STU]

7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Nah. The guy i quoted wants him to kiss the media’s butt to regain image. What folks don’t realize is that some of us dont care about image.  All the extra side sponsors get you is censorship. Freedom , albeit incremental amounts , tastes better than a few more $. 

As us old timers say--- He does not give two hoots and marches to the beat of his own drum which is my sentiments and attitude exactly---- But with that being said I will repeat what I said earlier--- I do try to square my actions and live above reproach whether it be life or golf---- I think all in all he did not follow maybe common sense procedure and is maybe seeing what that leads to will tend to use common sense in the future

[the bishop]

Regarding Rory's situation and his belief that his ball came down in its own pitch mark I've take a couple of screen grabs.

This shows Rory's ball rebounding immediately after initial impact.  Note its relation to the white mark:

 

This shows Rory's ball settling down following its bounce.  Again note relation to the white mark:

This isn't to cast aspersions on Rory, who I like a lot and I believe he believes it did come down in its own pitch mark.  But I don't believe it did. If this means the ground was soft enough to create another pitch mark after hitting a second time after a low bounce my question would be if its that soft why didn't it just plug to begin with?  At any rate if it could create another pitch mark on the second landing then its also possible it could for Reed.  However to remove suspicions and potential accusations going forward the Tour may want to revisit that rule change regarding these situations.

[soregongolfer]

I give Rory a pass because the area where he hit his ball looked a little sparse grass-wise.  His ball may easily have plugged, and because he's never been in a cheating scandal that I know of, he gets a pass from me.

 

Reed's ball bounced regardless of what the spotter thought and there is no way that ball plugged in that area with tall, lush, green grass that was laying down.  His ball filtered to the bottom and he knew he was looking at bogey or worse.  Reed knew he could take advantage of the situation and he did.  He flat out cheated and it's not the first time.  The other players know it, too.  What he needs is a warning from the tour.  One more time and he gets banned for a year.  

[bladehunter]

Just now, soregongolfer said:

I give Rory a pass because the area where he hit his ball looked a little sparse grass-wise.  His ball may easily have plugged, and because he's never been in a cheating scandal that I know of, he gets a pass from me.

 

Reed's ball bounced regardless of what the spotter thought and there is no way that ball plugged in that area with tall, lush, green grass that was laying down.  His ball filtered to the bottom and he knew he was looking at bogey or worse.  Reed knew he could take advantage of the situation and he did.  He flat out cheated and it's not the first time.  The other players know it, too.  What he needs is a warning from the tour.  One more time and he gets banned for a year.  

Warning  for what ?  Following the rules ? Or keeping his cool while being asked the same question 367 times by reporters hell  bent on making up a story ,? 
 

bottom line. No rules were broken.  Bottom line. The real issue here is lack of rules knowledge by the media. 

[soregongolfer]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Warning  for what ?  Following the rules ? Or keeping his cool while being asked the same question 367 times by reporters hell  bent on making up a story ,? 
 

bottom line. No rules were broken.  Bottom line. The real issue here is lack of rules knowledge by the media. 

The ball was not embedded.  You don't get a free drop there.  A rule was broken.  The difference is you're taking his word that the ball was imbedded.  I'm not.  

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, soregongolfer said:

The ball was not embedded.  You don't get a free drop there.  A rule was broken.  The difference is you're taking his word that the ball was imbedded.  I'm not.  

Do you have pics ,?  So Rory cheated   too ? 
 

this is getting comical.  We can’t argue with known facts by stating suppositions based on hate.  

Edited February 1, 2021 by bladehunter

[soregongolfer]

Just now, bladehunter said:

Do you have pics ,?  So Rory cheated   too ? 
 

this is getting comical.  We can’t argue with known facts by stating suppositions based on hate.  

We don't know for sure because he moved his ball.  As I stated in the post you responded to, there is no way that ball plugged after having bounced and landed in an area with deep, green, lush grass.  No way at all.  What's comical is people defending a known cheat and taking his word for anything.  

[snagy2000]

I guess the rules official sticking his finger in the plug mark and giving the OK should be ignored. 

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, soregongolfer said:

We don't know for sure because he moved his ball.  As I stated in the post you responded to, there is no way that ball plugged after having bounced and landed in an area with deep, green, lush grass.  No way at all.  What's comical is people defending a known cheat and taking his word for anything.  

We know that he is allowed to pick up the ball to identify it and/or to check to see it it’s plugged.  So that can x off the “ he picked it up “ gripe.  He’s allowed to.  Period.  He doesn’t lose his right to the rules because his name is Patrick.  
 

tje officials agreed.  They determined it was plugged.  Period. If that call was wrong. They made it.  Which also exonerates the player.  You follow the advice of officials abd it’s wrong. You aren’t penalized.   
 

and 3rd. Rory did the identical thing. In an identical setting , with no officials blessing. Abd he has been given no crap about it.  This whole  farce that claims Rory’s rough was different than reeds is just confirmation  bias rearing it’s ugly head.  

[davep043]

1 hour ago, the bishop said:

However to remove suspicions and potential accusations going forward the Tour may want to revisit that rule change regarding these situations.

The Tour doesn't make the Rules.  But assuming a rule change is in order, what would you want it to say?

6 minutes ago, soregongolfer said:

The ball was not embedded.  You don't get a free drop there.  A rule was broken.  The difference is you're taking his word that the ball was imbedded.  I'm not. 

The ball's position was marked, and the Official felt evidence that the ball was embedded.  This goes beyond Reed's judgement, it was corroborated by an Official.  I'm accepting the judgement of both Reed AND the Official.  If you choose to believe that Reed "created" that embedment, that's on you, but the video doesn't show that.

[the bishop]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The Tour doesn't make the Rules.  But assuming a rule change is in order, what would you want it to say?

 

Thanks for that Dave.  You are more knowlegable on rules than I am but my understanding is there was a rule change in 2019 regarding these situations in an effort to encourage faster play.  Could they just go back to the old rule?

[soregongolfer]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The Tour doesn't make the Rules.  But assuming a rule change is in order, what would you want it to say?

The ball's position was marked, and the Official felt evidence that the ball was embedded.  This goes beyond Reed's judgement, it was corroborated by an Official.  I'm accepting the judgement of both Reed AND the Official.  If you choose to believe that Reed "created" that embedment, that's on you, but the video doesn't show that.

"Evidence" and I quoted it on purpose, that could only be felt and not seen.  As if dirty is naturally flat and level.  Sorry, but I'm not buying it.  He was told the ball didn't bounce and took advantage.  Later, we saw the ball actually did bounce.  And, again, there is no way that ball plugged from that short bounce.  If you want to take his word for it, that's okay.  I don't.  But having played for years here in the rainy Pacific Northwest, my experience says there is no way that ball plugged.  None.

[the bishop]

1 minute ago, soregongolfer said:

"Evidence" and I quoted it on purpose, that could only be felt and not seen.  As if dirty is naturally flat and level.  Sorry, but I'm not buying it.  He was told the ball didn't bounce and took advantage.  Later, we saw the ball actually did bounce.  And, again, there is no way that ball plugged from that short bounce.  If you want to take his word for it, that's okay.  I don't.  But having played for years here in the rainy Pacific Northwest, my experience says there is no way that ball plugged.  None.

All plugged balls are embedded but not all embedded balls are plugged.

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, soregongolfer said:

"Evidence" and I quoted it on purpose, that could only be felt and not seen.  As if dirty is naturally flat and level.  Sorry, but I'm not buying it.  He was told the ball didn't bounce and took advantage.  Later, we saw the ball actually did bounce.  And, again, there is no way that ball plugged from that short bounce.  If you want to take his word for it, that's okay.  I don't.  But having played for years here in the rainy Pacific Northwest, my experience says there is no way that ball plugged.  None.

So Rory Cheated too ? If you’re willing to say that , then I can take your opinion as valid. But if you can’t ? It’s just based on the person. Abs that’s wrong. 

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, soregongolfer said:

"Evidence" and I quoted it on purpose, that could only be felt and not seen.  As if dirty is naturally flat and level.  Sorry, but I'm not buying it.  He was told the ball didn't bounce and took advantage.  Later, we saw the ball actually did bounce.  And, again, there is no way that ball plugged from that short bounce.  If you want to take his word for it, that's okay.  I don't.  But having played for years here in the rainy Pacific Northwest, my experience says there is no way that ball plugged.  None.

Yet Rory's ball bounced, and @the bishop has looked at the video, showing it was probably NOT in its original pitch mark, but embedded after a bounce.  Was his embedment equally impossible in your eyes?  And again, what "facts" are any of us ignoring?

 

12 minutes ago, the bishop said:

Thanks for that Dave.  You are more knowlegable on rules than I am but my understanding is there was a rule change in 2019 regarding these situations in an effort to encourage faster play.  Could they just go back to the old rule?

The USGA/R&A did change this rule in 2019, allowing embedded ball relief in the General Area, when previously it was allowed only in "closely mown areas".  However, I've learned that the PGA Tour has generally extended embedded ball relief to "through the green" for a couple of decades or longer, so there's really little change at that level.  (This came from someone I trust to be accurate on another site, I don't have personal knowledge). The biggest change may be in lifting the ball for more situations, and lifting without notifying anyone.  Although both Rors and RP did notify their playing partners about what they were doing.

Edited February 1, 2021 by davep043

[Greg_B]

1 hour ago, the bishop said:

Regarding Rory's situation and his belief that his ball came down in its own pitch mark I've take a couple of screen grabs.

This shows Rory's ball rebounding immediately after initial impact.  Note its relation to the white mark:

 

This shows Rory's ball settling down following its bounce.  Again note relation to the white mark:

This isn't to cast aspersions on Rory, who I like a lot and I believe he believes it did come down in its own pitch mark.  But I don't believe it did. If this means the ground was soft enough to create another pitch mark after hitting a second time after a low bounce my question would be if its that soft why didn't it just plug to begin with?  At any rate if it could create another pitch mark on the second landing then its also possible it could for Reed.  However to remove suspicions and potential accusations going forward the Tour may want to revisit that rule change regarding these situations.

 

Thanks for posting this. Last night I stumbled upon GC's replay of the CBS broadcast and shortly after I watched this sequence on video from Saturday. I used my DVR to rewind and freeze-frame the landing of Rory's ball. I also saw that white spot in the rough and you could see that Rory's ball moved to the right slightly (and possibly forward though that could not be determined for sure) when it bounced and most definitely did not land in its original pitch mark. So that makes his situation even more like what Reed faced. I am also struck by the caterwauling complaining that Reed surreptitiously cleaned the ball when he had it in hand. That is of course a totally meaningless argument because once the official told him he agreed with Reed's interpretation of the rules it was OK to clean the ball, which is what Reed clearly told his caddy as could be heard on the broadcast.

[bladehunter]

Put yourself in this position. 
 

 

tournament play . You hit a 200 yard wild  shot left.  You walk up and look for it , and finally find it.   The deep rough.  Do you 1. Call an official or 2. Pick it up first to identify it ?  
 

answer. You identify it first.  Why ?  Because if you call and official and it’s not your ball , youve wasted your 3 minutes search time.  And the officials time and your groups time.  You identify the ball.  
 

while doing that you see it’s broken ground and in your opinion plugged.  You then call an official.  He/she guides you from there.  
 

This is exactly what I saw happen.  I don’t understand how anyone with any sense thinks you leave that ball burried and hope it’s yours and call an official first.  Do you call officials to identify your ball ?  I hope not.  It’s wasting everyone’s time.  
 

its also important to note. The rules just changed to allow lifting a ball without notifying anyone.  I griped about this rule change whne it happened. But the rules are the rules. If you want to champion a roll back of that rule. I’d be with you.  

Edited February 1, 2021 by bladehunter

[drbonesvt]

✅ is Patrick good 

✅ he did follow the rules 

✅ he did make himself look guilting by immediately moving the ball and then look like he’s digging for coal in China 

✅ perception meets reality, that he’s untruthful 

❌ did himself NO favors by managing situation in a manner , that would have put him beyond reproach 

 

imop , if you are going to touch the ball by all means have a second set of independent eyes on it.  
 

does he deserve his own line of Home Depot garden tools, jury is still out 

[the bishop]

3 minutes ago, Greg_B said:

 

Thanks for posting this. Last night I stumbled upon GC's replay of the CBS broadcast and shortly after I watched this sequence on video from Saturday. I used my DVR to rewind and freeze-frame the landing of Rory's ball. I also saw that white spot in the rough and you could see that Rory's ball moved to the right slightly (and possibly forward though that could not be determined for sure) when it bounced and most definitely did not land in its original pitch mark. So that makes his situation even more like what Reed faced. I am also struck by the caterwauling complaining that Reed surreptitiously cleaned the ball when he had it in hand. That is of course a totally meaningless argument because once the official told him he agreed with Reed's interpretation of the rules it was OK to clean the ball, which is what Reed clearly told his caddy as could be heard on the broadcast.

One thing I would say is this type of thing could be related to Covid in that if general specatators were allowed there may well have been different outcomes for both Reed and Rory.

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

This is exactly what I saw happen.  I don’t understand how anyone with any sense thinks you leave that ball burried and hope it’s yours and call an official first.  Do you call officials to identify your ball ?  I hope not.  It’s wasting everyone’s time.  

The way I interpreted this, based on the volunteer pointing out the ball, he wasn't lifting to identify it.  He was lifting it it evaluate whether it was embedded, which was reasonable given the available information at the time (nobody saw the ball bounce).  But I'm with you, he is specifically allowed to do that under the Rules.  

 

The commentators would have called an official first because most aren't knowledgeable about the rules.  The best way to get in real trouble is to pick up your ball without knowing exactly what the rules allow or require.  If you're half-ignorant, its safer to wait.  PR and Rory apparently both know the rules, and acted in accordance with them.

[miamistomp]

 I can't read any more of this

 

 He won by 5

 He broke no rule

 Some guys hate him

 And CBS needs to evaluate its on air talent for stoking the fire with bullcrap opinions - if they can't,ship the coverage back to Fox ( where such opinion mongering is an art)

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

And CBS needs to evaluate its on air talent for stoking the fire with bullcrap opinions -

Their job isn't necessarily to be right, its to attract and keep viewers.  Stoking a controversy is one way of doing just that.  Yes, some will be turned off, but others may tune in just to hear the caterwauling.

[tiger1873]

At the level of Golf Patrick Reed is playing he knows better He should have called an official before he touched the ball.  given the issues he had in the past he should be going out of his way to make sure no one accuses him.

 

The sad fact is he is obviously a cheater. doesn't care what anyone thinks and will be caught again. The PGA is eventually going to find something and Ban him.

 

You would think he would want sponsors who would want to sponsor this guy.

[MattyO1984]

2 hours ago, sevenputts said:

No, they DID the same thing. I understand the world viewing it like that intents etc, etc, But at the end of the day, they did the same thing. 

 

No disagreements that they did the same thing but what I am saying is that I am willing to give Rory a pass. If Reed has the same record as Rory, I would give him a pass also but he quite clearly does not.

[MattyO1984]

14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Put yourself in this position. 
 

 

tournament play . You hit a 200 yard wild  shot left.  You walk up and look for it , and finally find it.   The deep rough.  Do you 1. Call an official or 2. Pick it up first to identify it ?  
 

answer. You identify it first.  Why ?  Because if you call and official and it’s not your ball , youve wasted your 3 minutes search time.  And the officials time and your groups time.  You identify the ball.  
 

while doing that you see it’s broken ground and in your opinion plugged.  You then call an official.  He/she guides you from there.  
 

This is exactly what I saw happen.  I don’t understand how anyone with any sense thinks you leave that ball burried and hope it’s yours and call an official first.  Do you call officials to identify your ball ?  I hope not.  It’s wasting everyone’s time.  
 

its also important to note. The rules just changed to allow lifting a ball without notifying anyone.  I griped about this rule change whne it happened. But the rules are the rules. If you want to champion a roll back of that rule. I’d be with you.  

 

Was there ever any question that the ball was Reed’s? I am not sure that there was. If there was, once he has identified it, he should have put it back until the  official arrived.

[sevenputts]

10 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

No disagreements that they did the same thing but what I am saying is that I am willing to give Rory a pass. If Reed has the same record as Rory, I would give him a pass also but he quite clearly does not.

That’s the beauty of the rulebook.. impartial to opinion. They both get a pass because they followed the rules. I understand where you’re coming from though. Reed made a hard bed. Now he’s gotta lie in it.. My opinion.. I’m not so sure about certain accusations.. that’s just me though.. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by sevenputts
Forgot something

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Was there ever any question that the ball was Reed’s? I am not sure that there was. If there was, once he has identified it, he should have put it back until the  official arrived.

Ball in deep grass. Could be anyone’s.  Could be from last month.  
 

what part of the rules tell you to put it back and wait for an official ?  Truth is he didn’t need an official.  He could have called it just like Rory did.  And been fine.  

[Hawkeye77]

43 minutes ago, soregongolfer said:

The ball was not embedded.  You don't get a free drop there.  A rule was broken.  The difference is you're taking his word that the ball was imbedded.  I'm not.  

No, it was Brad Fabel's ruling that you go by.  

 

Reasonable assumption ball didn't bounce based on observations.  Notify FCs. Call for official.  Ruling.  Move on. The rest = allegations based on assumptions he was fiddling about and making a little indentation.  He probably got a lucky break and the ball was likely sitting in something that wasn't the ball's pitch mark, but doesn't matter, and maybe it was, no way to know for sure, but whatever it was in met the definition of embedded in the rules per the official.

 

But no evidence of cheating and no rule broken per eyewitness accounts, video and . . . . official's ruling.  

 

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

13 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

No disagreements that they did the same thing but what I am saying is that I am willing to give Rory a pass. If Reed has the same record as Rory, I would give him a pass also but he quite clearly does not.

Respectfully then I have to say that opinion is the real issue. It’s biased and it’s  human nature.  But when we recognize our own bias we have to then call ourselves out on it.  

Edited February 1, 2021 by bladehunter