Why is the Vokey F grind "the most played sand wedge on tour"?

[cw1209]

Couldn't help but notice a Vokey F grind sand wedge (56.14F) won today. Nice win for Max Homa. Every other grind seems to add more versatility compared to the "simple" F grind. Some will be tempted to say "bounce is your friend" and the Vokey F grind sand wedge (54* or 56*) has the most bounce at 14*. Maybe it is that simple. At the same time, if you pick up a D (12*) or S (10*) grind and set them on the ground to compare it to a F grind, the leading edge of the F grind sits as close (or closer) to the ground than D or S. I get that not having any trailing edge relief adds to total effective bounce. My understanding is that trailing edge relief 1) helps keep the leading edge close to the ground when opening the face and 2) provides less resistance through the ground. Is there a situation where trailing edge relief is counter productive? I have played the M,S, and D grind for my sand wedge, but never F. Didn't seem to provide any advantage over the other grinds?

Edited February 22, 2021 by cw1209

[BostonWRX]

3 minutes ago, cw1209 said:

Couldn't help but notice a Vokey F grind sand wedge won today. Nice win for Max Homa. Every other grind seems to add more versatility compared to the "simple" F grind. Some will be tempted to say "bounce is your friend" and the Vokey F grind sand wedge has the most bounce at 14*. Maybe it is that simple. At the same time, if you pick up a D (12*) or S (10*) grind and set them on the ground to compare it to a F grind, the leading edge of the F grind sits as close (or closer) to the ground than D or S. I get that not having any trailing edge relief adds to total effective bounce. My understanding is that trailing edge relief 1) helps keep the leading edge close to the ground when opening the face and 2) provides less resistance through the ground. Is there a situation where trailing edge relief is counter productive? I have played the M,S, and D grind for my sand wedge, but never F. Didn't seem to provide any advantage over the other grinds?

Pretty sure vokey Pw and GW are only offered in F grind so that’s why it is the most played. Can’t get a 60/F

[cw1209]

1 minute ago, TrueWRX said:

Pretty sure vokey Pw and GW are only offered in F grind so that’s why it is the most played. Can’t get a 60/F

 

Right, no choice when it comes to the PW and GW (46-52*). My question has to do with the choice of grind at 54* or 56*. 

[North Butte]

I think the Vokey tour van guys can start from an F-grind and then customize it just about any way the player wants. So it's possible that many of the F-grind sand wedges on tour start out "Full" but then have a specific type of trailing edge, heel or toe grind treatment that the player prefers over the grinds that make us the S or M or D. 

 

Alternatively, even though I'm as far from a Tour player as you'll ever see I find that F-grind wedges are just about the best wedges around for full-swing approach shots and they also work better for me out the sand than any other Vokey grind I've tried (including the K). So maybe a lot of Tour players place a large priority on full-swing performance in their SW. I'm just speculating, of course.

 

The downside of an F-grind out of heavy or wet sand or out of very thick rough is you need a LOT of strength and clubhead speed to really zip the club under ball with the face opened up and that heavy trailing-edge engaged. I struggle with that a lot but I doubt it matters much to most tour players who are really strong with more than ample clubhead speed.

[counselor79]

I also play a 56* f grind, it is versatile in chipping, sand play, and full swing. You’re not going to open it up and hit floating flop shots but you can hit most chips and pitches without issue. 
 

I find the key is having a versatile lob wedge as an emergency out club as opposed to that being my 56. I also have found I use my 56 for most green side shots and limited my 60 to when I need it once making the switch. The f will do most of what you want/need with a little technique and touch. 
 

Personally I’ve found myself and I think others too get wrapped around the axle of which grinds to play. I used to have different grinds for each wedge and they all played different. I now have a f grind in sand and gap wedge, low bounce k in lob and I have a much easier time picking what wedge for a given shot based on what I need to do with the club. All in all, I think it’s worth trying if you’re looking, may not be for everyone but it’s more versatile than folks think. 

[TimBuma]

I agree it does surprise me that the F grind is the most played SW on tour for vokey. But like North Butte said above I’m assuming most of those guys are having custom grinds with that F grind. I’ve been primarily an S grind in my 54 but curious about the F and maybe adding trail edge relief to it. 

[cw1209]

4 hours ago, counselor79 said:

I used to have different grinds for each wedge and they all played different. I now have a f grind in sand and gap wedge, low bounce k in lob and I have a much easier time picking what wedge for a given shot based on what I need to do with the club. All in all, I think it’s worth trying if you’re looking, may not be for everyone but it’s more versatile than folks think. 

 

This makes sense to me and really what I had been thinking from the beginning. Most players don't need a complex wedge grind. Picking a F grind sand wedge keeps things simple. Can't play "different parts of the bounce" with a F grind. A more basic grind may also help keep the mechanics simple and the outcome more consistent.

 

The last part makes sense too. F grind is " more versatile than folks think". People are attracted to Vokey because its a great wedge, high level of use of tour, and options. With the number of options available its easy to get "wrapped around the axel" when trying to pick one. Just found it interesting that the best players in the world would gravitate towards one of the most basic grinds for a sand wedge. Might be something to try for my next set. 

[AC168]

I'm guessing a lot of the F grinds have tweaks that make them similar to a S or D grinds, but that you can't create what is wanted if you start with a S or D grind.

[SwingMan]

I wondered about that same claim because it did not make sense other than the lower lofted Vokeys.

 

But I had a Titleist grass/bunker wedge fitting 3 years ago and no one said anything about the F grind in 54-60.

 

So I think it's more than plausible that the tour van may begin with an F and grinds  it into whatever fits that Pro.

[North Butte]

12 minutes ago, SwingMan said:

But I had a Titleist grass/bunker wedge fitting 3 years ago and no one said anything about the F grind in 54-60.

Just one clarification. No F grind in 58 or 60. The 56.14F is the highest loft in that grind. 

[SwingMan]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

Just one clarification. No F grind in 58 or 60. The 56.14F is the highest loft in that grind. 

 

Thx. And that makes sense.

 

I can see them using the F Grind in the bunker. And everyone has a different short game. Maybe they don't open up around the green or or they do get a heel grind. It's all personal.

[gators78]

It was posted on here but one of the experts (Titleist/Sieckmann/other) recommended having a split set of high and low bounces, that would cover pretty much any situation as opposed to all high bounce (the big push over the past few years) or all low bounce.

 

If you go the split route the high bounce 56 and low bounce 60 seems to make the most sense...at least that's my guess why everyone on Tour goes that way. 

[ChipNRun]

On 2/21/2021 at 9:09 PM, cw1209 said:

Some will be tempted to say "bounce is your friend" and the Vokey F grind sand wedge (54* or 56*) has the most bounce at 14*. Maybe it is that simple. ... 

Back in 2016, I was fortunate enough to attend demo day at a major golf expo.

 

I had never player Vokey wedges, but was interested in the new SM6 design features. For some reason, when I showed up at the Vokey green area I was almost the only one there. I got a half hour of unobstructed quality time in Vokey-land.

 

I was mulling over SW options for my own bag at the time, but was leery of F grind because it was the "pro" grind. When I tried it, F grind worked out great... 54* and 56*, out of sand, light rough, greenside chip and run, even clip shots off hardpan. It just worked, don't know why.

 

The F grind was quite versatile, but a competitor had better overall feel.

 

Fast-forward to 2021. I'm wondering if 14 bounce, or even 12 bounce with wide sole, is the best SW for our area. More and more courses are going to mid-heavy to heavy bunker sand, and a big flange just seems to hang up too much on shots.

 

On 2/22/2021 at 5:30 AM, North Butte said:

The downside of an F-grind out of heavy or wet sand or out of very thick rough is you need a LOT of strength and clubhead speed to really zip the club under ball with the face opened up and that heavy trailing-edge engaged.

 

A couple of our local pros told me they have gone to what Callaway calls S-grind (mid bounce, narrower flange) because of heavier bunker sand.

 

Any bunker-sand swap outs in other areas? How consistent is sand weight, course to course, in your area?

Edited February 24, 2021 by ChipNRun

[rsballer10]

If you look at enough WITB's you will see a common setup like this:

 

Gap - F Grind by default

Sand - F/S Grind

Lob - M/L Grind

 

Some guys use M grind in the SW but it's not nearly as common as F/S grind. Most players only get heel/toe relief on the Lob wedge. I imagine the theory behind that is you don't need heel relief to hit a slightly open faced shot, the extra bounce even adds a little forgiveness.

 

However, to hit a full blown flop shot the relief definitely helps. There's no reason to hit a flop shot with a sand wedge, when a lob wedge with a squarer face could do the same thing with less risk.

 

My personal experience playing a F/M/L setup in my wedges was that the sand wedge and lob wedge performed the same function for me. 

[rugbydave]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:30 AM, North Butte said:

I think the Vokey tour van guys can start from an F-grind and then customize it just about any way the player wants. So it's possible that many of the F-grind sand wedges on tour start out "Full" but then have a specific type of trailing edge, heel or toe grind treatment that the player prefers over the grinds that make us the S or M or D. 

 

Alternatively, even though I'm as far from a Tour player as you'll ever see I find that F-grind wedges are just about the best wedges around for full-swing approach shots and they also work better for me out the sand than any other Vokey grind I've tried (including the K). So maybe a lot of Tour players place a large priority on full-swing performance in their SW. I'm just speculating, of course.

 

The downside of an F-grind out of heavy or wet sand or out of very thick rough is you need a LOT of strength and clubhead speed to really zip the club under ball with the face opened up and that heavy trailing-edge engaged. I struggle with that a lot but I doubt it matters much to most tour players who are really strong with more than ample clubhead speed.

100%!!!  Probably can only find a handful of tour players gaming a stock F grind.  

[B_of_H]

i've always used a full sole on my sw.  I play mostly in conditions on the soft side both turf and sand.  If its firm (desert golf etc...) then I have to be careful on some shots but that is very rare for me.  I don't see the need for a sw that has heel and toe relief here in the midwest.  Lob wedge is a different story.  the only time I open my sw is on fluffy lies or uphill shots out of the rough, love the bounce in that case. 

[bitt03]

Given the nature of the topic it made me curious, what is the most played 60 degree grind on tour?

[iNeedMoreGolf]

I like a s grind... which i think is f in vokey? I just like to use S52° for all around aproaching and chipping. I then have a pm grind 2.0 56° 14bounce... i cant still approach but with lesser swing... still chip around depending on lie... but sand with it is a life saver. Also 60° c grind cally forged wedge which is nice for situational golf but i barely use.

[Hawkeye77]

When I've had Vokeys, it was F in the 50 or 52 and S in the next two higher lofted from there - always thought my choices were a little bland, but they worked great for me (not like I had much choice with the F, lol).  I couldn't get along with the M or the big fat one - K? 

 

 

[blam89]

F grind is a total sleeper imo, esp for soft conditions. like others have said, much more versatile that it seems at face value. my 54f is my go to wedge for everything except shortside chips.

[kasting333]

I am now using a 56.14 and it is versatile. I use it out of the bunkers and on little flops all the time. More than my 60. 
 

I’ve had a 58 in the S grind and didn’t like it near as much as the 56.14 F 

Edited February 26, 2021 by kasting333

[North Butte]

6 hours ago, kasting333 said:

I am now using a 56.14 and it is versatile. I use it out of the bunkers and on little flops all the time. More than my 60. 
 

I’ve had a 58 in the S grind and didn’t like it near as much as the 56.14 F 

I like my 54.14F so much I got rid of my lower bounce LW and had a 56.14F bent to 58.16F!

 

I know I could get something similar with the 58.14K but on full swings there's just something feels funky about K-grind wedges (or at least it did last time I tried one back in the SM6 era). 

 

One thing I've discovered with my 58.16F during all the rain we've been having. Out of the seriously mucky, heavy, unpredictable bunkers after the rain I can square the face up and just swing down real hard right behind the ball. It'll splash a lot of mud but the ball actually comes out remarkably high from such a lie. 

[Myherobobhope]

55 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I like my 54.14F so much I got rid of my lower bounce LW and had a 56.14F bent to 58.16F!

 

I know I could get something similar with the 58.14K but on full swings there's just something feels funky about K-grind wedges (or at least it did last time I tried one back in the SM6 era). 

 

One thing I've discovered with my 58.16F during all the rain we've been having. Out of the seriously mucky, heavy, unpredictable bunkers after the rain I can square the face up and just swing down real hard right behind the ball. It'll splash a lot of mud but the ball actually comes out remarkably high from such a lie. 

Ha, I went the opposite direction with my new wedges... I had SM6 vokeys, both with higher bounce, and just replaced them with Sub70 wedges... my 54 remains high bounce and has a traditional grind, and my 58 is low bounce with heel and toe relief... It won't be particularly helpful in wet conditions, but will hopefully shine when the suns out. I like the versatility of playing two different amounts of bounce., or I think I do... I haven't played a round with my new setup.

 

As for why the most common grind on the most popular wedge is the most common setup on tour, I'd say it's simply a numbers game. 

[bnperrone]

On 2/24/2021 at 3:34 PM, gators78 said:

It was posted on here but one of the experts (Titleist/Sieckmann/other) recommended having a split set of high and low bounces, that would cover pretty much any situation as opposed to all high bounce (the big push over the past few years) or all low bounce.

 

If you go the split route the high bounce 56 and low bounce 60 seems to make the most sense...at least that's my guess why everyone on Tour goes that way. 

100% agree with this, and it is especially valid for golfers who aren't going to own or have access to an entire extra set (or two) of wedges.

 

Also, for those who see higher bounce on tour player wedges through the set, keep in mind that they're generally playing in perfect sand. I have worked at a course that has seen majors and I've watched the trucks hauling in tons and tons of sand to refresh all the areas the tour players may see. What I play as hardpack waste will be nice sand for them.

 

It's simple for pros to swap in a low bounce LW as the conditions dictate, but I keep a higher bounce SW and a low bounce familiar LW because it covers every scenario I may reasonably encounter on any given day.

[harlequine]

I am only playing a sw and looking for a knew one. Vokey 56/14F or 58/14K are the ones i think of right know. What grind of these are most versatile? 

[rsballer10]

On 2/27/2021 at 4:27 AM, harlequine said:

I am only playing a sw and looking for a knew one. Vokey 56/14F or 58/14K are the ones i think of right know. What grind of these are most versatile? 

Not to be nit-picky but the 58/14K is actually a lob wedge - I think every OEM basically stops sand wedges at 56. If you play a 3 wedge system, including the set PW your highest lofted wedge needs to be a "jack of all trades".

 

You could get away with the 56/14F, you should definitely try the 56/12D. This will give you a lot of the F grind forgiveness with some heel-toe relief on the sole. This will allow you to hit open face shots easier. The D grind will add a little extra versatility.

[B_of_H]

Here is where I would theoretically break it down.  

 

Links golf: low bounce throughout the set and heel toe relief.  GW: 8F, SW: 8m/6K, lw: 4L/8m etc...

Bermuda/Bent/Rye (florida to upper east coast, desert golf), mostly firm and dry but there are periods where you need some bounce: combination of med/low. GW: 8F, SW: 8m/10s/14f, LW: 4L, 8m

Zoysia and Bent combos (midwest): whatever floats your boat but more bounce is needed on a lot of shots. specifically in the spring when its mush a lot of the time. My m grind 60 sometimes is just too dicey to use on soupy bent grass around the greens for instance.  its just safer to use my sw to ensure it doesn't dig even when I want to use the 60.  not a big deal if it is that soft and wet to go down a club. 

 

[Jack Pearsall]

sm7 56M08 for everything. pretty versatile, and you can nip the ball. Use a sm7 52F for gap sometimes but trying the set gap for awhile.

when bigger bounces are the deal, like rain, wet and real fluffy sand a mizuno t7 52&58*. 

[shot-savior]

I think the 56/14 is the "go to" sand wedge because its full sole has more surface area to push sand, but with its relatively narrow sole is has less "effective bounce" which gives it ground interaction versatility.

 

A thin sole equates well to low effective bounce and a wide sole equates well to high effective bounce.

 

 

 

[Judge Smails]

Reviving this from the depths as someone who just snagged a tour issue 56 F.  

 

I've been having so much success with my 50 F on a variety of shots (and 60s lob) but just haven't dialed in the sand wedge slot.  I had borrowed a friends bag last year and it had a 58D in it. Used it all day with great success.  So, first I bought a 58D which has yet to arrive.  However, after realizing I am so solid with the 50 F and seeing the surprising number of players on tour who rock the F in 54 or 56 I couldn't resist an over-priced tour issue SM7 56F on the bay!  My primary thought in pulling the trigger is that I never ever ever open up the face on my 54-56 wedge.  I almost exclusively use it for pitches and chips in the 60-20 yard range. 

 

Will report back once I've put the wedge through the paces...

Edited September 4, 2022 by Judge Smails