Has anyone switched from blade type irons to GI (game improvement) irons?

[hahanice]

I went from Titleist 620mb to srixon zx7. No difference at all. A bad shot with either is a bad shot. I like the srixons more because at least when I have a bad day I can't say "I wonder what would have happened if I weren't playing blades." But my scores haven't improved. I don't think the clubs make any difference, but the confidence factor is real

 

For reference I got to a +2 with blades, but was playing every day. I'm now a 1-2 playing once a week with zx7. 

 

Play what you like. I throw my Nike original ones in from time to time and see no drop in scores

 

 

[chipa]

I have played blades off and on even though I'm not that good of a golfer and a high single digit hc at my best when I played a lot.

 

However, I generally end up going to a small c.b. as they are more forgiving. I have tried typical GI irons, big ones and medium sized and hit them worse than blades. The very big heads with a lot offset I can barely get them off the ground. 

 

I will admit that as I have gotten older that the smaller long irons are harder for me to hit consistently even though before they were my favorite clubs. However, I have started using a 7 wood and am going to try a 4 hybrid to replace my 4 iron.

 

I feel most people with a decent swing could actually play small cb from 7 on down w/o seeing much of a difference.

[RoyalMustang]

19 minutes ago, chipa said:

I have played blades off and on even though I'm not that good of a golfer and a high single digit hc at my best when I played a lot.

 

However, I generally end up going to a small c.b. as they are more forgiving. I have tried typical GI irons, big ones and medium sized and hit them worse than blades. The very big heads with a lot offset I can barely get them off the ground. 

 

I will admit that as I have gotten older that the smaller long irons are harder for me to hit consistently even though before they were my favorite clubs. However, I have started using a 7 wood and am going to try a 4 hybrid to replace my 4 iron.

 

I feel most people with a decent swing could actually play small cb from 7 on down w/o seeing much of a difference.

 

Yep, that is me as well.  GI and SGI irons are a lot more "variable", especially when I am not swinging well.  I get more feedback from a CB and can at least somewhat analyze what is going wrong.  There is just something about the weighting and feel that works.  

[Nard_S]

On 10/17/2021 at 9:05 PM, playit said:

.. with blades, if you don't hit the sweetspot, you can end up in the front bunker or water guarding the green... with GI irons, it can save that penalty. (I have never played GI irons.)

There's a simple solution to this. Add a 1/2 club to every approach shot where miss short hurts. Go pure your 15-20 feet past, slight miss dead on, bad miss front of green.

 

Every week, play a 190 yard Par 3, water everywhere around it,  play it to back 1/3 of green, never wet.

[RoyalMustang]

8 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

There's a simple solution to this. Add a 1/2 club to every approach shot where miss short hurts. Go pure your 15-20 feet past, slight miss dead on, bad miss front of green.

 

Every week, play a 190 yard Par 3, water everywhere around it,  play it to back 1/3 of green, never wet.

 

The other issue with GI or SGI clubs is that if you pure it and you have water beyond the green, watch out!  A good strike with my CB 7-iron is around 174 and a complete flush is 180.  I was playing around with a GI iron on a monitor and my good strike was 178, but my flush was 192-194.  Heck, I saw a few just under 200 yards.

 

I played with GI irons for awhile (definition is something like a 718 AP3 or ZX5) and didn't see any decrease in scores, so I keep going back to my CB  

[lefthack]

37 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

There's a simple solution to this. Add a 1/2 club to every approach shot where miss short hurts. Go pure your 15-20 feet past, slight miss dead on, bad miss front of green.

 

Every week, play a 190 yard Par 3, water everywhere around it,  play it to back 1/3 of green, never wet.

 

Looking at the lofts of the Takomo 101's, I'm basically a club up. So my PW is now my 9 iron in my blades, so I hope that works. 🤣

[bryanwmilburn]

My mindset has changed on this. To me it comes down to understanding what of 2 things is most valuable to you. 1) Shooting the lowest score possible every time you play, or 2) Just getting out to enjoy the game of golf. If your goal is to shoot the lowest score possible, it makes sense to use something that is more helpful on off days so your misses are "better". If your goal is to just enjoy the game of golf (like mine is now) - I just want to play something I enjoy hitting and buy from companies I like supporting (i.e. DTC companies like New Level, Sub70, Snell, Vice, etc.) Sometimes to people that means playing blades for that butter feeling when you strike it perfect or when you have a great ball striking day, and the value of customer service and personal interaction with owners like Eric from New Level is much more valuable to me than buying from a big company with crappy customer service for marginal (if any) performance gains. Play what you fit into and if your optimal setup for low score happens to align with what gives you the most enjoyment, it's a win-win!

Edited October 19, 2021 by bryanwmilburn

[ShowMe]

16 hours ago, dreid65 said:

I am a 4 index, 56 years old and have watched the steady decline in distance in both irons and woods over the years.  I have tried to switch 3 times (at least), and I always come back to blades.  I have played P790, Callaway Rogue, Callaway X20...I mean really made an attempt, but I keep coming back to players irons, titleist CB's were really good, and I now play a 6 year old set of Nike Vapor Pro combo.  I think the nikes are the best combination of a little forgiving but still consistent in distance, ball flight and spin.  In the end, the taylor mades were so hot, and just had too much variability in shot distance.  If I really caught a shot crisp, it would seem to fly forever.  In the end, it is the problem with game improvement.  if your swing speed is too high for the design, you can really catch some flat no spin flyers...and they just kill a decent round.

 

I am still looking for the magic bullet..a really solid iron with good ball speeds across the face, and very consistent distances across the face.  For me, nothing compares to a cavity back blade or muscle back blade for consistency...and I just accept that I hit them shorter.  wish i didnt, but i just cant swing hard enough anymore.  With the nikes, I hit 7 iron about 165...if i am loose and swinging well at end of round, 5 yards more is max.  I would really like to use a good game improvement, but that distance can jump to 180 average...and then you will catch a bullet train that goes 205...it is so hard to play with those weird jumpers.

 

 

Not sure why a high swing speed means that you will catch a flat no spin flyer vs. a lower swing speed, but I've never experienced this magical flyer effect that so many attribute to GI irons.  My swing speed with a 7i is 88 mph...not super high, but not low either.

 

What I have experienced is that if I don't hit the ball in the center of the clubface, the GI iron does a much better job of maintaining ball speed versus a blade or a "players" iron.  A blade or player's iron will cost me 10-30 yds. of distance on a non-center hit, while the GI only costs me 5-15 yds.  And since I miss the center of the clubface more often than I hit it, the GI iron ends up working best for me.  Plus, I can bend and flight my shots just as easily with the GI as I can with a blade.  Sure, I might have to close or open the clubface a little more, or play the ball a little further back in my stance to do this vs. a blade, but it can be done.

[RoyalMustang]

1 hour ago, bryanwmilburn said:

My mindset has changed on this. To me it comes down to understanding what of 2 things is most valuable to you. 1) Shooting the lowest score possible every time you play, or 2) Just getting out to enjoy the game of golf. If your goal is to shoot the lowest score possible, it makes sense to use something that is more helpful on off days so your misses are "better". If your goal is to just enjoy the game of golf (like mine is now) - I just want to play something I enjoy hitting and buy from companies I like supporting (i.e. DTC companies like New Level, Sub70, Snell, Vice, etc.) Sometimes to people that means playing blades for that butter feeling when you strike it perfect or when you have a great ball striking day, and the value of customer service and personal interaction with owners like Eric from New Level is much more valuable to me than buying from a big company with crappy customer service for marginal (if any) performance gains. Play what you fit into and if your optimal setup for low score happens to align with what gives you the most enjoyment, it's a win-win!

 

Good point.  A score is just a number and is context dependent.  The feeling of a flushed forged CB 4-iron is essentially an endorphin rush. 

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, bryanwmilburn said:

If your goal is to shoot the lowest score possible, it makes sense to use something that is more helpful on off days so your misses are "better".

 

As it seems to me, using something more helpful on off days would theoretically improve your less good scores.  But it's not going to do anything to improve your good days.

 

 

[barnum1]

30 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

 

Not sure why a high swing speed means that you will catch a flat no spin flyer vs. a lower swing speed, but I've never experienced this magical flyer effect that so many attribute to GI irons.  My swing speed with a 7i is 88 mph...not super high, but not low either.

 

What I have experienced is that if I don't hit the ball in the center of the clubface, the GI iron does a much better job of maintaining ball speed versus a blade or a "players" iron.  A blade or player's iron will cost me 10-30 yds. of distance on a non-center hit, while the GI only costs me 5-15 yds.  And since I miss the center of the clubface more often than I hit it, the GI iron ends up working best for me.  Plus, I can bend and flight my shots just as easily with the GI as I can with a blade.  Sure, I might have to close or open the clubface a little more, or play the ball a little further back in my stance to do this vs. a blade, but it can be done.

I agree 100%. I switched to G425 irons this year, and I never experienced a "too hot" shot. 

And, my misses are much better. 

And, I can hit a fade or draw if I want to... 

Edited October 19, 2021 by barnum1

[tofur99]

1 hour ago, ShowMe said:

 

Not sure why a high swing speed means that you will catch a flat no spin flyer vs. a lower swing speed, but I've never experienced this magical flyer effect that so many attribute to GI irons.  My swing speed with a 7i is 88 mph...not super high, but not low either.

 

What I have experienced is that if I don't hit the ball in the center of the clubface, the GI iron does a much better job of maintaining ball speed versus a blade or a "players" iron.  A blade or player's iron will cost me 10-30 yds. of distance on a non-center hit, while the GI only costs me 5-15 yds.  And since I miss the center of the clubface more often than I hit it, the GI iron ends up working best for me.  Plus, I can bend and flight my shots just as easily with the GI as I can with a blade.  Sure, I might have to close or open the clubface a little more, or play the ball a little further back in my stance to do this vs. a blade, but it can be done.

 

I think it's more the people who swing a 7i over 100mph+ that run into it

[ShowMe]

5 minutes ago, tofur99 said:

 

I think it's more the people who swing a 7i over 100mph+ that run into it

 

Why would swing speed determine if you hit a flat no spin flyer.  Can't people with lower swing speeds hit flat no spin flyers, too?  Doesn't a higher swing speed impart more spin if you hit the ball on a descending angle, not less?

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, ShowMe said:

A blade or player's iron will cost me 10-30 yds. of distance on a non-center hit, while the GI only costs me 5-15 yds.

The real number between the two is 5-7 yards. If you play MB's & CB's for any extended length of time, that's the number. Crosfield came up with same number in a comparison 3 years ago. He started playing MB's after that.  This "15 yard difference" stuff is garbage. Might be 15 if one is DG X100 & the other is some 60g graphite noodle, but it's certainly not the head.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, ShowMe said:

 

Not sure why a high swing speed means that you will catch a flat no spin flyer vs. a lower swing speed, but I've never experienced this magical flyer effect that so many attribute to GI irons.  My swing speed with a 7i is 88 mph...not super high, but not low either.

 

Of course you haven't.

 

It doesn't exist (except in the user's mind). 👍

[EDT501]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Of course you haven't.

 

It doesn't exist (except in the user's mind). 👍

I agree and disagree here.

 

On the one hand, the idea that hollow face construction or perimeter weighting somehow gives rise to freak flyer shots because of "hot-spots" is bogus. There is nothing inherent in those designs that make them less consistent for all players. On the other hand, for some players the characteristics common in these type of GI and SGI clubs may cause them to be less consistent than muscle back or players cavity designs. 

 

For instance, I have a relatively neutral delivery that results in a ball flight that is relatively high with moderate spin. A higher CG, which is common to most muscle backs, works best for me because it results in less delivered loft and higher spin, both of which lead to greater consistency for me. GI and SGI designs tend to have a much lower CG to help increase launch and manage excess spin. Well struck, this isn't as issue as the angle of descent from the higher launch keeps the ball from rolling out. But my typical mishit is a groove or two high, resulting in an increase in launch and decrease in spin. On a blade, my launch conditions were optimal enough that this isn't that big of a deal. But with SGI's where my launch conditions were already lower spin, I may see it dip low enough that I get that flyer effect, similar to what one can experience out of the rough. 

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

Of course you haven't.

 

It doesn't exist (except in the user's mind). 👍

 

People didn't believe the coelacanth still existed either.  Or giant squid.

 

[nsxguy]

3 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

People didn't believe the coelacanth still existed either.  Or giant squid.

 

 

So (your) logic would dictate that since they exist the flyer does as well ? 🤦‍♀️

 

Got it. 👍

[nsxguy]

38 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

I agree and disagree here.

 

On the one hand, the idea that hollow face construction or perimeter weighting somehow gives rise to freak flyer shots because of "hot-spots" is bogus. There is nothing inherent in those designs that make them less consistent for all players. On the other hand, for some players the characteristics common in these type of GI and SGI clubs may cause them to be less consistent than muscle back or players cavity designs. 

 

For instance, I have a relatively neutral delivery that results in a ball flight that is relatively high with moderate spin. A higher CG, which is common to most muscle backs, works best for me because it results in less delivered loft and higher spin, both of which lead to greater consistency for me. GI and SGI designs tend to have a much lower CG to help increase launch and manage excess spin. Well struck, this isn't as issue as the angle of descent from the higher launch keeps the ball from rolling out. But my typical mishit is a groove or two high, resulting in an increase in launch and decrease in spin. On a blade, my launch conditions were optimal enough that this isn't that big of a deal. But with SGI's where my launch conditions were already lower spin, I may see it dip low enough that I get that flyer effect, similar to what one can experience out of the rough. 

 

The vast number of players willing to post and discuss the subject know what causes a flyer out of the rough. Grass getting between (or not) the club face and affecting the launch conditions.

 

So the myth of flyers we are talking about are sweet spot/flush strikes off the fairway. i.e. a "perfect" strike with NO grass between the ball and face.

 

I've neither seen nor read about any evidence of this being possible. The same center strike with the same environmental conditions, shaft lean, mph, AoA, etc. will fly the same distance +/- a very small distance difference.

 

Your (later) description is of a (slight) mishit. So pretty much by "definition" it isn't one of these mythical flyers.

 

I totally agree, and have seen myself, these high center strikes fly higher, spin less and go farther. That is, or should be, expected.

 

But your description is more relative to really fine tuning your equipment vis-a-vis getting the sweet spot exactly where you want it and giving at least some consideration to your most likely miss and what will happen when that miss occurs.

 

But I would expect your primary concern, being an elite player, would be your center strikes, not so much your mishits. I wouldn't think you'd accept a tradeoff of a better mishit at the expense of your perfect strikes.

 

And this would be typical of a terrific player playing blades. They just don't miss the SS very often so the added maneuverability of the blade works,,,,,,,,,, for them.

 

YOU are conscious of these small difference. Most of us don't have the time, $$$ or desire to dig that deep, nor the skill to know and appreciate the difference; hence, the mythical "20 yard flyer".

 

To my mind, when I see the 15-25 handicapper who plays blades because they're "more consistent and they don't get the unexpected flyers the GIs sometimes give them" is that they so seldom actually flush a shot that when they finally DO (with the GI) it goes so far they think it's a flyer.

 

 

[NRJyzr]

46 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

So (your) logic would dictate that since they exist the flyer does as well ? 🤦‍♀️

 

Got it. 👍

 

My logic...  a person whose opinions I respect, and is of significant ability, has reported experiencing that phenomenon.

 

He's posted about it here.

 

FWIW, I've never had it happen myself.  I've also never seen a coelacanth.

 

[michboomin]

Grew up playing my Dad's cut down Hogan Apex blades and then my brothers hand me down TP RAC MB blades throughout HS and College golf, obviously wasn't ideal but definitely taught me importance of hitting it pure. Play Apex Pro 21's now and love, don't plan on going back to blades because at the end of the day if you don't practice nearly every day and aren't playing on tournament style courses every week there's no need. Especially with the new "Player's Distance" category now, almost look like a blade and play like a deep cavity.

[nsxguy]

47 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

My logic...  a person whose opinions I respect, and is of significant ability, has reported experiencing that phenomenon.

 

He's posted about it here.

 

FWIW, I've never had it happen myself.  I've also never seen a coelacanth.

 

 

[chipa]

34 minutes ago, michboomin said:

Grew up playing my Dad's cut down Hogan Apex blades and then my brothers hand me down TP RAC MB blades throughout HS and College golf, obviously wasn't ideal but definitely taught me importance of hitting it pure. Play Apex Pro 21's now and love, don't plan on going back to blades because at the end of the day if you don't practice nearly every day and aren't playing on tournament style courses every week there's no need. Especially with the new "Player's Distance" category now, almost look like a blade and play like a deep cavity.

 

I don't understand the advantage of players distance for scoring. After all most golfers can use all the height and spin they get get to hold greens, especially guys with low clubhead speed. Most pros opt for higher lofts as well. 

 

I think it has to do more with marketing than anything else. I was once enamored of hitting my irons long but then I realized it didn't lower my hc. I have a nephew who is close to scratch and he plays distance irons in the winter and likes to tell me he hits his 8 iron 185. I remind having 15-17 yard gaps between clubs is not an advantage. I think if he went traditional lofts he would be a plus hc as he would have more birdie opportunities.

[dmeeksDC]

23 hours ago, dreid65 said:

I am a 4 index, 56 years old and have watched the steady decline in distance in both irons and woods over the years.  I have tried to switch 3 times (at least), and I always come back to blades.  I have played P790, Callaway Rogue, Callaway X20...I mean really made an attempt, but I keep coming back to players irons, titleist CB's were really good, and I now play a 6 year old set of Nike Vapor Pro combo.  I think the nikes are the best combination of a little forgiving but still consistent in distance, ball flight and spin.  In the end, the taylor mades were so hot, and just had too much variability in shot distance.  If I really caught a shot crisp, it would seem to fly forever.  In the end, it is the problem with game improvement.  if your swing speed is too high for the design, you can really catch some flat no spin flyers...and they just kill a decent round.

 

I am still looking for the magic bullet..a really solid iron with good ball speeds across the face, and very consistent distances across the face.  For me, nothing compares to a cavity back blade or muscle back blade for consistency...and I just accept that I hit them shorter.  wish i didnt, but i just cant swing hard enough anymore.  With the nikes, I hit 7 iron about 165...if i am loose and swinging well at end of round, 5 yards more is max.  I would really like to use a good game improvement, but that distance can jump to 180 average...and then you will catch a bullet train that goes 205...it is so hard to play with those weird jumpers.

 

Those Nike VPCs are great irons. Your description is spot on. Very playable. Just the right blade size, offset and overall look. The newer iron I have found similar to them is the ‘21 Callaway X Forged CB. Similar look with maybe a slightly more narrow sole. But that seems to be the category of irons that I play best with. 

[ShowMe]

6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

The real number between the two is 5-7 yards. If you play MB's & CB's for any extended length of time, that's the number. Crosfield came up with same number in a comparison 3 years ago. He started playing MB's after that.  This "15 yard difference" stuff is garbage. Might be 15 if one is DG X100 & the other is some 60g graphite noodle, but it's certainly not the head.

 

Well, maybe for Crossfield it's only 5-7 yards, but for me it's a 5-15 yard difference using the same shaft (SF i95s), blade vs. GI.

[michboomin]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I don't understand the advantage of players distance for scoring. After all most golfers can use all the height and spin they get get to hold greens, especially guys with low clubhead speed. Most pros opt for higher lofts as well. 

 

I think it has to do more with marketing than anything else. I was once enamored of hitting my irons long but then I realized it didn't lower my hc. I have a nephew who is close to scratch and he plays distance irons in the winter and likes to tell me he hits his 8 iron 185. I remind having 15-17 yard gaps between clubs is not an advantage. I think if he went traditional lofts he would be a plus hc as he would have more birdie opportunities.

I agree with everything you said, and oh man is the marketing working. I’m a fitter and everyone and their mother wants to try the P790’s or the 770’s but as you mentioned the spin and height get too low for most people, and these same people are looking at the total number with these irons instead of their carry, and are happy with the distance but are oblivious to spin and control. I mentioned “player’s distance” as a reference point, I think my Apex Pro’s are categorized as that but are night and day from a 770 let alone a 790 in terms of feel, spin, workability, but my 7i spins 7500 with a kbs $taper 130 so that works for me. Also, i’d compare the new T200’s to a “players distance” and the spin on those are definitely manageable

[R5Two]

Personal opinion, don't do it. If you just don't play enough, it may be worth it just to have more fun, less feedback on bad ones. The one thing you will hear is distance consistency. I went from P7TW to ZX7 and while the ZX7 are incredible irons every once in a while I get a 5 yard jumper (mostly flyer lies, but some from tight lies too). I miss my blades.... yes your bad days won't be as bad, but you good days aren't as great either. My handicap has stayed at a 2.1 through 17 rounds with zx7s. 

 

Turf interaction is also much better with blades, especially for steeper swingers. 

[bryanwmilburn]

15 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

As it seems to me, using something more helpful on off days would theoretically improve your less good scores.  But it's not going to do anything to improve your good days.

 

 

Correct. Exactly my point. If your goal is to shoot your best score every time, and not necessarily just go out to enjoy the game and play clubs you have fun playing, GI type irons might be best for you bc we all have off days. I’ve learned to just scrape it around and get up and down on those days lol

[jomatty]

10 hours ago, chipa said:

 

I don't understand the advantage of players distance for scoring. After all most golfers can use all the height and spin they get get to hold greens, especially guys with low clubhead speed. Most pros opt for higher lofts as well. 

 

I think it has to do more with marketing than anything else. I was once enamored of hitting my irons long but then I realized it didn't lower my hc. I have a nephew who is close to scratch and he plays distance irons in the winter and likes to tell me he hits his 8 iron 185. I remind having 15-17 yard gaps between clubs is not an advantage. I think if he went traditional lofts he would be a plus hc as he would have more birdie opportunities.

I think the advantage is that you can often hit it just as high with something like the t100s as you can with the t100.  At least a lot of players will experience this with higher ball speeds.  This may not appeal to higher swing speed players but for some of us regular Joe’s it can be an advantage and not cause any gapping issues.

[Nels55]

Well, when I started golfing there were no cavity backs.  I was very happy to switch to game improvement type clubs when they became available because they made the game a bit more playable.  I have tried blade clubs a couple of times since then but could not really hit them very well.  My shot pattern is fairly large and I miss hit a lot of shots so the game improvement clubs seem to be a better option for me.