LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, notsohard said:

Oh deary me......... 

 

 

 

I lived in the US for 9 years. I got a very good understanding of their thinking patterns, especially sport and politics. 

You are wasting your time. The World Series of everything is in the USA. 

They have no idea what will happen if Yasir unleashes the billions...play money.

Well there ya go folks!  The man lived here for 9 years so certainly knows more than us natives what exactly we desire.🤣

 

And Yasir can spend the whole PIF fund and not get interest….but he might just destroy a sport.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

12 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Well there ya go folks!  The man lived here for 9 years so certainly knows more than us natives what exactly we desire.🤣

 

And Yasir can spend the whole PIF fund and not get interest….but he might just destroy a sport.

 

There's yet another reason why flaccid has long been on my ignore list😁

While I share your concern that SA could destroy a sport, it's becoming more and more apparent that each new mercenary recruit is not moving the needle in the golf world other than controversy.  It's not drawing more eyes on their product. 

Edited March 21 by BlackDiamondPar5

[ahenderX]

2 hours ago, tomjas said:

How is LIV trying to kill the PGAT when most of its tournaments are outside the US?

Poaching Tour players at unrealistic prices?

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, ahenderX said:

Poaching Tour players at unrealistic prices?

Yep, and of course it was and has been a stated goal, lol. Just toned that part down a bit lately.

[CDM]

18 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 It's worth the confidence a buyer has in it to be worth something at a future time.

 

True statement...

 

Sorry I forgot who but someone noted rolex watches Vs clones. Rolex are bought simpley based on "market" price and future.  Buy from a dealer and a Daytona is 16K w/tax.   Open market they run 25K and up.   

 

Are they worth what the asking prices are...?  That is all subject to the buyer and confidnece....! 

Edited March 21 by CDM

[Pops99]

3 hours ago, tomjas said:

You’re missing the point with Jeddah

 

It’s a tourism ad for Saudi in exactly the same way as the Race to Dubai is a tourism ad for Dubai

 

You think that Sheikh Mo is a golf fan? 😂

 

LIV Adelaide generated $70 million in economic benefits for South Australia and 43,000 extra room nights for its hospitality industry and they’re paying them to come back

Imagine joining a forum just to ride for a dictatorship's attempted takeover of pro golf. Weird flex, bro. 

[Dutch1008]

3 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

Poaching Tour players at unrealistic prices?

 

They also began scheduling events opposite key PGAT events. 

 

LIV Mayakoba shared the weekend w/ newly elevated Pebble Beach

 

LIV Las Vegas shared the weekend w/ the Waste Mgmt

 

LIV Hong Kong vs the Arnold Palmer

 

LIV Houston vs Memorial

 

LIV Nashville vs Travelers

 

LIV Andalucia vs the Scottish (Attacking both the PGAT and DPWT)

 

LIV Greenbrier vs Fed Ex St Jude

 

Remember all that talk about co-existing, how LIV was meant to be additive to the tour not directly compete? It's one thing to schedule events opposite the Zurich, Rocket Mtg, 3M, Etc, it's quite another thing to specifically target signature events, co-sanctioned events, and playoff events. 

[CDM]

17 hours ago, subrew said:

 

I've seen a fair bit of YT golf from JCB, and it looks like a great course.  The Par 3 17th should be a fun watch:

 

 

 

It is a great course actually. 

 

The one thing that LIV has different that I find interesting is, they dont seem to be playing the same courses every year.   They seem to be moving it around (for the most part)  to new courses so it is interesting to see how players do on a course they have never played prior. 

 

LIV you get a practice round or two that you have never seen, probalby never heard of 🤣 and it is go time.   

 

On the PGAT, and fully understandable they play the same courses each year for each event.  Players know these courses like there home course.  Again there is a reason they do this, but you see the "horses for courses" aspects.  That certain PGAT players, they play the courses they know they will do well on and skip the ones they know are not suited to thier game. 

 

[bekgolf]

2 hours ago, tomjas said:

The ratings were very good here 

 

I've been saying that Liv would have a better chance in Australasia than anywhere else.  I think it's wanted there but Liv wants more fans than the region can deliver.

 

It's a shame too, they could build the tour with local talent and let it grow in popularity and in interest from abroad.  The time spent building a following would help to shape what Liv is by figuring out what works and what doesn't on a smaller scale.

 

The way Liv has been implemented makes no sense.  It feels like someone who is used to being in charge is saying "here is your new golf, now tell me how wonderful I am". 

 

There is no sense that maybe it's a bad idea as is and nobody in the chain of command will tell the supreme power it's a bad idea.

[CDM]

58 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

….but he might just destroy a sport.

 

ON POINT

 

If we are all being honest and not the back forth in these threads the the numbers are already showing the demise. 

 

Which begs the question, why would anyone fight an endless battle to eleminate ones own existance?  

 

History as shown us, in any battle (per se) at some point everyone releaizes the "causalties" are far to great and you have to find a way to end it, regardless of how it started.  *causalties = fans in this case

Edited March 21 by CDM

[MaineMariner]

Trying to sell LIV and the PIF as focused on "growing the global game" is tough because... well, it wasn't sold as that in 2022. It's revisionist history to pretend otherwise. Here's the first official LIV press conference with Louis Oosthuizen, Dustin Johnson, Graeme McDowell, and TK Chantananuwat. Each of them is asked "Why LIV? What attracted you to LIV Golf?" starting at about 1:30. None of them mentioned a word about an interest in expanding the global reach of the game. 

 

 

We're not stupid. Go back to any other player's comments after joining LIV and you'll see answers along a similar line... up until about a year ago, when it was clear that LIV was losing in the court of public opinion. It's clear to everyone that LIV was intended as a super league of the best and brightest playing limited field, limited round events for huge cash prizes. That hasn't really panned out or captured the public's attention, so now LIV has pivoted to the "growing the game" and "global golf" PR spin. Because who amongst us is opposed to growing the game of golf? 

 

Again, we're not dumb. It's PR spin.

[CDM]

Sign of the times?

 

 

[wedgegame]

3 hours ago, tomjas said:

Cool

 

Shut down investment in professional golf because the target market will be dead in a few years 

 

Btw, why has LIV just signed a deal with a promoter to stage rock concerts at their events if they’re targeting 65yos?

They also paid someone to stage a flash mob on one of their tee boxes.  What about that tells you they understand their target market?

[Titleist99]

15 minutes ago, MaineMariner said:

Trying to sell LIV and the PIF as focused on "growing the global game" is tough because... well, it wasn't sold as that in 2022. It's revisionist history to pretend otherwise. Here's the first official LIV press conference with Louis Oosthuizen, Dustin Johnson, Graeme McDowell, and TK Chantananuwat. Each of them is asked "Why LIV? What attracted you to LIV Golf?" starting at about 1:30. None of them mentioned a word about an interest in expanding the global reach of the game. 

 

 

We're not stupid. Go back to any other player's comments after joining LIV and you'll see answers along a similar line... up until about a year ago, when it was clear that LIV was losing in the court of public opinion. It's clear to everyone that LIV was intended as a super league of the best and brightest playing limited field, limited round events for huge cash prizes. That hasn't really panned out or captured the public's attention, so now LIV has pivoted to the "growing the game" and "global golf" PR spin. Because who amongst us is opposed to growing the game of golf? 

 

Again, we're not dumb. It's PR spin.

100%. It was also touted as the future of golf (teams).  No one was asking for team golf to my knowledge and at that point, Greg and Phil started trashing the PGAT. Lawsuits and entitlements regarding OWGR points pursued.

 

Yep, their branding has changed many times during their short tenure.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Yep, and of course it was and has been a stated goal, lol. Just toned that part down a bit lately.

Depends on who’s talking …Yasir just wants in…Greg?

 

1 hour ago, CDM said:

 

It is a great course actually. 

 

The one thing that LIV has different that I find interesting is, they dont seem to be playing the same courses every year.   They seem to be moving it around (for the most part)  to new courses so it is interesting to see how players do on a course they have never played prior. 

 

LIV you get a practice round or two that you have never seen, probalby never heard of 🤣 and it is go time.   

 

On the PGAT, and fully understandable they play the same courses each year for each event.  Players know these courses like there home course.  Again there is a reason they do this, but you see the "horses for courses" aspects.  That certain PGAT players, they play the courses they know they will do well on and skip the ones they know are not suited to thier game. 

 

Are they moving around by choice or does no one want them back?

 

Asking for a friend.😉

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, CDM said:

It is a great course actually. 

 

The one thing that LIV has different that I find interesting is, they dont seem to be playing the same courses every year.   They seem to be moving it around (for the most part)  to new courses so it is interesting to see how players do on a course they have never played prior. 

 

LIV you get a practice round or two that you have never seen, probalby never heard of 🤣 and it is go time.   

 

On the PGAT, and fully understandable they play the same courses each year for each event.  Players know these courses like there home course.  Again there is a reason they do this, but you see the "horses for courses" aspects.  That certain PGAT players, they play the courses they know they will do well on and skip the ones they know are not suited to thier game. 

 

 

Are you sure that's the plan? 

 

They've had repeat events at Doral, Bedminster, Centurion, Rich Harvest Farms, Greenbrier, Sentosa, The Grange, Mayakoba, Valderrama, and Jeddah. Seems to me they are trying to find anchor sites. Only 5 of the 12 scheduled events this year are new locations. 

 

I'll agree with you that I like seeing new places. I think there is some ideal blend of established tracks and new places. I think that goes for the PGAT or the various major rotas as well. That said, Orange County National, Las Vegas CC, and Mayakoba are KFT quality tracks at best. Hong Kong was something like 6,700 yds. I'm all for moving some events around and giving more fans the chance to see an event live, but you have to have a professional quality venue. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Honestly the PGAT repeats at courses because these tournaments have long-standing histories with specific courses. It's tradition.

 

LIV has no history or tradition. As Dutch mentions above they've had repeat events. It's possible that they're working to build those longer-term relationships and history of certain courses, or it's possible that those repeats have been a matter of convenience. Or it might be that for certain tournaments they'll return to specific courses and for other tournaments they'll experiment with a rota. I'm not sure anyone from LIV has ever stated why they're choosing courses. And if they're not around in 5 years, it'll be moot anyway...

[bscinstnct]

I’m not sure how tour events work exactly but 

 

One way to cooperate without doin a deal would be to have Aramco sponsor an event(s), put up the purses and an advertising commitment, then the pga tour benefits from the media rights

 

Top guys from both tours play and lots of people will watch

 

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

57 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Depends on who’s talking …Yasir just wants in…Greg?

LIV was the instrument and everything it’s done has been with Saudi planning and approval one way or another.  Damaging the Tour to make it less or to force a way in (both actually) has always been the goal. 
 

Edit: I think you are maybe just talking about the recently part. 

Edited March 21 by Hawkeye77

[Dutch1008]

7 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

I’m not sure how tour events work exactly but 

 

One way to cooperate without doin a deal would be to have Aramco sponsor an event(s), put up the purses and an advertising commitment, then the pga tour benefits from the media rights

 

Top guys from both tours play and lots of people will watch

 

Certainly possible but I don't think there will be any half measures. Would the PGAT or SSG want to give LIV a spotlight simply because ARAMCO hosts a single signature event? Conversely, would the PIF want to help the PGAT in any financial way when their only piece of leverage is threatening the tour w/ the size of their bank account?

[bekgolf]

31 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Top guys from both tours play and lots of people will watch

 

I doubt it. 

 

I'd also echo what Dutch said about why give them a spotlight?  It doesn't make sense for the PGA Tour to give Liv an on air presence while PGA players are on.

[TiScape]

Question for all the anti-LIV’ers. And I’m not here judging either side. But in my experience, when you truly don’t like/can’t stand someone or something, the best thing to do is to just ignore it. Why give it any of your energy if it’s not gonna truly change anything? Honest question as mostly ignoring it has been great for me. 

[bscinstnct]

21 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Certainly possible but I don't think there will be any half measures. Would the PGAT or SSG want to give LIV a spotlight simply because ARAMCO hosts a single signature event? Conversely, would the PIF want to help the PGAT in any financial way when their only piece of leverage is threatening the tour w/ the size of their bank account?

 

Well, supposedly, SSG/the tour are perfectly comfortable with taking a multibillion 💰 investment from PIF, cooperating and seeking synergy with LIV, and having ARum on the board

 

These are all well established facts, isn’t that right?

 

So, with the understanding that ARum is going to tell Jay and SSG to take a flying leap if there’s even a hint they want to “shut” down LIV

 

Where does that leave us?

 

The tour cannot maintain purse levels as ratings continue to decline as LIV keep signing their top players. 
 

You want to cooperate with PIF

 

Or just slowly go down the tubes of decreasing revenue and talent?

 

 

[bekgolf]

2 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Question for all the anti-LIV’ers. And I’m not here judging either side. But in my experience, when you truly don’t like/can’t stand someone or something, the best thing to do is to just ignore it. Why give it any of your energy if it’s not gonna truly change anything? Honest question as mostly ignoring it has been great for me. 

 

I derive immense enjoyment from PGA Tour golf and I don't want to see it go away.  Liv wants to change that.  I have a forum to express my displeasure with the whole thing which is much better than keeping it in, keeping quiet, and watching it happen.

[bekgolf]

3 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Well, supposedly, SSG/the tour are perfectly comfortable with taking a multibillion 💰 investment from PIF, cooperating and seeking synergy with LIV, and having ARum on the board

 

These are all well established facts, isn’t that right?

 

So, with the understanding that ARum is going to tell Jay and SSG to take a flying leap if there’s even a hint they want to “shut” down LIV

 

Where does that leave us?

 

The tour cannot maintain purse levels as ratings continue to decline as LIV keep signing their top players. 
 

You want to cooperate with PIF

 

Or just slowly go down the tubes of decreasing revenue and talent?

 

 

 

Giving in to the bully doesn't work. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Question for all the anti-LIV’ers. And I’m not here judging either side. But in my experience, when you truly don’t like/can’t stand someone or something, the best thing to do is to just ignore it. Why give it any of your energy if it’s not gonna truly change anything? Honest question as mostly ignoring it has been great for me. 

I'm anti-LIV in the sense that I think it's a solution to a non-problem and its existence dilutes the talent pool from the PGA Tour, which I enjoy watching. 

 

Beyond that, I do ignore LIV. Haven't watched it, and have no interest in watching it. By and large the format and the golf doesn't interest me, the limited schedule doesn't offer a chance to give a flow, and almost half the tournaments are on different continents. Given that I have other things (PGAT) to watch, LIV doesn't move that needle so I ignore it.  

 

I'm in this thread because I enjoy talking about interesting topics. The LIV situation, beyond its actual golf, has provided a decent number of interesting topics to talk about. 

[TiScape]

Just now, bekgolf said:

 

I derive immense enjoyment from PGA Tour golf and I don't want to see it go away.  Liv wants to change that.  I have a forum to express my displeasure with the whole thing which is much better than keeping it in, keeping quiet, and watching it happen.

And continually posting in this thread will help save the PGAT? Unfortunately not.
I get it and I made it clear initially how I felt. After a while it (to me anyway) feels like beating ur head against the wall. 

[kmbean]

Jon Rahm going to a competitor and constantly stating how much he misses working for his old employer.  Not sure why he doesn’t just shut it and enjoy his money, which seemed very important during his decision making process.

Edited March 21 by kmbean

[bscinstnct]

5 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Giving in to the bully doesn't work. 

 

If PIF goes and signs Homa, Aberg, Hovland next year, ratings and revenues just keep going south 

 

Eventually there’s a rush out the door. Rory, Hideki, Xander 

 

The tour could be up the proverbial creek with no paddle in 5 years 

 

It will still be around, but a shadow of what it was

[betarhoalphadelta]

8 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Well, supposedly, SSG/the tour are perfectly comfortable with taking a multibillion 💰 investment from PIF, cooperating and seeking synergy with LIV, and having ARum on the board

 

These are all well established facts, isn’t that right?

 

So, with the understanding that ARum is going to tell Jay and SSG to take a flying leap if there’s even a hint they want to “shut” down LIV

 

Where does that leave us?

 

The tour cannot maintain purse levels as ratings continue to decline as LIV keep signing their top players. 
 

You want to cooperate with PIF

 

Or just slowly go down the tubes of decreasing revenue and talent?

 

 

Every public statement made by either side in this negotiation should be taken with a grain of salt. 

 

If ARum had been publicly signaling that ending LIV is on the table, it gives his negotiating counterparties the idea that LIV isn't important to him, and that if they don't come to agreement that he might kill LIV on his own because it's not performing. If he makes it clear publicly that LIV is his baby and he intends to KEEP funding it and poaching players, then it creates a situation where his negotiating counterparties believe he's willing to be irrational longer than they can remain solvent, to borrow a phrase. 

 

Don't trust what they say. Much of it is just posturing. If they come to an agreement, and ARum believes it's in the new entity's interest to ditch LIV and fold those players back into the PGAT, he'll do it and not lose a wink of sleep.