LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[stinger_gc]

22 minutes ago, NetBogey said:

Liv golfers who are in the masters. Saw an interesting question on Facebook. How many liv golfers do you think top 10 at the masters? 
 

I see 8 having a very good chance of getting in the top ten.  With that said Id bet 4 liv golfers finish in the top 10:

 

DJ

Rahm

Smith

Joaco 

 

Charl’s winning it

[Titleist99]

6 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

Because the Majors are dependent on the OWGR for much of their field and the LIV players' OWGR rankings will wither and eventually make all of them ineligible.  

 

It's not as obvious now since guys like DJ, Koepka, Smith, Rahm, etc. all have exemptions from winning majors, but if this isn't resolved you could very easily have guys like Koepka and Rahm on the outside looking in in 5 years (which could happen anyway, to be fair) while the fields get filled with the latest edition of Peter Malnati.

 

Right now you absolutely have probably 6-7 guys who would not be getting invites who are getting in via winning in weak field events. 

You do know that the Masters can change their criteria any time they see fit, right!?!

 

The Masters have one of the most SA friendly criteria of the four majors. IMO

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, stinger_gc said:

Charl’s winning it

He may get the crystal for most hair everywhere! 

[King_Slender]

4 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

You do know that the Masters can change their criteria any time they see fit, right!?!

 

The Masters have one of the most SA friendly criteria of the four majors. IMO

 

Augusta is a member of the OWGR

[King_Slender]

4 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

A problem created by LIV. The solution lies with LIV, not with the rest of professional golf. 

 

The problem was created by Jay Monahan not listening to players who were trying to effect positive change (bigger purses, rights to their video).  Jay told them to pound sand. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

3 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

The problem was created by Jay Monahan not listening to players who were trying to effect positive change (bigger purses, rights to their video).  Jay told them to pound sand. 

That's a rewrite of history and reality. Not even remotely correct. 

Edited April 4 by BlackDiamondPar5

[notsohard]

14 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

A problem created by LIV. The solution lies with LIV, not with the rest of professional golf. 

 

lol...Jays your man. Let it all slide thinking it was never going to happen. Now you got Tiger and Co on the board dealing with Yasir, and that may not end well. 

[leezer99]

11 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

The problem was created by Jay Monahan not listening to players who were trying to effect positive change (bigger purses, rights to their video).  Jay told them to pound sand. 

 

Which again, proves how dumb the LIV defectors are since not a single sports league grants video or image rights to their players. And guess what... LIV doesn't grant them image or video rights either! 

 

The split in golf was caused by the greed of players like FIGJAM, Sergio, Westwood, etc. Please tell me how a guy like Rahm is worth $300m over a five year deal when the most expensive players in the MLB are getting that same amount spread out over 10+ years and they play 162 games per season versus the 42 rounds of golf LIV players play per season? Or how about Mahomes who is getting $450m over ten years in the worlds largest and most profitable league? 

[King_Slender]

4 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

Which again, proves how dumb the LIV defectors are since not a single sports league grants video or image rights to their players. And guess what... LIV doesn't grant them image or video rights either! 

 

The split in golf was caused by the greed of players like FIGJAM, Sergio, Westwood, etc. Please tell me how a guy like Rahm is worth $300m over a five year deal when the most expensive players in the MLB are getting that same amount spread out over 10+ years and they play 162 games per season versus the 42 rounds of golf LIV players play per season? Or how about Mahomes who is getting $450m over ten years in the worlds largest and most profitable league? 

 

How many sports leagues classify their players as "individual contractors"?  The PGA Tour treated their players like slaves begging for handouts and having to "prove" their worth to get paid when they would benefit off the top based on who would show up for tournaments.  

 

Rory, Rahm, Phil, Brooks and Tiger show up to a tournament and the ticket sales go through the roof, the PGA pockets the cash for that and if they miss the cut "Sorry, no pay this week."  Yes, there's a meritocracy to that setup, but we are in a far different media age than we were even 10-15 years ago.  I'm a huge Tiger fan, but his hypocrisy about LIV when he was pocketing $3M appearance fees and had $80-100M a year in off-course sponsorships is through the roof.  Did he play any less hard because the tournament money was pocket change?  No. 

 

As soon as LIV formed the PGA magically squeezed their partners for more money for elevated events.  

 

You are worth what somebody is willing to pay you, period.  I don't care that John Rahm is getting $300M from LIV any more than I care that Javy Baez is getting $22M a year to do nothing for the Detroit Tigers.  It's not my money. 

[scotee]

Bryson DeChambeau is complaining that fans are losing interest. I find that kind of rich. There has never been interest to any degree to the break away tour.  The LIV tour caused the rift. The LIV tour has the problem. Yes, this has bled over to the PGA Tour but the weak link is not the PGA Tour.  Open hostility born of a personal grudge and unlimited money fuels all of this.  All big talk, broken promises and not a care if the PGAT fails.

 

 https://www.outkick.com/sports/bryson-dechambeau-wants-pro-golf-to-come-together-but-conveniently-doesnt-want-to-take-on-responsibility

[RobS]

3 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

How many sports leagues classify their players as "individual contractors"?  The PGA Tour treated their players like slaves begging for handouts and having to "prove" their worth to get paid when they would benefit off the top based on who would show up for tournaments.  

 

Rory, Rahm, Phil, Brooks and Tiger show up to a tournament and the ticket sales go through the roof, the PGA pockets the cash for that and if they miss the cut "Sorry, no pay this week."  Yes, there's a meritocracy to that setup, but we are in a far different media age than we were even 10-15 years ago.  I'm a huge Tiger fan, but his hypocrisy about LIV when he was pocketing $3M appearance fees and had $80-100M a year in off-course sponsorships is through the roof.  Did he play any less hard because the tournament money was pocket change?  No. 

 

As soon as LIV formed the PGA magically squeezed their partners for more money for elevated events.  

 

You are worth what somebody is willing to pay you, period.  I don't care that John Rahm is getting $300M from LIV any more than I care that Javy Baez is getting $22M a year to do nothing for the Detroit Tigers.  It's not my money. 

I would guess that the individual sports competitors are independent contractors.  Pro tennis is probably most similar to pro golf and the pro tennis players are independent contractors.  A point of clarification, the PGA Tour doesn't 'pocket the cash' for ticket sales.  Ticket sale revenue goes to the designated charity or charities of each event.  I don't care either way if players get paid or not for missing the cut.  There's an argument for both sides of it although it's essentially been addressed on the PGA Tour with the $500k or whatever it was, advance.

 

It's a bit hyperbolic to say that the PGA treated players "like slaves".  Anyone playing on the Tour has an opportunity to make a lot of money.  Play well and you make money.  If you play poorly and don't make enough money to support yourself, you should probably look for a different job.  I can't say I have much sympathy for any professional athlete who isn't making as much money as they think they deserve.  There's a significant risk/reward for anyone trying to be a professional athlete and everyone know that going in to it.  All the money talk in pro golf, on all sides, is incredibly off putting.

[jdl]

4 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

How many sports leagues classify their players as "individual contractors"? 

Probably the ones made up of individual competitors and not team franchises?

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, scotee said:

Bryson DeChambeau is complaining that fans are losing interest. I find that kind of rich. There has never been interest to any degree to the break away tour.  The LIV tour caused the rift. The LIV tour has the problem. Yes, this has bled over to the PGA Tour but the weak link is not the PGA Tour.  Open hostility born of a personal grudge and unlimited money fuels all of this.  All big talk, broken promises and not a care if the PGAT fails.

 

 https://www.outkick.com/sports/bryson-dechambeau-wants-pro-golf-to-come-together-but-conveniently-doesnt-want-to-take-on-responsibility

Just another failed attempt to garner attention from the SA league. Trying to remain relevant.

[Cactus Jack]

5 hours ago, scotee said:

Bryson DeChambeau is complaining that fans are losing interest. I find that kind of rich. There has never been interest to any degree to the break away tour.  The LIV tour caused the rift. The LIV tour has the problem. Yes, this has bled over to the PGA Tour but the weak link is not the PGA Tour.  Open hostility born of a personal grudge and unlimited money fuels all of this.  All big talk, broken promises and not a care if the PGAT fails.

 

 https://www.outkick.com/sports/bryson-dechambeau-wants-pro-golf-to-come-together-but-conveniently-doesnt-want-to-take-on-responsibility

 

Both Bryson and Rory are talking about professional golf in general. LIV has not gained traction, the PGAT ratings have bombed, and their top players have been horrible. Personally, I couldn't care less what happens to either tour. They'll both get exactly what they deserve. 

 

Rory on 20% TV ratings drop: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2024/04/03/rory-mcilroy-panic-button-dwindling-pga-tour-tv-numbers-pretty-jarring/

 

PGAT players underperforming: https://golf.com/news/brandel-chamblee-blasts-stars-poor-form-masters/

[bcjim]

9 hours ago, King_Slender said:

 

How many sports leagues classify their players as "individual contractors"?  The PGA Tour treated their players like slaves begging for handouts and having to "prove" their worth.. 

Even accounting for hyperbole,  this is a ridiculous assertion.

 

Also, liv introduced handouts in golf. 

 

And for someone who doesn't care how much money guys get,  you're sure concerned about how much money guys were getting. 

[tomjas]

45 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Even accounting for hyperbole,  this is a ridiculous assertion.

 

Also, liv introduced handouts in golf. 

 

And for someone who doesn't care how much money guys get,  you're sure concerned about how much money guys were getting. 

PIP was around before LIV and is the very definition of a handout 

[idrive]

Professional golf is a broken product. PGA Tour television ratings are down, and fan interest on a week-to-week basis is rapidly dwindling. LIV Golf is primarily to blame.

The world's best golfers can't compete on the same stage outside of major championships because LIV poached dozens of them away from the PGA Tour with its endless buckets of Saudi cash. LIV has succeeded in its mission, but the rival league refuses to take accountability for creating this mess.

 

Bryson DeChambeau, who accepted a $125 million contract to join LIV, is now urging someone else to clean it up and reunite pro golf. 

"It needs to happen fast," DeChambeau told reporters this week ahead of LIV Golf Miami, per Sports Illustrated. "It’s not a two-year thing. It needs to happen quicker rather than later just for the good of the sport. Too many people are losing interest.

"We can give input. We can have little moments where we say, 'Hey, we think this would be a good idea, or that would be a good idea,' but ultimately, it's up to the guys up top to figure it out and figure it out quickly because we can't keep going this direction."

If only we knew why those people are losing interest. Maybe, just maybe, DeChambeau, Jon Rahm, Brooks Koepka and other superstars ditching the PGA Tour strictly for financial reasons to start a rival golf league could explain some of it. LIV players want to have their cake and eat it too, but that's not how professional sports operate.

 

Bailing on the PGA Tour just to complain that the same tour won't let you come and go as you please is as hypocritical as it gets. There wouldn't be a need to reunite pro golfers if they hadn't left in the first place.

 

"The only answer is for us to somehow come together in some sort of terms where it makes sense and for us to be playing all again in somewhat of the same boat," DeChambeau said. "It's great to have the majors where we come together, but we want to be competing, at least I want to be competing every week, with all of the best players in the world."

 

No, DeChambeau, you don't. If that were your ultimate goal, you wouldn't have taken the money to play on a smaller tour with a significantly lighter schedule. PGA Tour stars such as Scottie Scheffler and Rory McIlroy turned down the generational wealth because they genuinely care about competition and legacy over their bank statements.

Actions speak louder than words in this game, and we're tired of hearing these guys talk about mending the fracture they caused.

 

 

 

 

[bscinstnct]

As far as commercial success goes, this could not look worse for LIV

 

Every season they lose fan interest globally. This shows 75% less fan interest this year than the inaugural season

 

It is remarkable that after so many billions, so many top names signed…they do worse and worse. 
 

 

[bcjim]

12 hours ago, tomjas said:

PIP was around before LIV and is the very definition of a handout 

Fair point.  And so many people believe it's a bad idea that it's being cut in half this year and I suspect it will fade away soon.

[mosesgolf]

I’ll be following LIV for the next 3 days to check up on AK’s progress.  So they picked up a viewer here lol.

[Cactus Jack]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

As far as commercial success goes, this could not look worse for LIV

 

Every season they lose fan interest globally. This shows 75% less fan interest this year than the inaugural season

 

It is remarkable that after so many billions, so many top names signed…they do worse and worse. 
 

 

 

Dig into the actual PGAT vs. LIV trends and a different story starts to emerge. 

 

Youtube searches demonstrates enormous spikes in interest for every LIV event. PGAT results while steady, fall embarrassingly short of the start up exhibition league. 

 

 

 

News searches reiterate a similar trend. People are searching out news about LIV that rivals what the established 50+ year old institution is driving. For whatever reason, folks are searching out LIV content, and it seems AK's addition did result in a pop of interest.  

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

3 hours ago, bcjim said:

Fair point.  And so many people believe it's a bad idea that it's being cut in half this year and I suspect it will fade away soon.

I hate Pip, but it wasn't a handout. It was earned, largely for reasons that added questionable value-add, but it was earned. 

 

Again I thought it was stupid and should've never roled out, but at least there was a method and metric for earning it. 

Edited April 5 by BlackDiamondPar5

[bscinstnct]

33 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

Dig into the actual PGAT vs. LIV trends and a different story starts to emerge. 

 

Youtube searches demonstrates enormous spikes in interest for every LIV event. PGAT results while steady, fall embarrassingly short of the start up exhibition league. 

 

 

 

News searches reiterate a similar trend. People are searching out news about LIV that rivals what the established 50+ year old institution is driving. For whatever reason, folks are searching out LIV content, and it seems AK's addition did result in a pop of interest.  

 

 

 

Here is google trends worldwide pga tour vs liv golf for past twelve months 

 

I appreciate the YouTube data but pga events are watched on actual network tv. People search liv golf on YouTube for events to try to find them to watch. That’s why those YouTube spikes occur when liv events take place 

 

 

Edited April 5 by bscinstnct

[CDM]

https://fortune.com/2024/04/04/steve-cohen-golf-ai-four-day-workweek-billionaire-mets-investing/

 

Interesting reason SC jumped in on the SSG Deal.......................

[mosesgolf]

IMO the LIV Tour will not be able to get any meaningful traction of sponsors and media outlet deals to be a classic business model of success as indicated in the graphs above.   In all honesty the likelyhood of that ever happening is nil.  The LIV Tour on its own will only survive on the PIF willingness to throw good money down the tidybowl which is why its merger with the PGAT is so vital.  

 

IMO the LIV Tour has a good (not great/spectacular and never will be) product but they won't have the revenue streams to be sustainable plus the PGAT is where it's at in terms of overall viewership and where sponsor money will flow.   The PGAT donates big $ to charities, its relationship with the military/veterans, people in need, hospitals and that list goes on and on.  LIV does nothing on that end imo.  It has boiled down to what seems like a battle of good vs not so good.  lol

 

What's indicative of the above charts is that folks initialy chimed in to see what all the hubbub was all about and the overall interest is the PGAT.

 

From what I've gathered from LIV is that J.Niemann is playing very well and many of us want to know more about AK and are rooting for his success.  While on the PGA Tour we've seen exciting wins by college amateur star Nick Dunlap, former bouncer Jake Knapp, Wyndham Clark chasing 59 at Pebble, Mssr Pavon, Nick Taylor's final round theatrics at Phoenix, Hideki's legendary final round at Genesis, Eckroats emergence, Scheffler showing Tigeresque glimpses, plus Malnati and Jaeger's life changing wins.  It's been nothing but excitement with the good guys this year.  😇

Edited April 5 by mosesgolf

[King_Slender]

Do they always not show the pylon early on Thursday (since everybody is tied for first)?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

28 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Here is google trends worldwide pga tour vs liv golf for past twelve months 

 

I appreciate the YouTube data but pga events are watched on actual network tv. People search liv golf on YouTube for events to try to find them to watch. That’s why those YouTube spikes occur when liv events take place 

 

 

Also if you check website traffic (on any free or paid website traffic analyzer) the pgat site has grown by 1M visits since November over the period that LIV went up 1/5th that amount. Both charts have similar increasing slopes since November as I would expect.

 

I would expect liv being so new and if successful, for the chart to look like a hockey stick. However it shows anemic growth. 

 

 

[shankz]

Watching Liv rn and they said Brooks is using a Scotty mallet for the first time. Anyone know the model?

 

looks like a phantom 5

Edited April 5 by shankz
Update

[bscinstnct]

14 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Also if you check website traffic (on any free or paid website traffic analyzer) the pgat site has grown by 1M visits since November over the period that LIV went up 1/5th that amount. Both charts have similar increasing slopes since November as I would expect.

 

I would expect liv being so new and if successful, for the chart to look like a hockey stick. However it shows anemic growth. 

 

 

 

The problem for LIV is that it’s turning out that an elite golfer is like a new car

 

As soon as you drive it off the PGA Tour parking lot 

 

Its value plummets ; )

[Titleist99]

56 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

IMO the LIV Tour will not be able to get any meaningful traction of sponsors and media outlet deals to be a classic business model of success as indicated in the graphs above.   In all honesty the likelyhood of that ever happening is nil.  The LIV Tour on its own will only survive on the PIF willingness to throw good money down the tidybowl which is why its merger with the PGAT is so vital.  

 

IMO the LIV Tour has a good (not great/spectacular and never will be) product but they won't have the revenue streams to be sustainable plus the PGAT is where it's at in terms of overall viewership and where sponsor money will flow.   The PGAT donates big $ to charities, its relationship with the military/veterans, people in need, hospitals and that list goes on and on.  LIV does nothing on that end imo.  It has boiled down to what seems like a battle of good vs not so good.  lol

 

What's indicative of the above charts is that folks initialy chimed in to see what all the hubbub was all about and the overall interest is the PGAT.

 

From what I've gathered from LIV is that J.Niemann is playing very well and many of us want to know more about AK and are rooting for his success.  While on the PGA Tour we've seen exciting wins by college amateur star Nick Dunlap, former bouncer Jake Knapp, Wyndham Clark chasing 59 at Pebble, Mssr Pavon, Nick Taylor's final round theatrics at Phoenix, Hideki's legendary final round at Genesis, Eckroats emergence, Scheffler showing Tigeresque glimpses, plus Malnati and Jaeger's life changing wins.  It's been nothing but excitement with the good guys this year.  😇

Absolutely. Just to add, we know less than nothing regarding LIV tournaments because their fans never talk about the golf. LIV is dependent on their drip drip nonsensical moves like signing a player to a 1/2 billion dollar contract. Real golf fans couldn't care less how rich Jon Rahm and others are. IMO