LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[BlackDiamondPar5]

5 hours ago, billyspan said:

IMO - Norman doesn't get enough credit for his 5 Australian Open victories (and to a lesser extent Australian PGA Championships and Australian Masters).  The fields were much stronger than today's Australian events.  Perhaps his legacy in America is different if he was born in Florida or the UK...but that didn't happen.  We view the world throughout own lense.  Carry on boys...

He was number one in the world for 7 years and only won two majors. 

Edited April 8 by BlackDiamondPar5

[Short Pete]

On 4/6/2024 at 4:54 AM, bobfoster said:

 

Yes - and I'll be interested to watch this year's Majors. Was one of my thoughts early on. One of the big attractions of LIV early on (other than ginormous one of selling your soul for money) was the lighter schedule. Get more money for playing less golf. Play three day tourneys instead of four. Play every two or three weeks ... 16 tourneys a year instead of the average 25 - 30 PGAT guys play. More time with your family. Way lighter schedule. Play against the same people every week, a few great ones, but a bunch of has-beens - known names coasting on the downhill side of their careers - and a few never-weres. 

 

But how long do you suppose you can stay at the very top level of the sport when by definition one of the main attractions of your tour is that you can be more casual about golf, have more "me time"? You gotta earn it on the PGAT. Everyone gets Participation Prizes on LIV. How long does DJ stay competitive when his primary competition is not Scottie, but Talor Gooch. How long does Koepka hit his highest level when he has to beat Sergio or Pat Perez? 

 

I figured it would take a few years before the skills would (almost inevitably) begin to diminish. The Majors this year and next will be fascinating. So, you ask, "If two of the current LIV players win two of the next four majors wouldn't that make them the Premier golf tour?"

 

I'd respond by asking " If one or none of the current LIV players win in the next four majors,  wouldn't that confirm that they have become nothing but exhibition tour players?"

 

I've kinda given up trying to explain this. I did business with the Saudis a couple decades ago (worked for Merrill Lynch International). These are cold people to do business with. That is why they are insanely rich, why they have been able to buy (or try to buy) our sport. The Saudis bought a golf tour as a hobby, instead of a couple more yachts. Believe me or not - don't care. These people don't give a flying crap about the good of our game. They care about their own motives. Nothing else. This is truth. And if you don't see this, I'm sorry, but you are blind. They are pretty much indifferent as to the actual golfer's careers. They are badly damaging the global sport of golf, and are doing the samerthing with pro tennis. Really hope the guys that went to LIV with stars in their eyes, drooling over the numbers in their bank accounts get that this is how PIF sees them:

 

 

Good grief folks, wake the heck up! Just say no.

Thank you! That’s the way it is!

[tomjas]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He won a lot in Australia but don't overestimate the overall strength of the fields.  Later ...... he demanded exorbitant appearance fees to show up, sometimes as much or more than the winner's share would be or . .  the entire purse, lol.  Not all associated with golf in Australia were fans of what he became. 

 

His Australian Open and other wins get the respect they deserve and he was a great player . . . but revealed over time to be a donkey, mostly by his own actions and comments. 

I am Australian but not his greatest fan by any means 

 

As more than one Australian pro has said publicly, he’s motivated by money first, second and third 

 

Having said that, he was a great golfer and any attempt to downplay his achievements is just silly 

 

What’s more, he’s been very generous with his time and money in helping young players 

 

At worst, he’s a complicated guy with a massive ego

 

That’s a lot better than a certain American & an Englishman that I could name 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, tomjas said:

I am Australian but not his greatest fan by any means 

 

As more than one Australian pro has said publicly, he’s motivated by money first, second and third 

 

Having said that, he was a great golfer and any attempt to downplay his achievements is just silly 

 

What’s more, he’s been very generous with his time and money in helping young players 

 

At worst, he’s a complicated guy with a massive ego

 

That’s a lot better than a certain American & an Englishman that I could name 

 

 

 

Already said he was a great golfer, no doubt he's helped some folks.  Complicated? LOL, no. 

 

Not sure why it's now "what about so and so" but if the certain American is Woods, his foundation dwarfs anything Norman has ever done for youth or education or charity, it's not even a discussion.  But, it's not the discussion that was being had.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Redbird]

9 hours ago, Konklifer said:

Rahm has quickly become insufferable.  

 

The more he talks the more it becomes evident that he’s having second thoughts on leaving the PGA tour.  

[chip75]

19 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

Greg was just good at getting beat.  IMO he didn’t throw many away but just got beat.  

He was obviously a fantastic player, but he some rotten shots when the middle of the green was needed. From four putts to four irons into the crowds, he did some funky things to lose some big tournaments. But it's quite possible he had the same mindset when he won tournaments and just didn’t think about not hitting a great shot.

8 hours ago, KennyP said:

When the camera cut back, the child was crying and it looked like words were being exchanged between Grace and Sergio.

I thought Sergio was shedding a tear over the loss, I guess that champagne stings! Hopefully the little girl's mom washed her tears away.

[bscinstnct]

BK call the Masters

 

” the first big event of the year”

 

🤣🤣

 

 

[stinger_gc]

The Masters has a * since Dean Burmester isn’t competing 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Redbird said:

 

The more he talks the more it becomes evident that he’s having second thoughts on leaving the PGA tour.  

He has half a billion dollars in thoughts, lol, he’s not regretting anything - just now wanting to rearrange golf to suit him. 

[tomjas]

1 hour ago, chip75 said:

He was obviously a fantastic player, but he some rotten shots when the middle of the green was needed. From four putts to four irons into the crowds, he did some funky things to lose some big tournaments. But it's quite possible he had the same mindset when he won tournaments and just didn’t think about not hitting a great shot.

I thought Sergio was shedding a tear over the loss, I guess that champagne stings! Hopefully the little girl's mom washed her tears away.

He 100% beat himself in the British Open playoff to Calcavecchia

 

Tried to belly a sand wedge when everyone else putted from the same position then put a drive into a fairway bunker when it was obvious it was too much club

[Shilgy]

22 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

1984 US Open Fuzzy Zoeller beat him

Not Greg’s fault Gamez holes out from bunker ftw 

1986 Masters Jack beat him

1987 Masters Mize pitches in

1989 Open Calc beat him in playoff 

1990 PGA Zinger beat him in playoff

1995 US Open Corey Pavin beat him

1996 Masters Faldo played a Masterful final round 

 

Greg was just good at getting beat.  IMO he didn’t throw many away but just got beat.   Imo the goat at just getting beat.   His playing record is a pathetic 4-8.  Scotty throws away tournaments with bad putting.  Greg just gets beat by heroic play by others.  Greg could never grasp victory from the jaws of defeat.   
 

I have zero guilt posting this.  

 

 

Gamez holed out from the fairway…there’s a plaque

 

Calc beat him because Greg stupidly drove into a bunker

 

Faldo beat him because Greg messed up. Yes, Faldo played a great round which is often forgotten but Greg melted down.

 

Pavin beat him because Greg played poorly in the final round

 

Zinger beat him in the 1993 PGA…not ‘90. Greg three putted from 20 feet to lose on the second playoff hole.

 

So yeah…a few great shots were made to beat him. But that doesn’t mean he won have won those if those shots didn’t go in.

 

Greg was great when he was on a roll but was poor when things faltered. As noted many of those losses were caused by Greg’s mess ups…not the other guy beating him.

 

Easy to see why he wanted LIV to be 54 holes.

 

 

Edited April 9 by Shilgy

[Ronnie Mundt]

I gave LIV a fair shake last year. I don’t watch anymore. It’s just bad. And I echo what was said above here; they really need to tone down the propaganda-laced commentary from the broadcast. It’s wildly annoying.
 

If Rahm gets his wish for 72 holes the only difference for me is that I won’t be watching four rounds, whereas now I don’t watch three rounds.

[Valtiel]

I'm wondering if we can get *more* visual clutter on the coverage? There is an awful lot of space in the middle of the screen there that doesn't have colors and numbers screaming at me, so maybe we can just put a shirtless bust of Greg Norman in front of every tee box? 😅

Edited April 9 by Valtiel

[freeze16172002]

11 hours ago, Redbird said:

 

The more he talks the more it becomes evident that he’s having second thoughts on leaving the PGA tour.  

He cant believe that he is forgettable and life goes on without him. He showed his integrity and its pretty low, so good riddance

[freeze16172002]

8 hours ago, Ronnie Mundt said:

I gave LIV a fair shake last year. I don’t watch anymore. It’s just bad. And I echo what was said above here; they really need to tone down the propaganda-laced commentary from the broadcast. It’s wildly annoying.
 

If Rahm gets his wish for 72 holes the only difference for me is that I won’t be watching four rounds, whereas now I don’t watch three rounds.

How does that work if you signed for a 3 day work week and they add a day? 

[Titleist99]

4 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I'm wondering if we can get *more* visual clutter on the coverage? There is an awful lot of space in the middle of the screen there that doesn't have colors and numbers screaming at me, so maybe we can just put a shirtless bust of Greg Norman in front of every tee box? 😅

The goal is to look like F1 with the silly graphics, the golf is secondary. Big crowds though🤣.

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Gamez holed out from the fairway…there’s a plaque

 

Calc beat him because Greg stupidly drove into a bunker

 

Faldo beat him because Greg messed up. Yes, Faldo played a great round which is often forgotten but Greg melted down.

 

Pavin beat him because Greg played poorly in the final round

 

Zinger beat him in the 1993 PGA…not ‘90. Greg three putted from 20 feet to lose on the second playoff hole.

 

So yeah…a few great shots were made to beat him. But that doesn’t mean he won have won those if those shots didn’t go in.

 

Greg was great when he was on a roll but was poor when things faltered. As noted many of those losses were caused by Greg’s mess ups…not the other guy beating him.

 

Easy to see why he wanted LIV to be 54 holes.

 

 

Bob Tway!

For sure in many of those situations he would have won but for some timely miracle shots and getting in his own way. 
 

Probably “the” example of how tough and fickle golf can be - nobody had it stuck to him more and more often in the events that mattered the most. 
 

Used to sympathize years ago - was a fan - now he’s a braying burro. 

 

[Hawkeye77]

39 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

How does that work if you signed for a 3 day work week and they add a day? 

Yikes - losing another day of that family time that (cough) made all the difference, lol. 
 

“We pay you $$$$$$$$$ - you play!”

Edited April 9 by Hawkeye77

[tssgj65]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:44 AM, RobS said:

Carlos Ortiz claimed, "It was definitely said that we were going to get them" when asked about OWGR points on Colt Knost's podcast.  To be fair, he acknowledged that they knew it wouldn't be immediate.  Perhaps different players were told different things.

Norman = Used car salesman.......

[BlackDiamondPar5]

9 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He has half a billion dollars in thoughts, lol, he’s not regretting anything - just now wanting to rearrange golf to suit him. 

Yes but that half billion can seem a little hollow when you had to earn it in a way that you truly don't respect. 

[tssgj65]

On 4/3/2024 at 11:02 AM, Golferpaul said:

And that will be a sad day for golf.  If so, the majors will follow the downward spiral of the TPC Sawgrass where many of the top players were not playing.  I miss the days when Sawgrass had one of the best fields in golf.

Does anyone remember how old Palmer and Watson were when they won their last major?

Watson won his final major at 33 (he did lose the Open playoff in 2009 – an outlier).  Palmer won his last major at 34.  Jack won one major after the age of 40.  They were draws for the accomplishments of their prime and people did want to see them play.  The point is that major tournament competitiveness drops significantly after the mid 30's.

 

Ages of the major winners the last two years at the time they won:

 

2023:  28, 29, 32, 36

2022:  25, 29, 27, 29

 

Multi major winners are draws from their accomplishments, not for their competitiveness later in their careers – maybe once in a while they were competitive with a good putting week.  DJ will be 40 in June – perhaps he may but don’t see him winning another major.  Kopeka just shot back to back 77's in LIV, and is now at the age of Palmer's last major and older than Watson's last.  Getting paid with LIV employment, how hungry are they?  Regarding the other LIV’rs, either no one cares about them or they are late/close to the end of their prime.

 

Other than Rahm, Smith, Niemann, Dechambeau, Kopeka - the other names are window dressing based on past accomplishments/major wins.... people want to see that yes, but actual competitiveness?

 

Feels like some of the takers knew they were on the downside of their prime/or perhaps injured with doubt they would make it back and it was easier to take the money.  That was definitely Kopeka’s vibe in Full Swing 1.  Personally the only ones I really cared about that went were Rahm, Smith, and Niemann - still early in their prime.  And now it sounds like Rahm is missing playing The Tour.

 

LIV employment has evolved to where players go once they’ve made their reputation on the PGA Tour - maybe win a major or two (get a Masters/Open lifetime exemption, or a number of years with the others).  LIV is also where relevance becomes diminished.  Further, the current model is unsustainable from a pure ROI perspective, but it’s not my money to be dumb with.

 

 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Bob Tway!

For sure in many of those situations he would have won but for some timely miracle shots and getting in his own way. 
 

Probably “the” example of how tough and fickle golf can be - nobody had it stuck to him more and more often in the events that mattered the most. 
 

Used to sympathize years ago - was a fan - now he’s a braying burro. 

 

As I recall….Mize, Gamez, Tway. Let’s say the “Miracle” shots didn’t go in and the player settled for par.  Greg would not have necessarily won if those shots had just settled close and the player tapped in. Except for the Gamez where eagle was made one Greg had a chance to birdie the same hole but….did not.

 

Only point is he might have won if the playoffs continued but none of those were locks. And we’re glossing over the ones it truly was his fault. 1986 Masters for example.

 

Greg was a wonderful player with great physical talent and was a delight to watch…I even had the Shark straw hat back in the day.  But he lacked the special something in the clutch that the greats possessed.

[grm24]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Bob Tway!

For sure in many of those situations he would have won but for some timely miracle shots and getting in his own way. 

Not as well remembered by many but in 1990 David Frost holed a bunker shot on the final hole at English Turn in New Orleans to beat Norman as well.

 

 

[wedgegame]

1 hour ago, tssgj65 said:

Kopeka just shot back to back 77's in LIV

 

This concerned me as well.  If I remember correctly he won the event before The Masters last year, and showed extremely well. On the other hand, I'm done doubting BK when it comes to majors.

[dalehead]

1 hour ago, tssgj65 said:

Does anyone remember how old Palmer and Watson were when they won their last major?

Watson won his final major at 33 (he did lose the Open playoff in 2009 – an outlier).  Palmer won his last major at 34.  Jack won one major after the age of 40.  They were draws for the accomplishments of their prime and people did want to see them play.  The point is that major tournament competitiveness drops significantly after the mid 30's.

 

Ages of the major winners the last two years at the time they won:

 

2023:  28, 29, 32, 36

2022:  25, 29, 27, 29

 

Multi major winners are draws from their accomplishments, not for their competitiveness later in their careers – maybe once in a while they were competitive with a good putting week.  DJ will be 40 in June – perhaps he may but don’t see him winning another major.  Kopeka just shot back to back 77's in LIV, and is now at the age of Palmer's last major and older than Watson's last.  Getting paid with LIV employment, how hungry are they?  Regarding the other LIV’rs, either no one cares about them or they are late/close to the end of their prime.

 

Other than Rahm, Smith, Niemann, Dechambeau, Kopeka - the other names are window dressing based on past accomplishments/major wins.... people want to see that yes, but actual competitiveness?

 

Feels like some of the takers knew they were on the downside of their prime/or perhaps injured with doubt they would make it back and it was easier to take the money.  That was definitely Kopeka’s vibe in Full Swing 1.  Personally the only ones I really cared about that went were Rahm, Smith, and Niemann - still early in their prime.  And now it sounds like Rahm is missing playing The Tour.

 

LIV employment has evolved to where players go once they’ve made their reputation on the PGA Tour - maybe win a major or two (get a Masters/Open lifetime exemption, or a number of years with the others).  LIV is also where relevance becomes diminished.  Further, the current model is unsustainable from a pure ROI perspective, but it’s not my money to be dumb with.

 

 

Jack turned 40 in January 1980. He won the the US Open in June and the PGA in August of that year and the Masters in 1986.

[hackeraz]

3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

The goal is to look like F1 with the silly graphics, the golf is secondary. Big crowds though🤣.

More like Twitch or gaming I think to try and appeal to that audience. 

[TiScape]

Doing my darnedest to not think about the LIV stuff/negativity. But watching the ESPN+ coverage this morning and seeing Rahm. It’s still impossible for me not to think of all his 1st person quotes denouncing LIV. Def on the Mt. Rushmore of foot down throat hypocrites. 
Oh well

[redfirebird08]

21 hours ago, Redbird said:

 

The more he talks the more it becomes evident that he’s having second thoughts on leaving the PGA tour.  

I think he just wants the merger to be finalized soon. He was probably hoping his move to LIV would help speed up the merger process. McIlroy seems to want it completed soon as well. Maybe it will be done by the end of this year. 

[idrive]

48 minutes ago, redfirebird08 said:

I think he just wants the merger to be finalized soon. He was probably hoping his move to LIV would help speed up the merger process. McIlroy seems to want it completed soon as well. Maybe it will be done by the end of this year. 

 

I'll never understand how taking a boat load of money is going to bring the game back together. Isn't this part of the reason it's fractured? 

 

"I understood my position, yes. And I understood that it could be, what I hoped, a step towards some kind of agreement, yes. Or more of an agreement or expedited agreement," said Rahm.

"But unfortunately it's not up to me. But I would hope it would be something that would help expedite that process. But at the end of the day, I still did what I thought was best for myself."

 

Making out as the sacrificial lamb to bring professional golf back together by taking a boat load of money but, doing what is best for himself. Okay JR.

 

I'd be interested in what most of the PGAT players REALLY think about JR. I know what I think and it's not full of praise. IMO JR has made this about himself and no one else.

 

Me thinks he thinks much to highly of himself.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, redfirebird08 said:

I think he just wants the merger to be finalized soon. He was probably hoping his move to LIV would help speed up the merger process. McIlroy seems to want it completed soon as well. Maybe it will be done by the end of this year. 

It doesn’t mean they will immediately regain their tour cards.  There has to be some kind of penalty.