LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[jdl]

9 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Did I read correctly that Chacarra was the only one to make it through qualifying for the US Open?

Plus exempt Bryson, Hatton, DJ, Kaymer, Koepka, Phil, Rahm,and Cam Smith.  Seems to be smaller representation as we go along.

Sergio is 1st alternate so has a decent chance of making it.

 

There's also 10 more final qualifiers played on June 3, not sure if any LIV guys are in those. Gooch isn't, that's for sure.

[MrDC]

I think LIV players truly believed this was the end for the PGAT in 2023, LIV was going to take all the good players and rule pro golf, the PGAT would become a feeder.

Now that that's obviously not going to happen they're begging for a deal, any deal, to allow LIV guys back on the Tour to get points and remain top players, because every day that goes by LIV is becoming more and more irrelevant, forcing them to throw more bags of money at guys who aren't bringing eyes or sponsors or venues or anything to help LIV.

But they missed the boat on getting a deal done, it should have happened last year when the PGAT was really sweating, now they know new stars are coming and the old guys aren't popular enough to hurt them if they leave, even the great Rory could walk and the PGAT wouldn't miss a beat, so this war is coming to an end and the PGAT has won.

Edited May 22 by MrDC

[Titleist99]

20 minutes ago, MrDC said:

I think LIV players truly believed this was the end for the PGAT in 2023, LIV was going to take all the good players and rule pro golf, the PGAT would become a feeder.

Now that that's obviously not going to happen they're begging for a deal, any deal, to allow LIV guys back on the Tour to get points and remain top players, because every day that goes by LIV is becoming more and more irrelevant, forcing them to throw more bags of money at guys who aren't bringing eyes or sponsors or venues or anything to help LIV.

But they missed the boat on getting a deal done, it should have happened last year when the PGAT was really sweating, now they know new stars are coming and the old guys aren't popular enough to hurt them if they leave, even the great Rory could walk and the PGAT wouldn't miss a beat, so this war is coming to an end and the PGAT has won.

Nah, I don't think their attempt to buy professional men's Golf is over.

 

They're planning to build home golf courses for each team. That will require throwing 1/2-billion-dollar contracts at a couple more PGAT players.

 

Will it succeed, who knows...... I still think a deal will be reached based on PGAT's greed.

[NormanFan]

I may have stated this elsewhere or another thread but why not take the PIF money and use that within the TOUR to create like 8 WGC-like events around the world?  Travel/scheduling could be a mess but if the TOUR would get off this FedEx Cup playoff nonsense and consider a year-long schedule that went back to a TOUR Championship in November I think it could be doable.

 

I know I'm oversimplifying a fix but just throwing something out there.

[Hawkeye77]

42 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Nah, I don't think their attempt to buy professional men's Golf is over.

 

They're planning to build home golf courses for each team. That will require throwing 1/2-billion-dollar contracts at a couple more PGAT players.

 

Will it succeed, who knows...... I still think a deal will be reached based on PGAT's greed.

There is no real plan to build courses - just puffery by Norman for now. 
 

 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, tomjas said:

There were 16 in PGA but Open has different criteria e.g. top 100 on OWGR for PGA v top 60

And PGA gave a few exemptions

Edited May 22 by Shilgy

[idrive]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

 I still think a deal will be reached based on PGAT's greed.

 

I don't and hope not.

 

I'm hoping the PGAT finally realizes that they simply need to ignore liv and continue doing what they were doing making changes where change is needed by listening to the fans.

 

liv cannot develop new stars. Their current crop is already being forgotten about. Won't be too much longer they (liv) will be forgotten about.

 

 

[MrDC]

Home courses could help them for sure, it would be an interesting test for the team thing, but my gut says it won't work because in the end golf is just not a team sport, there's no player/player action, there's nothing compelling about the team play, it's just individuals congregating swings and scores. Maybe it works for the younger fan but I have no interest, I love the lone wolf aspect of golf, I don't even get into the Ryder Cup much.

Edited May 22 by MrDC

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, MrDC said:

Home courses could help them for sure, it would be an interesting test for the team thing, but my gut says it won't work because in the end golf is just not a team sport, there's no player/player action, there's nothing compelling about the team play, it's just individuals congregating swings and scores. Maybe it works for the younger fan but I have no interest, I love the lone wolf aspect of golf, I don't even get into the Ryder Cup much.

 

"Home courses" make no sense unless all the guys on each team have some common and narrowly defined geographical demographic which would start to look a bit odd - Norman comparing these teams to sports franchise venues is still a stupid concept and in the same recent article he's touting the Philippines, lol.  Makes me chuckle --- they wanted and took the money and are rich and have nothing to complain about but . . . only one event in Australia allowed, now talking "expansion" (whatever venue they can pay enough) in the Philippines, lol, and other "stops" - it's a spread out mess and doubt the schedule really suits any of them.  

Edited May 22 by Hawkeye77

[NormanFan]

2 hours ago, MrDC said:

Home courses could help them for sure, it would be an interesting test for the team thing, but my gut says it won't work because in the end golf is just not a team sport, there's no player/player action, there's nothing compelling about the team play, it's just individuals congregating swings and scores. Maybe it works for the younger fan but I have no interest, I love the lone wolf aspect of golf, I don't even get into the Ryder Cup much.

 

I can get in the Ryder Cup because there's a sense of nationalism in it and team play is also rarely featured on TOUR.  I just don't think doing it on the pro level works long-term because at that level golf has always been more about the personalities involved.  Team golf is more like high school or collegiate golf but it's tough to really sell that to viewers because in that format your #4 and #5 guys are arguably more important than whomever your #1 is to keep you score competitive.  So it kind of inverts making stars.  LIV is trying to do the NCAA model is an individual + team competition and that just isn't translating well on television or elsewhere IMO.

 

LIV might be better served having some tournaments team centric and some that are all about the individual?  I dunno, but when I think of a team competition I used to love watching it was the Alfred Dunhill Cup back when nations had like 3 person squads and you had 1-on-1 matchups in stroke play, with the winning team advancing.

[CDM]

20 hours ago, Tpfol said:

 

Basically, you are agreeing with me.

The PGA tour didnt need to suspend these guys if they truly believed all that, they wouldnt have been able to retain their PGA status and wouldnt have had to go thru all of the controversy.

 

 

They really did not have to do anything as you note.  Yet you never know, there could have been someone who tried to retain both and stir the pot..!   Reed and Perez come to mind......

 

The players were suspended based on media aspects, or what was used to suspened them.  Regardless they either need to figure it out or agree to disagree.

 

At this point with players now making the call on what is good or not.... I dont see it happening.   

 

Only way I see it is combine LIV and the PGAT elevated events in some 10-11 event aspect.  Its 8 and 14 events now between the two. 

Aslo way to many events are required to retain cards / status. etc. as noted and players are not going to play that many times.

 

Sepculation, but I belive that travel is a huge factor. LIV wants to go to "world areas" ( 9-10 events outside US).  PGAT has ZERO interest of holding events outside North America minus the one co-sanctioned Scottish Open. 

 

I think a hangup from PGAt players would scheudling events, more so PGAT players buying into having to travel further then east coast to west coast.   

 

Though IF they can figure it out they should set it up for "earning it".   All players would have to earn the right into the top money events.   Not contracted players bs, OWGR cr*p, etc..   

 

Start at zero every year with a points system.  Fedex cup like system but maybe modified.   I would get rid of the fedex cup events too. I find them to be a waste and those events could be used to make up the difference in schedule.   

 

How you are playing that year is how you get inm plain and simple.  NOT on past play, not the "I played okay last year and owgr does not drop much so I am in next year for sure"   Or   "I am under contract...!"     

 

Make them ALL earn it each year...!   .........otherwise as many have note, not sure how they can make a deal work.

 

 

[bekgolf]

3 hours ago, idrive said:

 

I don't and hope not.

 

I'm hoping the PGAT finally realizes that they simply need to ignore liv and continue doing what they were doing making changes where change is needed by listening to the fans.

 

liv cannot develop new stars. Their current crop is already being forgotten about. Won't be too much longer they (liv) will be forgotten about.

 

 

 

That's why Jimmy went away, the PGA Tour realized his goal was to find a deal with Liv so they kicked him to the side.

[Nic1972]

3 hours ago, MrDC said:

Home courses could help them for sure, it would be an interesting test for the team thing, but my gut says it won't work because in the end golf is just not a team sport, there's no player/player action, there's nothing compelling about the team play, it's just individuals congregating swings and scores. Maybe it works for the younger fan but I have no interest, I love the lone wolf aspect of golf, I don't even get into the Ryder Cup much.

I agree with everything you say, except the part about the Ryder Cup…

[tomjas]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

There is no real plan to build courses - just puffery by Norman for now. 
 

 

There’s land acquisition negotiations happening right now 

 

 

[jdl]

https://x.com/flushingitgolf/status/1793302928951779616

 

@flushingitgolf
The LIV “transfer window” for team trades has been open for more than 2 weeks and there’s been zero moves and no rumours. If the team concept and franchise model is going to be the valuable asset of the league, then there needs to be more juice. This current role out is not good.

Edited May 22 by jdl

[bscinstnct]

Google trends

 

Peaks and declines with each season Clearly show that 2024 has less fan interest than 2023….which had less interest than 2022.

 

600MM for Rahm has done nothing to stem the decline in popularity 

 

 

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, CDM said:

 

They really did not have to do anything as you note.  Yet you never know, there could have been someone who tried to retain both and stir the pot..!   Reed and Perez come to mind......

 

The players were suspended based on media aspects, or what was used to suspened them.  Regardless they either need to figure it out or agree to disagree.

 

At this point with players now making the call on what is good or not.... I dont see it happening.   

 

Only way I see it is combine LIV and the PGAT elevated events in some 10-11 event aspect.  Its 8 and 14 events now between the two. 

Aslo way to many events are required to retain cards / status. etc. as noted and players are not going to play that many times.

 

Sepculation, but I belive that travel is a huge factor. LIV wants to go to "world areas" ( 9-10 events outside US).  PGAT has ZERO interest of holding events outside North America minus the one co-sanctioned Scottish Open. 

 

I think a hangup from PGAt players would scheudling events, more so PGAT players buying into having to travel further then east coast to west coast.   

 

Though IF they can figure it out they should set it up for "earning it".   All players would have to earn the right into the top money events.   Not contracted players bs, OWGR cr*p, etc..   

 

Start at zero every year with a points system.  Fedex cup like system but maybe modified.   I would get rid of the fedex cup events too. I find them to be a waste and those events could be used to make up the difference in schedule.   

 

How you are playing that year is how you get inm plain and simple.  NOT on past play, not the "I played okay last year and owgr does not drop much so I am in next year for sure"   Or   "I am under contract...!"     

 

Make them ALL earn it each year...!   .........otherwise as many have note, not sure how they can make a deal work.

 

 

So how do they get into events in January if nothing carries over?

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, tomjas said:

There’s land acquisition negotiations happening right now 

 

 

Any chance you have a link to said claim?

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, tomjas said:

There’s land acquisition negotiations happening right now 

 

 

Source it - where and how many?

 

Norman said two weeks ago they are thinking about it. 

[leezer99]

When searching for trends over time I prefer to flatten the line and have it start a little before LIV kicked off.  What you need to understand is that the 100 peak is where it was searched for the most. A peak that hits the 25 mark means it was only 25% as popular as the search term was at its highest. The largest peak you see to the right (near the Mar 24th date) is when Jon Rahm joined and it ranked a 16.  He definitely isn't moving the needle. 

 

 

Now when you compare LIV Golf and PGA Tour you can see that while the PGAT hasn't had huge swells it has consistently gained over its own interest over the past two years. 2023 was strong and the early part of 2024 is trending up as well. 

 

[MrDC]

The other problem with the home course team thing is are the players living and practicing there? how many events? for fans to really get invested in a local team you need to have a local presence, just showing up once a year won't create any love, don't see how this can really work.

But it appears the PGAT/LIV merger may be happening, the two sides traded terms a few days ago and Jordan says it's close.

I suppose if the PGAT events some LIV players are allowed to play is limited, and PGAT players are allowed to join some LIV events, it can work and maybe everyone is happy, maybe.

Edited May 23 by MrDC

[Golferpaul]

On 5/20/2024 at 4:27 PM, Nic1972 said:

Happy for Schauffele that there will be no asterisk next to his name, the best iron player of all times was in the field.

And he might have won if not for a rogue cop.

[Golferpaul]

On 5/21/2024 at 12:48 PM, Dutch1008 said:

 

Do the math. Top guys play 25x a year, maybe. 

 

 More like 20 per year for the top guys.

 

Golfer average events per year

DJ 20.3

Jordan 23.7

Phil 21.7

Jack 17.6

Tiger 14.6

Rory 15.8

Rahm 21

 

 

[Golferpaul]

21 hours ago, idrive said:

 

I'm hoping the PGAT finally realizes that they simply need to ignore liv and continue doing what they were doing making changes where change is needed by listening to the fans.

 

That's what I said two years ago.  Monihan should be fired.

 

 

[TiScape]

On 5/22/2024 at 10:19 AM, MrDC said:

Home courses could help them for sure, it would be an interesting test for the team thing, but my gut says it won't work because in the end golf is just not a team sport, there's no player/player action, there's nothing compelling about the team play, it's just individuals congregating swings and scores. Maybe it works for the younger fan but I have no interest, I love the lone wolf aspect of golf, I don't even get into the Ryder Cup much.

I had a very similar post typed up the other day and just ended up hitting refresh. Mainly bcs it’s what I’ve been saying since this started and I’m mostly over it. 
An individual sport pushing a “team” concept just doesn’t get a lot of traction. Tennis tried it  (they still might have a few events and it’s so obscure/unpopular I haven’t noticed). PBA bowling is still rolling w/it (punny 😝) and it’s a tough watch. (Yes, I’ll actually watch some individual PBA events if I’m familiar w/the bowlers). The thought of a LIV team having a “home course” just doesn’t make sense to me. Are they attempting to be like an NFL, NBA, MLB, Premier League franchise? So all the players live in the area of the course, practice together have team meetings… Move back home in the off season??? It’s like, nice thought, but… yeah no. 🤪

Edited May 25 by TiScape

[BlackDiamondPar5]

13 hours ago, leezer99 said:

When searching for trends over time I prefer to flatten the line and have it start a little before LIV kicked off.  What you need to understand is that the 100 peak is where it was searched for the most. A peak that hits the 25 mark means it was only 25% as popular as the search term was at its highest. The largest peak you see to the right (near the Mar 24th date) is when Jon Rahm joined and it ranked a 16.  He definitely isn't moving the needle. 

 

 

Now when you compare LIV Golf and PGA Tour you can see that while the PGAT hasn't had huge swells it has consistently gained over its own interest over the past two years. 2023 was strong and the early part of 2024 is trending up as well. 

 

What's significant about that chart is that the spike from Anthony Kim's joining in late Feb is almost 3x the spike of when the half-billion $ Rahm was announced going to LIV.

[Danielson]

2 hours ago, MrDC said:

The other problem with the home course team thing is are the players living and practicing there? how many events? for fans to really get invested in a local team you need to have a local presence, just showing up once a year won't create any love, don't see how this can really work.

But it appears the PGAT/LIV merger may be happening, the two sides traded terms a few days ago and Jordan says it's close.

I suppose if the PGAT events some LIV players are allowed to play is limited, and PGAT players are allowed to join some LIV events, it can work and maybe everyone is happy, maybe.

 

They should build barracks on the courses and make it a Real World style show

[hackeraz]

49 minutes ago, TiScape said:

I had a very similar post typed up the other day and just ended up hitting refresh. Mainly bcs it’s what I’ve been saying since this started and I’m mostly over it. 
An individual sport pushing a “team” concept just doesn’t get a lot of traction. Tennis tried it  (they still might have a few events and it’s so obscure/unpopular I haven’t noticed). PBA bowling is still rolling w/it (punny 😝) and it’s a tough watch. (Yes, I’ll actually watch some individual PBA events if I’m familiar w/the bowlers). The thought of a LIV team having a “home course” just doesn’t make sense to me. Are they attempting to be like an NFL, NBA, MLB, Premier League franchise? So all the players live in the area of the course, practice together have team meetings… Move back home in the off season??? It’s like, nice though, but… yeah no. 🤪

Not to argue one way or the other but I could see the home course thing playing out similar to other sports league contracts in time. There's a Dallas home team and if you live in Jupiter you can either hope for a contract from the Jupiter team or accept the offer from the Dallas team and move or not participate at all. It happens every day in other sports. My NHL neighbor spends six months out of the year living in Vegas due to his contract. I don't really see that as a huge ask for a 50 million dollar contract. 

[Dutch1008]

21 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

"Home courses" make no sense unless all the guys on each team have some common and narrowly defined geographical demographic which would start to look a bit odd - Norman comparing these teams to sports franchise venues is still a stupid concept and in the same recent article he's touting the Philippines, lol.  Makes me chuckle --- they wanted and took the money and are rich and have nothing to complain about but . . . only one event in Australia allowed, now talking "expansion" (whatever venue they can pay enough) in the Philippines, lol, and other "stops" - it's a spread out mess and doubt the schedule really suits any of them.  

 

The only way I could see a "home course" model working would be for the PIF/LIV to build high quality, affordable, public golf, that a community could rally behind. Something like Torrey or The Park West Palm. A place where residents get a screaming deal but the quality justifies non-residents paying through the nose. Something that builds some civic pride. Think of it as democratizing the pride that's felt by members of elite clubs when they host a US Open.     

 

At that point, it's no longer about the 4 interchangeable guys that make up the team, but pride in a community asset. In addition to hosting a LIV event, have the team conduct quarterly or annual clinics. Host the local high school championships. Steal an idea from the Evans Scholarship and fund a caddy program and provide an annual scholarship to a local kid. The players don't need to live there but they do need to make a mark on the community.  

 

Also, it'd be a pretty damn great way to actually "grow the game". But who am I kidding, since when has the PIF or Greg Norman ever operated w/ the public's interest in mind. If they go through w/ this, it will most certainly be a ridiculously gaudy country club with a $1m initiation fee or an over manicured $650/round resort course.

[bekgolf]

Building team courses for teams that won't generate revenue due to lack of interest just doesn't seem right to me.

 

Maybe I'd think differently if I had unlimited sums of money just by virtue of being born?