Greg Norman talks about One Length Irons, Bryson on to something

13»

Comments

  • PedronNiallPedronNiall Members Posts: 2,128 ✭✭
    Golfjack wrote:


    It just seems to be that they are making things harder by making the short irons longer. Short irons are great, easier to hit due to their shorter length. People should have the length of their clubs limited to the longest clubs they can hit comfortably. Progression up to say a 7 iron and then everything above (6-3 iron) is 7 iron length.




    Get out of my head =p This is exactly what I wanted to mess around with through my club fitter. I don't have trouble with my longer irons, but the distance from the ball feels perfect on the 7 for easily going after it when I need to. I'd love to experiment with fixed length from the 7 down to the 2 as well as progressive but much reduced difference ala Bobby Jones as mentioned much earlier in the thread.



    To be fair, the biggest barrier to entry is all the fitting involved. The one length with zero progression is absolutely nutty to me and seems to fly in the face of really letting science do the talking the way DeChambeau claims. Useful science and technology would take the big picture into account, and saying that one size doesn't fit all but my version of one size fits all works seems like empty marketing and ego. For most I think the best results would come from what I mentioned above, either a much less staggered set, or progression down to a 7 or so then fixed length. Regardless, either with still require the right shaft and fitting/weighting adjustments to make them work. That means a lot of testing, which means a lot of money, and I don't know that most companies are going to dive into that kind of investment without seeing the demand or knowing they can create it. So far it hasn't seemed to really be a hit for Cobra, but again, that may owe to their marketing and their presence of only a single ambassador for them on the tour, and one who doesn't come across as nearly as personable and inviting as someone like Fowler.



    I can tell you that if I had access to a lab at a manufacturer that I was wild for, i.e., favored amateur or tour status, I would put in the hours with a team to test the efficacy of variations that made sense. Simulation tech is to the point that moments of inertia, COG, impact angles and lie, expected turf interaction/drag, and many other factors could be pared down to the right ballpark before mocking up a few sets for testing.



    Anyway, my take is that DeChambeau certainly has gotten talk going in the right direction with more people being open to finding out what's truly best for their game, and I'm glad for that. I think a lot of players may benefit in time, but the current marketable iteration misses the mark for most. There's a happy middle ground in there for the majority of golfers, so I hope we get to a point that more people are able to experience it.
  • Rich DouglasRich Douglas Members Posts: 324 ✭✭
    GSDriver wrote:


    The few I know who tried SL, traded them in shortly thereafter. I'm thinking would need to devote some serious range time to get adapted to.




    I was hooked the very first time I hit them on the range. That was more than two years ago and I haven't touched my traditional irons ever since. Not even once.



    The 4-iron took a bit of getting used to the shorter length, but that was a mental thing. It just seemed impossible that this little club would allow me to hit it as far as a traditional 4-iron. Until it did. I got over that one really quick.



    More difficult was adjusting to the longer wedges. I found myself backing off those quite a bit. Also, they had less bounce than my previous set and I wasn't being aggressive in my strikes. In fact, I still struggle with being aggressive with the gap wedge--too often I leave it 10 yards short. I then drop a second ball and BOOM, it flies as it should. I'm hoping some concentrated practice will get me past that.



    The sand and lob wedges are another story because of the need to open the face. Because they're so flat--at an 8-iron length their lie angles are flatter than traditional wedges--you can either choke down or open the face, but not both. If you choke down you make them more upright than they're designed to be--which you can get away with. But if you also open the face the toe comes into play and drags in the turf. So if you're okay with hitting flop shots with a longer shaft and flatter lie, you'll be fine. I can do that with the sand wedge, but not the lob wedge, so I carry a traditional LW. I kept the SW because I like the feel of it from the fairway; I hit most sand shots with the LW anyway.



    In short, it took almost no time to adjust to SL irons with one exception, and it opened me up to further exploration as well.
    Driver: Titleist 917 D3 (Aldila Rogue MAX 65)
    2W: TM Mini Driver
    3H: Ping G410 (19 degrees)
    Irons: Wishon Sterling Single Length 4I-LW
    Putter: Bloodline (mallet)
    Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft
  • Rich DouglasRich Douglas Members Posts: 324 ✭✭
    SirFuego wrote:


    Let's face it. If Tiger Woods announced tomorrow that he was going to start playing SL irons, retailers probably couldn't keep SL irons in stock. If Titleist, TM, or Callaway started making them, they would probably gain in popularity as well. Although I don't see any of those three companies building SL irons unless they sign a PGA Tour pro that insists on playing them.



    Regardless of what you think of him, Bryson (as of today at least) does not have the personality to sway the egos of the typical amateur golfer to try something "different" that might actually help their game. There are a ton of golfers out there that readily accept that they aren't good enough to play the same irons as the pros, so they rely on technology (SGI or GI) irons to improve their game. Yet those same golfers cannot wrap their head around the fact that technology can enable a 7I length 4I to go just as far as a regular length 4I and a 7I length PW can have similar flight to a regular length PW -- likely because "none of the pros" play single length irons (or at least their favorite pros don't). The logic against SL just doesn't make sense.



    Now SL irons aren't for everyone, if you tried them, and found "traditional" irons to work better, then go for it. But the fact that people immediately dismiss them, despite wanting to get the "best irons for them", is truly baffling.




    Correct on all counts.



    Add Ping to the influencers.



    No professional who makes a living doing this is going to risk it all by switching to single-length clubs. At that level, everything has to be perfect. Bubba Watson lost a year because he switched to Vice. Payne Stewart almost fell off the map when he signed a contract with Top Flite. And so it goes.



    It will take more Brysons--kids who grew up with SL irons. But it's a chicken-and-egg thing. Which kids are going to even have access to these clubs, much less have the support around them to do it? Bryson broke through that with his own insights and persistence. He bet it all before he'd even accumulated anything. Who will be next?
    Driver: Titleist 917 D3 (Aldila Rogue MAX 65)
    2W: TM Mini Driver
    3H: Ping G410 (19 degrees)
    Irons: Wishon Sterling Single Length 4I-LW
    Putter: Bloodline (mallet)
    Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft
  • Mr. GrumpyMr. Grumpy The Quintana Changeup, sit em dwn Members Posts: 2,294 ✭✭
    I chose SL not because of Bryson playing them, but because it is what I felt I wanted all along. Cobra/Bryson finally made it convenient.
  • Rich DouglasRich Douglas Members Posts: 324 ✭✭
    Golfjack wrote:


    It just seems to be that they are making things harder by making the short irons longer. Short irons are great, easier to hit due to their shorter length. People should have the length of their clubs limited to the longest clubs they can hit comfortably. Progression up to say a 7 iron and then everything above (6-3 iron) is 7 iron length.




    That would miss have the advantage of SL irons.



    SL irons bring two advantages and two (possible) detriments, or trade-offs.



    On the plus side, they allow us to groove one iron swing. Every club looks the same, feels the same, swings the same, requires the same setup and ball placement. This consistency is throughout the set. The other advantage--the one people seem to glom onto, is the shorter low-lofted irons. And yes, my Sterling 4-iron is a lot easier to hit than was my Ping 4-iron.



    The possible trade-offs? First--and the one that doesn't draw as much attention--is the lower ball flight from low-lofted SL irons, particularly the lowest-lofted (4-iron in Sterlings). While often true, it's not that big of a deal. I don't hit that club to sky it, and stopping the ball comes more from spin that descent angle. But it is real, even if I don't think it's a big deal.



    The other trade-off--the one people fixate on--is hitting longer high-lofted irons and wedges. But speaking from experience, that feeling quickly fades. Grooving one iron swing will have that effect. Going to traditional-length shorter clubs will negate the one-length advantage throughout your whole set.



    I had the same questions when I first considered making the switch. I, too, though it would be a better idea to go SL down to the 8I and VL down through the wedges. Best of both worlds, right? Wrong. Tom Wishon himself convinced me that one-length throughout the set was the way to go when I questioned him on it. He was right. It turns out that the shorter 4-5-6-7-irons aren't the real advantage, and the longer 9-iron and wedges aren't a real problem. The real advantage is the one-length, one-setup, one-swing approach. Using traditional lengths through part of the set ruins this for the entire set.
    Driver: Titleist 917 D3 (Aldila Rogue MAX 65)
    2W: TM Mini Driver
    3H: Ping G410 (19 degrees)
    Irons: Wishon Sterling Single Length 4I-LW
    Putter: Bloodline (mallet)
    Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft
  • Rich DouglasRich Douglas Members Posts: 324 ✭✭
    CasualLie wrote:


    I was under the impression BDC went to SL irons to better match his swing he was trying to achieve. I




    The SL clubs and the single-plane swing are independent concepts, both pointed towards the same goal: consistency. But one does not depend upon nor drive the other. You can be a two-plane swinger with SL clubs and you can be a one-plane swinger with VL clubs. It doesn't matter.



    Bryson also uses jumbo grips to reduce wrist action, another variable he doesn't want to manage. He also feels his upright swing plane is more accurate (a la Moe Norman), which is why his lie angle on his irons is so steep.



    My point is that these are independent choices towards a common goal. You can do any, some, all, or none of these things and still play golf.
    Driver: Titleist 917 D3 (Aldila Rogue MAX 65)
    2W: TM Mini Driver
    3H: Ping G410 (19 degrees)
    Irons: Wishon Sterling Single Length 4I-LW
    Putter: Bloodline (mallet)
    Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft
  • WidespreadPanicWidespreadPanic Wizard in the Corner Members Posts: 4,826 ✭✭
    Does anybody know the head weights on Brysons clubs? Is every club the exact same weight?
    Taylormade M2 ('17) 10.5*
    Cobra F7 15.5*
    Taylormade M1 ('17) 19*
    Mizuno MP18 Fli Hi 4i
    Mizuno MP18 SC 5-PW
    Cleveland RTX 588 2.0 52**, 56**, 60**
    Taylormade TP Red Ardmore 3
    Taylormade TPx
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,403 ✭✭

    CasualLie wrote:


    I was under the impression BDC went to SL irons to better match his swing he was trying to achieve. I




    The SL clubs and the single-plane swing are independent concepts, both pointed towards the same goal: consistency. But one does not depend upon nor drive the other. You can be a two-plane swinger with SL clubs and you can be a one-plane swinger with VL clubs. It doesn't matter.



    Bryson also uses jumbo grips to reduce wrist action, another variable he doesn't want to manage. He also feels his upright swing plane is more accurate (a la Moe Norman), which is why his lie angle on his irons is so steep.



    My point is that these are independent choices towards a common goal. You can do any, some, all, or none of these things and still play golf.




    I get what you are saying about the independent nature. But apparently, BDC doesn't exactly follow your logic.



    https://www.golf.com/the-knockdown/2018/12/13/bryson-dechambeau-single-length-iron-revolution/



    So the story goes, reading TGM got him to single plane idea and he quickly realized that is not very effective with variable length clubs. So to him, they do go hand in hand.



    It doesn't really matter to me. I am not going to get equipment, or change my swing, because I saw someone on TV winning. By and large, those guys (and gals) are machines hitting shots as a direct result of hitting a ridiculous number of balls and practice hours. A long time ago I thought about why not have a 4 iron with 7 iron length since I can handle the 7 iron so well, and the response when I asked around was it being a total pain to get the swingweights, headweights, lofts, lie angles, etc...to line up right. Very few, if anyone, was up to the task. Now many years later BDC has brought awareness back to this, and technology has made it much more reasonable.



    As I await my SL Forged set from Cobra this week, I am a little concerned about the apparent low ball flight on long irons and dealing with a longer PW in hand, but not really too concerned. I am open minded to the possibilities that Cobra got it right. Even though another poster is claiming you are defeating the purpose of SL irons by not playing your wedges at the longer length, I am not buying that either. If I don't feel comfortable with the PW, GW length, then I will send them back to Cobra and go for something more traditional. While my goal is to reduce variables and take advantage of one swing, I cannot lose sight of the big picture which is covering different distances is priority one, and wedges are by and large feel clubs with a huge variety of shots / partial shots. I don't want a club from 70 yards I swing like a 7 iron.



    Worse case scenario...I spent more money on irons than I ever spent (well...since the days I was super ho and only played the best forgings from JP), and if it does not work out, someone will get a great deal on BST!
  • Rich DouglasRich Douglas Members Posts: 324 ✭✭
    edited Jan 6, 2019 9:41am #70
    CasualLie wrote:


    I get what you are saying about the independent nature. But apparently, BDC doesn't exactly follow your logic.



    https://www.golf.com...ron-revolution/



    So the story goes, reading TGM got him to single plane idea and he quickly realized that is not very effective with variable length clubs. So to him, they do go hand in hand.



    It doesn't really matter to me. I am not going to get equipment, or change my swing, because I saw someone on TV winning. By and large, those guys (and gals) are machines hitting shots as a direct result of hitting a ridiculous number of balls and practice hours. A long time ago I thought about why not have a 4 iron with 7 iron length since I can handle the 7 iron so well, and the response when I asked around was it being a total pain to get the swingweights, headweights, lofts, lie angles, etc...to line up right. Very few, if anyone, was up to the task. Now many years later BDC has brought awareness back to this, and technology has made it much more reasonable.



    As I await my SL Forged set from Cobra this week, I am a little concerned about the apparent low ball flight on long irons and dealing with a longer PW in hand, but not really too concerned. I am open minded to the possibilities that Cobra got it right. Even though another poster is claiming you are defeating the purpose of SL irons by not playing your wedges at the longer length, I am not buying that either. If I don't feel comfortable with the PW, GW length, then I will send them back to Cobra and go for something more traditional. While my goal is to reduce variables and take advantage of one swing, I cannot lose sight of the big picture which is covering different distances is priority one, and wedges are by and large feel clubs with a huge variety of shots / partial shots. I don't want a club from 70 yards I swing like a 7 iron.



    Worse case scenario...I spent more money on irons than I ever spent (well...since the days I was super ho and only played the best forgings from JP), and if it does not work out, someone will get a great deal on BST!




    It appears a LOT of people using SL clubs do go with traditional wedges. I've gone back and forth with the SW and LW myself. Cobras, designed around a 7-iron length, will be more difficult to adjust to with the wedges--the flat lie angles have you standing really far from the ball, which feels weird with the SW and LW. Even my Wishons at a half-inch shorter (and, thus, more upright) felt strange at first. And I still can't make the SW work around the greens well enough to keep it in the bag. But hitting it with a full swing from the fairway (90 yards, swung line an 8-iron in my case) is a lot of fun! But its lack of utility around the greens was just a bridge too far. Hitting open-faced lobs while standing that far from the ball and, thus, with a flatter swing and attack angle was ineffective. Choking down on the club while opening the face gave me a steeper attack angle--better for lob shots--but caused the toe to drag. So I put the Sterling LW away and returned to a traditional 64-degree LW.



    So, even though I was the poster who made the comment about defeating the purpose, I'll be the first one to agree that there is a limit to be found somewhere. With me, it was the physical impracticality of the LW.



    And for everyone, there is a limit at the top, too. At some point your swing speed will be insufficient to create the gaps needed between clubs. That's why Sterling doesn't make a club flatter than a 4-iron--most people can't generate the swing speed necessary to carry it farther than the 5-iron. Cobra, designed around a shaft that's 1/2-inch longer, has the same limitation, but at the 3-iron. But a lot of players will find they can't hit those clubs and will need to play traditional hybrids instead.



    Good luck in your quest!



    (BTW, a great number of golfers are single-plane, yet none of them use SL clubs. Bryson may have made a connection between the two, but almost no one else has found it necessary.)
    Driver: Titleist 917 D3 (Aldila Rogue MAX 65)
    2W: TM Mini Driver
    3H: Ping G410 (19 degrees)
    Irons: Wishon Sterling Single Length 4I-LW
    Putter: Bloodline (mallet)
    Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft
  • PedronNiallPedronNiall Members Posts: 2,128 ✭✭
    I'm glad to see so much real world input here. The issues around the short irons that show up weren't even the major ones that made me want a happy middle ground. I've always felt comfortable setting up on those and liked the shorter swing that they promote. I don't want to lose the ability to open up wedges for pitches and flop shots around the green. I like the way the bounce lets those clubs pinch the ball and get it up without digging whether you've got the face wide open or not. Losing that kind of flexibility with scoring clubs is not something I'd accept. A graduated set from 7 to SW/LW with fixed length below is something I'd be happy to give a go. I just can't ever see giving up the flexibility wedges bring from full shots to soft ones right around the green for the sake of adapting to one swing when the slightly changing position and plane from short irons to wedges isn't where most golfers find their game suffering.



    I completely understand that it's easier to market that way when your spokesman swears by it, but it's going to forever be a nonstarter for me. I think in the end if I go this route it will be via a lot of work with a custom fitter and likely something more akin to what Jones did. I doubt any mass market heads will offer enough material and flexibility for bending and regrinds to get the lies and sole bounce just right for one length in the long irons.



    I'm really glad for the possibilities this opens up, I just still find it off that a player and company say one size fits all is wrong unless it's their one size fits all. It seems on course experiences related here and in the SL thread confirm that it isn't the magic bullet in the rigid form that it's being offered.
  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members Posts: 1,403 ✭✭




    I completely understand that it's easier to market that way when your spokesman swears by it, but it's going to forever be a nonstarter for me. I think in the end if I go this route it will be via a lot of work with a custom fitter and likely something more akin to what Jones did. I doubt any mass market heads will offer enough material and flexibility for bending and regrinds to get the lies and sole bounce just right for one length in the long irons.



    I'm really glad for the possibilities this opens up, I just still find it off that a player and company say one size fits all is wrong unless it's their one size fits all. It seems on course experiences related here and in the SL thread confirm that it isn't the magic bullet in the rigid form that it's being offered.




    I would think at some point 3D printing iron heads to the exact weights/specs/grinds is not far off in terms of being economically viable.



  • Rich DouglasRich Douglas Members Posts: 324 ✭✭


    I'm glad to see so much real world input here. The issues around the short irons that show up weren't even the major ones that made me want a happy middle ground. I've always felt comfortable setting up on those and liked the shorter swing that they promote. I don't want to lose the ability to open up wedges for pitches and flop shots around the green. I like the way the bounce lets those clubs pinch the ball and get it up without digging whether you've got the face wide open or not. Losing that kind of flexibility with scoring clubs is not something I'd accept.




    The problem I find is that you must either (a) hit lob shots with a full-length club (at a 7- or 8-iron length) or (b) choke down and hit shots only with the club face squared. If you do both, you bring the toe into play because the lie angle is so flat. If you hit it a full length, you're lobbing with a club that requires you to use a more shallow attack angle than one usually uses for flops and sand shots. The lie angle is 63 degrees. The lie angle on my traditional SW is two degrees more upright. That matters. I use the Sterling SW for fairway shots between 60-115 yards, and for long bunker shots. I use a traditional LW for shorter shots, flop shots, and some chips. I just couldn't get the Sterling LW to work with that flat attack angle.
    Driver: Titleist 917 D3 (Aldila Rogue MAX 65)
    2W: TM Mini Driver
    3H: Ping G410 (19 degrees)
    Irons: Wishon Sterling Single Length 4I-LW
    Putter: Bloodline (mallet)
    Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft
Sign In or Register to comment.