2 Rules That Need To Be Enforced On Tour

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  • shanxshanx Members Posts: 840 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These guys play a different game, for higher stakes.
    Ever watch an MLB game? Takes forever. End of an NBA game can make 2 minutes last for 30, same for NFL. Much more at stake for the pros.

    Last few years, at the public courses I play, the rounds have been much shorter than 4 hours, most times they are close to 3. I play on weekend afternoons, usually tee off around 3 3:30.

    Last week I played 9 holes in 1:15.

  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Outlier said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    While I don’t disagree with either of your ultimate points, you arrive at them in a disingenuous fashion. You say the 40 second rule needs to be enforced, but at all times not just when on the clock. Well, that’s not the rule. You also say players are following Scott and Langer by anchoring putters to their chest. Well, they aren’t following either of those guys if they are anchoring, neither anchor.

    Seriously? ....and so does Scott McCarron. That's what MY EYES tell me, and I happen to believe them. your results may vary, but the truth is they are cheating in "plain site".

    So based on your eyes the rest of the field is compliant in their charting and are ok with losing money to cheaters.

  • tideridertiderider Members Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @manku said:
    I like the slow play...it's nice seeing pros get steamy over waiting just like I do at my local muni sometimes!
    I don't find pace of play any worse than 30 years ago...if anything, it's better. Sure, there are the occasionally groups you want to nuke, but for the most part I'd say the POP issues are mainly related to competitive golf.

    i disagree, but fail to see why people watching tv are irritated by slow play ... they don't show holmes or anyone else going over their entire preshot routine ... they cut to them once they feel they're ready to go, unless it's a tight race on the back 9 on sunday ... no one knows who's playing slow on tv unless announcers mention it ... but slow play for amateurs is pervasive ... might be two to a cart, might be folks trying to emulate what they think a pga tour player does ... but it's a 5 hour round that should take 3, or 3.5 at the most ...

  • WidespreadPanicWidespreadPanic Wizard in the Corner Members Posts: 4,889 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Why would they ban chipping on the green? That’s a bad idea.

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  • OutlierOutlier OUTLIER Members Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoGoErky said:

    @Outlier said:

    @golfandfishing said:
    While I don’t disagree with either of your ultimate points, you arrive at them in a disingenuous fashion. You say the 40 second rule needs to be enforced, but at all times not just when on the clock. Well, that’s not the rule. You also say players are following Scott and Langer by anchoring putters to their chest. Well, they aren’t following either of those guys if they are anchoring, neither anchor.

    Seriously? ....and so does Scott McCarron. That's what MY EYES tell me, and I happen to believe them. your results may vary, but the truth is they are cheating in "plain site".

    So based on your eyes the rest of the field is compliant in their charting and are ok with losing money to cheaters.

    Just like with slow play, the other players (for the most part) don't want the onus to be on them to "call out" the culprits, they rather the "authorities" do it. There are exceptions- as we have witnessed recently with Brooks and others finally willing to go on record admonishing the tour to take some concrete action on slow play. Brandel Chamblee did "put his name on it" and specifically called out McCaron and Langer as you know. Chamblee intimated and I believe many others agree but don't want to go on the record.....and finally it seems pretty obvious that the tour is extremely homogeneous and very much like the fictional "Lake Wobegone, -where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average." Nobody dares to rock the boat!

  • Awsi DoogerAwsi Dooger Members Posts: 4,233 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @sui generis said:

    @2over said:
    Watching the horror show of slow play that is J.B. Holmes caused this post. The rule that you have 40 seconds to play a shot needs to be enforced. Always. On everyone--and not just when a group is "out of position". They're all out of position because this rule is not enforced! A round of golf with professional players should not ever take longer than 3.5 hours--never, never, no, not ever, no, not once. Slow play is destroying golf, making it horrible to watch as well as play.
    Also, many players are following Langer and Adam Scott in anchoring long putters to their chests. Several at the Open.
    While I think the anchoring ban is a dumb rule and poorly written, failing to enforce it invites anarchy in the game. While I'd be OK with just removing the rule (better than having it and letting some players cheat), I think long putters are a bad look and remove an original core skill from the game (controlling the twitchy muscles in your hands/wrists), so my personal preference would be on re-writing the rule this way: "When making a stroke on the putting green, a player may only use the club in his/her bag with the shortest shaft." (this also should prevent chipping on the green; you're welcome :smile:

    Why does anyone care how that TV reality show called the PGA Tour conducts its business? Furthermore:

    a) Your statement that 40 seconds is a Rule is absolutely false.
    b) You are again completely wrong. Langer, Mc Carron, and Scott are compliant with Rule 10.

    Go away and talk about Ricky's white belts or something you could at least appear to have some knowledge of.

    The dumb aspect is anyone who actually believes they anchor.

    But the base problem was that Mike Davis and others focused on anchoring as the cheat, and very few people bothered to notice that non-anchored long putters work perfectly well. Virtually identical. I posted that here years before the rules change, after some experimentation both ways. It actually frees you up to give a more athletic pass, especially on midrange putts. Guys with legitimate yips will have somewhat more trouble on non-anchored short putts.

    Mike Davis somehow thought he was removing the long putter. Meanwhile all he did was eliminate the belly putter in favor of the arm lock method.

    Eventually more and more players will switch to the long putter. It is comical right now that only a handful of non-senior pros are using it. Throwing away money.

  • freeze16172002freeze16172002 Members Posts: 163 ✭✭✭

    you should play ready golf at all levels.

  • wobgonwobgon Members Posts: 7,521 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @2over said:
    Watching the horror show of slow play that is J.B. Holmes caused this post. The rule that you have 40 seconds to play a shot needs to be enforced. Always. On everyone--and not just when a group is "out of position". They're all out of position because this rule is not enforced! A round of golf with professional players should not ever take longer than 3.5 hours--never, never, no, not ever, no, not once. Slow play is destroying golf, making it horrible to watch as well as play.
    Also, many players are following Langer and Adam Scott in anchoring long putters to their chests. Several at the Open.
    While I think the anchoring ban is a dumb rule and poorly written, failing to enforce it invites anarchy in the game. While I'd be OK with just removing the rule (better than having it and letting some players cheat), I think long putters are a bad look and remove an original core skill from the game (controlling the twitchy muscles in your hands/wrists), so my personal preference would be on re-writing the rule this way: "When making a stroke on the putting green, a player may only use the club in his/her bag with the shortest shaft." (this also should prevent chipping on the green; you're welcome :smile:

    Don't forget to throw in there that members on golf forums should at least think a little bit before starting ridiculous threads.

  • 15th Club15th Club Members Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

  • dan360dan360 Paisano Members Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 28, 2019 5:04pm #42

    Why the drama about the long putter and why does it really matter if it’s anchored or not?

    They’re a pain in the **** to use and a last resort for people who can’t figure their brain out. I haven’t seen anyone light it up with a long putter and Langer’s Senior, sorry, Champion’s, Tour success isn’t because of that putter style. He’s not putting any better than he used to with a “regular” putter before his brain lost control of his brain.

    Let them anchor. BFD

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  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

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  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

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  • 15th Club15th Club Members Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    About the last two posts on this page...

    I had always thought that the best way to express my contempt for long putts was to say to their owners; “I feel so sorry for you; how bad did your putting get, before you reverted to that?”

    But I’m not sure how I could ever say that to Langer.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,837 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @gvogel said:

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

    Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?
    That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

    PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,089 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 28, 2019 6:51pm #47

    What the heck do we care how long it takes pro golfers to play? If the camera is on one group for too long, fast forward through it just as with commercials.

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  • Ignatius ReillyIgnatius Reilly Members Posts: 441 ✭✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @gvogel said:

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

    Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?
    That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

    PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

    Agreed, it's not cheating if they're following the rules in place at the time.

    Anyways, you'd still have the exact same problem as some have right now: They think McCarron and Langher are anchoring, but they're actually leaving a very small gap between chest and club. Hard to see. So imagine trying to see if there's actually any movement at the top end of the putter. What if there's very little movement? I'll bet there's a little movement at the top by both McCarron and Langher even now.

    Having said that, the whole anchoring thing is still much ado about nothing. I still think they made a mistake allowing mallet putters and it's been downhill ever since.

  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @15th Club said:
    About the last two posts on this page...

    I had always thought that the best way to express my contempt for long putts was to say to their owners; “I feel so sorry for you; how bad did your putting get, before you reverted to that?”

    But I’m not sure how I could ever say that to Langer.

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  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shilgy said:

    @gvogel said:

    @gvogel said:

    @15th Club said:
    I’ve always hated long putters and anchoring.

    The problem is how to write the the rule. I never liked the current anti-anchoring rule and still don’t. I do like the idea of abandoning all attempts to ban the act of anchoring, and instead focusing on putter length. Are there golfers (for instance, with bad backs) who must have a putter of a certain length, even with a normal grip and stroke? How short can we make the limit? I saw a suggestion of 38”. What kind of anchoring can be done with a 38” putter? For a 5’4” LPGA player, that could be a belly putter, right?

    I’m all in for a workable rule change. The problem is how to write the rule.

    It burns me when I see Bernhard Langer or Scott McCarron make a whole bunch of putts with the cheater stick. I would re-write the rule to define a stroke that is "levered", that is, one in which one hand is stationary and the other contributes the stroke. And I would ban "levering" strokes, just as croquet strokes, pushes and drags are also banned.

    Or they could redefine anchoring. Anchoring would be defined as a stroke during which the top end of the putter doesn't move. That would ban belly and the long stick. Because, even when the hand is held slightly off the chest, the left arm and forearm are anchored.

    Can you possibly imagine enforcing a rule like that? Different players hands move differently in the putting stroke. Those that are more wristy, like Arnie back in the day, barely move that top hand. Are they potentially in violation by your rule?
    That is what 15 is saying.... It's a nightmare to write a rule that works.

    PS the guys you mentioned are not cheating, nor is the putter they are using a "cheater stick".

    Look, if you can't see the difference between Arnie back in the day with his wristy stroke, and Langer and McCarron today with the broom stick, I have pity on you.

    There must be a way to define a rule that will allow Arnie, and not allow what Langer and McCarron are doing.

    Arnie was playing a golf stroke. Langer is doing something else. I remember having brunch with my son and a former girlfriend during Sunday at the Masters. She saw Adam Scott with his long putter, and asked "is that legal?" Out of the mouth of babes.

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  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MaineMariner said:
    Ban the claw/pencil grip. I don't like how it looks and it takes the twitchy trail hand muscles out of the stroke.

    Ban 460 cc driver heads. They look ridiculous and are way too easy to hit.

    Ban lob wedges. They make flop shots too easy.

    See how dumb this sounds?

    You're off point. If I use a claw/pencil grip, both of my hands are involved with making the stroke. Same as left hand low, or pointer finger down the shaft - any number of grips. Both hands are working together.

    Ban 460 cc driver heads? I'm all for that. Bifurcate the rules. See who wants to play the more difficult drivers that the pros will have to play. You're on your own there. It will take more talent to play consistently, which is what we expect from elite golfers.

    Ban lob wedges? Who cares. It's one of 14 clubs, and few have the talent to use them.

    I say ban the long putter in some way, because it isn't a golf stroke. Maybe they will find their way to putt-putt.

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  • gvogelgvogel Members Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Any fool can see that what Langer and McCarron are doing with a long putter isn't remotely close to the rest of the golf strokes that they, and the rest of the field, are making.

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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,804 ClubWRX

    How about you get 40 seconds to play a shot, and you get a "bank" of an additional 5 or 10 minutes that you can use however you see fit?

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  • AndersUKAndersUK Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.
    This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

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  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Jul 29, 2019 9:33am #56

    @AndersUK said:
    The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.
    This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

    This bans the claw grip or any variation of it.

  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Why does anyone think R10.1b needs fixing? It's been around for several years and survived intact in the 2019 Rules modernization effort. The unanchored long putter is a pretty rare sight, generally only employed by a very small group of older folks with bad backs or an essential tremor. Furthermore, those tasked with the Rules enforcement don't seem bothered by the language of the Rule. The Rule as written seems to have solved the problem, the anchored belly method, that it was aimed at.

    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • Hot Rod 71Hot Rod 71 #TheWRX ClubWRX, BST Volunteer Mods Posts: 8,922 ClubWRX

    I think one reason slow play has become such an issue is a result of how networks deliver their coverage. If the networks didn't show guys like JB taking 2 minutes to make a stroke, we probably would know he took 2 minutes to make a stroke.

    I've been to numerous tour events and a 5+ hour round is normal, especially with threesomes. In my observation groups move around the course rather quickly. They tend to take the most time on and around the greens, and on par 3 tee boxes. They all walk briskly from shot to shot and don't spend a lot of time teeing off on par 4s and 5s - they usually know what club they are going to hit; they pull it, line up and let it rip.

    One thing that seems to cause back-ups on the course at tour events is the need for a rules official every time a player has a rules question. I suppose past incidents of viewers calling in rules infractions has made many players gun-shy. I've seen players request a rules official for simple things like where to drop along a hazard margin. It grinds play to a halt.

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  • AndersUKAndersUK Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @GoGoErky said:

    @AndersUK said:
    The easiest way to define the rule is to make it compulsory for the right hand to be in contact with the left hand at the moment the club makes contact with the ball.
    This would eliminate conventional anchoring and the anchoring of the the arm with the opposite hand.

    This bans the claw grip or any variation of it.

    That is not correct. Many already have hands touching with that grip and for those that don't touching the top of the right hand with the the bottom of the left would not be that big a change.

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  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    For the most part I like this, and for us folks playing our golf pretty reasonable to enforce/monitor. But when galleries are involved it’s subjective when that clock starts. If Rickie Fowler hits it to 2 feet on 16 in Scottsdale on Saturday the place is going to nutso and it would take 15 minutes to clear the green of the bras and panties that got thrown. He’s playing with everyone’s favorite Ian Poulter who catches a rash of sh— from the inebriated bros when he tees it up. When does his 40 seconds start?

    @Obee said:
    How about you get 40 seconds to play a shot, and you get a "bank" of an additional 5 or 10 minutes that you can use however you see fit?

  • Oliver KlozoffOliver Klozoff Members Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    edited Jul 29, 2019 12:41pm #61

    I don't care what club players use on the green. Seems a stupid rule to me.

    Slow play - I think the problem is the disrespect to the person they are playing with. Being behind a slow player is frustrating. But playing with a slow player is HORRIBLE because you feel like you always need to cover for their slowness. At the British, if JB wasn't paired with one of the fastest players on tour he could have been 3-4 holes behind. JB and players like him don't understand this. They think the other player should just do what he is and stare at the upcoming shot for a minute, take as long as needed, and if they are a couple holes behind so what. They don't get these other players are covering for them. Players speak up all the time about slow play. But the PGA Tour does nothing about it. Heck, Sabatini was chided for taking action about it. I think the shot clock is the only thing that is going to work in the long run. From the first tee shot, you get 45 second to play every shot. Don't see it ever happening though.

    There is another strategy in tournaments that I learned from another player. I was in a US Mid Am qualifier where me and another player were paired with a brutally slow golfer. We got over a hole behind right out of the gate. On #2 the fast guy asked the rules official to put us on the clock. He said we weren't out of position yet. Fast player then intentionally takes forever to play #2. He took about a minute for a 6 inch tap in just to make sure we'd get way behind. So we are on 3 tee and group ahead can be seen on 5 green. USGA puts us on the clock. I forget what the pace of play rule was for that tournament, but we only got off the clock briefly the rest of the day. We were timed seemingly on every shot. The slow player had no choice but to player quicker since they had the stopwatch on him. Maybe that's what Koepka should have done. Intentionally get them 2 holes behind so JB was on the clock all day.

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