Matt Kuchar was 100% right in that embedded ball argument

[QuigleyDU]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > > >

> > > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Ok I guess

> >

> > Maybe my sense of humor is not quite fully charged today... I thought that was funny.

>

> I didn't quite get it! Maybe it was. I'm 37 I'm not cool anymore I may have missed the joke

 

Well, I am 39 and was probably never cool.

[J13]

I just dropped it on Youtube.

 

 

[gioguy21]

yup. does exactly what i thought it did.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

in what other sport do you get to have a 10 minute conversation continually second guessing and disagreeing with a referee after they've made their ruling all while completely stopping play. i don't care what kuchar thought. he called in the ref and they made their decision. he should've moved on. another example of kuchar's ego and disregard for everyone else. this guy's reputation has done a 180

[dlygrisse]

> @buckeyefl said:

> I know people are focused on this because of who's involved and an irrational dislike of said player but trust me, this happens more often than you think. I'm not even sure why the kept the camera on it. File it under "if never hurts to ask"

>

> You'll notice the players know what words to use when making their arguments but rarely do they get one over on the regular tour officials.

 

Several points here.

"irrational dislike" probably.

"happens more than you think" I seriously doubt it, I've been playing golf since 1984 and I don't ever recall it happening.

 

"never hurts to ask" True, but I think the point is, is that he would't let it go. He asked for a ruling, got one, then kept arguing a point that he was pretty obviously wrong about, held up play and made a fool of himself. If he would have just asked for a ruling, gotten the ruling and accepting the ruling then I would have had zero issue with it. The entire process was captured on camera and broadcast, the networks must really really have it out for the guy, because they made him look like a tool.....just by showing how he behaves.

[bladehunter]

> @MaineMariner said:

> I re-watched the only replay I can find (on pgamemes' Instagram) on a larger screen and am officially unsure of what happened to the ball. It definitely hops up, then forward, then rolls back a tad. It may have very well ended up in its own pitch mark.

>

> It's really a shame that the PGA Tour shamefully scrubbed the video from the internet, so all we're left with is a poor quality Instagram post.

 

> @MaineMariner said:

> I re-watched the only replay I can find (on pgamemes' Instagram) on a larger screen and am officially unsure of what happened to the ball. It definitely hops up, then forward, then rolls back a tad. It may have very well ended up in its own pitch mark.

>

> It's really a shame that the PGA Tour shamefully scrubbed the video from the internet, so all we're left with is a poor quality Instagram post.

 

Pretty fair indicator that they know the call wasnt as cut and dry as they made it out to be.

[Texas1]

If he’d only have hit it in a bush, stomped around to find a sprinkler head, all would have been good ?

[OldTomMorris]

> @bladehunter said:

> Pretty fair indicator that they know the call wasnt as cut and dry as they made it out to be.

 

Or they removed to protect the player/PGA Tour brand as the Twitter mob was circling on Kuchar and calling him a cheat.

[J13]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Pretty fair indicator that they know the call wasnt as cut and dry as they made it out to be.

>

> Or they removed to protect the player/PGA Tour brand as the Twitter mob was circling on Kuchar and calling him a cheat.

 

Kuchar is a cheap cheat. Say that 5 times real fast

[King_Slender]

OK, just to level set on this whole scenario.

 

1) Immelman gave bad information, saying that the ball rolled forward from where it landed. In looking at the video, it clearly did not.

2) Not having any other information to go by, Kuchar made the "second pitch mark" argument - he was wrong about that. But it was also impossible for him to know that WASN'T his pitch mark, other than relying on Immelman's comments.

3) Upon viewing the video and seeing that there are no other pitch marks in the area, it's clear his ball landed, bounced up and ended up back in the pitch mark made by his ball.

 

While you may think Kuchar was tool for arguing what he did, the facts are that the ball was in his pitch mark and, even if the ball rolled back into the pitch mark and didn't plug, part of the ball was below the playing surface and he was due relief.

[Terry Gold]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @"Terry Gold" said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > >

> > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > >

> > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> >

> > You mean like how some people don't remember how that Bubba ruling actually turned out?

>

> What am I getting wrong? Was he not given relief?

 

No, he wasn't. Ants are/were not deemed a burrowing animal. 2015 PGA. Bubba was very Bubba in course of the discussion with the rules official.

[NoodleSalad]

Oh look, Eddie Pepperell is back with more "hot takes" from his barcalounger in the UK. You'd think he'd shut it for a while after his previous tweet about getting ultra-violent with American fans who are too loud, but no. And people in this forum just clap like seals for everything he says. I hope he gets heckled to pieces next time he's here. I'll do it myself if I'm in the area.

[Vardon Grip]

Clearly a higher power is dispensing justice as ordained by karmaic law. Time to move on. On a side note, I said “cheap cheat” 3 times and it summoned El Tucán, holding my bag. I just tipped him and he disappeared. So, careful.

[Ferguson]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ok I guess

> > >

> > > Maybe my sense of humor is not quite fully charged today... I thought that was funny.

> >

> > I didn't quite get it! Maybe it was. I'm 37 I'm not cool anymore I may have missed the joke

>

> Well, I am 39 and was probably never cool.

 

Seeing that the written text didn't quite pertain, he felt the mere mention of this "character" was funny.

 

 

Not a complete swing and a miss, but certainly something I would call a foul ball.

 

 

 

[MtlJeff]

> @"Terry Gold" said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > > @"Terry Gold" said:

> > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > >

> > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > >

> > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > >

> > > You mean like how some people don't remember how that Bubba ruling actually turned out?

> >

> > What am I getting wrong? Was he not given relief?

>

> No, he wasn't. Ants are/were not deemed a burrowing animal. 2015 PGA. Bubba was very Bubba in course of the discussion with the rules official.

 

I was referring to a ruling I thought he got at the Olympics, though maybe I am confusing things now. Hey I might be wrong. But as I mentioned earlier even if he didn't get relief, my point was just that guys try stuff like this

[Texas1]

Eddie Pepperell nails it on Twitter

 

It’s been quite a year for Matt Kuchar as he leads the PGA Tour in both money and sh ithousery.

 

 

 

[QuigleyDU]

 

> @Ferguson said:

> > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Ok I guess

> > > >

> > > > Maybe my sense of humor is not quite fully charged today... I thought that was funny.

> > >

> > > I didn't quite get it! Maybe it was. I'm 37 I'm not cool anymore I may have missed the joke

> >

> > Well, I am 39 and was probably never cool.

>

> Seeing that the written text didn't quite pertain, he felt the mere mention of this "character" was funny.

>

>

> Not a complete swing and a miss, but certainly something I would call a foul ball.

>

>

>

>

 

Yeah, I was simply trying to say that Kuchar objected to the ruling and got shot down. But if the most interesting man was playing, everyone would have agreed that the ball made a second mark and was therefore ok to make a drop.

 

Saying it like this is so not funny...

 

[imakaveli]

Kuchar's reputation graph reminds me of Daenerys Targaryen's....

[North Butte]

There is nothing more tedious in the world than Rules arguments during a round of golf. Whether guys playing for a million bucks on TV or some doofus in the hacker flight of your club championship. There ought to be a 90-second limit written into the Rules of Golf. Any dispute over Rules that isn't settled within 90 seconds is an automatic DQ for whoever is still whining.

[bladehunter]

> @OldTomMorris said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Pretty fair indicator that they know the call wasnt as cut and dry as they made it out to be.

>

> Or they removed to protect the player/PGA Tour brand as the Twitter mob was circling on Kuchar and calling him a cheat.

 

I detest kuchars actions with the caddie. But mobs and twitter are generally wrong. He wasn’t wrong to ask here. Just too stupid to make a proper argument. If he’d argued that his ball was in his pitch mark. I’d say he would’ve been correct. Or at least reasonable to think it was and hard to prove it wasn’t.

[Ferguson]

> @QuigleyDU said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > > @MtlJeff said:

> > > > > > > > Players have been trying to use the rules to their advantage forever, which makes sense because the rules hurt them sometimes too (see, Dustin Johnson at US Open)....Kuchar looked really dumb here because it was a dumb argument that had no chance of succeeding, and of course it didnt. But i guess you gotta try, i never thought Bubba Watson would get ants classified as burrowing animals either. Or that Tiger would get a boulder that needed 20 people to move, a moveable object.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Again, people hate Kuchar because of the caddie incident, and will tar and feather him for anything , even if it's a common thing any player does.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Most people probably can't even remember the name of the guy Joel Dahmen accused of cheating last year with the alleged improper drop (admit it, you are looking it up....). This stuff happens all the time

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ok I guess

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe my sense of humor is not quite fully charged today... I thought that was funny.

> > > >

> > > > I didn't quite get it! Maybe it was. I'm 37 I'm not cool anymore I may have missed the joke

> > >

> > > Well, I am 39 and was probably never cool.

> >

> > Seeing that the written text didn't quite pertain, he felt the mere mention of this "character" was funny.

> >

> >

> > Not a complete swing and a miss, but certainly something I would call a foul ball.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yeah, I was simply trying to say that Kuchar objected to the ruling and got shot down. But if the most interesting man was playing, everyone would have agreed that the ball made a second mark and was therefore ok to make a drop.

>

> Saying it like this is so not funny...

 

 

Hatteberg, grab a bat - you're hitting for Quigley.

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @King_Slender said:

> OK, just to level set on this whole scenario.

>

> 1) Immelman gave bad information, saying that the ball rolled forward from where it landed. In looking at the video, it clearly did not.

> 2) Not having any other information to go by, Kuchar made the "second pitch mark" argument - he was wrong about that. But it was also impossible for him to know that WASN'T his pitch mark, other than relying on Immelman's comments.

> 3) Upon viewing the video and seeing that there are no other pitch marks in the area, it's clear his ball landed, bounced up and ended up back in the pitch mark made by his ball.

>

> While you may think Kuchar was tool for arguing what he did, the facts are that the ball was in his pitch mark and, even if the ball rolled back into the pitch mark and didn't plug, part of the ball was below the playing surface and he was due relief.

 

Yep. More you watch the replay ( I have it on dvr) the more it’s clear that Immelmann caused most of the confusion. He raced over and gave a wrong account. Dead wrong. Which caused kuchars dishonest mind to take over and concoct a story to argue. When all the while the truth may have worked. Lol. Some clap for karmic justice here. And I get that. But think bigger picture. Suppose this is a great guy like Rory or Stricker etc. and they are shot a load of crap by an announcer then the refs just buy what he says. What then ?

[OldTomMorris]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @OldTomMorris said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Pretty fair indicator that they know the call wasnt as cut and dry as they made it out to be.

> >

> > Or they removed to protect the player/PGA Tour brand as the Twitter mob was circling on Kuchar and calling him a cheat.

>

> I detest kuchars actions with the caddie. But mobs and twitter are generally wrong. He wasn’t wrong to ask here. Just too stupid to make a proper argument. If he’d argued that his ball was in his pitch mark. I’d say he would’ve been correct. Or at least reasonable to think it was and hard to prove it wasn’t.

 

I don't disagree especially on mobs. He got a second opinion and was seriously wanting a third, at that point I think he's ridiculous. The pictures aren't 100% conclusive but the theory Matt concocted wasn't believable.

[Lodestone]

> @MaineMariner said:

> I re-watched the only replay I can find (on pgamemes' Instagram) on a larger screen and am officially unsure of what happened to the ball. It definitely hops up, then forward, then rolls back a tad. It may have very well ended up in its own pitch mark.

>

> It's really a shame that the PGA Tour shamefully scrubbed the video from the internet, so all we're left with is a poor quality Instagram post.

I think the reason you are officially unsure is because you really can't tell. The camera is far enough away that the telephoto image compresses distances to the point that you just can't tell how far the ball moves on the first bounce, or how far it moves on the second bounce, and roll and settling into the pitchmark.

Did the PGA really "scrub" the video? I know I tried to find it on YouTube, the PGA website as well as ESPN and I couldn't find it.

[oneunderbogey]

I don't even care if he was right. He asked for a ruling and got a ruling. Hit the ball and move on. PGA tour should make that a rule. Something like "Players are expected to play the shot after receiving a ruling there will be no penalty to the player if the ruling by the rules offical is incorrect"

[thevaporz]

Uh oh, dust off your Zapruder tapes and call Oliver Stone. This is why I hate jury duty.

 

The "real" footage that is available on millions of dvr boxes clearly shows the ball bounce forward. Now you're coming with someone scrubbing footage and camera technology excuse? What's next, you're gonna tell me the earth is flat? Use common sense. Have you ever seen a ball make two pitch marks?

[Golfer4Life]

Poor Douchar, lol...

[HitEmTrue]

> @thevaporz said:

> Uh oh, dust off your Zapruder tapes and call Oliver Stone. This is why I hate jury duty.

>

> The "real" footage that is available on millions of dvr boxes clearly shows the ball bounce forward. Now you're coming with someone scrubbing footage and camera technology excuse? What's next, you're gonna tell me the earth is flat? Use common sense. Have you ever seen a ball make two pitch marks?

 

You mean clearly shows it bouncing backward, then rolling/bouncing forward?

 

[buckeyefl]

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > I know people are focused on this because of who's involved and an irrational dislike of said player but trust me, this happens more often than you think. I'm not even sure why the kept the camera on it. File it under "if never hurts to ask"

> >

> > You'll notice the players know what words to use when making their arguments but rarely do they get one over on the regular tour officials.

>

> Several points here.

> "irrational dislike" probably.

> "happens more than you think" I seriously doubt it, I've been playing golf since 1984 and I don't ever recall it happening.

>

> "never hurts to ask" True, but I think the point is, is that he would't let it go. He asked for a ruling, got one, then kept arguing a point that he was pretty obviously wrong about, held up play and made a fool of himself. If he would have just asked for a ruling, gotten the ruling and accepting the ruling then I would have had zero issue with it. The entire process was captured on camera and broadcast, the networks must really really have it out for the guy, because they made him look like a tool.....just by showing how he behaves.

 

Just because you don't see it does not mean it's not happening and I'm going to take a stab at you not being a tour player. I'm not guessing or theorizing, I am telling you that players push the envelope and try to sway the officials far more often than you see from your living room, period. As to why they decided to show so much of the exchange, who knows. How many players were still on the course? I didn't like it but it was nothing unusual and players have asked for far worse.

 

As far as "how he behaves" again from your living room you see a tiny sliver of how any player behaves and making judgements about that person from that can make you look foolish.

[buckeyefl]

> @oneunderbogey said:

> I don't even care if he was right. He asked for a ruling and got a ruling. Hit the ball and move on. PGA tour should make that a rule. Something like "Players are expected to play the shot after receiving a ruling there will be no penalty to the player if the ruling by the rules offical is incorrect"

 

A ruling and a second opinion and then it should be time to go. A lot can depend on the particular official but I know personally when it's in your face obvious I'm not wasting any of my time on ridiculous requests or attempts at bending the rules in knots.