Friend who is a golf cheat

[SuperSpurs106]

Hi

 

I wonder if anyone has any ideas/advice for me.

 

A group of 5/6 of us play together regularly in our club competitions. We are all mates. The newest member to the group is a cheat. I’ve seen him improve his lie with his club and sometimes his hand on several occasions. Other friends have seen him too.

 

He does the classic of waiting until someone is playing their shot, thinking that all eyes are on that person.

 

We don’t have video evidence and no two people have seen the same indiscretion, which would make it easier to confront rather than one person’s word against his.

 

We are all mates and it just feels really awkward but, ultimately, it is wrong.

 

What would anyone do in this position? Has anyone ever been in this position?

 

TIA

[FenderSpots]

Is it for money or friendly matches? Not that it makes much of a difference, cheating is cheating, but if it is all in good fun then I guess it makes it a bit better to let slide. However if it is money matches or you're playing for something then calling him out for it is fine. Yeah awkward, but in the end it is for the benefit for all. I would like to think if you are all mates then he/all would understand why it is being called out. 

[SuperSpurs106]

5 minutes ago, FenderSpots said:

Is it for money or friendly matches? Not that it makes much of a difference, cheating is cheating, but if it is all in good fun then I guess it makes it a bit better to let slide. However if it is money matches or you're playing for something then calling him out for it is fine. Yeah awkward, but in the end it is for the benefit for all. I would like to think if you are all mates then he/all would understand why it is being called out. 

Hi, it is in club competitions where everyone pays an entry fee so it’s certainly not for fun.

 

Ideally, a non-friend would spot him and report him but he’s very sneaky and if you’re not actually looking for it, you probably won’t see it.

[FenderSpots]

Being that it is an actual competition I don't think there is anything bad or awkward about calling him out. Sucks to have to do, but in the end it is in the best interest of all parties for that to be done. 

 

That being said, that is just my 2 cents. 

[anth]

Call him out and do it now.

 

If you don’t now, you won’t later and before you know it you’ll have been putting up with his cheating ways for years. And you’ll justify it by saying he’s a friend and you don’t want to have that awkward confrontation.

 

But you have a responsibility to everyone else in that competition to call him out. And tell me, what kind of a friend cheats in that scenario, and puts you in the position of feeling bad about it anyway?

 

(Sorry, reliving past experiences…)

[Esox]

Get him in private.  Explain to him that not only is it unsportsmanlike, everyone is aware of his transgressions and there have been comments made about it. Tell him he is ruining his reputation, as well as making himself unwelcome to any competitions. Odds are he won't change, or if he does his scores will skyrocket because he has no confidence in his ability to hit out of bad lies......much less practice hitting out of them. LOL

[MtlJeff]

If this is in club competitions you need to speak to him.

 

Normally i'm the first to say let it slide , when it's just fun golf between friends because there are bigger things in life to worry about. But in a club competition with other players involved? You should tell him for his own good

 

I know people who have been suspended from competitions in clubs for 3-5 years because they were caught cheating. I doubt he wants something like that to happen. If someone catches his who isn't a friend--that can happen

[Greenie]

43 minutes ago, Esox said:

Get him in private.  Explain to him that not only is it unsportsmanlike, everyone is aware of his transgressions and there have been comments made about it. Tell him he is ruining his reputation, as well as making himself unwelcome to any competitions. Odds are he won't change, or if he does his scores will skyrocket because he has no confidence in his ability to hit out of bad lies......much less practice hitting out of them. LOL

Easy fix,This ^^^^^^^^

 

In our casual rounds we don't care what another person does but when we play for money it's by the rules. 

 

Maybe before doing the above send him a message. I remember when we had a large group playing for money a guy famous for improving his lies in casual rounds was in our group. I spoke up on the first tee and said "ok guys we are playing by the rules today. You have to play the ball down, no improving your lies"  This guy spoke up and said " so you can't fluff your ball?" I said no that would be cheating.

[mshills]

1 hour ago, Esox said:

Get him in private.  Explain to him that not only is it unsportsmanlike, everyone is aware of his transgressions and there have been comments made about it. Tell him he is ruining his reputation, as well as making himself unwelcome to any competitions. Odds are he won't change, or if he does his scores will skyrocket because he has no confidence in his ability to hit out of bad lies......much less practice hitting out of them. LOL

Exactly this. If he is cheating in club competitions, you have to confront him, 1:1, in private, and be direct so there can be no interpretation or misunderstanding.  

[596]

I'd just talk to him as a friend.  I don't care about the protecting the field scenario.  Just talk to him as a friend and mention he should not be doing that in a competition. He knows he does it, he knows he's wrong. No need to make him feel bad. Give him an out to save face.  Explain it's fine if he does that in a fun round but not in competition.  Explain people will get mad at him when he's caught.

 

No reason to lower the boom on the guy. It's not the end of the world we are talking about here.  For 99% of everyone playing this game, it's just that, a game.   

[MtlJeff]

15 minutes ago, 596 said:

I'd just talk to him as a friend.  I don't care about the protecting the field scenario.  Just talk to him as a friend and mention he should not be doing that in a competition. He knows he does it, he knows he's wrong. No need to make him feel bad. Give him an out to save face.  Explain it's fine if he does that in a fun round but not in competition.  Explain people will get mad at him when he's caught.

 

No reason to lower the boom on the guy. It's not the end of the world we are talking about here.  For 99% of everyone playing this game, it's just that, a game.   

 

I agree about not having to be a d*ck about it if he's a friend. But some clubs can be a little draconian with cheating, so it would be good for someone to stress that to him if he were to be caught by someone who isn't a friend, who happened to join their group. 

 

I guess not every club is the same, but i've seen guys suspended from clubs for cheating in stuff like this, for longer times than people who don't pay their bills or harrassed female staff.

 

Again i'm not saying cheating is fine, it's just for his own good for someone to speak to him

[NJBigFish22]

I would pull out my phone and try to get a couple of videos showing him cheating, then since he is a friend, I would have a conversation with the group and let him know that if the behavior continues, the group will make a decision on whether or not he can still play.

[PJE]

Depends upon how important the “friendship” is to you.
I know three guys who were in the same situation. They were friends for at least 10 years.  Two guys confronted the third, in a polite and nice way, with the usual rationales, I.e., protecting the field, you know you do it but it’s not right, others will tire of you etc.  
They haven’t spoken in at least 10 years. 
Some lie improvers are mental or,more politely, have personality defects.  They insist or convince themselves they haven't done what  is obvious to everyone and they take great offense at being confronted.  

Edited May 30, 2022 by PJE

[TourSpoon]

I like the advice so far. Being direct takes the guess work out of expectations but could also bring some unexpected turmoil.
 

Another take would be the next time you play you tell everyone on the tee box that someone has commented on seeing someone in the group getting creative and that the integrity of the group cannot become an issue. The expectation is that everything is played down. No exceptions. 
 

If that doesn’t work then you go 1:1 and say look, I was being subtle as not to embarrass you, but we cannot afford to have you bring our integrity in question. It’s not like you didn’t warn him and allowed him to save face. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by TourSpoon
Clarification

[iGolf67]

Not the same thing, but I had a friend who would get really hot under the collar if he hit a bad shot...cursing, throwing clubs, etc. One day I told him I couldn't play golf with him anymore as his behavior ruined the round for me. I played with him again six or so weeks later and his behavior did a 180º.  I know you're in an awkward situation, but talking to him is the right thing to do. Imagine if someone sees him cheat who is not his friend...things could get ugly real fast. 

[2bGood]

In my experience, if 4 or 5 guys know he is cheating then the entire club knows he is a cheater.  If the club has not already labelled him a cheater and you have picked up on this early, then you are doing him a favour by talking to him now. 

 

Some cheaters are wired different though and can't help themselves even after they have been called out. Hopefully he is not that kind.

Edited May 30, 2022 by 2bGood

[naval2006]

I think it’s time you guys have a talk with your friend now. Otherwise it’ll probably escalate because you can’t live with that for years. Apparently you want to talk about it already. Hard to tell what will happen, but cheats usually don’t change.  Something similar happened in a league my Dad plays in. This guy was found cheating, reported to the Golf Association and suspended from competition for 10 years nationwide. Embarrassing for everybody but the cheat will to live with a red tag even after suspension. 

[Double Mocha Man]

Just remind him, or everyone together on the first tee (no finger pointing that way), that It's no longer Winter rules and you all have to play the ball down.  Also, try to position yourself right next to him on several shots so he would have to bump the ball knowingly.

[straightshot7]

You could try being gentle at first by pretending to think maybe he just doesn't know the rules. 

talk to him privately and say, "hey I know that a lot of times people play by different rules and it's all just for fun ultimately, but I've noticed once in a while you'll improve your lie. And I'm just letting you know we play everything by the rules of golf and if anyone else sees you doing that it might be a problem..." etc.

 

Depending on that goes you can escalate it to - "dude you're cheating and either you stop or you're gonna get kicked out of the club".

 

If he won't listen to you, bring a second person in with you.

 

At the end of the day, it's his problem, not yours. It's not your fault he chooses to cheat. 

[bobfoster]

Friends don't let friends do foot wedges.

[ArtMBgolf]

One of you that knows about the improved lies, needs to ride with him and spy on him.    
If you catch him and he knows it, it's easier to talk to him.   

[larrybud]

Easier would be to play "dumb" and when you see him improve his lie say "Hey Patrick, maybe you didn't know, our rules state we play the ball down, so you're not allowed to improve your lie like you did right there".

Makes him aware that you're aware, and puts him on notice, but not in an accusatory way.

 

[Double Mocha Man]

Or... when scores are added up and he tells you what he shot just tell him you shot XX, which you should compute as 15 strokes better than you actually shot.  See what his reaction is, and then go from there.

[alittleoverpar]

It's awkward and uncomfortable, but to protect the field you really need to confront him.  Most of the guys I play with improve their lies, but we don't play for money.  In that case a cheater is only hurting themselves, but in a competition they are hurting the field.

[jordan2240]

The next time you notice him improving his lie, yell over and ask if he'd like to borrow a tee.

 

I play with guys who improve their lies all the time, but they just do it blatantly, as we only play casual rounds and no one cares.  But for someone to try to hide it goes beyond good form.  I'd do like some others have suggested and make sure the rules are known before the round starts, then just let him live with whatever decision he makes.  I'm guessing his cheating probably doesn't significantly improve his score anyway. 

[Imp]

On 6/1/2022 at 2:59 PM, larrybud said:

Easier would be to play "dumb" and when you see him improve his lie say "Hey Patrick, maybe you didn't know, our rules state we play the ball down, so you're not allowed to improve your lie like you did right there".

Makes him aware that you're aware, and puts him on notice, but not in an accusatory way.

 

I do like the other ways not in the middle of a round, but afterwards or during the week...  "Hey, someone told me they saw you improving your lies (or whatever) during the comp... maybe they did, maybe they didn't, not up to me. I didn't see you, but just want to let ya know that you can't do that. Other people watch out for everyone else on the course, and there are some guys here that can, and will, make a really huge stink about it. Casual rounds? That's one thing. Don't care. During comp rounds? Yeah, no bueno."

[jc4birdie]

My regular group plays for $20/man, blind draw better ball game w/ a skins game, and side games abound for extra $$ within each foursome.  Everyone gets along famously; lots of fun and memories.  But this one guy has become an inveterate cheat, and it has several people in the group pretty peeved.  We all know the rules we play by, the ROG, w/ 2 exceptions: we roll 'em in the fairways, and we move the ball off of in-bounds tree roots at no penalty, to save equipment, wrists and hands.

 

This guy has been caught moving a ball out of a fairway bunker, and I myself have caught him hitting clearly from OB, on 2 occasions.  Rough fluffing, too.  Takes 1 stroke from OB, not the 2 out to the fairway he's supposed to.   He routinely manipulates his scorecard, and won't let anyone else control his group's card.

 

As the "logistics" guy, the others look to me as a leader, and they're looking to me for leadership.   Not sure how to handle this; what I really want to do is just drop him from the invitation list, but that might be too harsh, as he's a close friend of a couple of the guys.  What do you guys think of this:  in this week's invitation, I reiterate that we're playing ROG, w/ the 2 outliers I mentioned that we all agreed on long ago, specifically naming some of the infractions I and others have seen this guy commit without mentioning him by name?  That way, he gets a chance to clean up his mess without confrontation.  If he doesn't, then I excommunicate him.

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, jc4birdie said:

Not sure how to handle this; what I really want to do is just drop him from the invitation list, but that might be too harsh, as he's a close friend of a couple of the guys.

 

"Donald, there've been many complaints about your , let's say, spotty compliance with the Rules. Going forward, while we're all happy for you to play with us, we've agreed you just can't be in the money game any longer."

[cardoustie]

Make the chat appear that it’s not coming from you but rather you’re delivering the bad news from the group

 

“Listen Cheaty McCheatface, you’ve been seen by multiple guys on more than a few occasions improving your lie, don’t shoot the messenger but this has to stop immediately”

 

then say … hey we are looking out for you, if one of the rules guru’s see’s you, the situation will be dire, your reputation will be shot etc etc

 

I've had to have this chat too many times as a former club captain and Hdcp chair, it’s not much fun (when friends didn’t get their pals in line)

 

some guys cannot stop.  Most guys will mend their ways over the fear the membership will have them painted as a nudger 

 

it’s funny… some players cannot change their casual round improvements in serious events

[Schulzmc]

10 hours ago, jc4birdie said:

As the "logistics" guy, the others look to me as a leader, and they're looking to me for leadership.   Not sure how to handle this; what I really want to do is just drop him from the invitation list, but that might be too harsh, as he's a close friend of a couple of the guys.  What do you guys think of this:  in this week's invitation, I reiterate that we're playing ROG, w/ the 2 outliers I mentioned that we all agreed on long ago, specifically naming some of the infractions I and others have seen this guy commit without mentioning him by name?  That way, he gets a chance to clean up his mess without confrontation.  If he doesn't, then I excommunicate him.

 

I believe addressing the whole group when it is really only one guy is a mistake. Just let him know there have been complaints and that he needs to be on his best rules behavior. Then if he isn't he has been warned.