Billy Horschel and PGA Tour/DP World Tour Hypocrisy

[DaddySwagMaster]

Before 10,000 of you jump on me and point out what I already know, that the DP World Tour and the PGA Tour are in bed with each other, and players are free to play events on either Tour as they see fit, but I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of all of this.  I mean, let's call a spade a spade.  The PGA Tour has a problem with Greg Norman, pure and simple.

 

We've got a PGA Tour event in Connecticut going on this week, and a DP World Tour event in Germany going on.  So I pulled up the leaderboard for the DP World Tour event and I see this collection of players...

 

So did Billy get a "conflicting event release" from the PGA Tour?  I mean, it's in direct competition to the Travelers Championship going on at the same time.

So I guess Louis Oosthuizen, Sergio Garcia, Pablo Larrazabal, among others currently playing on the LIV Tour are free to play all the DP World Tour events they want?

 

I honestly don't care if you disagree with me, but this is such blatant hypocrisy.  Just come out and admit that you just hate Greg Norman and be done with it.  This is personal to Monahan and nothing more.

[Dave230]

19 minutes ago, DaddySwagMaster said:

Before 10,000 of you jump on me and point out what I already know, that the DP World Tour and the PGA Tour are in bed with each other, and players are free to play events on either Tour as they see fit, but I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of all of this.  I mean, let's call a spade a spade.  The PGA Tour has a problem with Greg Norman, pure and simple.

 

We've got a PGA Tour event in Connecticut going on this week, and a DP World Tour event in Germany going on.  So I pulled up the leaderboard for the DP World Tour event and I see this collection of players...

 

So did Billy get a "conflicting event release" from the PGA Tour?  I mean, it's in direct competition to the Travelers Championship going on at the same time.

So I guess Louis Oosthuizen, Sergio Garcia, Pablo Larrazabal, among others currently playing on the LIV Tour are free to play all the DP World Tour events they want?

 

I honestly don't care if you disagree with me, but this is such blatant hypocrisy.  Just come out and admit that you just hate Greg Norman and be done with it.  This is personal to Monahan and nothing more.

The European (DP World Tour) have no events on American soil clashing with the PGA Tour, which is the key to the whole argument. Next week's event goes directly against the John Deere classic on American soil, taking a number of formerly PGA Tour players. The European Tour and PGA Tour always co-existed because they played for different geographical markets. And they even worked together so their tournaments wouldn't clash. Sergio Garcia has been playing both tours for over 20 years.

 

LIV Tour is going directly up against the PGA Tour in their territory, that's the difference.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Dave230

[bscinstnct]

Billy?

 

They encourage him to spend as much time abroad as he likes

 

 

[the bishop]

I've said many times that Horschel would be the linchpin in exposing ALL of this rabid hypocrisy.  Finally someone else gets it.

[DaddySwagMaster]

6 minutes ago, Dave230 said:

The European (DP World Tour) have no events on American soil clashing with the PGA Tour, which is the key to the whole argument. Next week's event goes directly against the John Deere classic on American soil, taking a number of formerly PGA Tour players. The European Tour and PGA Tour always co-existed because they played for different geographical markets. And they even worked together so their tournaments wouldn't clash. Sergio Garcia has been playing both tours for over 20 years.

 

LIV Tour is going directly up against the PGA Tour in their territory, that's the difference.

With regards to Billy Horschel.  Why didn't he play in the Travelers Championship?  If the PGA Tour argument is about stealing top talent to go play on another tour, that argument is hypocritical based on this example.  It's happened multiple times before too.  Sergio and others could easily have played the Travelers, but they choose to play in Europe instead.

 

Again, I understand the public perception and the prevailing agreement, but when you have PGA Tour players playing another tour at the same time a PGA Tour event is going on, and don't have a problem with it, and in fact not only allow it, but seemingly encourage it, it's hypocrisy when you come out guns blazing against the LIV Tour.

 

Taking this one step further.  So what if 20 or so players leave the PGA Tour for LIV.  Without OWGR points those 20 or so players will fade into insignificance in the next year or two.  You'll have new players taking their place on the OWGR, and winning majors, and winning PGA Tour events.  Frankly, watching Brooks leave the PGA Tour is like a breath of fresh air.  The guy is always pissed off at someone, and have you ever seen him smile once?  I live in Tallahassee, and am surrounded by everything FSU, and I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for Brooks, even as an FSU alumni.

 

Frankly, pretty much every player that has opted to go to LIV has a horrible public image, or indifferent at best.  I mean, people were celebrating Reed going there.  And Pat Perez?  Raise your hand if you even know when the last time he won a tournament was, or was relevent?  Bryson is a circus side show and is injured.  Does DJ even have a pulse?

 

I've yet to see one player going to LIV who actually gives me the impression that they will be hurting the PGA Tour by leaving.  So far, not a single player does that IMHO.

[the bishop]

The minimum requirement to maintain PGA Tour membership is 15 events/year.  That doesn't mean that if someone chooses to only play 15 events they can't play somewhere else (DP World Tour for example) on weeks they don't play the PGA Tour. Unless it's the LIV tour now of course.

[aus10KC]

8 minutes ago, DaddySwagMaster said:

With regards to Billy Horschel.  Why didn't he play in the Travelers Championship?  If the PGA Tour argument is about stealing top talent to go play on another tour, that argument is hypocritical based on this example.  It's happened multiple times before too.  Sergio and others could easily have played the Travelers, but they choose to play in Europe instead.

 

Again, I understand the public perception and the prevailing agreement, but when you have PGA Tour players playing another tour at the same time a PGA Tour event is going on, and don't have a problem with it, and in fact not only allow it, but seemingly encourage it, it's hypocrisy when you come out guns blazing against the LIV Tour.

 

Taking this one step further.  So what if 20 or so players leave the PGA Tour for LIV.  Without OWGR points those 20 or so players will fade into insignificance in the next year or two.  You'll have new players taking their place on the OWGR, and winning majors, and winning PGA Tour events.  Frankly, watching Brooks leave the PGA Tour is like a breath of fresh air.  The guy is always pissed off at someone, and have you ever seen him smile once?  I live in Tallahassee, and am surrounded by everything FSU, and I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for Brooks, even as an FSU alumni.

 

Frankly, pretty much every player that has opted to go to LIV has a horrible public image, or indifferent at best.  I mean, people were celebrating Reed going there.  And Pat Perez?  Raise your hand if you even know when the last time he won a tournament was, or was relevent?  Bryson is a circus side show and is injured.  Does DJ even have a pulse?

 

I've yet to see one player going to LIV who actually gives me the impression that they will be hurting the PGA Tour by leaving.  So far, not a single player does that IMHO.

 

Now that you've gotten that off your chest, do you feel better? Deep breath, it's only golf.

[BottleCap]

9 minutes ago, DaddySwagMaster said:

With regards to Billy Horschel.  Why didn't he play in the Travelers Championship?  If the PGA Tour argument is about stealing top talent to go play on another tour, that argument is hypocritical based on this example.  It's happened multiple times before too.  Sergio and others could easily have played the Travelers, but they choose to play in Europe instead.

 

Again, I understand the public perception and the prevailing agreement, but when you have PGA Tour players playing another tour at the same time a PGA Tour event is going on, and don't have a problem with it, and in fact not only allow it, but seemingly encourage it, it's hypocrisy when you come out guns blazing against the LIV Tour.

 

Taking this one step further.  So what if 20 or so players leave the PGA Tour for LIV.  Without OWGR points those 20 or so players will fade into insignificance in the next year or two.  You'll have new players taking their place on the OWGR, and winning majors, and winning PGA Tour events.  Frankly, watching Brooks leave the PGA Tour is like a breath of fresh air.  The guy is always pissed off at someone, and have you ever seen him smile once?  I live in Tallahassee, and am surrounded by everything FSU, and I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for Brooks, even as an FSU alumni.

 

Frankly, pretty much every player that has opted to go to LIV has a horrible public image, or indifferent at best.  I mean, people were celebrating Reed going there.  And Pat Perez?  Raise your hand if you even know when the last time he won a tournament was, or was relevent?  Bryson is a circus side show and is injured.  Does DJ even have a pulse?

 

I've yet to see one player going to LIV who actually gives me the impression that they will be hurting the PGA Tour by leaving.  So far, not a single player does that IMHO.

If LIV took complaining JT, i’d be all in on the PGAT and never watch LIV

[Cincy_Ken]

20 minutes ago, the bishop said:

The minimum requirement to maintain PGA Tour membership is 15 events/year.  That doesn't mean that if someone chooses to only play 15 events they can't play somewhere else (DP World Tour for example) on weeks they don't play the PGA Tour. Unless it's the LIV tour now of course.

I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if this may be a vulnerability for the PGA tour. Even though players are not employees I can see them having the ability to say if you accept membership with us you cannot play on other tours without approval.  Perhaps it becomes slippery when they grant permissions for certain events and not others.  They announced suspensions for players who played in London, they didn't wait for the first US event.  It's a reasonable assumption those players will play in the US based events but does that matter.  I imagine there's going to be a lot of lawyers making good money on this issue

[seis]

I am one of the few on this site I think that like to watch Billy Horschel. If you know of him off the course he seems to be kind of a Europhile. He has played overseas more often recently and is a Euro soccer fan. This may explain more than a supposed ulterior motive for playing on the DP Tour this week, that and maybe some appearance money. He seems to be popular with golf fans overseas.

[NoFancyUsername.]

18 minutes ago, Cincy_Ken said:

I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if this may be a vulnerability for the PGA tour. Even though players are not employees I can see them having the ability to say if you accept membership with us you cannot play on other tours without approval.  Perhaps it becomes slippery when they grant permissions for certain events and not others.  They announced suspensions for players who played in London, they didn't wait for the first US event.  It's a reasonable assumption those players will play in the US based events but does that matter.  I imagine there's going to be a lot of lawyers making good money on this issue

Restraint of Trade comes to mind.

[Tpfol]

The players arent suspended from the PGA because they are playing the LIV tour.

They are technically suspended because they did not receive permission or didnt even ask and then played elsewhere, which is a violation of the code of conduct policy.

Where the players messed up was in not all requesting the permission, which would have made the suspension solely on the denial. 

As for Horschel, its a non-starter. The PGA tour has a "strategic alliance" with the LP tour and routinely allows players to play in events there provided they receive permission, which I am assuming was requested and granted.

What will be interesting to see is there is a record of this process, because god help the PGA tour if the process is not routinely followed

[slicktry]

It all comes down to the minimum number of events a member has to play in order to retain membership on the tour. The majors, The Players + WGC events count so realistically they only need to play 2-3 other events to retain membership on the DP World Tour.  PGA Tour is 12 tournaments (could stand corrected) so minus the 8-9 "major" tournaments a member would have to play 3-4 other events to retain membership provided they are in the top 125.

 

God Bless

Jer

Edited June 24, 2022 by slicktry

[dfeldss]

Well the PGA tour and euro tour have a long standing alliance and put on the ryder cup and presidents cup together (hopefully LIV doesn't take those from us)

 

And like others have said, the Euro tour doesn't play in America, obviously.

[Cincy_Ken]

28 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

As for Horschel, its a non-starter. The PGA tour has a "strategic alliance" with the LP tour and routinely allows players to play in events there provided they receive permission, which I am assuming was requested and granted.

 

Even before the partnership may players have maintained dual membership for years.  I believe all Ryder Cup players have to be Euro tour members; I believe that's why Casey didn't play for a long time.

[JohnnyCashForever]

1 hour ago, Dave230 said:

The European (DP World Tour) have no events on American soil clashing with the PGA Tour, which is the key to the whole argument. Next week's event goes directly against the John Deere classic on American soil, taking a number of formerly PGA Tour players. The European Tour and PGA Tour always co-existed because they played for different geographical markets. And they even worked together so their tournaments wouldn't clash. Sergio Garcia has been playing both tours for over 20 years.

 

LIV Tour is going directly up against the PGA Tour in their territory, that's the difference.

This is a red herring.  IMO, it's not a question of where.  It's a question of who. 

[DaddySwagMaster]

1 hour ago, aus10KC said:

 

it's only golf.

Is it?

[Pops99]

.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Pops99

[Tpfol]

 

5 minutes ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

This is a red herring.  IMO, it's not a question of where.  It's a question of who. 

Exactly. The first LIV event was in London while the PGA tour was playing in Canada. "American Soil" wasnt touched

[jls667]

As it's pointed out, the PGA and DP are essentially sister tours so is it not the same thing if I elect buy a dozen balls from Golf Galaxy or Dicks vs buying from Amazon? Or choosing between Srixon and Cleveland irons vs Taylormade? 

 

Its clearly choosing between options that work together and complement each other or choosing another entity that is actively trying to take down the two sisters.

Edited June 24, 2022 by jls667

[iBanesto]

I couldn't find the PGA Tour 2022 handbook. But found the 2019-2020 version.

 

2. Obligations of PGA TOUR Members

To contribute to the success of a PGA TOUR tournament or event and to permit PGA TOUR
to fulfill its contractual obligations concerning representative fields, no PGA TOUR member
shall participate in any other golf tournament or event on a date when a PGA TOUR (Regular TOUR) cosponsored tournament or event for which such member is exempt is scheduled, except for the following tournaments or events:

a. A tournament or event for which a member obtains an advance written release for his
participation from the Commissioner (See “Guidelines for Conflicting Event Release” set
forth below);
NOTE: No conflicting event releases will be approved for tournaments held in North
America.

b. A tournament or event cosponsored or approved by and held in the territory of the PGA
section with which the PGA TOUR member is affiliated or where he is then employed,
provided that he is eligible for such sectional tournament under the constitution of the
PGA;

c. The PGA National Professional Championship, and PGA winter tournaments for profes-
sionals;

d. Golf tournaments on the “home circuit” of a foreign player who is a PGA TOUR member.

 

3. Guidelines for Conflicting Event Release

a. Each Regular Member of PGA TOUR ordinarily shall be eligible for three releases per
season based on participation in 15 PGA TOUR cosponsored or approved tournaments
and, in addition, shall be eligible for one release for every five cosponsored or approved
tournaments (as defined in paragraph C of Article I) in which he participates above 15
tournaments.

b. Notwithstanding the above, the Commissioner may deny any particular release request
if he determines that such a release would cause PGA TOUR to be in violation of a
contractual commitment to a tournament sponsor, or would otherwise significantly and
unreasonably harm PGA TOUR and such sponsors. Also, the Commissioner shall be
entitled, but not obligated, to grant additional releases when he determines that to do so
would not unreasonably harm PGA TOUR or the sponsor involved.

c. In making the factual determinations contemplated in the preceding paragraph, the
Commissioner shall consider, but shall not be limited to, the following factors:

(1) The overall makeup of the field from which the member seeks to be released;
(2) The member’s standing on the current and previous season’s FedExCup Points List;
(3) The number of tournaments that the member has played in, or committed to play in,
for the current season;
(4) The member’s record of participation in the tournament from which he seeks to be
released.

d. The Commissioner will consider conditional releases under the following circumstances:
(1) If the member has not played in the tournament for which he seeks to be released
for an extended period of time, such release may be conditional upon his participa-
tion in the tournament the following season.
(2) After five releases have been granted for the same tournament, subsequent releases
may be conditional upon the member playing in the tournament the next season.
(3) If a member has committed to the tournament and is subsequently granted a
release, such a member may be required to play in the tournament the following
season.

 

From Golf Digest article (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-tour-punishment-liv-golf):

 

The PGA Tour, like any other employer or organization, has the discretion to enact rules of conduct of its members, employees and independent contractors.

 

One of the provisions in the PGA Tour Player Handbook and Tournament Regulations is that each PGA Tour member acknowledges the commissioner, the tour’s policy board and the appeals committee have the authority to permanently ban a member from playing in a tour co-sponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments if the member violates its regulations. The handbook also provides that a player ceases to be a member of the PGA Tour if, in the judgment of the policy board, the member commits a serious breach of the Tournament Regulations, the PGA Tour’s Code of Ethics, or otherwise conducts himself in a manner unbecoming of a professional golfer.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by iBanesto

[Ronnie Mundt]

I’m super pumped to not watch the John Deere Classic next week. Another terrible event on the schedule.

[farmer]

Just read that any DP members who play in LIV events will be banned from DP events.  Players better like the LIV venues.

[jmck]

Is there any evidence whatsoever that Billy Ho didn't apply for and receive a release to play in Germany?

 

No.

 

Does Billy Ho playing in Germany "significantly and unreasonably harm the PGA Tour"?

 

No.

 

Compare and contrast those to the players who've gone to play for LIV, where the answer is--VERY OBVIOUSLY--yes to both of those questions.

 

There's not any nuance needed, these are two VERY OBVIOUSLY different situations, yet it appears to still be too complex for some.

Edited June 24, 2022 by jmck

[Skydiver22]

Norman has publicly said for two decades that he wants to blow up the PGA tour and install a World tour with less events for more money.

What would this mean...

- Less tour stops in America and more around the world.  This means if your city is a medium size draw, not on a legendary track... you no longer have a PGA tourney in your city/state.

- Smaller fields... that means putting about 200 players out of work between the PGA and DP tour. 

 

If you want these two things... you want the death of the PGA tour.  Its that simple. 

[Zitlow]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Billy?

 

They encourage him to spend as much time abroad as he likes

 

 

 

Deep Thoughts With Billy Ho

[aus10KC]

16 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

 

Exactly. The first LIV event was in London while the PGA tour was playing in Canada. "American Soil" wasnt touched

 

North America is where the PGAT draws the line, not just US soil.

[So_Cal]

1 hour ago, seis said:

I am one of the few on this site I think that like to watch Billy Horschel. If you know of him off the course he seems to be kind of a Europhile. He has played overseas more often recently and is a Euro soccer fan. This may explain more than a supposed ulterior motive for playing on the DP Tour this week, that and maybe some appearance money. He seems to be popular with golf fans overseas.

I’m not sure if overseas fans know who Horschel is.  They just like a pro who calls them buddy.  

[bfactor]

I can't see any logical reason that the Tour would deny Horschel a release when Travelers had commitments from the top four of the FedEx cup standings, along with half of the OWGR Top 10 + Spieth (OWGR #11 now 😪), Finau, Xander, etc.  That's a strong showing for Travelers and the fans this week, which translates into happy sponsors who won't notice that BH isn't in the field.

 

A player asking for a 8-14 or more releases annually for another tour, directly opposite PGA Tour events in the meat of the schedule, is quite another thing that's understandably not going to fly. Another tour that no sponsors would touch with a 10ft pole anyway doesn't have to even consider those things. Sure, play wherever you want when they don't have an event in that case, it only helps them...

[CasualLie]

Golfwrx is becoming the haven for LIV trolls.