Dave Pelz and the 64 deg wedge

[playit]

Whatever happened with the Dave Pelz theory of adding a 64 degree wedge? Do any pros use this currently? What about him teaching that system, does he? I see a couple of 64 degree wedges offered but has the 64 degree largely gone the way of the dodo bird? I did try to add the 64 several years ago over a period of a few months but it never stuck, I just used my 60 as max loft. Open the face if needed. What do you guys know about this?

[animalgolfs]

I know a 64* is useless 99.01% of the time....on the courses I play regularly 

[rsballer10]

17 minutes ago, playit said:

Whatever happened with the Dave Pelz theory of adding a 64 degree wedge? Do any pros use this currently? What about him teaching that system, does he? I see a couple of 64 degree wedges offered but has the 64 degree largely gone the way of the dodo bird? I did try to add the 64 several years ago over a period of a few months but it never stuck, I just used my 60 as max loft. Open the face if needed. What do you guys know about this?

 

Trends in golf come and go, I believe the strokes gained approach really killed the popularity of having an abundance of wedges with very narrow gapping.

 

It also isn't necessary - like others say regarding this topic, just open a 60 degree 1/4 turn and you've got the same thing basically.

[playit]

I found this article that is negative for amateurs...

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/why-amateurs-should-stop-carrying-a-64-degree-wedge

 

In there, a 2019 article, it said only three pros were using it at an October 2019 tourney... Phil, Morgan Hoffmann and Rhein Gibson.

[uglande]

Unless your name is Mickelson, or you spend every day hitting wedge shots like Pelz, a 64-degree wedge is going to produce more bad shots than good ones. 

[xmanhockey7]

I played one for many years and loved it. Being short sided was a non issue. Instead of opening the face (more risk) I played square face shots. Ball got up in the air pretty high and landed soft. Felt like cheating. 

[iknowbagu]

I played either a 62° or 64° for a long time and liked it.  Ultimately it just came down to not being able to justify the spot in the bag for such a specialty club.  That said, it is certainly not for everybody.  In fact, for the overwhelming majority of golfers I think it would actually be a detriment.  

 

 

Unpopular opinion - Pelz is a hack.  Yeah, I said it.  No real surprise there aren't more people playing his "system".

[bazinky]

The 64 is only useful in limited situations. I've got a 64 wedge in the bag right now due to the unique characteristics of my home club. It's a shorter course, with fast greens that are small, firm, and heavily sloped. I've found the 64 to be great for short-sided chips/pitches and the 40-70 yard approach that stops on a dime. I end up with enough of those type of shots at my home course to warrant the 64. The key for me is grip down with it on pitches/chips, and never try to swing more that 80% on a full shot. Trying to hit a 64 hard is a recipe for disaster.

 

On longer courses with bigger greens, I don't have those type of shots frequently enough to warrant such a high-lofted wedge. I'll usually swap the 64 for another hybrid or fairway at the top of my bag when playing other courses.  

Edited September 13, 2021 by bazinky

[A-A-RonCCC]

I have a TM 64* Hi-Toe.  It can be useful, but ultimately for every shot it saves it probably costs more with the ball running up the face too much.

[nitram]

Like most specialty tools, the 64° has its place. The main questions are; can you use it effectively and if so, is it worth what you're giving up on the other end of your bag? Obviously it's not for everyone and considering the arguments within this website about dropping from a 60 to a 58 or 56, I don't see a 'worthiness consensus' being reached anytime soon.

 

As far as the comment about Pelz being a hack. I can't attest to his golf scores as I've never personally witnessed him hitting a golf ball. However, his contributions were ground breaking, used by some of the best short game players ever, and should be considered valuable to the golfing masses.

[postfold]

Dunno about Pelz or the pros, but I have a 64 in the bag and find it useful ... within limits.  It's a specialty tool for deep bunkers, short flops and the very occasional pitch when I need a shot that stops stone dead.  If I needed slots in the bag for fairways I'd probably drop it but since I have room why not.

[GLF4EVR]

A 58 if what I have in the bag.  Have a friend that has a 64.  Have used a couple on times on the practice green.  It is kind of fun to play around with.  Brings a whole new meaning to the term drop & stop.  The guy that has it, I tease him now & then.  I will ask him if he has a fear of the ball coming up in his face with that thing.

[chasdr]

Being a shorter hitter, my game is all about the third shot (on par 4's) getting close the pin.  In that context the 64* wedge probably saves me at least one shot a side (sometimes more) when I find myself short sided close to the green or in a bunker.  Certainly it requires practice to use this specialized wedge consistently and I agree that you generally don't want to swing at anything greater than 80% to maintain control.  However, my own experience has been that to use this high a loft wedge requires that you maintain an aggressive swing speed and trust that the ball will stop where you want it to...of course this is not always the case...

Edited September 13, 2021 by chasdr

[playit]

FWIW, I love my 60 degree, it is my favorite club; I tried to like the 64 but didn't really find it was much more useful than the 60, plus, each club is a valuable slot in a 14-club limit. I also practiced quite a bit with the 64 (and all wedges), kind of the Pelz method of dialing in short pitches. My fave shot is a short wedge shot for birdie from the fairway. Hit a big drive, then a wedge? I simply learned to hit the high spin shot with 60 deg from tight lies, the skip and stop. I didn't find that the 64 was so good at that for me.

[zeoalex]

I have a 76* I carry from time to time. 

 

Those times are when I'm drinking, mostly, but the point remains.  I either hit a perfect shot or skull it off the planet 

[Superfast2.0]

May be hard to justify carrying a 64 for a lot of people with how little they may need to use it. If you add a 64, what club can you take out? FW, long iron or another wedge?

[RogerinNewZealand]

54,60 were my go to last 18 months,with 60 really just in Sand.Got a mate plays 60 so often...and it looses him shots often..i am confident my new full face 58 will be good enough in sand and drop n stop.

[SwingMan]

Tried it 12 years ago when it was more in vogue with a 62. It was sometimes useful but it's not needed now or today unless...

 

The sole reason I can think of having one is if you have a lot of crowned greens with hole locations on the crown and you want ball to brake and hold - but you've got to have skill to do that. Most do not. Don't know if I do and I experiment all the time. My verdict is "Don't waste your money." Try to make use of your money someplace else in the bag.

[ChipNRun]

Back in 2000, Pelz packaged two decades of research on chips and wedges into Short Game Bible. He advocated back then to going to 4 wedges in the bag. Plus, the clock system was used to control distance. See diagram (red loft ranges inserted by me from info elsewhere in the book).

 

One curious diagram note is the absence of a Gap Wedge (AKA Utility, Attack, Approach). For a long time, Pelz and club designer Ralph Maltby suggested that the GW wasn't really necessary, if one just mastered partial swings.

 

This is interesting, as GWs began appearing in the early 1990s in club models such as the Titleist DCI Black (released in 1993). The idea was to fill the loft gap between the SW and the PW, when the pitches delofted to the high-40 degree range.

 

Since 2000, Pelz has come around and now recommends having up to Five Wedges:

 

"Pros will hit 7-10 shots from inside 125 yards every time they play. Amateurs will hit many more shots from that distance, and the truth is that amateurs need wedges more than pros. And they need more wedges to cover more distance gaps. Personally, I carry five wedges and each is a different loft, has a different length, and has a different bounce.”

 

Reality check: Most pros do it with three or four wedges in the bag. And, a few still carry a 64° in the bag.

 

The 64° LW, or extreme wedge, takes a bit of time to practice. Many players feel they can get the same benefit from a LW cut shot. And, it's one less club to practice if you drop the 64°.

 

 

I need to explain my bag mix a little. I have just three true wedges, but I use a 1/4 and 1/2 9-iron shot to cover a couple of distances. At times I consider dropping the 48° in favor of PW + GW... Lately I'm getting too many dicey "in between" shots over water.

[lazyjc4]

If you regularly play greens that don't require high lofted, soft landing shots, then the 64* isn't going to do you much good.  If you do, and you're skilled enough to hit flops and sand shots that stop quickly, then you probably don't need one, either.  It's helped me because I don't really have the time to work on manipulating a 58 or 60 degree, and I can hit the short game shots my courses require with the 64. 

[GeauxGolfLSU]

I throw a 64° PM Grind wedge in the bag from time to time. It is super easy to hit from bunkers and there may be a shot or two a round that it's good for around the greens. But I have zero confidence hitting any sort of full or even partial shot with it. So it only goes in the bag when I'm struggling with my sand game and need a boost of confidence. Although the recent addition of the 60° Full Toe wedge may even keep that 64° in the backup bag for good.

[SwingMan]

If anyone is struggling with their sand game, there is the venerable Ping Eye2 sole, which the PM Grind, come to think of it, kinda' copied. Phil is great at taking and modifying what he wants - Ping Eye 2 sole, Edel's Grooves to the edge..

[Billfitz]

I've got a 64. It's in my garage, where it's resided for four or five years now. I never used it enough for it to justify taking up a spot in my bag. What it did I can still do with my 60 taking a 3/4 swing.

[steventoo]

I am not a very good golfer by any stretch of the imagination, but my 64 degree wedge isn't the reason. I absolutely love it for greenside bunkers and flops, but it comes in handy in all kinds of situations.

 

My home course is a links course on top of a mountain, and the greens are often surrounded by mounds or hills... which have fluffy rough on them. The 64 lets me get the ball stopped on the green from those lies, particularly when the pin is placed so it doesn't give me much green to work with.

 

I often find myself opening the 64 even further and playing it with a fair bit of speed. I don't use it every round, but I practice all kinds of shots with it: sand, flops, bump and runs, face open, face closed, tight lies, fluffy lies, mud... it's very versatile.

[kiwihacker]

19 hours ago, animalgolfs said:

I know a 64* is useless 99.01% of the time....on the courses I play regularly 

99.9% for me. 

[kiwihacker]

It's interesting how the game has evolved and wedge makeup has changed a bit.

 

Back in the mid 2000's the common 4 wedge setup was PW/52/56/60 so adding a 64° meant carrying a 5th wedge.

 

These days we seem to be happy with bigger loft increments in our wedges so PW/52/58/64 is an option for those that want a 64° but only want to carry 4 wedges. 

 

Me personally I can't even use a 60° consistently so 58° is the maximum lofted wedge in my bag. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by kiwihacker

[bankbank]

I have a 64 wedge that I never use... last time I took it out was 4 years ago. When I took it out to play, I would always manage to screw up a shot or two. It's great for miracle shots, but that's a crapshoot on results. I'm a 4 hcp and I think it's difficult to hit it the way I want 99% of the time

[MattyO1984]

Toyed with one a few years ago as a demo that our Pro had. Honestly, could not see the benefit of it. I can see that there are courses where it would be helpful but those are few and far between in Scotland. The most I got out of it was hitting some flops to see how high I could get them to go. Fun on the practice ground, not really something that translates to the golf course 😂

[Mookieb10]

1 hour ago, MattyO1984 said:

Toyed with one a few years ago as a demo that our Pro had. Honestly, could not see the benefit of it. I can see that there are courses where it would be helpful but those are few and far between in Scotland. The most I got out of it was hitting some flops to see how high I could get them to go. Fun on the practice ground, not really something that translates to the golf course 😂

Hmmm. I’m going to scootland and I’m dropping the 64 for the trip. 47, 53, 60. Why you think a 64 is useful there?

[MattyO1984]

18 minutes ago, Mookieb10 said:

Hmmm. I’m going to scootland and I’m dropping the 64 for the trip. 47, 53, 60. Why you think a 64 is useful there?

 

No sorry, I was saying that courses like that are few and far between here. General lack of rough around the greens make it pretty much redundant.