Cost of Being A Tour Player

[Creedo77]

12 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Thx. I was wrong about that (didn't know). 

Only exception is typically if you’re traveling to play in Asia as the airfare is pretty steep

[bobfoster]

43 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Only exception is typically if you’re traveling to play in Asia as the airfare is pretty steep

I do business in both Tokyo and Beijing (though I haven't been able to get there for the past couple years). Travel/lodging in some parts of Asia can get out-of-hand expensive.

[76mpg]

3 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

What do you mean have clothes ready?  A chef had an "other duties as assigned" clause?

I guess. He said here is a ton of down time and also food at the course for at least one of their meals, so he said he would help them with a few other things as well...not hard to believe or much of a big deal id imagine.

[tacklingdummy]

4 hours ago, Creedo77 said:

I can relate to the whole Kuchar incident. 
 

When I was still looping at my local Tpc we hosted an event in 2018. I was the only caddie there to get a bag for the week. I didn’t negotiate properly because I was just happy to do it nor did I want the player to have his wife do it which is what he was thinking at first. 
 

I asked what I could expect after a Tuesday practice round and was told $150 which is less than I’d make in a normal day out there. I was pretty green to talking %s and said player ended up making $43000 that week and gave me a check for $900. At the end of the day the networking I did was worth the extra $2000/$3000 I missed out on

 

Agree with statement. A lot of people starting out don't understand the "foot in the door" concept and look further down the road. If unproven in any industry or if someone has no knowledge of a person's skills and expertise, just getting a chance to showcase your skills and expertise will open a lot of doors. Word gets around quickly if a person is good. 

 

 

[bobfoster]

11 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

Agree with statement. A lot of people starting out don't understand the "foot in the door" concept and look further down the road. If unproven in any industry or if someone has no knowledge of a person's skills and expertise, just getting a chance to showcase your skills and expertise will open a lot of doors. Word gets around quickly if a person is good. 

 

 

+100. Have been in business for a loooong time (about to retire). Every success I've ever had was through relationships. Both the jobs I had early, and the success in running my own company. Forget Monster, or Dice, or any job boards. My first jobs I just took at below what anyone else wanted. But I considered it my Trojan Horse. Met people. Networked. Got better, proved my worth. Quickly went from begging to getting invited. Same with my current clients. Trying to crack into a new one? I'll ask for a small project, and throw my absolute best people at it. At prices that at best break even, and sometimes lose money. And then blow their socks off. 

 

Anyone that wants to break into a new industry? Get good. Then be willing to enter it at below scale. Get (as tacklingdummy rightly said) your "foot in the door". Don't think of it as a loss, but more like an investment. And then network your Word not allowed off. Get on the field, then farm it. Every industry I've ever worked in (and its been a few) was the same. They seem large, but are actually contained. The leaders talk to each other. Everyone goes to the same conferences and industry events. People get talked about, up and coming talent get known. 

 

I get that it appears as though we are living in a sort of anonymous internet world, but what holds true now is quite similar to what held true 50 years ago. Cultivate people and demonstrate worth, even if you initially have to take a financial hit to enter a new industry. It is still just how its done. People with the authority to hire do not just hire resumes unless they have to, they hire people (whenever possible) that are known and proven. 

[Mustard_Tiger]

9 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Yeah, you get some mixed opinions on them.  They certainly aren't traditional in their views on golf, so they don't exactly skew towards the older crowd.  But they do have their moments as well.  I particularly enjoyed their discussion of the Reed incident in San Diego this year.  They do get some good guests as well.

 

I don't listen to them religiously, but if there was a hot topic or something the prior week, I like hearing their opinions, even if I don't agree.  They do a decent job of backing them up.

 

 

Solly is as good an interviewer as anyone in golf. Very knowledgeable and comes up with questions that most journalists don't think of. But the rest of them are dope smoking morons. I skip the group podcasts but will listen to the interviews that Solly does.

 

I think Solly is like the amazing lead singer of an up and coming band but the rest of the band is garbage. And a record exec needs to step in and tell that person to go solo.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Mustard_Tiger

[BIG STU]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:57 PM, golfortennis said:

 

I just received notifications from both of these asking that you cease and desist with attempting to associate yourself with them. 

 

They have an image to keep up.  

 

(Heard from a friend, of course....)

 

Oh well I guess they are mad at me because I retired from the minis some time ago---- I don't go anywhere no more so I do not use Motel 6  But I did before pre pandemic still eat at Waffle Houses--- But they never did sponsor me I did spend my own money when I had some. I might have done pretty well if those 2 had of sponsored me

[golfortennis]

2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Oh well I guess they are mad at me because I retired from the minis some time ago---- I don't go anywhere no more so I do not use Motel 6  But I did before pre pandemic still eat at Waffle Houses--- But they never did sponsor me I did spend my own money when I had some. I might have done pretty well if those 2 had of sponsored me

 

I was just messin' with you there.  Had you mentioned Denny's, though, then it would have been a more serious post.  🙂

 

Hopefully you can get going again soon.

[BIG STU]

17 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

I was just messin' with you there.  Had you mentioned Denny's, though, then it would have been a more serious post.  🙂

 

Hopefully you can get going again soon.

Oh yeah I knew that---- For some reason even before the pandemic all but one Dennys in the Grand Strand area  of SC shut down. Have no idea if they were Company owned or franchises. I am back going pretty decent from my accident 18 months ago now. But even before that I had gotten too old to play comp any more. But I am enjoying retirement playing golf 3 or 4 times a week. I had retired from my regular job ( truck driver) and was working 2 days a week when I got hurt

[MattyO1984]

Some of those figures seem absolutely astronomical. The one that gets me the most is the Chefs though. I get that these a pro athletes and that nutrition is important for them but really, surely it is not that complicated for them.   

[Ferguson]

3 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

Some of those figures seem absolutely astronomical. The one that gets me the most is the Chefs though. I get that these a pro athletes and that nutrition is important for them but really, surely it is not that complicated for them.   

A private chef - nothing like it.

 

In 2018 we were gifted a vacation with 3 other couples.  I have a gracious friend and his wife who does this for us about every 3-5 years.  Since I was in at no charge, I kicked the extra for a private chef as a surprise.  It was nothing short of fantastic. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fairway14]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:09 PM, BNGL said:

Gotcha thank you. Again the whole crux of the issue for me is he paid what was agreed to. This whole rigmarole of social justice activism saying that’s not fair or not what I expected…it’s what was agreed too and in Matt’s defense he reportedly went above and beyond what was “agreed to” until a story breaks that says explicitly they agreed to an amount more than what was paid, regardless of what’s right according to other people, I will never ever see the point to the criticism he faced from fans and his peers and the Tour. 

 

The point is that Kuchar won the tournament.  Traditional caddie pay for a win is 10%. It does not matter where the caddie lives or whether it is his first time or thousandth time working as a caddie or whether he is a substitute caddie, or whether there was an agreement that making the cut would pay X % , that top  20 or top 10 would pay X % percentage etc...A win is a separate , very special thing and the tradition is for a caddie to earn 10% for a win.

If Kuchar is so frugal that he wanted to ignore tradition and save a few bucks then his wife or agent should have been smart enough to advise him he would get in trouble for doing so. Sadly, he wrecked his image for the rest of his career.

[playit]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The point is that Kuchar won the tournament.  Traditional caddie pay for a win is 10%. It does not matter where the caddie lives or whether it is his first time or thousandth time working as a caddie or whether he is a substitute caddie, or whether there was an agreement that making the cut would pay X % , that top  20 or top 10 would pay X % percentage etc...A win is a separate , very special thing and the tradition is for a caddie to earn 10% for a win.

If Kuchar is so frugal that he wanted to ignore tradition and save a few bucks then his wife or agent should have been smart enough to advise him he would get in trouble for doing so. Sadly, he wrecked his image for the rest of his career.

 

Makes me wonder if the "traditional pay" is the same for a one-off caddie? For ANYone who is not his regular caddie to earn $130,000 for toting his bag around the course for a few days seems a bit undeserving. Didn't they say he did not advise him on club selection, nor read putts? If a golfer "must" pay 10% to a caddie no matter how uninvolved he was, then I'd advise any tour player to call up a friend or family member to tote the bag for any event!

 

I would also think that if there is a "universal rule" that 10% is paid to the caddie, that it was likely "designed" to reward a regular caddie who is something more than a bag-toter and is somewhat more along the line of a long-term team member who can be quite an asset to a pro golfer.

 

Just some contrarian thoughts.

 

EDIT:  After thinking about this more, based on the story as reported, I think the caddie should be admonished for being greedy. He doesn't deserve any more than what Kuchar originally paid. I think he is the jerk, not Kuchar.

Edited October 4, 2021 by playit

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, playit said:

 

Makes me wonder if the "traditional pay" is the same for a one-off caddie? For ANYone who is not his regular caddie to earn $130,000 for toting his bag around the course for a few days seems a bit undeserving. Didn't they say he did not advise him on club selection, nor read putts? If a golfer "must" pay 10% to a caddie no matter how uninvolved he was, then I'd advise any tour player to call up a friend or family member to tote the bag for any event!

 

I would also think that if there is a "universal rule" that 10% is paid to the caddie, that it was likely "designed" to reward a regular caddie who is something more than a bag-toter and is somewhat more along the line of a long-term team member who can be quite an asset to a pro golfer.

 

Just some contrarian thoughts.

 

Kuchar (or anyone else)  can come up with all sorts of justifications to not pay a caddie 10% for a win, but all of them ring hollow. A win is huge for any career, including the Masters invitation, 2 year Tour exemption, payout from endorsement contract bonus clauses, increased exposure which is attractive to potential new sponsors etc.... When one adds up all the positives that come with a win it is easy to understand how and why paying a caddie 10% for a win is a long standing tradition. 

[BNGL]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The point is that Kuchar won the tournament.  Traditional caddie pay for a win is 10%. It does not matter where the caddie lives or whether it is his first time or thousandth time working as a caddie or whether he is a substitute caddie, or whether there was an agreement that making the cut would pay X % , that top  20 or top 10 would pay X % percentage etc...A win is a separate , very special thing and the tradition is for a caddie to earn 10% for a win.

If Kuchar is so frugal that he wanted to ignore tradition and save a few bucks then his wife or agent should have been smart enough to advise him he would get in trouble for doing so. Sadly, he wrecked his image for the rest of his career.

No you’ll simply never ever be able to convince me otherwise. From everything that’s been made public they had an agreement, Matt held up his end then some. If neither he nor that temp fill in negotiated for a what a win would be that’s on them. 
His image was “wrecked” because people wanna tell those that have more how they should spend their money like it’s our responsibility to prop up those that don’t have as much. He held up his end of the agreement based on everything we know that became public, that 10 percent tradition rule is mostly standard amongst regular loopers BUT it does vary from player to player the specific agreements but again from everything we know Matt held up his end of the deal and then some. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by BNGL

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, BNGL said:

No you’ll simply never ever be able to convince me otherwise. From everything that’s been made public they had an agreement, Matt held up his end then some. If neither he nor that temp fill in negotiated for a what a win would be that’s on them. 

 

It does not matter what you or me think about the situation. What matters is that Kuchar ruined his reputation. Now he and his family have to live with it, which is a sad thing.

[caniac6]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The point is that Kuchar won the tournament.  Traditional caddie pay for a win is 10%. It does not matter where the caddie lives or whether it is his first time or thousandth time working as a caddie or whether he is a substitute caddie, or whether there was an agreement that making the cut would pay X % , that top  20 or top 10 would pay X % percentage etc...A win is a separate , very special thing and the tradition is for a caddie to earn 10% for a win.

If Kuchar is so frugal that he wanted to ignore tradition and save a few bucks then his wife or agent should have been smart enough to advise him he would get in trouble for doing so. Sadly, he wrecked his image for the rest of his career.

Sergio won in Greensboro a few years ago with some local guy carrying his bag. That's all he did. Carry the bag. No yardages, no putt reading, no club help. Sergio didn't give him 10%, and wasn't roasted for it, either.

[BNGL]

18 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

Sergio won in Greensboro a few years ago with some local guy carrying his bag. That's all he did. Carry the bag. No yardages, no putt reading, no club help. Sergio didn't give him 10%, and wasn't roasted for it, either.

Probably because the bag man didn’t go public with what he felt he was supposed to get. Again I’m totally willing and open to changing my opinion if there’s more the story. 

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/1/2021 at 9:25 AM, golfday said:

Article says a top 30 players golf related expenditures in a year (travel, coaches, etc.) is estimated to be between $1.88MM and $2.08MM. That seemed really high to me. That's more than 50% of of the tour earnings that guy in the 20 - 30 range on PGA tour will make in a season, and the guys in that range aren't getting huge endorsement deals anymore either.

My first thought, was it's low.  Then again, I used to travel first class and charter a great deal.  Remember, the author was guesstimating. 

 

IMO for that level of player, sponsor money covers most, if not all of that and then some.  

 

Pro's at that level have LLC's or Sub S corps.  Not sure when Tour players qualify for PGA retirement plan, but the above guys most likely have them.  Which means, a Sub S may be the better choice, as paying into SS is an option.

[BNGL]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

My first thought, was it's low.  Then again, I used to travel first class and charter a great deal.  Remember, the author was guesstimating. 

 

IMO for that level of player, sponsor money covers most, if not all of that and then some.  

 

Pro's at that level have LLC's or Sub S corps.  Not sure when Tour players qualify for PGA retirement plan, but the above guys most likely have them.  Which means, a Sub S may be the better choice, as paying into SS is an option.

When they can start collecting depends on several factors mostly whether or not they’re active on either the PGA Tour or Champions Tour. If they are it’s 60, but could be as early as 50 if they are no longer active. FedEx Cup deferred money could be accessed over 5-7 year period beginning at 45 if the player wanted. (These are old numbers but accurate as of mid 2010s if I remember correctly). 

 

The PGA Tour is by far the best retirement plan for athletes, and employees too for that matter. It’s insane how good the healthcare and retirement benefits are. Makes sense though when you think about all the sponsors of the PGA Tour. 

[caniac6]

3 hours ago, BNGL said:

Probably because the bag man didn’t go public with what he felt he was supposed to get. Again I’m totally willing and open to changing my opinion if there’s more the story. 

I'm pretty sure he got paid fairly well, but not up to Tour standards. The guy was a caddie at Eagle Point in Wilmington, and caddied in the Pro Am, and Sergio hired him to carry his bag in the tournament. I don't think there were any hard feelings on the caddie's part, unlike the situation with Kooch.

Edited October 4, 2021 by caniac6

[straightshot7]

4 hours ago, BNGL said:

No you’ll simply never ever be able to convince me otherwise. From everything that’s been made public they had an agreement, Matt held up his end then some. If neither he nor that temp fill in negotiated for a what a win would be that’s on them. 
His image was “wrecked” because people wanna tell those that have more how they should spend their money like it’s our responsibility to prop up those that don’t have as much. He held up his end of the agreement based on everything we know that became public, that 10 percent tradition rule is mostly standard amongst regular loopers BUT it does vary from player to player the specific agreements but again from everything we know Matt held up his end of the deal and then some. 

Oh boy, here we go with the "agreement" argument again.

Ortiz, the caddie, actually claims he asked for 10 percent in the event of a win (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/11/11/david-el-tucan-ortiz-reveals-his-side-of-caddiegate-debacle-with-matt-kuchar/40587901/). So what agreement are you actually talking about? Can we see a copy of it? 

 

Winning $1.3 million and paying $5,000 to the caddie is crazy, no matter what agreement you think they had! That would only mean it was a very unfair agreement to begin with!

 

The correct approach would be: "I know we didn't have an official agreement on this. But, I would pay my full time caddie $130,000 for this. How about $75,000 or $100,000 to you? Is that fair?"

 

Or something along those lines ^^^. Not: "Here's $5,000. Deal with it."

 

By the way, Kuchar praised Ortiz during the week. Who knows, having a local caddie may have been instrumental in his victory that week. He was definitely not just carrying the bag. Kuchar said he got the crowd in his favor and helped tremendously.

 

 

[farmer]

Kuch tips the caddie 130k, everyone loves him, then the caddie goes home and discovers the local cartel guys have kidnapped his family.  Not gonna happen for 5k.

[BNGL]

40 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

Oh boy, here we go with the "agreement" argument again.

Ortiz, the caddie, actually claims he asked for 10 percent in the event of a win (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2019/11/11/david-el-tucan-ortiz-reveals-his-side-of-caddiegate-debacle-with-matt-kuchar/40587901/). So what agreement are you actually talking about? Can we see a copy of it? 

 

Winning $1.3 million and paying $5,000 to the caddie is crazy, no matter what agreement you think they had! That would only mean it was a very unfair agreement to begin with!

 

The correct approach would be: "I know we didn't have an official agreement on this. But, I would pay my full time caddie $130,000 for this. How about $75,000 or $100,000 to you? Is that fair?"

 

Or something along those lines ^^^. Not: "Here's $5,000. Deal with it."

 

By the way, Kuchar praised Ortiz during the week. Who knows, having a local caddie may have been instrumental in his victory that week. He was definitely not just carrying the bag. Kuchar said he got the crowd in his favor and helped tremendously.

 

 

So from what I had read/heard (without perusing your link) they made their agreement, then the local asked 10 percent for a win according to him Matt said sure and laughed thinking nothing of it. Then he wins gives him an envelope with 5k cash goes on his way. When he felt like he didn’t get his fair share, he reached out to Matt/his agent with the help of the GM to help with the language barrier. When they replied nope 5k is fair that’s when it blew up with the tournament prepping to pay him, also the GM supposedly accusing Matt of racial discrimination over it. If there was ever anything solid and concrete from both sides saying 10 percent, not just this caddie I’d agree with everyone else’s sentiment that he screwed the caddie but as I see it and from I have read and know in my opinion he didn’t do anything wrong at all and people shouldn’t have jumped down his throat with what he was supposed to do. TBH I wish he wouldn’t have paid anything more, but what happened was the public and media forced him into paying which isn’t right at all. If he wanted to give him all the cash or none of it that’s his business none of ours to decide what is right or wrong in this case. Normally I am all for people trying to make a change if they see something wrong. If you think the teachers at your kids school suck. Go to PTA meetings, school board meetings voice your concerns get involved or move your kid to a different school. But when it comes to telling people how to spend their money I have zero tolerance for it. Zero. None. Nada.

[BNGL]

8 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

It does not matter what you or me think about the situation. What matters is that Kuchar ruined his reputation. Now he and his family have to live with it, which is a sad thing.

I’m fairly positive that he and his family aren’t losing any sleep over it at all. I can’t and don’t speak for them by any stretch but seriously doubt it’s bugging them.

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, BNGL said:

So from what I had read/heard (without perusing your link) they made their agreement, then the local asked 10 percent for a win according to him Matt said sure and laughed thinking nothing of it. Then he wins gives him an envelope with 5k cash goes on his way. When he felt like he didn’t get his fair share, he reached out to Matt/his agent with the help of the GM to help with the language barrier. When they replied nope 5k is fair that’s when it blew up with the tournament prepping to pay him, also the GM supposedly accusing Matt of racial discrimination over it. If there was ever anything solid and concrete from both sides saying 10 percent, not just this caddie I’d agree with everyone else’s sentiment that he screwed the caddie but as I see it and from I have read and know in my opinion he didn’t do anything wrong at all and people shouldn’t have jumped down his throat with what he was supposed to do. TBH I wish he wouldn’t have paid anything more, but what happened was the public and media forced him into paying which isn’t right at all. If he wanted to give him all the cash or none of it that’s his business none of ours to decide what is right or wrong in this case. Normally I am all for people trying to make a change if they see something wrong. If you think the teachers at your kids school suck. Go to PTA meetings, school board meetings voice your concerns get involved or move your kid to a different school. But when it comes to telling people how to spend their money I have zero tolerance for it. Zero. None. Nada.

 

Sure but we can still call Kuch a cheap bastid.

 

🤣

 

I doubt he’d argue. 
 

TW is notoriously cheap. 
 

Who can say why people are like this? As you say, it’s their cash. And it seems some seem generous in charitable work. They just can’t stand to put their hand in their pocket.

 

Like wife’s cousin. Guy will come over bearing a bottle of wine. 
 

And it will already be open with a glass drunk out of it!

 

He’s actually proud of it. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by bscinstnct

[straightshot7]

3 hours ago, BNGL said:

So from what I had read/heard (without perusing your link) they made their agreement, then the local asked 10 percent for a win according to him Matt said sure and laughed thinking nothing of it. Then he wins gives him an envelope with 5k cash goes on his way. When he felt like he didn’t get his fair share, he reached out to Matt/his agent with the help of the GM to help with the language barrier. When they replied nope 5k is fair that’s when it blew up with the tournament prepping to pay him, also the GM supposedly accusing Matt of racial discrimination over it. If there was ever anything solid and concrete from both sides saying 10 percent, not just this caddie I’d agree with everyone else’s sentiment that he screwed the caddie but as I see it and from I have read and know in my opinion he didn’t do anything wrong at all and people shouldn’t have jumped down his throat with what he was supposed to do. TBH I wish he wouldn’t have paid anything more, but what happened was the public and media forced him into paying which isn’t right at all. If he wanted to give him all the cash or none of it that’s his business none of ours to decide what is right or wrong in this case. Normally I am all for people trying to make a change if they see something wrong. If you think the teachers at your kids school suck. Go to PTA meetings, school board meetings voice your concerns get involved or move your kid to a different school. But when it comes to telling people how to spend their money I have zero tolerance for it. Zero. None. Nada.

Yet here you are commenting on how Kuchar should spend his money or not. Or how much the caddie should feel he deserves.

 

Did you read my previous post?

You're okay with a $5,000 payment on a $1.3 million payout?

The whole "it's not our business" argument just doesn't hold water. It is our business. We watch these tournaments, we buy the tickets, we buy the merchandise, our viewership drives the ad sales. 

 

If one of the players, who is being sold to us as a good guy, does something like this, it's okay if we find out.

 

I wonder if you use this whole "it's not our business" argument in regard to Tiger Woods and all of his scandals?

[straightshot7]

3 hours ago, farmer said:

Kuch tips the caddie 130k, everyone loves him, then the caddie goes home and discovers the local cartel guys have kidnapped his family.  Not gonna happen for 5k.

Yup. Kuch was just trying to protect the man and his family. Totally. 

[ChipStrokes]

13 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

I wonder if you use this whole "it's not our business" argument in regard to Tiger Woods and all of his scandals?

unless you were a chili’s waitress in the early 2000s, it’s literally the definition of none of your business. 

[BNGL]

22 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

Yet here you are commenting on how Kuchar should spend his money or not. Or how much the caddie should feel he deserves.

 

Did you read my previous post?

You're okay with a $5,000 payment on a $1.3 million payout?

The whole "it's not our business" argument just doesn't hold water. It is our business. We watch these tournaments, we buy the tickets, we buy the merchandise, our viewership drives the ad sales. 

 

If one of the players, who is being sold to us as a good guy, does something like this, it's okay if we find out.

 

I wonder if you use this whole "it's not our business" argument in regard to Tiger Woods and all of his scandals?

I’m not commenting on how he should or shouldn’t my comments were based on the terms of the deal disclosed he met them and went above on beyond to the point where he even said I’m not losing sleep. Bend the knee and take the L son