LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[fowlerscousin]

This win for brooks is huge for liv. It says a lot if you win a liv event with brooks in the field.

[Nixhex524]

3 hours ago, King_Slender said:

MODS: Is there a list of what can and cannot be discussed about LIV and where in the forum?  Some discussions about LIV should be able to live outside this one thread.

 

 

Would love to have a discussion on how Brad Faxon put a nail in Brandel Chamblee here:

 

 

Brandel can't fathom that anyone would push back against his LIV hate.

 

This argument is especially empty when FedEx, probably the biggest PGA Tour sponsor,  just signed a multi-billion dollar development agreement with Saudi Arabia.

 

That was awkward... LOL 

 

 

[Stevens24]

13 hours ago, jdl said:

He has no interest in playing.

Saw his comment after my post. Will likely get sponsor invites to the SoCal events though

[ahenderX]

8 hours ago, King_Slender said:

MODS: Is there a list of what can and cannot be discussed about LIV and where in the forum?  Some discussions about LIV should be able to live outside this one thread.

 

 

Would love to have a discussion on how Brad Faxon put a nail in Brandel Chamblee here:

 

 

Brandel can't fathom that anyone would push back against his LIV hate.

 

This argument is especially empty when FedEx, probably the biggest PGA Tour sponsor,  just signed a multi-billion dollar development agreement with Saudi Arabia.

I think the entire Golf Channel YouTube video should be seen, not just a snippet. Faxon makes his case and Chamblee makes his. In my opinion, offering a Ryder Cup spot to a LIV player is wrong, for many of the reasons pointed out in the video. Not surprising FedEx is working with the SA government. Very few corporations have ethical standards. Doubt the senior leadership of the PGA Tour have any. Here's the full video:

 

Should Brooks Koepka be allowed to play Ryder Cup? | Live from the PGA Championship | Golf Channel
 

Edited: After watching talking heads on Golf Channel, one with The Fried Egg, as a Ryder Cup viewer, I would be OK with Brooks playing. It appears the six players in the Ryder Cup, based on points, will have input in this decision.

Edited May 22, 2023 by ahenderX

[HomaComa]

14 hours ago, ahenderX said:

In Phil’s post PGA presser he revealed “I know things others don’t”. I’m open to suggestions what this might be.

Phil is full of crap and if he actually had anything legitimate on the tour he would’ve blabbed it by now 

[CDM]

6 hours ago, ahenderX said:

He was implying he had dirt on someone and he was going to air it soon. Here's a link from Golf.com.

 

‘I know things others don’t’: Cryptic Phil Mickelson presser ends odd PGA week

 

I tried to research this further. 

 

Our goverment interviewed Phil and others as it relates to the "Anti-Trust" investigation into the PGA Tour.   I think his comment "I know things others don't" is related to all the years he spent on the tour, probably infomration most others are not aware of.   The fact it is still being investigated is the interesting part I guess.

 

Two ways to look at this: 

 

Phil being PHIIL.....  more likely the case. 

 

Or the investigation is finding merrit in some aspects given the contracts signed and no compensatiion as noted prior in this thread.    I agree contracts are contracts when they are "legal" (vague view) in our govermental structure.

 

The other aspect,  maybe there is some aspect to the prior contracts not being "legal" per se? I note that since we know many players on tour were a bit surprised at the changes that came out and not included in discussion thinking the appointed player board rep's "had there back" as many were not happy.   I mean the PGAT was the only show in town and if you are good enough to play golf for living you are pretty much stuck with either sign the contract or not play?

 

The one item that stands out to me is when the justice department started to look into the PGA Tour contracts and Anti-Trust aspects it was not shortly after that the PGAT released they were going to start paying players up to 500K a year going forward.      

 

I still think if anything comes of this, doubt it, there ill be a slap on the wrist and some fine is all.  

[jdl]

2 hours ago, fowlerscousin said:

This win for brooks is huge for liv. It says a lot if you win a liv event with brooks in the field.

Because he now has 5 majors instead of 4? I think the win will mean some good PR for LIV but in the long run doesn't really change their outlook much. 

[Ghost of Snead]

1 hour ago, HomaComa said:

Phil is full of crap and if he actually had anything legitimate on the tour he would’ve blabbed it by now 

 

Billy Walters knows things others don't. 

[King_Slender]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

The argument against brooks has nothing to do with Saudi connections. And everything to do with not playing in real competitions more than 4 times a year now.  You can’t want to vote Brooks in for winning a major.  
 

would we have voted Block in if he had won ?   I think we all agree that’s a no.  But he was closer to winning the pga than say the number one player on earth.   Unfortunately for LIV guys , not playing in the Ryder cup is one of the trade offs for taking the deal and leaving.  

 

There has been no decision on banning LIV guys playing or not in the Ryder Cup - if they qualify based on points, they will be in.  To try and compare Brooks, a 5 time major winner at the top of his game qualifying to automatically putting Block in if he had one is disingenuous at best, laughable, really. 

 

There's no connection to the PGA Tour for the Ryder Cup other than the PGA of America and Euro Team using the prize money as a surrogate for qualifying points. There is certainly nothing official precluding any player from being a captain's pick.

[King_Slender]

2 hours ago, ahenderX said:

I think the entire Golf Channel YouTube video should be seen, not just a snippet. Faxon makes his case and Chamblee makes his. In my opinion, offering a Ryder Cup spot to a LIV player is wrong, for many of the reasons pointed out in the video. Not surprising FedEx is working with the SA government. Very few corporations have ethical standards. Doubt the senior leadership of the PGA Tour have any. Here's the full video:

 

Should Brooks Koepka be allowed to play Ryder Cup? | Live from the PGA Championship | Golf Channel

 

I completely agree, but the case made by the Tour (e.g. 'blood money!') against LIV players isn't genuine.  They are simply pissed that LIV stole some of their players because if they were truly aghast at people taking that money, they wouldn't work with corporations that do the exact same thing.  

 

I'm not saying LIV players should get OWGR points or anything like that, but the arguments against it are proving less and less valid.

[Golferpaul]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

The argument against brooks has nothing to do with Saudi connections. And everything to do with not playing in real competitions more than 4 times a year now.  You can’t want to vote Brooks in for winning a major.  
 

would we have voted Block in if he had won ?   I think we all agree that’s a no.  But he was closer to winning the pga than say the number one player on earth.   Unfortunately for LIV guys , not playing in the Ryder cup is one of the trade offs for taking the deal and leaving.  

The only question in my mind is "do you want to have the best US players on the US team?"  If the answer is yes, then it shouldn't matter what tour they play or if they are a club pro.  Nobody should be disqualified for the tour they choose to play or to not play.  The only legitimate debate is about who the best 12 US golfers are at selection time.

[Cactus Jack]

1 hour ago, HomaComa said:

Phil is full of crap and if he actually had anything legitimate on the tour he would’ve blabbed it by now 

 

People said the same thing about Jose Conseco... Everyone hated Jose, especially since he blew the whistle for self-gain, but in the end, he was right. Love him or hate him, Jose changed MLB forever.

 

To question Phil's credibility, given his three decades of interaction with the PGAT, seems premature and likely short-sighted. 

[PhilsFanDrew]

3 hours ago, fowlerscousin said:

This win for brooks is huge for liv. It says a lot if you win a liv event with brooks in the field.

 

Definitely.  It validates wins from the likes of Charles Howell III, Danny Lee, etc when they beat the likes of BK, DJ, Cam, Bryson, etc who also teed it up and played the same course at the same time in the same conditions.  At a field of 48 yes it's not going to have the numeric depth of some of the elevated PGA Tour events but there are many PGA Tour events now because of the way they structured their schedule where there is very little upper tier/elite PGAT players teeing it up and the only argument to say that is a more validated win is because of the number of participants. 

[Golferpaul]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Wiki ?  The place where I can change the stats myself ? 

This is true. Compare it to the PGAT..... the place where Monahan can delete any golfers he chooses to delete even if they have some of the best careers in the history of golf.

 

Wiki has the accurate lifetime earnings list.  NOT the PGAT website.

 

It's embarrassing that Wiki, which can be edited by anybody, would be more accurate than the PGAT website.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, ahenderX said:

In my opinion, offering a Ryder Cup spot to a LIV player is wrong, for many of the reasons pointed out in the video.

 

Which reasons align with why you personally believe this?

 

I tend to side more with Faxon and that the Ryder Cup is not wholly the property of the PGAT and DPWT (and by extension also the PGAT again).  The PGA of America is the custodian of the Ryder Cup process in the US and a 60/20/20 split between the DWPT and PGA of GBI and PGA of Europe per wikipedia.  It would seem a decision to exclude LIV players based upon their professional tour allegiance would not be consistent when the PGA of America allowed them to play in the PGA Championship and when I am assuming an American born player playing exclusively on the DPWT/Euro in the past would have been eligible as well.  To the best of my knowledge the American professional golfers on LIV are still PGA of A members.  When I searched the PGA of A member directory just now the LIV guys are there.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Thought the sports media world would be talking about a Liv golfer winnings a major? Turns out, Koepka is just a footnote to Block’s week.

[freeze16172002]

5 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I'm posting these quotes from memory, so maybe some can help with my quotes;

 

LIV hater quotes:

• These guys are all washed up
• Nobody wants to watch these washed up guys
• Playing guaranteed money events will make them less competitive
• Playing no-cut events will make them less competitive
• etc.

But look at this!  These "washed up, non-competitive" guys placed T2, T2, and T4 at the Masters then 1st and T4 at the PGA.  Can we all just agree that golf tournaments are better when they include ALL of the best golfers?  Not just the ones that Monahan hasn't scrubbed from his website. 

Do Tour players get to play Liv events? Not just the ones that Norman hasn't scrubbed. 

[pdxhak]

3 hours ago, ahenderX said:

I think the entire Golf Channel YouTube video should be seen, not just a snippet. Faxon makes his case and Chamblee makes his. In my opinion, offering a Ryder Cup spot to a LIV player is wrong, for many of the reasons pointed out in the video. Not surprising FedEx is working with the SA government. Very few corporations have ethical standards. Doubt the senior leadership of the PGA Tour have any. Here's the full video:

 

Should Brooks Koepka be allowed to play Ryder Cup? | Live from the PGA Championship | Golf Channel

Keep in mind Brooks is currently in 2nd place for Ryder Cup and the PGA of America said LIV players with eligibility can play. 

[HackerDave]

5 hours ago, fowlerscousin said:

This win for brooks is huge for liv. It says a lot if you win a liv event with brooks in the field.

Not really.   Its a big day for Brooks but is it really going to send people looking for the CW to watch exhibition golf?   What this means is LIV is paying a LOT of money for guys to get ready for the majors...which pay LIV nothing.   

[Dutch1008]

5 hours ago, fowlerscousin said:

This win for brooks is huge for liv. It says a lot if you win a liv event with brooks in the field.

Why? Brooks has a well established reputation for coasting through non-major events. He practically treats them like glorified practice rounds. Brooks only has one more pga tour win than Charles Howell III and Ian Poulter. He has fewer wins than Bryson and even Kevin Na. 

 

BTW I'm not knocking Brooks. Dude is a stick and a killer. But beating Brooks at a non-major is practically meaningless. He just doesn't care. Like all players of his generation, he heard Tiger talk up the importance of majors and peaking at the right time. Brooks has taken that mindset to its extreme.   

[HomaComa]

5 hours ago, CDM said:

 

I tried to research this further. 

 

Our goverment interviewed Phil and others as it relates to the "Anti-Trust" investigation into the PGA Tour.   I think his comment "I know things others don't" is related to all the years he spent on the tour, probably infomration most others are not aware of.   The fact it is still being investigated is the interesting part I guess.

 

Two ways to look at this: 

 

Phil being PHIIL.....  more likely the case. 

 

Or the investigation is finding merrit in some aspects given the contracts signed and no compensatiion as noted prior in this thread.    I agree contracts are contracts when they are "legal" (vague view) in our govermental structure.

 

The other aspect,  maybe there is some aspect to the prior contracts not being "legal" per se? I note that since we know many players on tour were a bit surprised at the changes that came out and not included in discussion thinking the appointed player board rep's "had there back" as many were not happy.   I mean the PGAT was the only show in town and if you are good enough to play golf for living you are pretty much stuck with either sign the contract or not play?

 

The one item that stands out to me is when the justice department started to look into the PGA Tour contracts and Anti-Trust aspects it was not shortly after that the PGAT released they were going to start paying players up to 500K a year going forward.      

 

I still think if anything comes of this, doubt it, there ill be a slap on the wrist and some fine is all.  

I used to be a big fan of Phil and didn’t care about his move to LIV. He’s just playing a different tour and making more money. It’s obvious Phil’s full of crap because no one else on LIV is even backing up his claims. I’ve actually got a ton of respect for Brooks, he’s still balling out at the majors while making bank on LIV. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I'm posting these quotes from memory, so maybe some can help with my quotes;

 

LIV hater quotes:

• These guys are all washed up
• Nobody wants to watch these washed up guys
• Playing guaranteed money events will make them less competitive
• Playing no-cut events will make them less competitive
• etc.

But look at this!  These "washed up, non-competitive" guys placed T2, T2, and T4 at the Masters then 1st and T4 at the PGA.  Can we all just agree that golf tournaments are better when they include ALL of the best golfers?  Not just the ones that Monahan hasn't scrubbed from his website. 

 

The joke was LIV = Limited, Injured, and Vintage

 

Limited: Self-explanatory. There are a lot of players on LIV that probably wouldn't ever sniff the PGAT, or those that were on the PGAT never really having any chance to become stars. Admittedly this is because the PGAT played hardball and didn't roll over and let LIV just poach star after star w/o consequence, so LIV had to take whatever they could to fill out the [limited] field. 

 

Injured: Brooks and Bryson were both dealing with nagging injuries. The Full Swing episode on Brooks really highlighted this, and it's obviously speculated that he took the LIV money bag because he wasn't sure he'd ever be able to compete at the level he held himself to. He's back to healthy, and although there's no sourcing that can verify this, it's been suggesting that he's regretted the move. 

 

Vintage: Again self-explanatory. Phil, Poults, Sergio, and a bunch of other guys were big names. "Were" being the key word there. Phil is tremendously talented, but he's no spring chicken. He seems to catch lightning in a bottle every once in a while, but generally has rather poor finishes otherwise. The other guys? Yeah, on the back end of their careers. I mean, I like Poults, and I'm a little sad to see him go to LIV because he's a character, but I can understand [especially after Full Swing] why it made sense. Someone offers you $30M when there's almost zero chance you'll earn 1/3 of that in the rest of your career, and then you're playing for obscene purses with no cut on top of it? That's money for your FAMILY. I get it. 

 

So that leaves guys like DJ, Cam, Reed, and MAYBE guys like Ancer, Niemann, and Oosty. So about 6 of 48 aren't limited, injured, or vintage. 

 

And as for who wants to watch them? Well, the limited/injured/vintage aren't that big of a draw, and when the guys you took away are some of the known malcontents, including the vintage folks like Phil/Sergio, the less-than-reputable Reed, the Brooks/Bryson E! level spat, etc, yeah it wasn't a great draw. 

 

---------------------------

 

Personally I never believed that playing for LIV would blunt their competitive itch. With the giant purses, they still had something big to play for. I will admit that I wondered whether the format and lack of top-end competition would be enough to keep them in top form, not from lack of desire or commitment, but just from lack of competitive play. But it appears that Brooks, Reed, and Bryson have answered that. 

[widow-maker]

10 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

So once again i like that the majors really just called the golf and stayed out of all the rival tours nonsense. They mentioned LIV right at the end when Koepka was on the 18th green but overall it was very much just business as usual.

 

I don't know how long both leagues will be around, and i cringe a little bit at Norman thinking this is a victory for him (even Brooks pretty much downplayed it)....But it somewhat makes LIV a little more interesting. They have 6 guys (DJ, Reed, Brooks, Bryson, Cam, Phil) that have been basically first page of leaderboard of the first 2 majors, and others like Mito who were top 20 i believe

 

Now when you watch, it will feel less like has-beens and injured or old golfers. As much as i defended LIVs right to exist and some of the dudes there, it did have that kind of a feel at first when some of those guys were struggling. But Brooks is basically with Rahm now to me as top dude

I like the players that you listed.  I enjoy watching them play in the Majors.  I just won't watch LIV Golf because I don't like the format.  When they play in traditional events I'll gladly watch them. 

[NormanFan]

On 5/18/2023 at 5:41 PM, Golferpaul said:

PGAT WGC events: 64 players and guaranteed money.

LIV events:  48 players with guaranteed money

 

Not much different.

 

Except those WGC events happened like three times a year.  LIV is running what, like 14 events a year?  Plus, I'd argue that the 16 player difference is big, especially when you consider the quality top to bottom of those WGC events versus what LIV has, which are very stratified in terms of ability.

[HomaComa]

7 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Billy Walters knows things others don't. 

I’m so excited for his book

[HomaComa]

6 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

People said the same thing about Jose Conseco... Everyone hated Jose, especially since he blew the whistle for self-gain, but in the end, he was right. Love him or hate him, Jose changed MLB forever.

 

To question Phil's credibility, given his three decades of interaction with the PGAT, seems premature and likely short-sighted. 

Thing is no one on LIV has backed him up. Phil never took up a leadership role on the tour for over 3 decades. 

[King_Slender]

Have been seeing continued discussion of gettin OWGR points for LIV golfers, but I think that's the wrong approach.

 

Other than arbitrarily being the #1 golfer based on OWGR, OWGR is really only important as a qualifying metric for majors.  That seems to be the crux of the LIV argument - we need OWGR points for our players to qualify for majors.  But what they should be doing is lobbying the majors to qualify players based on how they play in LIV.

 

For example, the US Open qualifies using 24 criteria, including the previous season Korn Ferry tour leader, the Asian tour leader, several Euro qualifications etc.

 

Considering everyone can agree that LIV has some of the best players, it wouldn't be unreasonable for majors to say they are taking the Top 5-10 LIV players based on their LIV rankings.  Some will likely have qualified otherwise, but it's a reasonable middle ground.

[2bGood]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:47 AM, fowlerscousin said:

This win for brooks is huge for liv. It says a lot if you win a liv event with brooks in the field.

 

Brooks, had a pattern of not caring or playing well in regular events and mainly just bringing his 'A' game to majors. Beating him at an event he does not care about is not that special. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by 2bGood

[munichop]

7 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Which reasons align with why you personally believe this?

 

I tend to side more with Faxon and that the Ryder Cup is not wholly the property of the PGAT and DPWT (and by extension also the PGAT again).  The PGA of America is the custodian of the Ryder Cup process in the US and a 60/20/20 split between the DWPT and PGA of GBI and PGA of Europe per wikipedia.  It would seem a decision to exclude LIV players based upon their professional tour allegiance would not be consistent when the PGA of America allowed them to play in the PGA Championship and when I am assuming an American born player playing exclusively on the DPWT/Euro in the past would have been eligible as well.  To the best of my knowledge the American professional golfers on LIV are still PGA of A members.  When I searched the PGA of A member directory just now the LIV guys are there.

This week and the one in April at the Masters underscores how little significance the PGA Tour has when it comes to golf's biggest events. They don't control ANY of the majors and regardless of what BC thinks they don't control the Ryder Cup.  When it comes down to it they find themselves in the same boat they put the European Tour in when they poached all of their top players with money a generation ago.  Now nobody thinks twice about the fact the top European players all have homes in America and play the majority of their golf here.  I remember when those guys were not allowed here because they weren't American.  Now the PGA Tour's biggest player advocate is a European.  Strange days indeed.

[HomaComa]

7 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Yes, Faxon nailed it.

 

Brandel cannot handle anyone who disagrees with him.  His usual environment is a one-way conversation where there is nobody present to refute his statements or a conversation with people that agree with him.  I'm shocked that they let somebody appear on the show that does not agree with him.

 

I think the SA objections are highly hypocritical.

• Saudi Arabia is America's No. 1 weapons customer.
• AT&T is a big PGAT sponsor and does business with SA.
• Almost every big company in the world does business with SA US Companies Doing Business in KSA (the-saudi.net)
• So why the hypocrisy?  Why boycott LIV but not Coca Cola, Pepsi, IBM, etc?  

 

I'm not a LIV fan because I think it's a mediocre product but Brooks 100% deserves to be on the Ryder Cup team. He'll probably make it on points and it'll be downright stupid to leave him off the the team