Hank Haney says if you can't hit the long ball the game has passed you by

[Old Tom Morris]

2 hours ago, JD3 said:

Well you have a lot of people to this day reciting post after post where they say stuff like "there'll always be a place for the guy with the wedge game who can putt". 

There is occasionally an event on off weeks with weaker fields on a rinky dink golf course where  someone can win.  But these opportunities seem to be becoming rarer.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

I think a relevant question is(and I am asking a question not making a judgment as I don't know the answer) is how long any of these guys were in relation to their peers? How they compare to the distances of todays pros is meaningless to me its judging how they stacked up against their competition.

 

Good question,

 

Took a quick look. In the early 80s

 

The distance leaders were 275-280

 

 

Faldo, 256

Trevino, 255

Ray Floyd, 255

Miller, 259

 

Considering the reduced number from today’s, you have a much larger percentage difference when taking about a 20 yard gap.

 

Gary Player won the masters in 1978. In 1981 (the soonest year the PGA Tour site has his average distance) he averaged 

 

246 yards off the tee. 

[gvogel]

The game has passed me by.  🤭

[dropkicked]

 

[Sean2]

Hank Haney says a lot of things.

[Fairway14]

2 hours ago, Bad9 said:

I think a relevant question is(and I am asking a question not making a judgment as I don't know the answer) is how long any of these guys were in relation to their peers? How they compare to the distances of todays pros is meaningless to me its judging how they stacked up against their competition.

 

Among Tour players there has never been an especially significant difference in tee ball distance and, or, club selection. For example, John Mahaffey was the shortest of his era; during the 1970's and 80's he averaged 235 yards off the tee when the "average" Tour pro distance was 255. Mahaffey had a great career including a Major among his 10 victories.

These days , as has always been true, there is little difference in Tour player distances and, or, their club selection.

The reason players today hit it longer than they did 30 years ago is the improvement which have been made to their equipment, the clubs and balls.

 

[Shilgy]

39 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Among Tour players there has never been an especially significant difference in tee ball distance and, or, club selection. For example, John Mahaffey was the shortest of his era; during the 1970's and 80's he averaged 235 yards off the tee when the "average" Tour pro distance was 255. Mahaffey had a great career including a Major among his 10 victories.

These days , as has always been true, there is little difference in Tour player distances and, or, their club selection.

The reason players today hit it longer than they did 30 years ago is the improvement which have been made to their equipment, the clubs and balls.

 

You do know we can fact check these stats, right? Let’s not be making stuff up to make a point. In 1980 Mahaffey averaged 249.5 and in ‘81 he was at 252.9.  Not long but not bunting it around. And let’s remember these numbers are not like the amateur idea of average. These are not as far as Mahaffey could hit it it was an average. And based on what I have read here the guys of that era only used 80% on average so he could hit it about 312 whenever he wanted! 🤭

[Ironman_32]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Good question,

 

Took a quick look. In the early 80s

 

The distance leaders were 275-280

 

 

Faldo, 256

Trevino, 255

Ray Floyd, 255

Miller, 259

 

Considering the reduced number from today’s, you have a much larger percentage difference when taking about a 20 yard gap.

 

Gary Player won the masters in 1978. In 1981 (the soonest year the PGA Tour site has his average distance) he averaged 

 

246 yards off the tee. 

I was thinking the same thing, pure numbers, if the "short" guys on tour are still ~20yds shorter, its all relative. 

 

Its a pretty obvious statement by Hank. The real question is, is there anyone in America who plays a shorter track, hits it 240 max, but is a +6 handicap on that track? Everyone in theory on tour or tour level would prob shoot lower if they were longer. 

 

In some ways I feel the comparison is football players now to back when guys had leather helmets and it looked like rugby. 

[tgoodspe1991]

Anyone who thinks Haney is wrong is probably someone who doesn't hit it very far to begin with. I'm sorry, but if you're a short hitter, you're at a tremendous disadvantage. That's a fact. It's been studied at length and it's an obvious statement when you write it out, but the closer you are to the hole, statistically, the less strokes it will take you to get up and down.

 

Also, people need to stop saying Haney ruined Tiger's swing. Go look up the numbers. Tiger had nearly an equal Major win percentage and a significantly higher non-Major win percentage under the Haney swing. Do you honestly think the greatest player in the world would've spent 6+ years of his career with a single swing coach if it wasn't working?!

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, Ironman_32 said:

Everyone in theory on tour or tour level would prob shoot lower if they were longer. 

 

 

 

Remember that for most of the game's existence trying to hit the ball longer had negative consequences. Specifically, good tempo and rhythm may be compromised. For the Tour skill level player the forgiveness built into current clubs and balls has somewhat diminished the need for exceptionally good tempo and rhythm, but still most Tour players don't want to harm their iron and wedge game by grooving a long drive swing.

The bottom line is that distance is only one facet of shooting low scores.

[chipa]

I think as soon as the courses start changing out there rough for a hardier, lusher grass then things will get back to normal. 😉

[Ironman_32]

5 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Remember that for most of the game's existence trying to hit the ball longer had negative consequences. Specifically, good tempo and rhythm may be compromised. For the Tour skill level player the forgiveness built into current clubs and balls has somewhat diminished the need for exceptionally good tempo and rhythm, but still most Tour players don't want to harm their iron and wedge game by grooving a long drive swing.

The bottom line is that distance is only one facet of shooting low scores.

I mean more, take Kisner, if he could pick up his drive and throw it ahead, then his his 2nd shot, he'd prob shoot lower. To actually hit his drive farther, he would prob have to make swing adjustments that may or may not work out. First one is my "theory" yours is more actual practical/real world. 

 

Im really saying, and good player, if you put them close to the hole, do they shoot worse?

[PowderedToastMan]

18 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Haney has probably done more damage to the game of golf than any other person . For example, he wrecked Tiger's swing, he told his Sirius Radio viewers to putt from 30 yards off the green, he rambles on nonsensically about how "distance is everything" etc...

Hank wrecked Tiger’s swing? Legitimate question, are you insane? The only better golf in history played than 2005-2009 was arguably Tiger 1999-2001. 

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, PowderedToastMan said:

Hank wrecked Tiger’s swing? Legitimate question, are you insane? The only better golf in history played than 2005-2009 was arguably Tiger 1999-2001. 

 

Remember that from about 1985 to 2005 Tiger had dominated at each level where he competed. That is 20 years of learning-developing-practicing an incredible swing that produced amazing ball striking, short game, putting etc... which resulted in consistently low scores and tournament wins galore. Not even a charlatan like Hank Haney could overnight wreck Tiger's accomplishments. Haney's work was a slow , methodical decimation of the solid foundation Tiger had built during the previous 20 years.

[Bad9]

 

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Good question,

 

Took a quick look. In the early 80s

 

The distance leaders were 275-280

 

 

Faldo, 256

Trevino, 255

Ray Floyd, 255

Miller, 259

 

Considering the reduced number from today’s, you have a much larger percentage difference when taking about a 20 yard gap.

 

Gary Player won the masters in 1978. In 1981 (the soonest year the PGA Tour site has his average distance) he averaged 

 

246 yards off the tee. 

 Interesting numbers. Would a guy averaging 220yds off the tee been competitive on tour at that time?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Bad9

[PowderedToastMan]

3 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Remember that from about 1985 to 2005 Tiger had dominated at each level where he competed. That is 20 years of learning-developing-practicing an incredible swing that produced amazing ball striking, short game, putting etc... which resulted in consistently low scores and tournament wins galore. Not even a charlatan like Hank Haney could overnight wreck Tiger's accomplishments. Haney's work was a slow , methodical decimation of the solid foundation Tiger had built during the previous 20 years.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. What you just wrote is complete nonsense and has no basis in fact. Hank essentially weakened Tiger’s grip, got the shaft a bit more laid off, and quickened Tiger’s tempo.  He didn’t touch Tiger’s short game. 
 

Tiger had a 7 win streak, a couple 6 win streaks, 6 majors, 30+ wins under Haney. A healthy Tiger under Foley was worse in every way, and Foley changed every aspect of Tiger. Tiger has dropped everything Foley taught him except minimizing his shift off the ball on the backswing. Tiger is back to essentially his Hank Haney swing. That’s no coincidence. 

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, PowderedToastMan said:

. A healthy Tiger under Foley was worse in every way

 

You are correct about Foley, he was terrible for Tiger. Foley was called in to fix the mess made by Haney. When Foley failed Chris Como made things worse. Haney, Foley, Como fake it while Butch Harmon is the real deal.

Had he stuck with Butch Harmon my guess is that Tiger would now have 20 Major victories or more. Harmon truly understands the game and the swing. 

[Golfnutgalen]

12 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

 

 Interesting numbers. Would a guy averaging 220yds off the tee been competitive on tour at that time?

Probably not, the shortest on the tour in 1981 was still Rik Massengale's 242.3 yards while the average distance was 259.3 and Dan Pohl lead at 280.1.

 

Those figures are very close in terms of percentages to what we have today. The average last year (because it's a full season worth of stats) was 296.4 and equivalent percentages above and below that would be 320.2 and 277. Bryson lead at 322.1 and Andrew Putman was last at 277.9.

[caniac6]

29 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Remember that from about 1985 to 2005 Tiger had dominated at each level where he competed. That is 20 years of learning-developing-practicing an incredible swing that produced amazing ball striking, short game, putting etc... which resulted in consistently low scores and tournament wins galore. Not even a charlatan like Hank Haney could overnight wreck Tiger's accomplishments. Haney's work was a slow , methodical decimation of the solid foundation Tiger had built during the previous 20 years.

Tiger won 6 out of 16 starts in Hank's last year with him. A bunch of guys would love that kind of methodical decimation. And, If I remember correctly, Hank left Tiger after the scandal. Tiger did not fire Hank.

[Bad9]

14 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

Probably not, the shortest on the tour in 1981 was still Rik Massengale's 242.3 yards while the average distance was 259.3 and Dan Pohl lead at 280.1.

 

Those figures are very close in terms of percentages to what we have today. The average last year (because it's a full season worth of stats) was 296.4 and equivalent percentages above and below that would be 320.2 and 277. Bryson lead at 322.1 and Andrew Putman was last at 277.9.

Do you have any idea of how Pohl and Massengale's overall tour ranking would be? I remember Pohl's name but not Massangale at all and I don't think Pohl was a star in any way.

[llewol007]

Evolution of the game. That is all it is. Most players on tour hit it far enough to compete. Who cares about the "Unicorns" that are able to hit it into the 400 yard range. Back it up with enough wins and then people will worry. Like I said before, Tiger made players approach the game differently including working on their overall strength and conditioning. Now you see players have coaches for every aspect of their game. Does it guarantee anything. Nope because the pilot has to have the mind just as dialed in. Distance is already on tour. 

[bscinstnct]

41 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

If we go back in time to when 

 Interesting numbers. Would a guy averaging 220yds off the tee been competitive on tour at that time?

28 minutes ago, Golfnutgalen said:

Probably not, the shortest on the tour in 1981 was still Rik Massengale's 242.3 yards while the average distance was 259.3 and Dan Pohl lead at 280.1.

 

Those figures are very close in terms of percentages to what we have today. The average last year (because it's a full season worth of stats) was 296.4 and equivalent percentages above and below that would be 320.2 and 277. Bryson lead at 322.1 and Andrew Putman was last at 277.9.

 

I agree that the percentage difference between the leaders of the day and the HoF golfers I listed is about the same as the difference today between the leaders and the average distance.

 

The question is, we see that in the past, a guy with average distance can be a top, top performer. 
 

Nick Faldo won 3 Masters probably laying up on 13 as often as he went for it. Very different set of skills emphasized and required today to win at Augusta 3 times. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by bscinstnct

[Golfnutgalen]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

Do you have any idea of how Pohl and Massengale's overall tour ranking would be? I remember Pohl's name but not Massangale at all and I don't think Pohl was a star in any way.

Massengale was actually pretty good and I didn't know his name either. He won 3 times from 1975 to 1977 and Dan Pohl won twice both in 1986. Neither won a major yet Dan had a lot more high finishes in those majors, 7 top 10s including a 2nd and two 3rd place finishes. Rik had 1 top 10 which was a 3rd place finish in 1977. Apparently he retired from the tour due to a back injury in 1983 around age 36.

[oikos1]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You do know we can fact check these stats, right? Let’s not be making stuff up to make a point. In 1980 Mahaffey averaged 249.5 and in ‘81 he was at 252.9.  Not long but not bunting it around. And let’s remember these numbers are not like the amateur idea of average. These are not as far as Mahaffey could hit it it was an average. And based on what I have read here the guys of that era only used 80% on average so he could hit it about 312 whenever he wanted! 🤭

 

Lol.  I heard those guys also only swung to 80% and gave up yardage off the tee to protect classic golf courses and the traditions of the game.

[Golfnutgalen]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I agree that the percentage difference between the leaders of the day and the HoF golfers I listed is about the same as the difference today between the leaders and the average distance.

 

The question is, we see that in the past, a guy with average distance can be a top, top performer. 
 

Nick Faldo won 3 Masters probably laying up on 13 as often as he went for it. Very different set of skills emphasized and required today to win at Augusta 3 times. 

 

Zach Johnson is probably the closest. Obviously not in the same ballpark, but 2 majors 12 wins total is nothing to sniff at. Oh and Jim Furyk with 17 wins including a major. Both players were shorter than Nick Faldo was compared to the rest of the field as far as I can tell.

[bscinstnct]

1 minute ago, Golfnutgalen said:

 

Zach Johnson is probably the closest. Obviously not in the same ballpark, but 2 majors 12 wins total is nothing to sniff at. Oh and Jim Furyk with 17 wins including a major. Both players were shorter than Nick Faldo was compared to the rest of the field as far as I can tell.

 

The game is just different.

 

Wedges into par 5s were rare back then. Hitting fairways was a prerequisite for a top pro. Guys didn’t carry 4 wedges. They carried 1 and 2 irons for extra precision off the tee. 
 

Now, as Haney said, you kill the ball as far as you can.

 

As long as you can find it, your good to go.

 

 

[Fairway14]

5 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Now, as Haney said, you kill the ball as far as you can.

 

As long as you can find it, your good to go.

 

 

 

If 100 Tour current pros were asked if that were true I guess 5 of them would agree and the other 95 would say they want to play from the fairway.

[physasst]

Wasn't it Nicklaus that said years ago that the first thing you needed to do was to learn to hit as far as you could. Accuracy came later.

 

Doesn't sound that different than what is happening now.

 

M

[physasst]

5 minutes ago, physasst said:

Wasn't it Nicklaus that said years ago that the first thing you needed to do was to learn to hit as far as you could. Accuracy came later.

 

Doesn't sound that different than what is happening now.

 

M

 

BTW, I could be wrong on that...but I think I remember reading that somewhere back in the 80's. 

 

M

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The game is just different.

 

Wedges into par 5s were rare back then. Hitting fairways was a prerequisite for a top pro. Guys didn’t carry 4 wedges. They carried 1 and 2 irons for extra precision off the tee. 
 

Now, as Haney said, you kill the ball as far as you can.

 

As long as you can find it, your good to go.

 

 

I don’t remember...how old are you? Wedges into par 5’s were rare? Lol. Where do you get that? Reaching in two shots may have been slightly more rare than today but part of that was we were taught the percentage play was to lay up to our favorite wedge distance. But it was rare to have more than wedge for a third shot. Not rare to have a wedge.