What irons have heavy head weights?

[BirdieBob]

Just now, Fairway14 said:

 

Swing weight is not a measure of "feel of the club head" . SW is a measure of balance. That is , the balance of the club when swung..

"Feel of the club head" is a term usually use to describe impact sound.

 

Yes, with a 50g grip.

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, BirdieBob said:

Yes, with a 50g grip.

 

Again, a scale could be "calibrated with a 50 gram grip" , or the scale could be calibrated with a 30 gram grip or a 70 gram grip. What matters is that a putter, wedge, iron, driver etc... measuring D2 Swing weight has a very different balance when swung than does a club measuring D5 swing weight.

30 years ago club repair shops staffed by lazy workers  started telling customers "grip weight fools the swing weight scale". The repair guys did not want to do the work to manage swing weight, so they started coming up with nonsense excuses about how "swing weight does not matter"  or "one swing weight point is the equivalent of the weight of a dollar bill" or "it's easy to fool the swing weight scale". Over the years lots of consumers have bought the nonsense rhetoric trotted out by lazy club repair workers, and that is where we are today.

The bottom line is that if a player wants to improve his game but  does not notice a balance difference when swinging a D2 club versus a D5 club, then he should probably work on improving swing technique.

[ChipNRun]

4 hours ago, farris207 said:

Do they just pull heads that came out being heavier, or do they have a way to actually add extra weight to the head?

I know the what, from talking to OEM reps and my local pro, but I don't know the how. Help, anyone?

[Fairway14]

15 hours ago, farris207 said:

Through quite a bit of experimenting and some time on GC Quad I've found that I swing much better with heavier clubs. It eliminates my over the top, helps tempo, and sequencing. I know I can up the head weight/swing weight by adding brass tips to shafts, but this seems like a waste of what could be useful weight. Are there any brands out there that are known to be on the heavier end? I know Ping driver heads are some of the heaviest on the market. Is there anything like this for irons? I would prefer a forged head. My last three sets have been AP2s. 

 

Ping is the company most committed to serving custom orders by offering a range of head weight options. Specifically, the company's are designed with interchangeable weight screws. In other words, by using different weight screws Ping can increase an iron's head weight by about 6 grams from its standard head weight.

From what I've read you've done just about all you can do to create heavier clubs for yourself, including plus .5" length, 130 gram shafts, mid-size grips etc.... If you are determined to get heavier than what you have now then adding another .5" of length will definitely make the clubs play significantly heavier for you.

 

[Htk084]

This has been super helpful to me as well, so Ping have the heaviest woods and vokey heaviest wedges?

[Nard_S]

I prefer heavy myself and I would recommend you dive deeper into Blue Prints. They can hook those up to be thumpers. Heavier toe & screw and more goo in the heel will do it and they are not crazy hard to hit. 

 

Heavy oldies? Titleist 681 and T model. They're plenty heavy.

[Fairway14]

Any player wanting an extra heavy driver head pick up a TM R7 with the interchangeable screw weights. Install the heaviest screws and you could have the heaviest driver ever made.

For irons and wedges Tour pros wanting heavier heads lay on the lead tape. I am not sure why amateur players seem to avoid lead tape.

[cardoustie]

3 hours ago, Nard_S said:

I prefer heavy myself and I would recommend you dive deeper into Blue Prints. They can hook those up to be thumpers. Heavier toe & screw and more goo in the heel will do it and they are not crazy hard to hit. 

 

Heavy oldies? Titleist 681 and T model. They're plenty heavy.

Yup, Ping built my blueprints d7 to e0 ... awesome irons, very long 

Edited November 24, 2020 by cardoustie

[Htk084]

3 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Yup, Ping built my blueprints d7 to e0 ... awesome irons, very long 

can Ping do that for any of their irons?

[MPAndreassi]

16 hours ago, farris207 said:

 

Before I had a swing weight scale I did a bunch of messing around with lead tape. I then put those clubs on a scale and found D5-D7 to be a good range. I've built a D7 7 iron with a shaft tip and hit it wonderfully. I recently changed over to the Golf Pride Tour Velvet +4 Midsize (65.5g) and this has thrown a wrench into things due to it's weight. Due to this I may be switching to a normal Tou Velvet (58 core is 51.5 or a midsize is 53g) and adding buildup tape. Not sure how much weight this will save over the +4 grip though. 

 

Playing Project X 7.0 shafts right now so already using a 130g shaft.  

 

For reference I was fit into my Driver at D9. I picked up 15 yards and saw my deliver change from 2.5 out to in into 1.5 in to out.

I ran into this issue also. Put on Midsize MCC Plus 4 and fell in love with it. Needed to pull everything apart and put new tip weights in. 

[Jifmoli]

How about using graphite shafts? I like them because it makes me feel the club head better.

 

Actually my irons were marketed around them having heavier heads: Srixon Z355. Nice clubs but not forged. Feel nice though. May be too GI for you..

 

[Stuart_G]

18 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Swing weight is not a measure of "feel of the club head" . SW is a measure of balance. That is , the balance of the club when swung..

"Feel of the club head" is a term usually use to describe impact sound.

 

 

No, the swing weight concept is not and never was about matching the balance of a club.  Its a very common misconception but it's not accurate at all.   The swing weight scale most certainly was a tool designed to manage only head weight (feel) changes in the context of small length changes.  That's it, nothing more.  I  It was developed at a time when things like grip weight and shaft weight never changed.  The only thing the builder did have control over was length and head weight.  

 

It was an attempt to simplify the process of the builders doing MOI calculations to more easily determine the needed head weight at a time before it was feasible to easily measure MOI directly.  But balance could be measured so they tested different fulcrum points until they found some (14" and 12") that resulted in reasonable results that matched the head weight feel.    But that also means that the choice of the fulcrum point does not take into consideration how the heft or head weight feel changes when the grip weight changes.  That's why the swing weight scale is a useless when it comes to grip weight changes.  It has nothing to do with calibration, it's an inherent limitation of the swing weight concept. 

 

There are several sources you can search for if you really want to understand the history of the swing weight scale and concept.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Fairway14]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

 

There are several sources you can search for if you really want to understand the history of the swing weight scale and concept.

 

 

 

I don't have an interest to learn about the history of the swing weight scale and, or, its original design concept.

I do know that the scale is a useful tool for measuring the balance of a club when swung. Again, when swinging a putter, wedge, iron, driver etc...

most any good player will know within a swing or two if the swing weight  has changed, for example from D2 to to D5. It does not matter if the change came about from an alteration to shaft length, head weight, grip weight etc... The highly skilled player will notice this balance change when swinging the club, and the swing weight scale verifies same.

Remember, skilled players like swing weight because it is a consistently reliable measure for defining the balance of a club. Incompetent  club builders don't like the swing weight measure because targeting a particular swing weight is extra work for them to do. Sadly, lazy club builders have adopted the habit of telling customers nonsense rhetoric such as "swing weight does not matter" or "grip weight fools the swing weight scale" or "a swing weight point is the equivalent of a dollar bill, can you feel the weight of a dollar bill?" etc...

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I don't have an interest to learn about the history of the swing weight scale and, or, its original design concept.

 

That's too bad.   Because without that understanding, you have no basis to stand on when trying to correct those that do understand it and know how to use it the way it was intended to be used.    Or to simplify the point,  If you want to use a screw driver as a chisel, go ahead and be my guest.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's still a screwdriver and other people here in the forum actually want to understand how to use a screw driver the way it was intended.

 

 

Quote

I do know that the scale is a useful tool for measuring the balance of a club when swung. Again, when swinging a putter, wedge, iron, driver etc...

most any good player will know within a swing or two if the swing weight  has changed, for example from D2 to to D5. It does not matter if the change came about from an alteration to shaft length, head weight, grip weight etc... The highly skilled player will notice this balance change when swinging the club, and the swing weight scale verifies same.

 

There is one major flaw in your reasoning.  The balance of the club (as you call it) is a static property not a dynamic property and only plays a very minor role in the actual dynamics of the swing.  The much more important dynamic properties are the MOI of the club and total weight.  And it's the MOI that the swing weight scale was always intended to help match.  

 

Now the first moment might have a small influence in feel for some, but that's not the same as the balance point the way the swing weight scale reports it since it's a combination of both the balance point and the total weight.

 

 

Quote

Remember, skilled players like swing weight because it is a consistently reliable measure for defining the balance of a club. Incompetent  club builders don't like the swing weight measure because targeting a particular swing weight is extra work for them to do. Sadly, lazy club builders have adopted the habit of telling customers nonsense rhetoric such as "swing weight does not matter" or "grip weight fools the swing weight scale" or "a swing weight point is the equivalent of a dollar bill, can you feel the weight of a dollar bill?" etc...

 

There are certainly lazy builders who don't pay attention to it.  But much more rhetoric comes from the experiences of those who try to (mis)use the scale as a balance tool and dismiss it as a useful tool when the feel results do not match what the swing weight scale tells them.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Stuart_G

[cardoustie]

I have to agree with Fred here

 

I had defective grips once from Ping.  The replacements were heavier and at the time they could not do a rebuild of the irons and hit my d5 target ....  so they did a whole new set

 

Me personally, if I tossed on a large grip and the head felt lighter I would suck with that club (I've done this)

 

I need to feel the head's heaviness.  Call it swingweight or whatever but I need the perception of more weight clubside

[Stuart_G]

17 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

I have to agree with Fred here

 

I had defective grips once from Ping.  The replacements were heavier and at the time they could not do a rebuild of the irons and hit my d5 target ....  so they did a whole new set

 

Me personally, if I tossed on a large grip and the head felt lighter I would suck with that club (I've done this)

 

I need to feel the head's heaviness.  Call it swingweight or whatever but I need the perception of more weight clubside

 

People frequently misunderstand the comments around the 'grip fooling' the swing weight scale or swing weight should always be based on a 50 gm grip.   And some of those can be just as dangerous as any other types of misconceptions about the swing weight scale.

 

1) It's NOT meant as a statement that grip weight doesn't matter in the feel of the club.   That's crazy, just the fact that it changes the static weight should make it obvious that it usually will change the feel of the club.

 

2) It's also not saying that if a certain head weight (maybe D2) is a good fit with a 50 gm grip and then you change to a heavier grip that you should not have to change the head weight.   There are many cases where no adjustment to the head will be needed in that case and it's recommended to test it that way first - but there are always exceptions and some people will need to change the head weight after a grip weight change.

 

The main point is that the swing weight scale is not a very good or reliable tool to tell you what you will need to do when you change the grip weight.  The same goes for a shaft weight change.   Some people might get lucky and have it work out for them but most will not.  The relationship between a good fit for shaft weight (or really total static weight) and a good fit for head weight (or MOI) is a complex one and can be very different for different swings and mechanics.   The only reliable way to figure out what you need for head weight is to go to the range and find out dynamically.

 

Then (and only then) can you use the swing weight scale to try and reproduce that feel across the other clubs in the set (with the same new shaft weight and grip weight).

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Stuart_G

[TheDeanAbides]

Can you even call yourself a player if you don't have lead tape slapped all over the back of your irons? 😁

[driveandputtmachine]

I own a swingweight scale.  I was taught by a former top 100 fitter in the US.  Does the SW scale have things it is good for?  Yes.  Is it taking a Titleist CB 5iron with a DG S300 and a Golf Pride velvet grip and reading D2 and then saying your new Srixon irons with Mid sized Winn grips and graphite shafts also needs to be D2?  Of course it is not for that.  Thinking it is is a classic case of mis understanding why the swing weight scals was created all those years ago when MOI measurements were not easily findable, or replicateable.

 

I learned where at the time what my static weight progressions I was best with across my set and a headweight that worked best for me all those years ago.  I am no longer playing the same shaft (I don't quite need the Brunswick Rifle 7.0 iron shafts anymore) but applying that allows me to determine a starting point for an iron with a new shaft and get it where I want it.

 

My irons Swing weights when I played in a few US Am's state am's and was a +3.2 would shock you in the fact that I was not playing D2 irons and D3 wedges or some such nonsense.  My irons ranged from D2 to D6 and my wedges were in the D8 ranges.  My driver was a D6 and my 3 wood was a D9 or something.  To be honest I have been playing the same shafts in different iron heads for the last 10 years or so, as I managed to get a set of Recoils from a buddy on tour.  I have no idea what my swing weights are for any club other than my 7 iron, which is where I start all my builds.

[vtpachyderm]

This is an interesting topic to follow and the information is quite fascinating. I've always been curious as to why you would want to go for heavier heads (besides the obvious that you're just plain strong). I play graphite shafts that weigh about 68g 71g and I can really 'feel' where the head is during the swing so much so that I almost want to manipulate my hands/wrists based on what I feel. At the same time, the lightweight shaft helps me up my swing speed so I can not only get distance, but also enough spin on the ball so have been taking lessons and practicing on getting some consistency on my swing, and it's been improving through the course of the season. I play graphite due to a permanent injury to my left arm and elbow, and the arm appreciates the forgiving nature of graphite, and the heads are 2016 Cobra Forged Tecs with the UST Recoil F3 shafts fitted with Pure Midsize grips. My 7 iron is my 150-160mm (165 - 175yd) club.

 

When the offseason hit, I managed to pick up a set of Callaway Apex CF16's with a TrueTemper XP95 shafts to try a slightly heavier and stiffer shaft to see if I can improve my consistency, and wow, the difference is night and day in the way the club swings. The heads are pretty similar both in weight and loft, and I've got the same grips on it. The sensation of swinging what feels like one consistently weighted club is quite weird for me, as I feel like I'm now trusting my swing to give me a proper impact. I've lost about 5 yds of carry, and a little bit of spin due to a slower swing speed, but the consistency of my shots has improved. However, on the indoor mats, the impact is brutal on my arm.

 

So, now I'm contemplating going to heavier graphite shafts to try to mimic the same swing feel, while keeping the forgiveness of graphite on my arm. I really am liking the feeling of less separation between the head and shaft/grip under a dynamic motion which is the opposite of the threads topic (if I've understood this correctly) so what are the benefits of heavier heads compared to the rest of the club? In a general cliff notes sense, so at least I know what to expect before I try futzing with lead tape.

 

TIA.

Edited November 24, 2020 by vtpachyderm
Weight of shaft corrected.

[bird_4_3]

Srixon 785s have heads.  They swing heavy to me, no matter what the swingweight says.  

[farris207]

So much good information in this thread now. Thanks to everyone! I'll have to look more into Ping irons. I had a set of Ping I25 a while back and really liked them. I like the look of the Ping G425 irons except for the offset. If they pushed that out I would be all over it.

 

To comment on the fitting discussion.. I have found that total weight of the club has been very important for me as well. I've played 120g shafts in the past, and it just didn't work as well. The heavy total weight make my swing feel like it takes longer, which makes it easier for me to sequence. I've used swing weight more as a guiding tool to create consistency through the set vs a way to determine the set makeup. I've built clubs without the scale and messed with lead tape while hitting balls. After I find what feels right and I hit well it will get put on the scale to make the rest of the set match. I am absolutely just a guy that likes to tinker with clubs with no formal education in the area. If anyone has a better method please do share.

I will say that after I changed to heavier grips I did notice a change in how the club swings. I'll be pulling my irons back apart to increase brass weights, or finding a new way to get my grip feel with a lighter method.

Edited November 24, 2020 by farris207

[Uncut]

My friends always ask to try my Miura TC-201s (modus 120) and without fail they always say something like "holy hell, these are heavy!" I then tell them they are "man clubs". I don't know if they are truly heavier or not because I haven't exactly weighed them...but my buddies clubs feel like toys compared to mine. 

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, vtpachyderm said:

So, now I'm contemplating going to heavier graphite shafts to try to mimic the same swing feel, while keeping the forgiveness of graphite on my arm. I really am liking the feeling of less separation between the head and shaft/grip under a dynamic motion which is the opposite of the threads topic (if I've understood this correctly) so what are the benefits of heavier heads compared to the rest of the club? In a general cliff notes sense, so at least I know what to expect before I try futzing with lead tape.

 

TIA.

 

The generalizations really aren't all that useful as it is very subjective to how the player responds to the change in feel.   IMO, you're actually better off doing some testing (lead tape on the range) with no expectations and an open mind.

 

However, I will say that static (shaft) weight tends to have a bigger effect on the back swing and transition while the head weight (MOI) tends to have a higher chance of influencing the transition through to the release.  But there are plenty of exceptions to those guidelines as well.   But it means for head weight adjustments, pay attention to changes in the delivery of the club.   Face impact location, release timing, club path and face-to-path, dynamic loft delivered, AoA, etc...

 

And because both can have effect the transition, IMO weight fitting (both static weight and head weight) is really about trying to get the club to match and work with the players natural (or learned) sense of rhythm and timing.  That's really the key to getting the most consistent results out of one's swing.

 

[vtpachyderm]

12 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The generalizations really aren't all that useful as it is very subjective to how the player responds to the change in feel.   IMO, you're actually better off doing some testing (lead tape on the range) with no expectations and an open mind.

 

However, I will say that static (shaft) weight tends to have a bigger effect on the back swing and transition while the head weight (MOI) tends to have a higher chance of influencing the transition through to the release.  But there are plenty of exceptions to those guidelines as well.   But it means for head weight adjustments, pay attention to changes in the delivery of the club.   Face impact location, release timing, club path and face-to-path, dynamic loft delivered, AoA, etc...

 

And because both can have effect the transition, IMO weight fitting (both static weight and head weight) is really about trying to get the club to match and work with the players natural (or learned) sense of rhythm and timing.  That's really the key to getting the most consistent results out of one's swing.

 

Wow - very close to going down a dangerous rabbit hole 😂. Thanks for the detailed response - it really gets me thinking about my swing and equipment. I'm struggling with an OTT motion, and thinking of trying to teach (with lessons) myself out of it so what you say on adapting the club or adapting the swing is quite the dilemma. While I know it's a personal swing trait, but does heavier head weights promote dropping the club on the transition?

[Stuart_G]

16 minutes ago, vtpachyderm said:

Wow - very close to going down a dangerous rabbit hole 😂. Thanks for the detailed response - it really gets me thinking about my swing and equipment. I'm struggling with an OTT motion, and thinking of trying to teach (with lessons) myself out of it so what you say on adapting the club or adapting the swing is quite the dilemma. While I know it's a personal swing trait, but does heavier head weights promote dropping the club on the transition?

 

Weight can potentially effect lots of different aspects of the swing although I look at them as minor tweaks compared to full blown swing changes with an instructor.  However, the tough question is how permanent will those changes be as you continue to play with the changed weight?    Sometimes the weight is a factor because you are feeling a difference from what you are used to.  But the longer you play the club, the more you get used to it and it becomes the new 'norm'.   When that happens, sometimes the old habits can creep back into the swing.  

 

When it comes to weight, I prefer to primary focus on 1) how comfortable it feels to swing and 2) how consistent the results are (including face impact).    If you can get some other gains without any loss in consistency, then it couldn't really hurt but if you're trying to use weight at the expense of something else, I don't think it's worth it.

 

 

[ARL67]

From the component manufacturers:

 

Wishon iron heads feature an additional hosel weight port at the very bottom of the hosel.    This can accommodate up to an extra 9g tungsten slug.  And of course you can still use your typical tip weights as well.  This year I've built a set of Wishon 575 MMC and a set of the EQ1-NX single length.     The EQ1 Hybrids and FW  also feature additional weight ports on the underside of the club.  You ca add a  boat-load of weight to those heads if you like them super-heavy and/or super-short.

 

The Maltby KE4 S and Tour heads also have double & single weight port on the back of the heads to tailor weight and also heel vs toe balance.

 

I do my own club-building and familiar with my own specs.  Since I primarily use Mizuno heads and Steelfibers, I know from experience what target dry SW I would build my 7i.  I use my SW scale to extended my 7i specs to the other irons.   If I dabble with some other heads or shafts, I will build a test 9i and 6i, then fine tune with lead tape on the driving range.  Once satisfied, I will measure, then use those measurements to build the entire set.  The SW scale is a tool to allow me to achieve a consistent build of the rest of iron set. 

 

And as mentioned previously "D2" on its own is meaningless -> 2 sets of irons measuring to D2 could feel drastically different ( head, shaft, length, flex, balance, grip, etc )

Edited November 25, 2020 by ARL67

[Ri_Redneck]

I had and used a SW scale for years. Lost the weight in a move and just never replaced it. I typically build my irons by making a test club and fine weighting with lead tape while testing. Once I get the feel I want, I disassemble the club and weigh every component. I then weigh all of the components of the other clubs and do the math to have them match. After that, if anything doesn't feel just right, I still have some lead tape to fine tune. I have at least three sets that all feel great and have no lead tape on them at all. BTW, I had my MP5s checked for SW a while back, the 4i was D5 and they climbed up to D8 at the PW.

 

BT

[ivygynonc]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:30 PM, BirdieBob said:

PXG can add some heavy tungsten perimeter screw weights to their iron heads.  Ask to see what SW they can achieve for your length irons.

That coupled with heavier shafts should get you what you want.

 

You should experiment with lead tape first to determine just what weighting is preferrable, otherwise you will be guessing.

Great advice.  

 

I found that Miura baby blades are heavy for true blades.  Lead tape looks dang sick on baby blades too BTW...  

[TheDeanAbides]

If you want heavy go vintage. They knew how to build a blade back in the day, and all of the best modern blade designs are based on them anyway. Find a set and refurbish them like these I'm working on now...

[extrastiff]

On 11/23/2020 at 8:32 AM, cardoustie said:

 

Easiest thing is ...  to fall in love with lead tape

Bingo.