Is it acceptable to play slow if you are scratch?

[Pleasedwith3putts]

If anything, the opposite should be true. I'm never going to discourage anyone from taking up the game, so it's hard to fathom how it can take longer to hit 70 shots than someone takes to hit 100. Shouldn't be spending as much time looking for balls either, numerous pros have showed how a good score can be achieved in around 2 hours when out as a single at the front of a field.

[Imp]

On 7/20/2021 at 4:26 PM, Imp said:

Do you only start to read the green when it's your turn? Then you have 40 seconds from start of read to the time you hit the putt. 

You should start reading before it's your turn (if you can, of course) so it really shouldn't be 40 seconds *more* once it is your turn... you should have your shot pretty good to go by then. That's my biggest attribution to "you're taking too long"... watching someone gabbing on the green,  doing nothing, watching the rolls, and then only starts to do their thing once it's their turn. Shold be able to multi-task, line up while others are playing their shots, and watching their rolls. 

And, if you're going to take another 40 seconds for a 1 foot putt on a fairly green if you missed, we may have words something like "while we're young." You did all your looking before your putt, and it didn't change between shots. 

To drive this point home... something I learned of yesterday... (and where my head was at when writing this above with this player, and a couple others, in mind)

I play in a tourney group that play 2-3x a week in different courses through the area. Last week, at one of the courses we had one player that caused such a delay between the group in front, and the group he was playing in, that the organizer was told the group is never coming back by the course. Something like a 2 hole gap? (I didn't play that day). This player was also told to no longer play with the group (and it's been brewing for a while now, people didn't want to play with him, slow reading putts, "has a routine", etc...) 

 

He just took wayyyy too long doing aimpoint and reading putts. A minute+ for 1st putt for the most part. Then repeat for the missed putts. Well, came to a head due to a couple things... player was unwilling to change their routine, although many times asked. There was always a gap, a hole, couple holes that opened between his group and the group in front every time he played. Pointing it out to this player on the course while playing, "it's my routine". Also, never got the hint why he was last on the green while others were teeing off. He'd just do what he needed to do. 

 

So... yeah. Slow play has an effect on not only the player, but the foursome you're in, the course you're on as you are OBLIVIOUS that you are holding things up, and like us, the other players in the group as we go course to course. And believe me, word gets out "these guys? Don't. they're slow, here's what happened to us." 

 

When you figure for most, you spend more time on and around greens than getting to them. Put people on a clock on the greens. Period. Have to be stern about it. Because of this one player, we lost a good course to play on. 

 

--kC

Edited July 25, 2021 by Imp

[tboh]

Just played a 3 day medal tournament that includes all levels ... 3rd day is broken in to flights based on your 2-day aggregate ... I only bring this up to show the fields diversity

 

Just a few observations ...

 

- it's an amateur tournament play ready golf where possible & if I say I'm good w ready golf I'm good w ready golf ... it's not a penalty & if it's understood then there's no etiquette problem

- finish putting out ... You made a great lag to 18 inches (or less) take 15 secs & finish ... don't mark & go thru that unreal pre-putt routine again

- You don't have to mark your ball everytime you hit the green & others are chipping on ... don't make me wait a minute for you to walk to your ball & mark ... it's not in my line & I don't care (if I do I'll ask)

- Whole flag thing is driving me nuts right now ... some want it out, some want it in, in for downhill, out for come-backers ... good lord pick one

- Please please please agree to get to your ball (within reason) while your cart partner is going thru his routine ... i dont think theres a rule w you starting your routine early & if your 25 yards away so might as well get started ... it's no wonder some pairings in carts take 430 hrs

 

I have no idea how much time these things would actually save just my observations while playing w 6 different amateurs in medal play & really I'm just complaining bc it should never take that long to play

 

All of my playing partners were great & really played well ... it's just amazing how these little things have worked in to the game

[Greenie]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:23 PM, Ri_Redneck said:

This is exactly what I thought. Living in New England where weekend rounds are almost always 5 hrs. You have to learn to set your pace to match the pace of the day or expect to be frustrated from the start. When I play on an uncrowded course, It typically takes me about 3-3.5 hrs. When playing in crowded conditions, my routine doesn't really change, but I will sometimes add practice swings to keep the muscles loose (older guy). So I can see this being the situation in the OP's observations.

 

BT

I don't fully understand this. They were a hole to a hole1/2 behind us. If I took the same approach and allowed myself to be the same from the group ahead and the group ahead did the same thing and so on up to the group holding everything up wouldn't that seem to be a problem?

I have often thought when I am waiting on every shot that I would prefer to wait on the tee box unitl the group ahead finishes the complete hole then tee off and play the hole not waiting on every shot to play the hole. I would prefer all my waiting time to be in one spot and then play the whole hole without waiting.

I have seen groups doing this before and wanted to play this way myself but didn't think it was proper.

[Ri_Redneck]

34 minutes ago, Greenie said:

I don't fully understand this. They were a hole to a hole1/2 behind us. If I took the same approach and allowed myself to be the same from the group ahead and the group ahead did the same thing and so on up to the group holding everything up wouldn't that seem to be a problem?

I have often thought when I am waiting on every shot that I would prefer to wait on the tee box unitl the group ahead finishes the complete hole then tee off and play the hole not waiting on every shot to play the hole. I would prefer all my waiting time to be in one spot and then play the whole hole without waiting.

I have seen groups doing this before and wanted to play this way myself but didn't think it was proper.

As long as they were not holding up a group behind them though, all would be fine. I think we would all prefer to not have to wait. But the fact is we do. I figure he was making his best attempt to NOT have to wait, while still not be harassed about being too slow. 

 

I play as a single a lot and have learned to adjust my pace to keep wait time down. The only problem is if a group comes up behind me. But I can typically play pretty slow and still stay ahead of a foursome.

 

Playing at, what some would call, a slow pace is not bad in itself. It's only bad if you're holding up others.

 

BT

[Greenie]

12 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

As long as they were not holding up a group behind them though, all would be fine. I think we would all prefer to not have to wait. But the fact is we do. I figure he was making his best attempt to NOT have to wait, while still not be harassed about being too slow. 

 

I play as a single a lot and have learned to adjust my pace to keep wait time down. The only problem is if a group comes up behind me. But I can typically play pretty slow and still stay ahead of a foursome.

 

Playing at, what some would call, a slow pace is not bad in itself. It's only bad if you're holding up others.

 

BT

Well the tee sheet was full. I couldn't see the pile up behind them but if I was the group behind them I wouldn't be to happy seeing an open hole ahead of them. I get that you can only play a fast as the course is playing for the day. When it is slow I play slower myself because there is no where to go. I get that. I only thought that you still should keep up. I too would love to hang back and not have to wait. I feel if everyone would do that and create a hole gap because there is no place to go that would only make matters worse. Maybe I don't get it.

 

I recently went out as a twosome. There was a twosome in front of us and the course was extremely slow. We offered to pair up and they declined because they decided they would play two balls on each hole. It was true they had no place to go even playing two balls but I didn't think that was right. When the ranger came by I told him they were playing two balls, He went up and talked to them and he came back and said it was slow and as long as they were keeping up. So we decided to play two balls too. The ranger came by later and told us the foursome behind us complained we were playing two balls. I said we are doing exacting what the group ahead of us is doing and we are keeping up with them. You didn't have a problem with them doing it so I hope you told the foursome behind us the same thing you told us before. He told us to play only one ball and he would tell the group ahead the same thing.

 

I play alot as a single too. I agree with you I adjust my pace too but the problem does come up when a group comes up behind you. Now what do you do? I may putt around or chip during the wait. Do you continue to do this if the group behind is now waiting on you or do you walk off and stand to the side waiting on the next hole?

[JohnnyCashForever]

On 7/10/2021 at 11:33 AM, St Jimmy said:

I was behind a solo woman.  She was a very good player and was at the course practicing for a tournament being held there a week away.  

She was behind a foursome and I was in a group of three.

She would hit one tee shot then proceed to hit 3-4 approach shots into the green and putt them all out.  Reading each putt like a LPGA pro would.

At first I didn't care because hitting multiple balls as a solo is common practice for me when behind a large group.  Something to pass the time, but still keeping pace.  

 

Eventually she was two holes behind the foursome and the front nine was approaching three hours for us.

Keep in mind she was doing this on the 4th of July holiday weekend! 

 

By only hitting 1 tee shot we were never in position to catch her so we couldn't play through. 

Eventually I just left at the turn.  I didn't have 6+ hours to waste at the course.  

 

I have a membership so I wasn't out green fees. 

 

Watching this would drive me crazy.  But the bigger issue is how in the world did she get on the course as a single on July 4?  

[JohnnyCashForever]

On 6/30/2021 at 10:54 AM, nsxguy said:

IMO the group's only responsibilities are 1) to not hold up other groups and 2) to play at a comfortable pace for themselves - which is the question at hand BTW. 

Sometimes 1 and 2 are incompatible.

[JohnnyCashForever]

On 6/29/2021 at 8:35 PM, Carl Spackler3 said:

Slow means 1 thing to me : not keeping up to group in front of you

 

On 6/29/2021 at 9:07 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

That has always been and will always be a poor definition of slow play.

 

What about this instead:

 

Slow Play: Not keeping up with the group in front of you and not allowing the group waiting behind you to play through.

 

[ThinkingPlus]

25 minutes ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

 

 

What about this instead:

 

Slow Play: Not keeping up with the group in front of you and not allowing the group waiting behind you to play through.

 

You should always let faster groups play through unless you are waiting on groups in front.  This should be common courtesy and is somewhat independent of PoP (i.e., you could be on 3:00 pace, but a 2:30 pace group should still be let through if there is space).

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

Sometimes 1 and 2 are incompatible.

 

That's why #1 is listed first.

[naval2006]

Everytime I play with a starting golfer from my course I try to tell them that if you want to be a guy everybody wants to play with, you need to keep pace of play, whether you're scratch or bogey golfer.  Unless you're a pro playing for your income, there's no excuses for playing too slowly.  It's obnoxious.  At my course we only walk and the older the player, the faster.  

[abenjami]

I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for someone to play slow just because they are a better than average golfer.

 

But when it comes to judging slow play, I think people need to look at the totality of someone's play.  Me personally, I'm super fast off the tee and in the fairway, but much slower around the green.  If you only watched me around the green, you might think I'm playing a bit slow but if you calculate the total time on any given hole that I'm taking vs. the other 3 people in my group, I'm usually the fastest one or close to it.

Edited July 27, 2021 by abenjami

[Imp]

20 hours ago, abenjami said:

I don't see why anyone would think it's acceptable for someone to play slow just because they are a better than average golfer.

 

But when it comes to judging slow play, I think people need to look at the totality of someone's play.  Me personally, I'm super fast off the tee and in the fairway, but much slower around the green.  If you only watched me around the green, you might think I'm playing a bit slow but if you calculate the total time on any given hole that I'm taking vs. the other 3 people in my group, I'm usually the fastest one or close to it.

Are you the last off the green all the time? Then you might be a slow player.

Are you taking over 40 seconds to putt when it's your turn to do so, because you're reading everything? Then you might be a slow player.

Does your group lag behind the group in front? Then you might be a slow player. 

Totality means nothing if you can't keep up with your group or the group in front of you. (or in the very least don't be the group that slows down everyone behind you.*)

 

There is no "I was fast there, so I can be slower here" allowance. That's kind of like "But I'm doing the speed limit!" (in the left/passing lane, not passing people.)

Or even better analogy getting pulled for speeding... "Yes, officer, I was a little quick there, but I'll go under the speed limit later to compensate. It will all average out in the end." Just doesn't work that way.

 

* All things being equal, all foursomes, and a full course/tee sheet.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Imp

[puttingmatt]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:32 PM, Greenie said:

I was playing my round yesterday. We teed off on one and there was a group behind us ready to tee off. They teed off right after us when we were out of range. The first hole is a par4,the second a par3, and the third is a par4. When were done teeing off on three they were getting to the second tee box. I mentioned how would you like to be stuck behind that group? I don't know what was ahead but we hit the wall on four and it was extremely slow the rest of the day. This allowed the group behind to stay in view of me most of the day.

 

I like to see good golf shots and like to watch good players. I had plenty of time to watch the group behind us and I soon noticed they were decent sticks. One player really stuck out not only because I thought he was good but because of his routine. It went like this. He would take 5 swings one handed behind his ball. He would stand behind his ball and visualize the shot opening and closing his eyes.  He would pick up his club several times behind the ball to get his aiming point. He would take around five practice swings then address the ball. Every shot was spot on. On the green he would move around the green scoping all the breaks. I seen him make a lot of good putts. From what I saw no doubt he was in the low 70's.

 

I'm a mid 80's player. I don't do much of any of that. I stand behind my ball and pick my aimimg point, address the ball, and hit the the ball. Sometimes I'll take one or two practice swings if my back is stiffening up from waiting. On the green I mark the ball if it is in somebodys way or I see dirt on it. Most of the time I walk up behind my ball bend down and get a read from behind and putt. The most time I spend is chipping. I'll take practice swings as needed until I feel the swing matches the distance I want to chip the ball.

 

I mentioned to the guy that rode with me to the course on the way home that that guy was really good but I could never play with a guy like that. It would drive me crazy waiting on him do to his routine. My friend said maybe he played good because he had a good routine and if I had a better routine I would play better too. 

 

I come accross posts on slow play all the time. It's not unusual to see posts about some guy plumb bobbing all over the green only to leave it 5ft short. Some guy in the fairway doing all of the above mentioned only to duff their ball down the fairway. It drives people crazy as it does me.

 

So my question is. Are these methods of routine acceptable when you are good?  And why does it appear not to proper when you are not as good and are trying to get a better rountine and play better?

 

 I'm not saying I want to mimick the guy I mention but I always thought I may play better if I had a better routine especially reading the green from every angle which I simply don't do.

 

 

Slow players are just hacks, and no deliberate slow play is not acceptable.

[Buzzkill]

Nope!

[tboh]

30 minutes ago, Imp said:

Are you the last off the green all the time? Then you might be a slow player.

Are you taking over 40 seconds to putt when it's your turn to do so, because you're reading everything? Then you might be a slow player.

Does your group lag behind the group in front? Then you might be a slow player. 

Totality means nothing if you can't keep up with your group or the group in front of you. (or in the very least don't be the group that slows down everyone behind you.*)

 

There is no "I was fast there, so I can be slower here" allowance. That's kind of like "But I'm doing the speed limit!" (in the left/passing lane, not passing people.)

Or even better analogy getting pulled for speeding... "Yes, officer, I was a little quick there, but I'll go under the speed limit later to compensate. It will all average out in the end." Just doesn't work that way.

 

* All things being equal, all foursomes, and a full course/tee sheet.

 

Yea but that's what DeShamBo said ...

[caniac6]

We played yesterday behind four guys, with three walking. We had two walking, and two riding. The group in front of us had no one in front of them, and we waited quite a bit on the back. It was a 4 hour round, but it should have been less. Our group usually has 4 tee times. About two weeks ago I played in the first tee time of our group. We played a three, and with nobody holding us up, we played in 3 hours, and we didn't rush.

[Strategery]

No, it's not acceptable, but if I shoot 72 and take appropriate amount of care in my playing and you shoot 95 while looking for balls and rushing, who is actually slower?

[Imp]

9 hours ago, Strategery said:

No, it's not acceptable, but if I shoot 72 and take appropriate amount of care in my playing and you shoot 95 while looking for balls and rushing, who is actually slower?

You, and the 95er, if you fall behind the group in front. It's shared fault for slowness. What happens when you play with other people of similar ability? What happens with the 95er and his group? It's really simple. Don't fall behind, and don't be the main reason why people behind have to wait. Do your stuff, get off the green. Don't cause undue delay on the green "just because it's busy" and "we're not going anywhere", "all they're/we're going to do is wait" (phrases of the slow player that think they're fast, trying to control the pace of their group, and course). Putt, get off, wait on tee, LET others play their shots instead of waiting LONGER for YOU to do your stuff. Waiting on the tee on a busy course is where most of the waiting should be done, not on the fairway (them) nor lollygagging on the green (you). That's why they usually have benches on the tee boxes and not fairways. 😉

Edited July 29, 2021 by Imp

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:05 AM, Greenie said:

I recently went out as a twosome. There was a twosome in front of us and the course was extremely slow. We offered to pair up and they declined because they decided they would play two balls on each hole. It was true they had no place to go even playing two balls but I didn't think that was right.

 

This one is my pet peeve as well. I have a little 9 hole exec course that I play sometimes on weekday mornings and it's where I've taken my son on the weekends as he's learning the game. 

 

The weekends are brutal for pace of play, largely because it's a novice course. Total yardage of 1115 yards, and 6 of 9 holes are <=100 yards, but you'll see a lot of players making triple or worse on a lot of holes. So...It's slow. I get that.

 

But what pisses me off is that the tee sheet is full on weekend mornings, but if there's no starter that day, you'll see twosomes that are supposed to be paired up just deciding on the first tee to play separately. Being twosomes, they're not going to improve POP--there's nowhere to go if you're fast. But by being twosomes, they're taking up two holes at once for 4 people rather than being combined and taking up one hole at a time for 4 people, and that just makes the course slower for everyone else. 

 

I was out there a couple weeks ago and the 5th hole is the first par 4, and it's the hole where the tee boxes back up with a lot of players waiting. As we approached the tee, I saw two twosomes, a foursome, a single, and then my son and I with the two guys we were paired up with. If I had my way, I would have forced the twosomes to pair up and asked the single to join our foursome--we as 5 would have no problem keeping up with the typical foursome on that course.

 

But, alas, I'm not in charge.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I don't know any scratch but know a few low single digit and they are some of the faster players. Deliberate and just pull the trigger.  It's the idiot that throws grass in the air, takes a few practice swings, waggles etc and then tops it 80 yards. 😉

[MountainKing]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:24 AM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I don't know any scratch but know a few low single digit and they are some of the faster players. Deliberate and just pull the trigger.  It's the idiot that throws grass in the air, takes a few practice swings, waggles etc and then tops it 80 yards. 😉

 

100%, most of the better players I play with and see, the ball is in the air before you can blink, on the greens they're ready to hit their putt as soon as you throw your mark down or tap out on your putt.  It's been mentioned a few times here, but one of the big components to pace, that seemingly has gotten lost in the last few years, is keeping up with the group in front of you.  Everybody seems to look at the time the course indicates and view that as bible.  That time is the max time you should be taking, the group in front of you should be the pace you're keeping up with.  I don't get why it's a hard concept, a 4 some of any level golfer should be capable of playing a round in 3:30 without rushing.   

Edited August 2, 2021 by MountainKing

[madchens]

This thread is a perfect example of how each golfers views differ on what is "on pace", "slow play", "deliberate vs fast", etc. I have yet to, in-person or online, see someone state that they are the slow player. I think nobody feels like they are slow.

 

You know what I did? I got sick and tired of complaining to myself about how slow it was and decided to do something about it. I book the first tee time in the morning on weekends. You know what? It is generally the same players each week and we play in 2:40-3:00 for 18 as a 3 or 4 some. Never once do I feel rushed or that I am being pushed out of my comfort zone speed wise. The only fundamental difference that I can see is that they understand how to play ready golf. Players are at their ball, no matter fairway, green, tee and ready to hit when it is their turn.

 

Played Saturday morning at 6:10AM, finished in 2:50, home by 9:30AM (which includes 20 minute drive to course) and I played with 2 very below average players who nobody would deem fast. All we did was keep pace with the group who went off at 6:00AM. Played Sunday afternoon at 2:00PM and didn't finish until 6:45PM. I have zero clue what causes such a tremendous gaps in round times other than 1 group not keeping pace with the group in front has a cascading effect.

 

Whether or not the group in front of you is fast, you should be aiming to keep pace with them and not to hit the "maximum" pace designated by courses.

 

Carry on, I just know that I got tired of slow play and listening to myself complain about it so instead I chose to take action.

Edited August 2, 2021 by madchens

[nsxguy]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:10 PM, caniac6 said:

We played yesterday behind four guys, with three walking. We had two walking, and two riding. The group in front of us had no one in front of them, and we waited quite a bit on the back. It was a 4 hour round, but it should have been less.

 

Why should it have been less ? Because you wanted it to be ?

 

Why didn't you, once you saw the group in front wasn't likely catching the group in front of them, didn't you ask nicely to play through ?

 

And if told no, make a call to the clubhouse to get a ranger out there ?

 

But they played in 4 hours, certainly an acceptable pace to the majority of golfers and, most likely, easily within the pace of play suggested by the course itself.

[rogolf]

59 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Why should it have been less ? Because you wanted it to be ?

 

Why didn't you, once you saw the group in front wasn't likely catching the group in front of them, didn't you ask nicely to play through ?

 

And if told no, make a call to the clubhouse to get a ranger out there ?

 

But they played in 4 hours, certainly an acceptable pace to the majority of golfers and, most likely, easily within the pace of play suggested by the course itself.

"Pace of play suggested by the course" was introduced with the intent to reduce the pace of play.  Now it is used as a means to justify slower play.  If the suggested pace of play is 4:15 and a group finishes within that time, but are 30 minutes behind the group immediately in front of them, they think that they are okay.  It was a strategic error by the clubs - they should have set the expected pace lower, maybe at 3:45.

[nsxguy]

51 minutes ago, rogolf said:

"Pace of play suggested by the course" was introduced with the intent to reduce the pace of play.  Now it is used as a means to justify slower play.  If the suggested pace of play is 4:15 and a group finishes within that time, but are 30 minutes behind the group immediately in front of them, they think that they are okay.  It was a strategic error by the clubs - they should have set the expected pace lower, maybe at 3:45.

 

They ARE OK - so long as they're not holding up the following group. And if they are holding up the following group they should allow them to play through.

 

But I think I already said that.

[caniac6]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Why should it have been less ? Because you wanted it to be ?

 

Why didn't you, once you saw the group in front wasn't likely catching the group in front of them, didn't you ask nicely to play through ?

 

And if told no, make a call to the clubhouse to get a ranger out there ?

 

But they played in 4 hours, certainly an acceptable pace to the majority of golfers and, most likely, easily within the pace of play suggested by the course itself.

We usually have a group that has 4 tee times on Tuesday and Thursday. This was the lead off group that day. One of the guys was a new guy in our group, and another was his buddy that is not part of our group. Those two were the ones that slowed the foursome. Another guy in the foursome, that is a fast player, was complaining as well. We don’t have rangers. I believe the guy responsible for putting the foursomes together will no longer put that new guy in the first group, and because of the slow play, and another behavior issue, his buddy will not be back with our group. As far as the why should it be less question, I hope you are not the guy driving 55 in the left lane just because it’s the acceptable speed limit.

Edited August 3, 2021 by caniac6

[Hateto3Putt]

All I took from the first posting was the guy needed 10 practice swings.

 

[tboh]

Just a few random comments frm a not scratch

- 4 hours rounds seem sooooo unnecessarily long to me

- Letting others play thru carries a bad stigma ... you can play on-pace & still hold people up