Is it acceptable to play slow if you are scratch?

[krtgolfing]

12 hours ago, Shilgy said:

If he is is it him that’s slowing down the group?

 

4 sets of eyes are better than 1. Should make finding the golf ball much quicker in turn making the group have a faster pace.

[leekgolf]

Simply no. Being a good player probably means you should play faster. You don't spend time looking for balls and you hit fewer shots.

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, Carl Spackler3 said:

Slow means 1 thing to me : not keeping up to group in front of you

 

13 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That has always been and will always be a poor definition of slow play.

 

You ain't kiddin' !!!

 

Why should a group have to chase 4(?) jackrabbits ? What if there's only 2 or 3 in the group in front ?

 

And other than employees of the course who have to stick around until all golfers are off the course, why should the course care if a group is 5 holes behind so long as that group is not holding up anybody else ?

 

IMO the group's only responsibilities are 1) to not hold up other groups and 2) to play at a comfortable pace for themselves - which is the question at hand BTW. 

[Imp]

On 6/27/2021 at 1:32 PM, Greenie said:

I was playing my round yesterday. We teed off on one and there was a group behind us ready to tee off. They teed off right after us when we were out of range. The first hole is a par4,the second a par3, and the third is a par4. When were done teeing off on three they were getting to the second tee box. I mentioned how would you like to be stuck behind that group? I don't know what was ahead but we hit the wall on four and it was extremely slow the rest of the day.

 

 

Was there anyone behind them? Not seeing that mentioned. It's assumed, sure. But not actually said. (and they were a three, right?) If there was no one behind them teeing off on 1 after they teed off? No reason to not take your time.... just understand that if someone does catch up, then you should pick up your pace. And as a three, it's not going to be hard. 
 

That said, if you're not waiting as a threesome on the group in front to clear, you're out of position and the gap in front of you can be considered deliberate and should be asked to pick up the pace by the course. On a crowded course, on a Saturday, there is no reason to even be a half hole behind. If everyone "waited" or "strategically played" so the whole hole was open when teeing off, there would be words needed by the course... if they weren't keeping pace with time of play. As someone said, it's a suggestion, and typically considered a maximum. One should play the hole as expediently as possible while keeping pace with the course (not being the group setting pace). 

 

[Shilgy]

On 6/30/2021 at 4:44 AM, leekgolf said:

Simply no. Being a good player probably means you should play faster. You don't spend time looking for balls and you hit fewer shots.

No question…..but that has little to do with his routine. 
Playing faster is an overall time.  There are a multitude of ways to play fast with a rather deliberate routine.

[Tdsjfb]

No, unless you're not holding anybody up behind you.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Tdsjfb

[Bye]

The thing I hate most is waiting for a group and seeing someone wait for their turn, then putting their glove on and pulling a club. Just be ready to go when it’s your turn.

 

As others have said it can be off putting either way. I remember one year playing in a tournament where the 2 favourites were drawn together. One had 14 waggles in his pre shot routine, the other just put the ball on a tee abs hit it. Both played terribly that day.

 

 

[bcski]

Played today with a new member and it was borderline.  Probably shot about an adjusted 87.  

 

I say adjusted since he would lift and place his ball before about 50% of his shots...  But the preshot routine was PAINFUL.  After the 4th hole I started watching the second hand on my watch.  The pre shot routine averaged 53 seconds.  Didn't matter if driver or putter.  From the time he stood behind the ball to lineup/consider his shot/putt - SOOOOO painfully slow.

 

I can foresee him having issues with the membership.... 

[Vespar]

Its never acceptable to play slow especially if you are a good golfer. Here is why.

 

A late august PGA tour tournament was set up with 3somes ( part of the fedex cup). The length of course was pinned at 7400 yards. Wing was blowing 15 MPH with some higher gusts,. The course itself due to its lay out and terrain had tee box between each hole many times 40-60 yards away from each other. 

 

These 3somes with a load of cash and cut line on the horizon, along with their yardage books, calculating the wind,  plum bobbing putts completed their rounds in 3 hours 20 minutes to 3H and 40 minutes. 

 

Rounds when walking at most courses, by 15-20 handicappers should be comfortably completed in 3:45 minutes or faster. 

 

[Vespar]

9 hours ago, Par Be A Joke said:

Played today with a new member and it was borderline.  Probably shot about an adjusted 87.  

 

I say adjusted since he would lift and place his ball before about 50% of his shots...  But the preshot routine was PAINFUL.  After the 4th hole I started watching the second hand on my watch.  The pre shot routine averaged 53 seconds.  Didn't matter if driver or putter.  From the time he stood behind the ball to lineup/consider his shot/putt - SOOOOO painfully slow.

 

I can foresee him having issues with the membership.... 

 I read once, i believe it was golf digest magazine a few years ago. Total time of after deciding on your club, addressing and hitting your ball for 18 holes was something like <15 minutes in total.  The gist of the article was what the hell are you doing for the other 4 plus hours?

 

 

[leekgolf]

23 hours ago, Shilgy said:

No question…..but that has little to do with his routine. 
Playing faster is an overall time.  There are a multitude of ways to play fast with a rather deliberate routine.

Agreed- he could have visualize his shot, taken his 5 one handed practice swings, found his aiming point and more while waiting for another player to hit. He and his group could play ready golf etc.

 

It's a hell of a lot easier to play fast when hitting fewer shots and not looking for balls. There isn't much high handicap players can do about that. A good player can be deliberate AND fast.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Vespar said:

Its never acceptable to play slow especially if you are a good golfer. Here is why.

 

A late august PGA tour tournament was set up with 3somes ( part of the fedex cup). The length of course was pinned at 7400 yards. Wing was blowing 15 MPH with some higher gusts,. The course itself due to its lay out and terrain had tee box between each hole many times 40-60 yards away from each other. 

 

These 3somes with a load of cash and cut line on the horizon, along with their yardage books, calculating the wind,  plum bobbing putts completed their rounds in 3 hours 20 minutes to 3H and 40 minutes. 

 

Rounds when walking at most courses, by 15-20 handicappers should be comfortably completed in 3:45 minutes or faster. 

 

 

 

Good grief. Don't you realize it's never a good thing to take a "one off" and apply it to every other similar situation ?

 

The average Tour TWO-some takes 4 hours.

 

That 2-some hits approximately 140 shots. The 3-some 210.

 

Your 15-20 handicappers play in FOUR-somes and take approximately TWICE as many shots as your 3-some and some 2.7 TIMES as many as the average tour 2-some.

 

Not to mention having to look for their own golf balls and getting into far more trouble.

 

And you think they should take roughly the same time to play ?

Edited July 2, 2021 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, leekgolf said:

Agreed- he could have visualize his shot, taken his 5 one handed practice swings, found his aiming point and more while waiting for another player to hit. He and his group could play ready golf etc.

 

It's a hell of a lot easier to play fast when hitting fewer shots and not looking for balls. There isn't much high handicap players can do about that. A good player can be deliberate AND fast.

 

Sorry, a player can't be deliberate and fast. They are opposites.

 

And while he certainly could do some of that stuff while others are hitting the problem there is that he is no longer in his "routine" if he does so.

 

He really needs to figure out how to eliminate some things from his routine; possibly by moving some of those things you mention outside of his routine.

 

But that takes change - and most don't like change.

[Vespar]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

 

And you think they should take roughly the same time to play ?

I never said that but thanks for drawing that conclusion....sheesh

 

Chew on this as far as average golfer time to play 18.... 

 

What is the average time to play 18 holes of golf?

Conventional wisdom holds that the average time to play a round of 18 holes of golf is approximately four hours. For example, the Hammock Creek golf club in Florida tracked average playing times by month for nearly two years, and the average worked out to four hours and eleven seconds.

 

so yeas a professional PGA tour 3 some can play it 3:30 minutes, I witnessed it myself. 

 

No need to respond for this is deviating from the topic

Edited July 2, 2021 by Vespar

[RainShadow]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:16 AM, ThinkingPlus said:

No it is never acceptable to be slow.  However, "slow" means different things to different people.  There are some who view anything over 3 hours as slow for 18 holes.  For some it is 3.5 hours.  Others it is 4 hours or more.  I find rabbits to be just as inconsiderate as the turtles.  Playing bad golf quickly has no merit the same as playing good golf slowly.

 

Additionally, better players do have the luxury of taking a little more time per shot because they usually make fewer strokes and have fewer search/penalty situations.  Abusing that luxury is poor etiquette.

 Absolutely true. It's not a speed march.  3:45- 4hrs is my expected time with others on the course. 3:30 if there's no one in front.

I try to keep up with the group in front of us, within reason.

 I'm not slow, but I take my tie on the greens. I'm not a long hitter, so chipping and putting is how I keep my scores down.

To me, slow players are the ones not ready to hit when it's their turn. People who don't know how to play cart golf drive up the wall!

Edited July 2, 2021 by RainShadow

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Vespar said:

I never said that but thanks for drawing that conclusion....sheesh

 

Chew on this as far as average golfer time to play 18.... 

 

What is the average time to play 18 holes of golf?

Conventional wisdom holds that the average time to play a round of 18 holes of golf is approximately four hours. For example, the Hammock Creek golf club in Florida tracked average playing times by month for nearly two years, and the average worked out to four hours and eleven seconds.

 

so yeas a professional PGA tour 3 some can play it 3:30 minutes, I witnessed it myself. 

 

No need to respond for this is deviating from the topic

 

It was incredibly easy to draw that, or at least similar, conclusion.

 

Nobody, including me, said that tour players couldn't play in 3:30. I never said that but thanks for drawing that conclusion....sheesh

 

I'd say "conventional wisdom" is wrong. IMO 4 hours is a good time for most groups; certainly not average. Most courses would be tickled pink if everyone played in 4 hours.

 

Then again, I've only regularly played public courses in or close to urban areas and almost always on the weekends. After the first hour or 2 of tee times a group was lucky to finish in 5 hours.

 

Later.

 

 

 

[RCGA]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:09 PM, krtgolfing said:

100 shots at 30 seconds each equals 50 minutes.

72 shots at 1 minute each equals. 72 minutes.

 

Answer is no! 

 

Now factor in the 100 shooter hitting mulligans, searching for balls, the additional walking time for all those extra 20-30 shots, the fact that the entire group has to wait behind you or risk getting hit, etc.

[charli]

It’s even worse if you’re scratch 

[mjguzik]

No.  It would be an encroachment on his playing partners allocation  of time.  No man should encroach on another man’s time. Everyone starts a round with the expectation to finish somewhere between 3 to 5 hours depending on venue, how busy, and level of player ability.  We generally understand this if you are out in the afternoon compared to the expectation in a morning round.  The routine the OP described is just asinine and makes me wonder if the guy struggles finding playing partners.  As others have mentioned, it is not how well you play, it is the courtesy you extend to others when you play.

[St Jimmy]

I was behind a solo woman.  She was a very good player and was at the course practicing for a tournament being held there a week away.  

She was behind a foursome and I was in a group of three.

She would hit one tee shot then proceed to hit 3-4 approach shots into the green and putt them all out.  Reading each putt like a LPGA pro would.

At first I didn't care because hitting multiple balls as a solo is common practice for me when behind a large group.  Something to pass the time, but still keeping pace.  

 

Eventually she was two holes behind the foursome and the front nine was approaching three hours for us.

Keep in mind she was doing this on the 4th of July holiday weekend! 

 

By only hitting 1 tee shot we were never in position to catch her so we couldn't play through. 

Eventually I just left at the turn.  I didn't have 6+ hours to waste at the course.  

 

I have a membership so I wasn't out green fees. 

 

[bobfoster]

Never acceptable to play slow. Handicap is completely irrelevant. The frustrating waits on tee boxes, the ridiculously long weekend rounds? They are measured by the numbers on a watch, not the numbers on a scorecard.

 

Don't care how good anyone is - they either keep up with the group in front of them (really all one can do), or they are torturing all of us. And there is no difference between being tortured by a scratch golfer or a 20 handicap.

 

I'm not a fan of watching NetFlix on my phone between every hole. Screen is too small.

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by bobfoster

[Imp]

21 hours ago, bobfoster said:

I'm not a fan of watching NetFlix on my phone between every hole. Screen is too small.

 

I have Amazon Prime, where I can watch PGA Live through it. I usually will have it open, muted, through a round on the weekends. 

[Nevek]

Maybe to continue to topic, what would you say is an acceptable pace for putting?

One topic that I really struggle with is that many high handicappers are frustrating fast when it comes to putting; no practice swing or no reading greens.

 

[Fairway14]

On 6/27/2021 at 10:32 AM, Greenie said:

 

 

So my question is. Are these methods of routine acceptable when you are good?  

 

 

 

Pre shot routines are very helpful towards playing consistently good golf. There is absolutely no good sense reason that a pre shot routine be especially time consuming.

[Imp]

1 hour ago, Nevek said:

Maybe to continue to topic, what would you say is an acceptable pace for putting?

One topic that I really struggle with is that many high handicappers are frustrating fast when it comes to putting; no practice swing or no reading greens.

 

Do you only start to read the green when it's your turn? Then you have 40 seconds from start of read to the time you hit the putt. 

You should start reading before it's your turn (if you can, of course) so it really shouldn't be 40 seconds *more* once it is your turn... you should have your shot pretty good to go by then. That's my biggest attribution to "you're taking too long"... watching someone gabbing on the green,  doing nothing, watching the rolls, and then only starts to do their thing once it's their turn. Shold be able to multi-task, line up while others are playing their shots, and watching their rolls. 

And, if you're going to take another 40 seconds for a 1 foot putt on a fairly green if you missed, we may have words something like "while we're young." You did all your looking before your putt, and it didn't change between shots. 

[llewol007]

No reason to play slow. Period. If you want to play slow, pick up some bowling shoes and go to your loca Bowling alley and get off my golf course. 

[iknowbagu]

I think there is less excuse for a good player to be slow.  I'm far and away the best player in my regular circle of playing partners and if I ever felt like I was the reason we weren't moving around the course at a nice pace I'd be embarrassed.  It's our job as the most accomplished, and often most knowledgeable of rules and etiquette, to keep the round moving.  With great power comes great responsibility.  

[Mike_C]

It usually is about being prepared.  There are things you should do before its "your turn" to play.  It's the guy who is oblivious to the world, then all of the sudden somebody says "you're away", and it just dawns on them that now they need to get their yardage, check the wind, pick a club, start their routine.......

 

It's like the person in line at the check out at the grocery store, watching things go down the line, then the person tells them its time to pay, and they act like they are shocked and start fumbling around for their wallet or purse, even worse if they are paying by check, but they are all flustered like they have never done this before....as the five people in line behind them glare at them.....

[Pepperturbo]

NO to the OPs question. 

 

But It's important to realize, POP and resulting skill do NOT go hand-in-hand.  A persons POP is driven by how quickly he/she takes in and processes information and preparedness.  Difference is like 8-bit vs 64-bit. 

 

Then there's this; slow or fast are POP extremes, reason I tend to ignore both.  If someone can't stomach the pop of another person, there's a good chance he/she has problems tolerating differences in people.  I have a friend that plays much faster than me, and I play relatively fast.  He gets frustrated with people in front of us often which leads to his constant complaining.  Last time I had to tell him to shut-the-hell up; it's tiring to listen to, no matter the subject.  We've known each other for years, so we say what we're thinking.  His frustration with others permeates most aspects of his life, and it costs him in ways he'll never fathom. 

 

For those reasons, we won't ever find an equitable solution for POP.   So, why whine about something YOU can never control.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Ri_Redneck]

On 6/27/2021 at 5:49 PM, cadoipi said:

"Is it acceptable to play slow if you are scratch?" -No!

 

However it sounds like the group behind you was playing at a pace that "matched the speed of traffic" on the course.  Perhaps this guy often plays the course at similar times and knows it will be impossible to play in less than 4.5 hours given the situation on the course.  With this information he has a choice, either play fast just so he can hurry up and wait before every tee/approach shot or play slow enough that he is never waiting (but without delaying the the group behind him since there is no where for them to go). 

 

Perhaps his elaborate pre-shot routine is special to situations like this where the course is backed up and he purposely does it so he does not have to wait a few minutes before each tee/approach shot.  I see no problem with this as long as he is playing at "the speed of traffic on the course"

This is exactly what I thought. Living in New England where weekend rounds are almost always 5 hrs. You have to learn to set your pace to match the pace of the day or expect to be frustrated from the start. When I play on an uncrowded course, It typically takes me about 3-3.5 hrs. When playing in crowded conditions, my routine doesn't really change, but I will sometimes add practice swings to keep the muscles loose (older guy). So I can see this being the situation in the OP's observations.

 

BT