distance debate

[MPAndreassi]

Who cares if the winning score is -20? As long as there’s groups of people in the hunt that’s all we can ask for. 

[bladehunter]

32 minutes ago, 2over said:

As a number of threads here have noted, and great players like Jack Nicklaus have long said, the modern golf ball just goes too far. It requires ever larger courses and exotic maintenance techniques to produce insanely hard and fast greens to make it somewhat challenging for tour pros. 

 

Most knowledgeable insiders say it's 80% the golf ball and that sounds about right. I would reference a brand new Titleist Tour Balata from the 80's (Titleist must either have some or could make a few). Mandate a ball with a much softer cover, and perhaps limit compression to no more than 80.  I'm guessing the spin rate off the driver with such a ball would be over 3500 rpm with a 115 mph swing rather than 2000-2200.. This would probably bring a 115 mph driver center strike from the 295ish carry you see today to something around 265-70. The 100 mph swing and the 247ish carry (I've seen this from a number of different robot tests, and I may be off, but I think that's ballpark) would likely lose less because lower speed is lower spin. Low to mid 230s? So the gap would narrow and it would reward the player who can manage spin with more level, square face center strikes. It would reward ball striking more than sheer force and would make the game a bit more interesting I would think. 

 

I'd also limit drivers to steel only, 200cc, 43" max, with at least 10* loft, made of steel or wood, no titanium or carbon fiber and require a minimum face thickness that removes most if not all the trampoline effect. I don't think this would have as dramatic an effect on distance (I saw a video of Dustin Johnson a couple years ago carrying a old persimmon driver 290+ yards--but with the modern ball. You combine an old school balata-like spinny soft ball with a small non-trampoline driver and you'll see distance come down and solid ball striking rewarded more than it is today. 

 

It would narrow the gap between the longest and shortest elite level players in raw yardage terms, and make it easier to hold the rock hard greens. It would speed up play because less balls in the woods (a shorter drive makes a functionally wider fairway). It would reduce the cost of equipment and R&D. A 6800 yard course would challenge tour pros again. Less real estate, more walkable, affordable and sustainable courses. The high handicap golfer would hardly notice much difference really, but the tour game would be dialed back distance wise and be more comparable to earlier eras and the winning score on the Old Course would not be -20.

Save your breath. It’s too logical to gain traction.

 

 I mean people rant and rave over watching tiger win his us ams on YouTube etc. but they don’t stop and think about why some of those shots are great.  The easier it gets to hit these shots. The less great they are. 
 

this isn’t just a pro problem.  Go watch any higher level Am event on a local - non modern course.  You’ll see a million plays that are not in the designed path of play .  
 

I just played our county am championship this weekend.  This was on a very hard and fast course. The winner was -11 for 3 days. Three 65s shot the first day. And two guys shot -11 in the end. . And had a playoff. Several -8 etc. these are guys with jobs.  This wasn’t pros.  It’s a bunch of “never was”  guys on a really hard course.   I don’t believe for one second this is possible if they can’t fly driver over a lot of trees. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by bladehunter

[Barfolomew]

Whats the effect on watchin pro golf.....  forcing guys to play more mid and long irons.  So that means missing more greens. 

 

So as a viewer it means we would see more chipping is all.... I actually like watching pitching and chipping more then putting..... so I guess wouldnt be bad 🫖🍪

[ChipStrokes]

the cheapest and easiest thing to do is to just not care and leave well enough alone. 

[596]

I don't see any changes needed except to the courses themselves.  No equipment changes are needed.  If you limit the ball the gap will still exist between long and short hitters.  It will punish the Tours shorter hitters more then the longer hitters. 

 

Just make the bomb and gouge not worth the risk. Longer rough, tighter fairways,  longer grass in the fairways, unraked traps, etc.  All it takes is different maintenance.  

 

No need to change equipment. 

[Abh159]

Golfers hit it too far, NFL teams pass the ball too much, NBA players shoot too many threes, MLB players hit too many home runs... Just because something is different compared to how it was 40 years ago doesn't mean it's worse. 

 

Can't wait until I'm 80 years old so I can tell all of those future young whippersnappers that everything was better in my day...

[ThinkingPlus]

32 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Not sure I understand. I was referencing that there may be “competing golf leagues” (not naming names ; ) that might not adhere to the USGA/RA rules and just let the players keep playing any ball or equipment they want 

Well that would guarantee no OWGR points ever.  If you aren't playing by the RoG, you aren't playing golf.

[MUNIGRIT]

Do we really need another thread on this?

[bscinstnct]

22 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Well that would guarantee no OWGR points ever.  If you aren't playing by the RoG, you aren't playing golf.

 

OWGR?

 

Who needs OWGR when you got $200MM, a party jumbo jet, and an F1 style leaderboard 🤣

 

Youre right, of course. But gotta wonder if that wouldn’t help liv keep pushing the guys away from “tradition”. Seems guys are joining now knowing their major days may be limited. 

[So_Cal]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Save your breath. It’s too logical to gain traction.

 

 I mean people rant and rave over watching tiger win his us ams on YouTube etc. but they don’t stop and think about why some of those shots are great.  The easier it gets to hit these shots. The less great they are. 
 

this isn’t just a pro problem.  Go watch any higher level Am event on a local - non modern course.  You’ll see a million plays that are not in the designed path of play .  
 

I just played our county am championship this weekend.  This was on a very hard and fast course. The winner was -11 for 3 days. Three 65s shot the first day. And two guys shot -11 in the end. . And had a playoff. Several -8 etc. these are guys with jobs.  This wasn’t pros.  It’s a bunch of “never was”  guys on a really hard course.   I don’t believe for one second this is possible if they can’t fly driver over a lot of trees. 

100%.  Shot -6 this weekend after not playing for 3 weeks.  Okay I putted lights out but the modern driver/pro V make it all possible.  Irons into 4 of 5 par 5s.  That’s par 68 right off.  Never could have done that years ago.  

[munichop]

The issue at the highest levels of sport are to balance the entertainment aspect of the competition with the integrity of the competition so you can promote the sport and somehow make money from it.  There is now a whole generation of golfers who have never used anything but the the latest tech equipment and have no idea how much more challenging it was to shoot near or below par on a full length golf course. 

2 weeks ago I shot my career best 65 on a course I have played for 20 years.  It beat the 66 I shot when I won the northern amateur  18 years ago- from the same tees.  But I have lost 15 mph clubhead speed on my driver, my eyes are worse plus all the other aging issues that pop up affecting my ability to score.  There is no way the recent 65 was better than the older 66.  The equipment has shortened the course for all the players at the highest levels.  They regularly play courses over 1000 yards shorter than they should but everyone thinks they are so good.  The reality is they are not tested the way players once were.  Give all the mlb hitters aluminum bats and watch the home run records fall.  But don't tell me they are better hitters.

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, 596 said:

I don't see any changes needed except to the courses themselves.  No equipment changes are needed.  If you limit the ball the gap will still exist between long and short hitters.  It will punish the Tours shorter hitters more then the longer hitters. 

 

Just make the bomb and gouge not worth the risk. Longer rough, tighter fairways,  longer grass in the fairways, unraked traps, etc.  All it takes is different maintenance.  

 

No need to change equipment. 

not sure why this has to be repeated so much but that maintenance strategy actually makes bomb and gouge more necessary and effective. Short hitters aren’t accurate enough to overcome the distance gap in that scenario. Look at winged foot. If everyone is missing fairways, then just hit it as far as possible because it’s easier to hit wedge that 6 irons out of long rough. 

[596]

14 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

not sure why this has to be repeated so much but that maintenance strategy actually makes bomb and gouge more necessary and effective. Short hitters aren’t accurate enough to overcome the distance gap in that scenario. Look at winged foot. If everyone is missing fairways, then just hit it as far as possible because it’s easier to hit wedge that 6 irons out of long rough. 

We'll need to agree to disagree. 

[subrew]

2 hours ago, 596 said:

I don't see any changes needed except to the courses themselves.  No equipment changes are needed.  If you limit the ball the gap will still exist between long and short hitters.  It will punish the Tours shorter hitters more then the longer hitters. 

 

 

This just isn't true.  You can find ball tests on Youtube where they have tested very soft compression balls against the firmer tour level balls.  The really fast swing speed players really over compress the super soft balls, and can lose a good chunk of distance.  Meanwhile, a mid-level swing speed player might actually GAIN distance hitting the soft compression ball, since they also tend to spin less.  At a Tour level, it might mean a Rory or Bryson loses 10-15yds, while a Ian Poulter only loses a couple.

 

Meanwhile, that softer, lower-spinning ball might actually gain distance for a mid-speed 95mph driver shot.  So a bulk of the average joes might pick up a few yards.

 

This even plays out in shots with 7-irons.  A super fast pro hitting a 7-iron can still over compress a soft ball, and lose distance.  Meanwhile a mid speed average Joe can actually gain a few yards with that soft ball (again, because soft balls often spin less.)

 

One of the test even showed the lower compression balls gained distance with full wedge shots (at fast speeds) because of the lower spin.  

 

It is not a purely linear loss between fast and slower players.  There seems to actually be a tipping point that goes from losing distance to gaining distance with respect to club speed, compression etc.  

Edited July 18, 2022 by subrew

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, klebs01 said:

not sure why this has to be repeated so much but that maintenance strategy actually makes bomb and gouge more necessary and effective. Short hitters aren’t accurate enough to overcome the distance gap in that scenario. Look at winged foot. If everyone is missing fairways, then just hit it as far as possible because it’s easier to hit wedge that 6 irons out of long rough. 

 

1 hour ago, 596 said:

We'll need to agree to disagree. 

 

Seems to me this would be a really easy thing to figure out. Sure we can look to Winged Foot and that Bryson won it, but any single player in a single tournament is too small of a sample size to work from, so you can't just look at the winners. There's a chance that bomb & gouge can work for one lucky guy who wins due to lucky breaks, good lies, etc, even if everyone else using that strategy ends up 20th+ or misses the cut while the shorter more accurate hitters are overrepresented in the top 20. So you need to look at it statistically. 

• Identify tournaments where the course setups are especially punitive (obviously US Open tracks usually fit the bill). 
• Correlate tournament performance of the whole field against PGA Tour driving distance rankings.
• Identify tournaments where the course setups are not tricked up to be super narrow fairways and super long rough. 
• Correlate tournament performance of the whole field against PGA Tour driving distance rankings.
• Compare the results.
• Potentially, you can also look at things like OWGR of the individual players against the field and correlate whether longer or shorter players do better relative to "expected" performance against the field of competitors on either type of course setup. This would filter out selection bias, such as shorter hitters who choose not to play in certain tournaments because they feel the setups make it impossible for them to contend. It would also help normalize the analysis against disparate strength of field, i.e. a US Open is going to have much higher strength of field than the John Deere. It's more complicated though. 

It's a pretty simple analysis once you agree on the tournaments to be used and get a hold of the data. 

[deadsolid...shank]

4 hours ago, Abh159 said:

Golfers hit it too far, NFL teams pass the ball too much, NBA players shoot too many threes, MLB players hit too many home runs... Just because something is different compared to how it was 40 years ago doesn't mean it's worse. 

 

Can't wait until I'm 80 years old so I can tell all of those future young whippersnappers that everything was better in my day...

And the funny thing is, you will do that. I think it’s inevitable. Happens to all of us. No matter how much a person swears they’ll never be that guy…….

 

But there is good news, you don’t have to wait til you’re 80, it happens much sooner!😀

[Pastit]

9 hours ago, subrew said:

 

This just isn't true.  You can find ball tests on Youtube where they have tested very soft compression balls against the firmer tour level balls.  The really fast swing speed players really over compress the super soft balls, and can lose a good chunk of distance.  Meanwhile, a mid-level swing speed player might actually GAIN distance hitting the soft compression ball, since they also tend to spin less.  At a Tour level, it might mean a Rory or Bryson loses 10-15yds, while a Ian Poulter only loses a couple.

 

Meanwhile, that softer, lower-spinning ball might actually gain distance for a mid-speed 95mph driver shot.  So a bulk of the average joes might pick up a few yards.

 

This even plays out in shots with 7-irons.  A super fast pro hitting a 7-iron can still over compress a soft ball, and lose distance.  Meanwhile a mid speed average Joe can actually gain a few yards with that soft ball (again, because soft balls often spin less.)

 

One of the test even showed the lower compression balls gained distance with full wedge shots (at fast speeds) because of the lower spin.  

 

It is not a purely linear loss between fast and slower players.  There seems to actually be a tipping point that goes from losing distance to gaining distance with respect to club speed, compression etc.  

 

I understand there’s a Prof from the West Midlands, U.K. who has done exhaustive ball-tests for TM. Static testing would be needed of course but I seem to recall the PV1 gave an extra 9 yds for each 3 mph ball-speed gain but just assuming a simple linear model whereas it’s probably curvi-linear as you hint at. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Pastit

[Simpsonia]

16 hours ago, So_Cal said:

100%.  Shot -6 this weekend after not playing for 3 weeks.  Okay I putted lights out but the modern driver/pro V make it all possible.  Irons into 4 of 5 par 5s.  That’s par 68 right off.  Never could have done that years ago.  

 

You keep bringing up your own personal game as if it were somehow relevant. So either you, as a a long hitting plus handicap, probably in the top .5% of all golfers in the world, are trying to say the game is just too damn easy for all golfers and want to be crappy gatekeeper and apply those rules to the millions of short hitting weekend hackers (remember the average amateur driving distance is probably ~220yds) ; OR your concerns are about distance as it relates to competition golf, in which case your personal game is irrelevant unless you're specifically talking about playing local Am tournaments. 

 

When you're playing your own recreational rounds, nothing in the world is stopping you from using an old steel big bertha and commercially available high spinning limited flight golf balls. 

 

Edit: It's hilarious that instead of censoring 4 letter words, the forum now substitutes in the word "crappy" in place. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Simpsonia

[subrew]

6 hours ago, Pastit said:

 

I understand there’s a Prof from the West Midlands, U.K. who has done exhaustive ball-tests for TM. Static testing would be needed of course but I seem to recall the PV1 gave an extra 9 yds for each 3 mph ball-speed gain but just assuming a simple linear model whereas it’s probably curvi-linear as you hint at. 

 

That was in some of the YT videos.  At a fairly fast 120mph driver head swing, the softer compression ball lost something like 6mph in ball speed compared to a PV1, because of the over compression.  So there was a roughly 12yd difference in carry.  But at a 95mph driver head swing, there was essentially zero difference in ball speed, and the lower spin characteristics of the softer ball gained an extra couple yards of carry.

 

 

 

 

[oikos1]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:51 AM, subrew said:

 

That was in some of the YT videos.  At a fairly fast 120mph driver head swing, the softer compression ball lost something like 6mph in ball speed compared to a PV1, because of the over compression.  So there was a roughly 12yd difference in carry.  But at a 95mph driver head swing, there was essentially zero difference in ball speed, and the lower spin characteristics of the softer ball gained an extra couple yards of carry.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm.  Maybe that's why the Callaway Super Soft is the #1 selling golf ball on Amazon.

 

[Pastit]

Bringing in the ladies, sorry in their Swiss major, I notice very few players failed to reach the 18th par 5 in two this week when in the fairway. I’ve followed this event for years, this is a big change either in skill or gear. I know what I put it down to. 

[Titleist99]

46 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Bringing in the ladies, sorry in their Swiss major, I notice very few players failed to reach the 18th par 5 in two this week when in the fairway. I’ve followed this event for years, this is a big change either in skill or gear. I know what I put it down to. 

Did they move the tee box up to entice everyone to go for it? It helps the excitement factor....

[Pastit]

7 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Did they move the tee box up to entice everyone to go for it? It helps the excitement factor....

Possibly but I doubt it, the commentators are rather woolly about such things. The hole was 479yds I think but it was the case that many laid up in the past because of a serious water hazard right of the green right on the length of the old max hit. One or two players even got up with irons this week.
 

Looked like the fairway wood striking has improved enormously. I’ve played in Switzerland, it’s vital to drive to the high side of fairways due to the topography. Only country I’ve played where there’s free relief from OB fences, 

[subrew]

16 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Possibly but I doubt it, the commentators are rather woolly about such things. The hole was 479yds I think but it was the case that many laid up in the past because of a serious water hazard right of the green right on the length of the old max hit. One or two players even got up with irons this week.
 

Looked like the fairway wood striking has improved enormously. I’ve played in Switzerland, it’s vital to drive to the high side of fairways due to the topography. Only country I’ve played where there’s free relief from OB fences, 

 

This morning when I was watching, they said this hole often alternates between being a Par 4 or 5 during the tournament, from year-to-year.  Today it was playing pretty short, as Nelly hit a 5-hybrid on her second shot to within 5 feet.  Several other players they showed were hitting irons too.  

[Pastit]

2 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

This morning when I was watching, they said this hole often alternates between being a Par 4 or 5 during the tournament, from year-to-year.  Today it was playing pretty short, as Nelly hit a 5-hybrid on her second shot to within 5 feet.  Several other players they showed were hitting irons too.  

Thanks, that would explain it but I’ll try and watch tomorrow. I couldn’t figure out how the other Ko lady ( the non- Lydia version ) could make the distance otherwise, though she hit a cracking fairway wood in. 

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

This morning when I was watching, they said this hole often alternates between being a Par 4 or 5 during the tournament, from year-to-year.  Today it was playing pretty short, as Nelly hit a 5-hybrid on her second shot to within 5 feet.  Several other players they showed were hitting irons too.  

Men's and women tournaments are constantly moving tees up.....due to weather or excitement. It's something that's hardly discussed. I've been trying for years to find that stat. If a course is lengthened, they should be prohibited from moving tees up......LOL!

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

Men's and women tournaments are constantly moving tees up.....due to weather or excitement. It's something that's hardly discussed. I've been trying for years to find that stat. If a course is lengthened, they should be prohibited from moving tees up......LOL!

Jim Furyk agrees.

[farmer]

Which balls are considered to be super soft compression?  Back in the 90's (I think) the Precept Ladies was supposed to be soft and sneaky long.

[Titleist99]

LOL!.....3M moving up TEES to make them drivable to entice players to go for it, per Curt Byrum. Courses rarely play the stated yardage.

 

Pgatour and Lpga does this quite often....Distance is not a problem. IMO

[Pastit]

16 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

LOL!.....3M moving up TEES to make them drivable to entice players to go for it, per Curt Byrum. Courses rarely play the stated yardage.

 

Pgatour and Lpga does this quite often....Distance is not a problem. IMO

Seems a bit of a quandary though to be moving up tees in majors whilst decrying equipment advances. I don’t have an issue with making one short par 4 a little shorter. In a Major though, on the last hole ?  Complete joke in the Evian - watered down the hole !! Ha ha. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Pastit