Why is there such contempt for The Rules?

[rogolf]

Let's be square about it - there are two camps.  One camp tries to play by ALL the Rules, and one camp plays by their interpretation of some of the rules.

Both camps enjoy the game, but only one camp has scores that are legit, posted and can be  compared to others.

Edited July 8, 2023 by rogolf

[st1800e]

10 hours ago, Colin L said:

and then take relief from the rocks

please explain

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

Breakfast balls are well within the rules. The round with the first ball was abandoned, and a new round started with the second ball. 

Just need to add 2 to your score 

[Canyonaro]

9 hours ago, Cliffy2020 said:

The overwhelming vast majority of golfers on the planet are casual recreational players.  They’re there to play golf, not golf rules.  It’s a nice walk in the park , whacking a little white ball amongst friends.  Have a laugh, have a cry, have a beer.  It’s a game.

 

Enter My Father...  he likes to play golf rules and he likes to play them with everybody in the group.  He plays on a goat track of a course, plays the ball down everyday, shoots a million and enjoys calling others out.  Yep, he keeps a rules book in his bag too.  He’s that guy.  If your not playing golf by the rules, then you’re not playing real golf.  
 

I haven’t played with him in years?

 

That's like playing basketball with a guy who's constantly trying to take charges and call fouls. This ain't the US Open, pops. Bummer.

 

There's some real absurdities to the rules but that's the nature of a game that's not played on a fixed, unobstructed field of play. We have cart paths, bushes, ponds & sprinkler heads, etc. that create some weird situations. 

 

I think the reason people get up in arms about certain rulings is they're so out of step with other sports. DQ-ing a player for an honest mistake isn't something that happens in any other sport. 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Canyonaro said:

DQ-ing a player for an honest mistake isn't something that happens in any other sport. 

Do you ever watch soccer?

[2bGood]

10 hours ago, rogolf said:

Let's be square about it - there are two camps.  One camp tries to play by ALL the Rules, and one camp plays by their interpretation of some of the rules.

Both camps enjoy the game, but only one camp has scores that are legit, posted and can be  compared to others.

Kind of true. The rules of handicapping are pretty liberal compared to the regular rules of golf. You can break allot of rules and still have a 'legit' score to be posted.

 

I recall a funny exchange I had with a golfer I DQ'd from a competition for breaking a rule and then had to ding him for not posting the score. 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by 2bGood

[Colin L]

 

3 hours ago, st1800e said:

14 hours ago, Colin L said:

and then take relief from the rocks

please explain

 The path is an immovable obstruction from which the player could take relief.  If he did so and the nearest point of complete relief meant that the relief area was on the rock bed, he could then take further relief from the rock bed which Is  in its entirety a single  immovable obstruction.    If he chose to play the ball as it lies in the rock bed after taking relief from the path he could move individual rocks out of the way as each is a loose impediment - with the usual caveat that he mustn't move his ball in the process.    That is what the Rules allow the player to do when there are two contiguous obstructions and when an artificial surface is made of stones/gravel/wood chips or the like.    It says nothing about the practicalities of this particular situation.  

 

Clarification 16.1/2 is helpful

https://www.randa.org/rog/interpretations/rule-16#16_1_2

[klebs01]

7 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Just need to add 2 to your score 

why would I add two? I’ve only hit one shot in the round I’m going to continue playing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

just having a bit of fun. I haven’t hit a breakfast ball in many years. When I did, it was only when the range wasn’t open. It wasn’t something that moved the handicap at all, but a couple older guys at my old club thought it would help them in the fourball game. Fiiine. 

[mshills]

The majority of golfers play for fun and apply some rules some of the the time. 
 

A smaller proportion gets their juice from competing. This is where I fall. 
 

A still smaller proportion does not compete, but are still sticklers for the Rules and their nuances when playing solo or in casual groups. 
 

There’s nothing wrong with any of these types of players. I’ve had half a lifetime in golf and business, and in my experience the “golf as a metaphor for life” is a total myth. I’ve not seen any correlation, ever. Not applying all golf rules doesn’t indicate dishonest business practices, and vice versa. 

[tatertot]

7 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Kind of true. The rules of handicapping are pretty liberal compared to the regular rules of golf. You can break allot of rules and still have a 'legit' score to be posted.

 

I recall a funny exchange I had with a golfer I DQ'd from a competition for breaking a rule and then had to ding him for not posting the score. 

 

I don't understand ... How do you break a lot of rules and still have a legit score to post? I mean, you're only hurting yourself, but still, its not a "legit" score.

[Pepperturbo]

13 hours ago, klebs01 said:

Breakfast balls are well within the rules. The round with the first ball was abandoned, and a new round started with the second ball. 

LOL  Yep, dump your 1st ball OB, tee up your 2nd breakfast ball up, smack it, then ask the rules official how many strokes are tallied in a rules guided stroke event.

[Soloman1]

Professional golfers playing practice rounds before a tournament may be the biggest "cheaters."

 

Apparently the mission of the USGA is keep new people from taking up golf. It's like studying for ground school before learning to fly. Serious game for serious people only. Calling people cheaters doesn't make it a friendly game for newcomers.

 

"Don't do that! That's cheating!"

 

If the USGA was serious (because they're serious people), make 3x5 cards for courses to give people some Level-1, basic rules and etiquette. Let them ease into more pedantic rules gradually.

 

But no, let's call people "cheaters."

 

People should feel grateful they don't have to wear dress shirts and neckties, which I'm sure the USGA would endorse.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Soloman1

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, mshills said:

Not applying all golf rules doesn’t indicate dishonest business practices, and vice versa. 

My father claimed that the worst cheat he came across in years of golf was a retired Sheriff - and in Scotland that means a judge, not  a Wyatt Earp.

[Strategery]

3 hours ago, mshills said:

The majority of golfers play for fun and apply some rules some of the the time. 
 

A smaller proportion gets their juice from competing. This is where I fall. 
 

A still smaller proportion does not compete, but are still sticklers for the Rules and their nuances when playing solo or in casual groups. 
 

There’s nothing wrong with any of these types of players. I’ve had half a lifetime in golf and business, and in my experience the “golf as a metaphor for life” is a total myth. I’ve not seen any correlation, ever. Not applying all golf rules doesn’t indicate dishonest business practices, and vice versa. 

 

^Exactly this.

 

Most people play for fun. Fluff your lies, drop balls, take mulligans, never 3-putt. All totally fine to maximize their enjoyment.

As I've said before, rules exist only to provide a common framework for competition. Seems universal for sports.

[FuzzyDunlop69]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:43 AM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

 

 

Using this photo/situation as an example

 

If someone is keeping score for GHIN or playing you in a $10 Nassau or a beer/dinner bet, and they just drop the ball 4 feet left into that rough, does it really matter?  Not saying a tournament or anything of that nature.  And I say this is someone that always plays by the rules, never take my ball out of a divot, etc.

Edited July 8, 2023 by FuzzyDunlop69

[2bGood]

7 hours ago, tatertot said:

I don't understand ... How do you break a lot of rules and still have a legit score to post? I mean, you're only hurting yourself, but still, its not a "legit" score.

There would be lots of examples but the easiest is the rules of handicapping allow you to not finish the hole once you reach net double bogie. Under the rules of golf in normal strokes play format picking up you ball and not holing out would result in a DQ.

 

The rules of handicapping also let you skip a hole(s) all together, or even take a most likely score on hole to finished and still post a score.

 

The thing is if you are following the rules of handicapping you should not be 'hurting yourself' as the handicap rules tells you the score to post and it no going to exceed your max, most likely or net par depending on the circumstances. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by 2bGood

[smashdn]

6 hours ago, FuzzyDunlop69 said:

Using this photo/situation as an example

 

If someone is keeping score for GHIN or playing you in a $10 Nassau or a beer/dinner bet, and they just drop the ball 4 feet left into that rough, does it really matter?  Not saying a tournament or anything of that nature.  And I say this is someone that always plays by the rules, never take my ball out of a divot, etc.

 

If the stakes are such that you are willing to break The Rules, why would the other person not be willing to take the penalty or concede the hole?  You can take relief, but not free relief.  Call it unplayable and take back of line or replay the previous shot.

 

You can't agree to waive The Rules.

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

If the stakes are such that you are willing to break The Rules, why would the other person not be willing to take the penalty or concede the hole?  You can take relief, but not free relief.  Call it unplayable and take back of line or replay the previous shot.

 

You can't agree to waive The Rules.

You can as long as you also agree to waive the Rule that says you can't agree to waive the Rules.

 

[Hawkeye77]

If I had a nickel for all the yohos who think they are following the rules and want to impose "line of flight", lol.  

[Naptime]

I would say frustration rather than contempt.

 

I think there is a feeling (obviously not universal) that golf rules have gone so far in the weeds that one needs to be a Biblical scholar crossed with a Federal judge to interpret them. And scholars and judges disagree frequently, hence the existence of many Bible based religions and Federal courts of appeal.

 

The recent thread over Rory's drop is an example. If a referee onsite can't get it "right" and if people continue to debate it for days that's hardly an endorsement for rules.

 

At some point efficient play comes into the picture. If the foursome in front spends 10 minutes adjudicating some issue before returning to the tee to hit 3, it just makes for a long day.

 

I think there is a myth that we play the same game as the pros.  Hence the bifurcation issues with golf balls etc. The reality is a minuscule percentage of us wouldn't be totally embarrassed out there.  They have referees on site and huge galleries that markedly reduce the frequency of losing balls.

 

As long as the players in the match have agreed on the rules of their match and play by them, it's a fair match. If course conditions are poor they all play the same course.

 

 

 

[teejaywhy]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:30 AM, smashdn said:

... people just get downright hateful when it comes to The Rules.  Is it a lack of understanding or appreciation?  ...

YES.

 

I think what is not understood or appreciated is one of the basic premises of the game, detailed in RULE #1 (as in, like... the first rule...)

 

"For each stroke, the player:

Plays the course as they find it, and

Plays the ball as it lies."

 

Pretty simple.  In any situation you encounter on the golf course, go back to this rule and be assured that you will make the right decision.

 

But then there is this:

 

"But there are exceptions where the Rules allow the player to alter conditions on the course and require or allow the player to play the ball from a different place than where it lies."

 

This verbiage did not exactly appear in the original rules of golf.  But over the years, quite a few exceptions have been added  (credit, I believe, to the growth of medal play - but that's another topic...) 

 

Problem brought to the modern game and the general topic at hand: 

   So many exceptions have been added, with relief options widespread, that now the automatic expectation is for free relief for any situation that is deemed to be "unfair."   And for some, that creates a contempt toward the rules.

 

And then, there is the general issue of entitlement.   But I'll hold that thought.  😎

 

[davep043]

3 hours ago, teejaywhy said:

This verbiage did not exactly appear in the original rules of golf.  But over the years, quite a few exceptions have been added  (credit, I believe, to the growth of medal play - but that's another topic...)

I agree that the growth of stroke play has required changes to the Rules.  But many of the changes reflect the games expansion to areas with widely different climate, topography, and geology.  Many have occurred based in modern advancements like artificial roads and paths, artificial drains and sprinklers, improved maintenance, improved agronomy.  In short the Rules developed in the 1700s to address competitions at individual courses, mostly in very similar ground conditions, needed to adapt to the rest of the world, and to 350 years or more of advances in technology.

A simple example, the right to repair ball marks on the putting greens occurred right around 1960, as irrigation was getting better (softer greens) and mowers were getting better (smoother faster greens).  A reasonable expectation of a smooth roll leads to the repair of ball marks.  Richard Tufts wrote an article for the USGA journal at that time, wondering of Golf had gotten "too soft".

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:01 AM, SNIPERBBB said:

They arent there to play golf, they're there to do a golf-like activity and escape the wife and kids for however long they told the aforementioned it would take to play.

 

“There's only one question left to ask. Who won? And what was the ... game anyway?”
James McAvoy - David Percival

 

Hey, that's TWO questions!

 

 

 

Or was the first one a breakfast question?

[bobfoster]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:37 PM, rogolf said:

Let's be square about it - there are two camps.  One camp tries to play by ALL the Rules, and one camp plays by their interpretation of some of the rules.

Both camps enjoy the game, but only one camp has scores that are legit, posted and can be  compared to others.

I would agree that only rounds played by the full RoG are legit for tournament or handicap purposes, but that's an incredibly small number of the rounds of golf every year. (2022 - last full year stats - there were around 25 - 26 million golfers in the US, slightly over three million even bothered to keep a formal USGA handicap.)

 

I don't agree with the binary, either/or categories. I know the strict RoG. For years I had a handicap, played by the rules and religiously entered scores (i.e., I neither had a vanity cap, nor a sandbagger cap - I had a legitimate Handicap Index). At this point I'm 65. Only tournaments I play in these days are charity tournaments, and I could care less who wins. I play for fun, and while I do "compete", it is solely against myself. Goal every round is to beat my last round. Play with a wide variety of people, from good golfers who play strictly by the rules, to not so good golfers that probably don't even know all the rules (or care very much). I'm indifferent to how anyone else plays, so long as they enjoy doing it. 

 

I do play by the rules - because I myself take pleasure in them. A great score has a lot more meaning when I do. That said, yes, I do still putt even two footers (even though I'll only miss one every few years), but I do sometimes pick up 4 inchers. If I land in soil with a lot of rocks due to course construction or something, I'll move the ball to grass. I've seen pros hit it from the cart path when there seems no where to drop that is remotely reasonable. I won't - I'll move it to grass, even if it is a yard closer to the hole. The pros don't pay for clubs. But I'm not going to hit new Mizzy irons off cement. If I think I can find a drive and don't hit a provisional - I'm not going to walk all the way back to the tee box if I can't find it (anyone that did that on a busy weekend course would get loudly - and rightly - cursed by the foursomes behind them). 

 

But if there are only "two camps", I suppose I'm in the second. No difference between me and the many guys I play with that take multiple mulligans, have perfected foot wedges, say six feet is a gimme, and score getting out of a trap as one stroke (even if it takes them three). In fact, I play with a lot of friends that are decent golfers, and do keep handicaps, and I often find myself playing by stricter adherence to the rules than they do. Just because someone has a cap doesn't mean they don't play a bit fast and loose with the rules now and then. A lot do. 

 

On the whole, if those are your two camps, I'd say probably less than 5% of the rounds played in the US today were actually really played by "ALL" the rules of golf. That level of perfection mostly exists in a conceptual world. In practice, there are a huge number of meaningful rules gradients. From "don't know, don't care", to "know some, don't care", to "know some, starting to care", to "know a lot, only care when something is on the line", to "know most, but this is kind of a practice round and my buddies are drinking", to "know most, care a lot, but good grief it's a busy Saturday, we have an entire hole in front of us 'cause we've been slow, so I'm not going through my entire putting routine for a three foot putt", to that final almost Platonic ideal: "I know all the rules, I've paid for and attended the PGA/USGA sponsored Rules Workshops, and I always play by them, regardless of who I'm playing with, or what is happening on the course."

 

PS. Not dissin' on you rogolf - genuinely respect your perspective. Just have a different one. 

[bobfoster]

3 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Hey, that's TWO questions!

 

 

 

Or was the first one a breakfast question?

Ha! I think you got that slightly wrong dude - if you're referring to Finding Forrester (love that movie). The actual quote is "Is that a soup question?" 😅

[rogolf]

51 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

I would agree that only rounds played by the full RoG are legit for tournament or handicap purposes, but that's an incredibly small number of the rounds of golf every year. (2022 - last full year stats - there were around 25 - 26 million golfers in the US, slightly over three million even bothered to keep a formal USGA handicap.)

 

I don't agree with the binary, either/or categories. I know the strict RoG. For years I had a handicap, played by the rules and religiously entered scores (i.e., I neither had a vanity cap, nor a sandbagger cap - I had a legitimate Handicap Index). At this point I'm 65. Only tournaments I play in these days are charity tournaments, and I could care less who wins. I play for fun, and while I do "compete", it is solely against myself. Goal every round is to beat my last round. Play with a wide variety of people, from good golfers who play strictly by the rules, to not so good golfers that probably don't even know all the rules (or care very much). I'm indifferent to how anyone else plays, so long as they enjoy doing it. 

 

I do play by the rules - because I myself take pleasure in them. A great score has a lot more meaning when I do. That said, yes, I do still putt even two footers (even though I'll only miss one every few years), but I do sometimes pick up 4 inchers. If I land in soil with a lot of rocks due to course construction or something, I'll move the ball to grass. I've seen pros hit it from the cart path when there seems no where to drop that is remotely reasonable. I won't - I'll move it to grass, even if it is a yard closer to the hole. The pros don't pay for clubs. But I'm not going to hit new Mizzy irons off cement. If I think I can find a drive and don't hit a provisional - I'm not going to walk all the way back to the tee box if I can't find it (anyone that did that on a busy weekend course would get loudly - and rightly - cursed by the foursomes behind them). 

 

But if there are only "two camps", I suppose I'm in the second. No difference between me and the many guys I play with that take multiple mulligans, have perfected foot wedges, say six feet is a gimme, and score getting out of a trap as one stroke (even if it takes them three). In fact, I play with a lot of friends that are decent golfers, and do keep handicaps, and I often find myself playing by stricter adherence to the rules than they do. Just because someone has a cap doesn't mean they don't play a bit fast and loose with the rules now and then. A lot do. 

 

On the whole, if those are your two camps, I'd say probably less than 5% of the rounds played in the US today were actually really played by "ALL" the rules of golf. That level of perfection mostly exists in a conceptual world. In practice, there are a huge number of meaningful rules gradients. From "don't know, don't care", to "know some, don't care", to "know some, starting to care", to "know a lot, only care when something is on the line", to "know most, but this is kind of a practice round and my buddies are drinking", to "know most, care a lot, but good grief it's a busy Saturday, we have an entire hole in front of us 'cause we've been slow, so I'm not going through my entire putting routine for a three foot putt", to that final almost Platonic ideal: "I know all the rules, I've paid for and attended the PGA/USGA sponsored Rules Workshops, and I always play by them, regardless of who I'm playing with, or what is happening on the course."

 

PS. Not dissin' on you rogolf - genuinely respect your perspective. Just have a different one. 

Agree that there are subsets of the camp that chooses not to play by all the Rules.

[North Butte]

If a group's own "subset" isn't acceptable to you, the best thing to do is just not play with them. 

 

I've posted in the past about an experience 10 years ago when I tried playing a couple times with a group whose "subset" was pretty hilarious. I'm not talking about just rolling/fluffing the ball on every shot. I mean when they lose a ball in the woods, just toss one into the fairway with no penalty at all and proceed to play as though the lost ball never happened.

 

Once I sussed out just how preposterous their "Rules" (and therefore their "handicaps") were I never played with them again. But the funny thing was, it was still a game that quite closely resembled golf as I know it. Don't get me wrong, they had single-digit "handicaps" who routinely lost 3, 4, 5 balls in a round but posted scores around 80. And their "subset" was so generous you really didn't need to worry about ever making a 7 or 8 on a hole (for instance they didn't count third putts, putting was only to see if you made the first one). Crazy stuff.

 

But hey, they'd been playing like that twice a week for years and they all seemed to have a good time. I really don't think their version of having fun at the golf course was illegitimate. They were perhaps mis-appropriating the word "Golf" to some extent but what else would you call a game where you hit a golf ball with golf clubs on a golf course? Pace of play was pretty brisk too, since nobody ever looked for a ball or had to play out of a bad lie.

 

Another advantage, if you want to call it that, was they were able to play an extremely cheap golf course with extremely poor conditions and it didn't matter much. They were going to look around for a nice patch of grass to roll their ball into anyway, so what if there were bare spots and dandelions in the fairway? 

 

IMO there's room for lots of subsets of the Rules. As long as it doesn't involved tearing up the course, holding up the pace of play or endangering anyone it's all good as far as I'm concerned. But I don't actually want to play golf under some of the "subsets" out there, myself.

[Pfish]

I play golf about 5 or 6 times a week but a couple of times a week I play with the same 4 to 8 people. On those days it’s just for exercise and companionship.  We play on these days just against ourselves, no game, no money.  I would say 75% of this group play by nearly all the rules including putting out to the bitter end thinking it’s good practice for competitions.  (It’s also good for keeping a reality based handicap).  We play fast so the putting out etc. doesn’t hold up anything. I think it’s because we play ready golf, watch each other’s ball flight, stop talking and hit, and all the things slow golfers don’t do to keep up the with group in front.  We hit provisional balls, play the ball as it lies and all the rest. When we come to a weird situation that the rule stumps us we look it up in detail later.  25% of the people are more lax and will get comments like you’ve been playing how many decades and don’t know that?  They are the ones in the group who never seem to be on their game in competitions since they typically never have to think about short putts.  I think some people would like to know the rules but never get around to putting in the effort to learn them very well.  

[jdl]

Thinking of the groups I play with, there's pretty much 3 groups:

 

First is the better players that have a pretty good grasp of the rules and play by them to the best of their abilities. Probably don't know all of the cases that may have a rule you'd have to look up in the "decisions" sections but for the most part they're playing by the rules.

 

Second is the largest group that know the very basics but also seem to have the view that the rules are too penal and have this overall sense of "fairness" that they want to apply. "Oh that's not right that your ball ended up there, you should just move it", etc. One guy is very adamant about declaring his own "GUR" areas on the fly. And they like to play preferred lies all the time "because we don't play on perfect courses like the pros do". I haven't found that part in the rule book yet. 😁

 

Then there's my Friday league partner who thinks the rules can never help you. I can think of 3 or 4 times when a legal drop would actually improve his situation but he wouldn't hear of it. Once his ball ended up on a sprinkler head in the fringe near the green. The relief would have allowed him to actually have the ball end up on the green, but...nope! "That's cheating!". Or another time when he insisted on playing out of a marked GUR area near a bunker instead of dropping on the fairway. Sigh.

[smashdn]

This has drifted a little from my intention and that is fine, but just wanted to reiterate the question is not why don't golfers play by The Rules, I get that and the myriad of reasons why someone may not want to.

 

But why in the world do people with no skin in the game get so bent out of shape when a professional (and most of the time it is a pro in a tournament) are penalized under The Rules?  The deal with the rangefinder leading to a DQ, nonconforming putter grips leading to DQ, repairing aeration holes, etc.  Those all got people up in arms on the socials when posted.