What up with Jordan?

[tsecor]

Maybe he is adjusting to married life and doesn't have the time to practice as much.....maybe golf is just the hardest sport in the universe.....

[bladehunter]

I still suspect that the breakthrough is near. What that will be ? I don’t know. Something is going to happen. No doubt about it. Good or bad. Won’t go on like this.

 

Bad would be a caddie firing. Good maybe a coach firing. My opinion.

[gvogel]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > OR you can go back to this parallel. Ben Crenshaw. He came out on the tour with average length and great putting prowess. He was the next big thing and won the Masters in 1984. Then he played well sporadically - I remember seeing him play in Canada on a satellite tour - winning an occasional tournament then and there and finished with a bang winning the Masters again in 1995. He didn't have the long game to put together with his brilliant putting to be the dominant major player that you all see in Jordan Spieth.

>

> He was the next big thing out of college and won his first event on tour as I recall. He won 19 times on tour and is in the hall of fame. When did he ever play a satellite tour?

 

Might have been the Canadian PGA championship - not a tour event. He struggled for awhile after his divorce.

[rafal]

> @bladehunter said:

> I still suspect that the breakthrough is near. What that will be ? I don’t know. Something is going to happen. No doubt about it. Good or bad. Won’t go on like this.

>

> Bad would be a caddie firing. Good maybe a coach firing. My opinion.

 

Both need to go. The caddie enables the manchild routine on the course, he needs someone to shut him up and Grellar can't.

[North Texas]

> @rafal said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > I still suspect that the breakthrough is near. What that will be ? I don’t know. Something is going to happen. No doubt about it. Good or bad. Won’t go on like this.

> >

> > Bad would be a caddie firing. Good maybe a coach firing. My opinion.

>

> Both need to go. The caddie enables the manchild routine on the course, he needs someone to shut him up and Grellar can't.

 

Is it just your opinion that Grellar enables Spieth or do you have specific numerous examples where you have witnessed it? If you have seen it, tell us about it. And be specific. Thanks.

[North Texas]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > When are you Jordan fans going to come to grips with the fact that the game has passed him by. I could tell you about Bill Rodgers, who played at the highest levels for a few years with a weak grip and a lack of distance. jordan played at an even higher level. But, ultimately, as Bill Rodgers found out, his lack of distance wore him out. Rodgers had a nice run from 1978 t0 1981.

> >

> > Most really good major champions have a run of 4 or 5 years. Only the most gifted golfers have a run longer than that - and those guys have the gift of unnatural, and easy, length off the tee. Nicklaus, Jones, Snead, Hogan, even Tom Watson were very long drivers of the ball. They had staying power.

> >

> > Jordan was a freak due to his single minded preparation and concentration. And other worldly putting for a few years. But he lacks the necessary huge talent that it takes to dominate this game for a long period of time.

> >

> > You guys really need to get over your infatuation with Jordan Spieth. A fine golfer, and dominant for a short period. But probably not a factor going forward.

>

> Lol. He’s far from a short knocker. Swing and miss.

 

Definitely a swing and miss. Jordan is above average in driving distance, 77th out of 207 currently. And only 6 yards behind Justin Thomas! And 5 years ago, he ranked 88th out of 177 in driving distance. So no, the game hasn't passed him by.

[Ferguson]

Jordan needs new clubs.

[disco111]

> @Ferguson said:

> Jordan needs new clubs.

 

I bet that Woodland could hook him up with some new Wilson's

[MidwestGolfBum]

> @bladehunter said:

> I still suspect that the breakthrough is near. What that will be ? I don’t know. Something is going to happen. No doubt about it. Good or bad. Won’t go on like this.

>

> Bad would be a caddie firing. Good maybe a coach firing. My opinion.

 

It seems like he has started to turn the corner, so to speak.

 

Agree, firing Grellar seems like a bad idea. Getting another set of eyes on the swing changes may not be a bad thing, but not sure I would dump McCormick completely. Though, that's my opinion.

[ebrasmus21]

> @disco111 said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > Jordan needs new clubs.

>

> I bet that Woodland could hook him up with some new Wilson's

 

Jordan needs to ditch the shovels in favor of blades. Play golf like a man, YJS. Play real clubs.

[gvogel]

> @"North Texas" said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > When are you Jordan fans going to come to grips with the fact that the game has passed him by. I could tell you about Bill Rodgers, who played at the highest levels for a few years with a weak grip and a lack of distance. jordan played at an even higher level. But, ultimately, as Bill Rodgers found out, his lack of distance wore him out. Rodgers had a nice run from 1978 t0 1981.

> > >

> > > Most really good major champions have a run of 4 or 5 years. Only the most gifted golfers have a run longer than that - and those guys have the gift of unnatural, and easy, length off the tee. Nicklaus, Jones, Snead, Hogan, even Tom Watson were very long drivers of the ball. They had staying power.

> > >

> > > Jordan was a freak due to his single minded preparation and concentration. And other worldly putting for a few years. But he lacks the necessary huge talent that it takes to dominate this game for a long period of time.

> > >

> > > You guys really need to get over your infatuation with Jordan Spieth. A fine golfer, and dominant for a short period. But probably not a factor going forward.

> >

> > Lol. He’s far from a short knocker. Swing and miss.

>

> Definitely a swing and miss. Jordan is above average in driving distance, 77th out of 207 currently. And only 6 yards behind Justin Thomas! And 5 years ago, he ranked 88th out of 177 in driving distance. So no, the game hasn't passed him by.

 

Jordan is giving up an average 15 yards to Dustin Johnson, Gary Woodland and Brooks Koepka, and a little more to McIlroy. That actually means something over 14 holes where driver is in play. And he is more crooked as well averaging 53.6% fairways hit versus over 60% for the guys mentioned. He ranks 182 in total driving. I rest my case.

[bladehunter]

He’s not short. He just lacks the second gear with driver. He hits every other club as long as anybody who is decent.

 

I’m not at all a fan of his swing change. I don’t understand the flatter approach , when his DNA was a straighter leg , closer to the ball , upright move. His hip bend now actually makes me cringe. People play that way. But he didn’t. And there’s no benefit to it. Just puts him farther from the ball , and makes a smaller window to square the face up. Which we see the results of. Also playing a hook. He never played a big hook before. He moved it both ways a small amount. Upright swings tend to do that. McCormick has to be aware of this.

[North Texas]

> @gvogel said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > When are you Jordan fans going to come to grips with the fact that the game has passed him by. I could tell you about Bill Rodgers, who played at the highest levels for a few years with a weak grip and a lack of distance. jordan played at an even higher level. But, ultimately, as Bill Rodgers found out, his lack of distance wore him out. Rodgers had a nice run from 1978 t0 1981.

> > > >

> > > > Most really good major champions have a run of 4 or 5 years. Only the most gifted golfers have a run longer than that - and those guys have the gift of unnatural, and easy, length off the tee. Nicklaus, Jones, Snead, Hogan, even Tom Watson were very long drivers of the ball. They had staying power.

> > > >

> > > > Jordan was a freak due to his single minded preparation and concentration. And other worldly putting for a few years. But he lacks the necessary huge talent that it takes to dominate this game for a long period of time.

> > > >

> > > > You guys really need to get over your infatuation with Jordan Spieth. A fine golfer, and dominant for a short period. But probably not a factor going forward.

> > >

> > > Lol. He’s far from a short knocker. Swing and miss.

> >

> > Definitely a swing and miss. Jordan is above average in driving distance, 77th out of 207 currently. And only 6 yards behind Justin Thomas! And 5 years ago, he ranked 88th out of 177 in driving distance. So no, the game hasn't passed him by.

>

> Jordan is giving up an average 15 yards to Dustin Johnson, Gary Woodland and Brooks Koepka, and a little more to McIlroy. That actually means something over 14 holes where driver is in play. And he is more crooked as well averaging 53.6% fairways hit versus over 60% for the guys mentioned. He ranks 182 in total driving. I rest my case.

 

Well, you did move the goal posts ever so slightly but that's okay because you are correct. His driving sucks.

 

However, his decline in pretty much all of his driving stats, including Total Driving, is an "all of a sudden" development. For example, from 2015 to 2018, there was a gradual decline his Strokes Gained Off the Tee from 15th to 50th. It went from .494 to .271, which is right at 0.9 strokes per tournament he gave up to the field over a 3 year period. In 2019, his SGoT is -.336 which means he is giving up 2.6 strokes to the field in just a one year period.

 

Something happened all of a sudden and it had very little to do with him being a short hitter as his driving distance is his only driving stat that has not gotten worse.

[lowheel]

> @straightshot7 said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > @lowheel said:

> > > > > > > @straightshot7 said:

> > > > > > > ^Tiger never went 1 year in his prime (~1997-2009) without a win. Let alone almost 2 years.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Really not an apt comparison.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Spieth is coming up on 2 years without a win. You can't chalk it all up to swing changes. Swing changes gone terribly wrong maybe.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think he's a great player but you guys make a lot of excuses for him.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > jesus christ... nowhere did i make a Tiger Jordan comparison, thats a ridiculous comparison. I simply pointed out that it was tough for Tiger so its tough for lesser players. Im not making any excuses for Jordan just giving my observations on his swing evolution and struggles. You are correct not all of the winless streak is due to swing changes but a huge bit of it was and thats ok. he made the call to change and tweak and hes living by it. Its a huge risk but its his call.I dont like it because of the timing of it but again his call. Tiger won once in 14 months in 98 and once in 14 months 2004 when he made big changes. Not every one is Tiger and gets it done in that short period of time. I think ive been pretty blunt about his struggles but i also have eyes and see enough flashes to know its trending up. like blade, im not crazy about the flatter swing but maybe it works for him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chill with the language.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm just pointing out that comparing Tiger's swing changes/struggles to Spieth's swing changes/struggles is apples to oranges. Tiger's longest streak of tournaments without a win, during the periods you mentioned: 15.

> > > > > Spieth's current winless streak: 45

> > > > >

> > > > > The "14 months" thing is only because of the off season time spent not playing any tournaments. Tiger never went a season without a win. Every time he went through a swing change period, he proceeded to obliterate everyone the following seasons:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1 win in 1998 followed by 8 wins in 1999 and 9 wins in 2000.

> > > > > 1 win in 2004 followed by 6 wins in 2005 and 8 wins in 2006.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tiger never had a period in his prime where we questioned what was wrong with him. He rebounded quickly from swing changes and proceeded to dominate. Spieth on the other hand has admitted that the swing changes have gone wrong and now he is in a totally different territory. We are now wondering if he will ever recover, which was never the case with Tiger.

> > > > >

> > > > > So comparing his swing struggles to Tiger's is really glass (half) full. I applaud you for your optimism. But we can just as accurately compare Spieth to Padraig Harrington and guys that never recovered from swing changes.

> > > > >

> > > > > I get your point about everyone, even Tiger, struggles through swing changes. What I'm saying is that we are beyond that with Spieth. He's gone past the reasonable period of time for swing changes to qualify as an excuse. Now it's looking like something went seriously wrong or it's partially mental.

> > > >

> > > > its as if you didnt read what i wrote...

> > >

> > > I read it. I'm just pointing out that bringing up Tiger's "struggles" with swing changes hurts your argument if anything.

> > >

> > > Since even with the major changes Tiger made, he never went more than 15 tournaments without winning.

> > >

> > > So Spieth's changes are clearly taking much much much longer to take effect, if that's really the problem.

> > >

> > > I don't see what is not factual about that?

> >

> > If youre repeating yourself then no you didnt read what i wrote. You seem very keen to keep doing it. Ill simply pass on repeating myself over and over.

>

> Nothing I'm saying is inaccurate.

>

> I'm simply pointing out that if Spieth's problems are primarily swing related, they are taking much longer to sort out than other players have taken.

>

> If Spieth knew that changing his swing would have resulted in a ~46 tournament winless streak, I don't think he would have done it.

>

> Even he has expressed extreme frustration and admitted that he's essentially lost and having to re-learn how to play. In other words, this isn't a routine swing change that is on course for success. It's gone drastically wrong. The results show that.

>

> But I'm sorry for trying to have a rational exchange with you. It's clearly not possible.

 

yes very rational...

 

[lowheel]

> @gvogel said:

> OR you can go back to this parallel. Ben Crenshaw. He came out on the tour with average length and great putting prowess. He was the next big thing and won the Masters in 1984. Then he played well sporadically -** I remember seeing him play in Canada on a satellite tour** - winning an occasional tournament then and there and finished with a bang winning the Masters again in 1995. He didn't have the long game to put together with his brilliant putting to be the dominant major player that you all see in Jordan Spieth.

 

this literally never happened... Crenshaw won the masters in his like 12th season on tour. He won 19 times in 24+ seasons...

[lowheel]

> @gvogel said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > OR you can go back to this parallel. Ben Crenshaw. He came out on the tour with average length and great putting prowess. He was the next big thing and won the Masters in 1984. Then he played well sporadically - I remember seeing him play in Canada on a satellite tour - winning an occasional tournament then and there and finished with a bang winning the Masters again in 1995. He didn't have the long game to put together with his brilliant putting to be the dominant major player that you all see in Jordan Spieth.

> >

> > He was the next big thing out of college and won his first event on tour as I recall. He won 19 times on tour and is in the hall of fame. When did he ever play a satellite tour?

>

> Might have been the Canadian PGA championship - not a tour event. He struggled for awhile after his divorce.

 

no he really didnt. he won his first masters during his marriage troubles and threatened at plenty of majors after that. he could have easily won 2 more masters. he won 8 times after his divorce including his last masters.

[lowheel]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @disco111 said:

> > > @Ferguson said:

> > > Jordan needs new clubs.

> >

> > I bet that Woodland could hook him up with some new Wilson's

>

> Jordan needs to ditch the shovels in favor of blades. Play golf like a man, YJS. Play real clubs.

 

some guy just won 4 majors in short order with shovels! I kid i kid

[ebrasmus21]

> @lowheel said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @disco111 said:

> > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > Jordan needs new clubs.

> > >

> > > I bet that Woodland could hook him up with some new Wilson's

> >

> > Jordan needs to ditch the shovels in favor of blades. Play golf like a man, YJS. Play real clubs.

>

> some guy just won 4 majors in short order with shovels! I kid i kid

 

LowHeel, come on.. it’s called “beginners luck”

 

 

I’ve added nothing of substance to this thread. I shall refrain from further posting because there’s actually been a good dialogue going on here.

 

 

[lowheel]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > > @disco111 said:

> > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > Jordan needs new clubs.

> > > >

> > > > I bet that Woodland could hook him up with some new Wilson's

> > >

> > > Jordan needs to ditch the shovels in favor of blades. Play golf like a man, YJS. Play real clubs.

> >

> > some guy just won 4 majors in short order with shovels! I kid i kid

>

> LowHeel, come on.. it’s called “beginners luck”

>

>

> I’ve added nothing of substance to this thread. I shall refrain from further posting because there’s actually been a good dialogue going on here.

>

>

 

Lol were just messing around! on a serious note youd be surprised though most young accomplished teens and college players i teach and see at events dont use blades anymore. They swing hard and use height more now. I dont see many controlled flight shots from those guys, its moonball after moonball. very impressive stuff. look at Hovland guy hits it Jason Day high.its an understandable trend now as these clubs have a way better feel and way more forgiving than they did 10-15 years ago.

[bladehunter]

> @lowheel said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > > > @disco111 said:

> > > > > > @Ferguson said:

> > > > > > Jordan needs new clubs.

> > > > >

> > > > > I bet that Woodland could hook him up with some new Wilson's

> > > >

> > > > Jordan needs to ditch the shovels in favor of blades. Play golf like a man, YJS. Play real clubs.

> > >

> > > some guy just won 4 majors in short order with shovels! I kid i kid

> >

> > LowHeel, come on.. it’s called “beginners luck”

> >

> >

> > I’ve added nothing of substance to this thread. I shall refrain from further posting because there’s actually been a good dialogue going on here.

> >

> >

>

> Lol were just messing around! on a serious note youd be surprised though most young accomplished teens and college players i teach and see at events dont use blades anymore. They swing hard and use height more now. I dont see many controlled flight shots from those guys, its moonball after moonball. very impressive stuff. look at Hovland guy hits it Jason Day high.its an understandable trend now as these clubs have a way better feel and way more forgiving than they did 10-15 years ago.

 

It’s the debil!!!!

[mosesgolf]

Well if JS is yelling at Greller you know he is frustrated. So fickle this game. In the not too distant past Rory was the dude, then Jordan, then Jason Day, then Justin Thomas and now BK. Will the true Tiger successor please stand up (BK for now).

[PowerFade36]

"Doesnt hit it good enough to contend"

Swing change "gone drastically wrong"

Hyperbole much? ...He finished T3 at the PGA Championship a month ago.

[North Texas]

> @mosesgolf said:

> Well if JS is yelling at Greller you know he is frustrated. So fickle this game. In the not too distant past Rory was the dude, then Jordan, then Jason Day, then Justin Thomas and now BK. Will the true Tiger successor please stand up (BK for now).

 

When has Jordan ever yelled at Greller? And where does this crap come from?

[tiderider]

> @lowheel said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > OR you can go back to this parallel. Ben Crenshaw. He came out on the tour with average length and great putting prowess. He was the next big thing and won the Masters in 1984. Then he played well sporadically -** I remember seeing him play in Canada on a satellite tour** - winning an occasional tournament then and there and finished with a bang winning the Masters again in 1995. He didn't have the long game to put together with his brilliant putting to be the dominant major player that you all see in Jordan Spieth.

>

> this literally never happened... Crenshaw won the masters in his like 12th season on tour. He won 19 times in 24+ seasons...

 

that's what i though upon just now reading that comment ... then i fact-checked it on the pga tour's website ... and, yes, it literally never happened ...

[bladehunter]

> @"North Texas" said:

> > @mosesgolf said:

> > Well if JS is yelling at Greller you know he is frustrated. So fickle this game. In the not too distant past Rory was the dude, then Jordan, then Jason Day, then Justin Thomas and now BK. Will the true Tiger successor please stand up (BK for now).

>

> When has Jordan ever yelled at Greller? And where does this crap come from?

 

It’s amazing .... that one is a flat out lie. He hasn’t yelled at anyone.

[toddba11]

> @"North Texas" said:

> > @mosesgolf said:

> > Well if JS is yelling at Greller you know he is frustrated. So fickle this game. In the not too distant past Rory was the dude, then Jordan, then Jason Day, then Justin Thomas and now BK. Will the true Tiger successor please stand up (BK for now).

>

> When has Jordan ever yelled at Greller? And where does this crap come from?

 

Just last week after two mishits, blamed it squarely on his caddie.........it may not have been yelling, but he called him out.....watch the video.......

[MidwestGolfBum]

> @toddba11 said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > > @mosesgolf said:

> > > Well if JS is yelling at Greller you know he is frustrated. So fickle this game. In the not too distant past Rory was the dude, then Jordan, then Jason Day, then Justin Thomas and now BK. Will the true Tiger successor please stand up (BK for now).

> >

> > When has Jordan ever yelled at Greller? And where does this crap come from?

>

> Just last week after two mishits, blamed it squarely on his caddie.........it may not have been yelling, but he called him out.....watch the video.......

 

You talking about 8 when Jordan went into the water and then over the green? Yeah, that wasn't yelling, that was pretty typical of most players letting out their frustration. Part of what a PGA caddie is there for is to take the blame from the player. My source on that is a friend who caddied for a major champion. Greller even said he didn't even remember it after the round. It happens, you're reading into it more than necessary.

[lowheel]

> @toddba11 said:

> > @"North Texas" said:

> > > @mosesgolf said:

> > > Well if JS is yelling at Greller you know he is frustrated. So fickle this game. In the not too distant past Rory was the dude, then Jordan, then Jason Day, then Justin Thomas and now BK. Will the true Tiger successor please stand up (BK for now).

> >

> > When has Jordan ever yelled at Greller? And where does this crap come from?

>

> Just last week after two mishits, blamed it squarely on his caddie.........it may not have been yelling, but he called him out.....watch the video.......

 

a pga tour player called out a caddie!!! thank god my fainting couch was right next to me. you know Tiger literally blamed Steve Williams for losing him the 2011 masters for telling him to hit driver on #3. it happens every week

[Shilgy]

> @lowheel said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > OR you can go back to this parallel. Ben Crenshaw. He came out on the tour with average length and great putting prowess. He was the next big thing and won the Masters in 1984. Then he played well sporadically - I remember seeing him play in Canada on a satellite tour - winning an occasional tournament then and there and finished with a bang winning the Masters again in 1995. He didn't have the long game to put together with his brilliant putting to be the dominant major player that you all see in Jordan Spieth.

> > >

> > > He was the next big thing out of college and won his first event on tour as I recall. He won 19 times on tour and is in the hall of fame. When did he ever play a satellite tour?

> >

> > Might have been the Canadian PGA championship - not a tour event. He struggled for awhile after his divorce.

>

> no he really didnt. he won his first masters during his marriage troubles and threatened at plenty of majors after that. he could have easily won 2 more masters. he won 8 times after his divorce including his last masters.

 

I'll say this about gvogel's comments. Crenshaw in '82 & '85 was awful. Whether it was the divorce or not he really was bad.

[lowheel]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > OR you can go back to this parallel. Ben Crenshaw. He came out on the tour with average length and great putting prowess. He was the next big thing and won the Masters in 1984. Then he played well sporadically - I remember seeing him play in Canada on a satellite tour - winning an occasional tournament then and there and finished with a bang winning the Masters again in 1995. He didn't have the long game to put together with his brilliant putting to be the dominant major player that you all see in Jordan Spieth.

> > > >

> > > > He was the next big thing out of college and won his first event on tour as I recall. He won 19 times on tour and is in the hall of fame. When did he ever play a satellite tour?

> > >

> > > Might have been the Canadian PGA championship - not a tour event. He struggled for awhile after his divorce.

> >

> > no he really didnt. he won his first masters during his marriage troubles and threatened at plenty of majors after that. he could have easily won 2 more masters. he won 8 times after his divorce including his last masters.

>

> I'll say this about gvogel's comments. Crenshaw in '82 & '85 was awful. Whether it was the divorce or not he really was bad.

 

he was bad only 1 year and it was 85.He had a terrible summer if i recall reading a Dan Jenkins article about it but won a couple of times in 86 and 87. he had a great major run at that point something like 5-6 straight top 5s in majors but maybe im off on that