Oems vs Component heads

[greggytees]

I have been using the top 3 component heads for 20 years. I am a design consultant for component companies also. My credentials are top100 club builders, top 100 fitters, top 100 USGTF instructors, top 100 ISSA golf physical trainers. Think that about covers it. I need your opinion on this subject as where the average golfer perceives the overpriced, over advertised, over marketed OEM clubs to the not known non component clubs that have higher tolerances than OEMS,. Iv'e been to the factories in Taiwan & China and have had long conversations with designers and production managers. This is fact.

I would like to pass this information on to you so as to maybe change your perception of OEM clubs as being the only thing viable. Your local club builder, fitter, trainer-coach, has forgot more about the game of golf than any big box, golf club pro shop employee or head pro for that matter will ever know----period. Iv'e been doing this for 26 years. This is no B.S, not selling anything just want to know stuff.

If you are really interested in this subject I can direct you in different directions you never knew.

With this Covid 9 crap or whatever they call it I decided to do this very cool newsletter and relate everything I've been through with component companies and really what the top 3 are about and how they really care about there club builders and how they perceive their product. And especially their customers that use their product.

Going to start newsletter in 2 weeks. Obviously it's free. Please as many as interested ask me as many questions as you want. Remember I am a personal trainer,coach, anything about training just ask.

Greg Todd

Flying Hippos Golf

[email protected]

708-284-2907

 

 

 

[Ivyguy]

Sir, this sounds great as I have been interested in Maltby irons for a little while.... I can still find quality Major ORM used product for good prices, so that's usually where i end up.

[the bishop]

With all respect IDK who you are trying to convince. Most of the regulars here, even those that exclusively play OEM, would understand and acknowledge the quality products that are put out by Wishon, Maltby, Alpha, Nakashima. H*ll, even Hireko. I had my best golf season ever in 2014 playing a bag consisting of mostly Hireko stuff. Reached a low index of 3.1 that year. I can throw a bag of 13 Maltby clubs together right now and go play them no problem. Wonderful stuff. But the average guy I'd bump into on a course playing that stuff would look at it and have no idea what it is. The only people who find that equipment are those that were looking for it to begin with.

[extrastiff]

Yea. . There is a reason Nike sells more than other shoes, and it is not the shoe Quality I’ll tell you that much. People don’t use them because they don’t know a single thing about them. even when I was looking for these companies, finding a fitter with them in stock, as well as the shafts I wanted, was not a task for the average golfer. I Still have a wishhon bendable hybrid That no one is willing to bend lol

 

[cgasucks]

No question the quality of component heads meets or exceeds those made from the major OEMs but their resale value isn't the greatest

[Jeff58]

I would like to read your newsletter. Please count me in.

I have been using the top 3 component heads for 20 years. I am a design consultant for component companies also. My credentials are top100 club builders, top 100 fitters, top 100 USGTF instructors, top 100 ISSA golf physical trainers.

When presenting one’s credentials, the appropriate manner is to present the actual documentation, not by making unsubstantiated statements. In an anonymous forum such as this, anyone can and will claim anything, and the members are generally aware of the environment.

Note also that the statement on your Facebook page concerning adjustable drivers only altering face angle is incorrect.

Best of luck!

[NRJyzr]

 

It can depend on how you look at it. In percentage terms, certain OEM product holds value better, but in dollar terms, it doesn't always ring as true.

A set of 4-GW Maltby TS-1 with DGS can be bought for $600, assembled by GolfWorks. A 4-GW set of P790 can be bought for $1400, using TM's site. I checked 2nd Swing, because it's a fairly easy option for me. An 8 club set of P790 were selling for $899.

In dollar terms, that means you'd need to get only $100 for the GolfWorks set to make that even in pure dollar loss.

[WristySwing]

I'll put myself as a dissenter on this. What top 3 components are you talking about? Maltby, Wishon, Orka? Miura, Kyoei, Seven, Epon? Haywood, New Level, Ben Hogan? Hireko? Pinhawk? There's a million golf clubs out there and everyone understands that marketing matters in everything. I've personally played Maltby clubs and frankly, don't intend to go that route again. I was lucky to sell them for $100 after investing quite a bit more than that in them. They felt harsh and flew no better than anything, and were also out of spec from what they were supposed to be. They are just another mass produced product that is marketed as not being mass produced. The Maltby STi even though it is supposed to be a house design, is clearly some sort of casting house blank. Look at the similarities between the Maltby and this Masterfit M7 head...they are identical in looks and almost identical spec wise.

Maltby STi OS Iron Heads

MASTERFIT GOLF LTDComponents I have used that were of higher quality were always JDM. The specs were extremely tight to what is advertised in terms lie, loft, and head weight right from the factory. Not all components are created equal just like not all OEMs are created equal. If I am to go component I am going to stick to JDM as I think they far surpass anything that has been put out by any of the North American brands like Wishon and Maltby in terms of quality, feel, and tolerances. My opinion of course but I have experience with this as well.

[bigdane]

Please count me in for your newsletter.

I have for the past 40 years been building component clubs for customers, friends, and myself (even though I am playing a 21 year old set of Hogan Apex myself).

Sadly Golfsmith is no longer with us, nor is Dynacraft as an individual firm, but there are so may first class components out there, and why settle for something of lesser quality, just because they are "OEM"?

 

[BIG STU]

OP I agree with you 110% on component heads as long as they are quality heads. On quality heads I lean towards Wishon and KZG. Another thing you will get argument on is a lot of people do not realize that the shaft is the engine that drives the whole thing. when we had the golf shop we have built some not as good quality heads with good shafts ( we got on closeout) that hit good. Part of that was properly matching the shaft to the player. But yep you and I think alike FWIW--- Carry on looking forward to your articles

[Howard_Jones]

One simple question only...what do you consider to be the "Top 3 component brands" and why?

[cgasucks]

Have you ever thought how much the original owner that paid for the Maltby's when it was new at $600 will them them off at the used market? He'll be lucky if he sells it for $300. In reality, it will be more like $100-$200.

[NRJyzr]

 

That's my point. If he sells even for $100, he's breaking even with the theoretical P790s bought new and sold. It doesn't appear the same due to the percentage decrease, but he's out the same money either way.

[Ri_Redneck]

I would also like to get the newsletter and to know the names of those component companies the OP mentioned.

I got involved in clubmaking back in '87 using Dynacraft and Golfsmith heads. Played many Wishon designs from both. I always found that QUALITY component clubheads played just as well, if not better, than the OEM heads of the day. Also, many component heads had custom weight options, such as hosel ports and head ports, designed into the heads. This made custom weighting much easier! I have always liked playing a heavier SW than what most call standard and that was always an issue with stock clubs.

I have since moved to playing OEM heads, but I still custom fit all my clubs using shafts, weighting and grips that you can't always get from OEMs. So, I am on the OPs side when it comes to customization and fitting. As for resale value, It's never been an issue for me. I have to admit that I have never sold a set of my irons. Probably because most people that swing them say they're way too heavy. Since adjustable woods came out, I HAVE resold many of them because they're easy to take back to standard. But I still have all of my older bonded drivers.

Lastly, I guess I'm totally abnormal because I have been aiming the clubface for my entire life. I have heard several times that the average golfer can't accurately aim a putter, much less anything else!. I guess it's because they haven't spent their entire life doing it. I find it as natural as pointing my finger. But as always, opinions vary.

BT

[Sparky14]

I'll confess, I've sold three sets of TS1 or TS2s. Every set sold for $250-$300.

[Charlie1961]

I have older Golfsmith forged blades and they are identical to a set of Titleist 681 that I recently acquired. The heads are the same ,the only difference is the hosel offset is greater on the Golfsmiths. Anyone know any history on these two irons? Same foundry?

[NRJyzr]

28 minutes ago, Charlie1961 said:

I have older Golfsmith forged blades and they are identical to a set of Titleist 681 that I recently acquired. The heads are the same ,the only difference is the hosel offset is greater on the Golfsmiths. Anyone know any history on these two irons? Same foundry?

 

Are you talking about the Professional Grind blades from Golfsmith?  Or one of the earlier models?  I'm guessing earlier, because the Professional Grinds were more MP-33-like, though they predated the 33s.

 

The 681s were largely copies of older Tour Models from Titleist.  Those in turn look to have been very similar to Palmer Standards of the 70s.  Golfsmith could have copied the basic shape for an older blade model, not unlike how the late 90s and early 2000s Walter Hagen labeled blades looked like the Hoffman produced Bailiwick blades, which were very FG51-ish.

 

Couple random thoughts....

 

[Charlie1961]

18 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Are you talking about the Professional Grind blades from Golfsmith?  Or one of the earlier models?  I'm guessing earlier, because the Professional Grinds were more MP-33-like, though they predated the 33s.

 

The 681s were largely copies of older Tour Models from Titleist.  Those in turn look to have been very similar to Palmer Standards of the 70s.  Golfsmith could have copied the basic shape for an older blade model, not unlike how the late 90s and early 2000s Walter Hagen labeled blades looked like the Hoffman produced Bailiwick blades, which were very FG51-ish.

 

Couple random thoughts....

 

yes the professional blades? which foundry

[scooterhd2]

I picked up a Matlby DMB 7 iron with high hopes to replace my Srixon 785 iron set. Love the look. Topline is fantastic. Supposedly, they pack more forgiveness and are better on thin shots which is my most common miss. But they feel harsh. I'm sure the DBM has something to do with that, but I've played Cobra's in the forged tec and cb/mb and it was much better. Ball flight was too low. Turf interaction was subpar. Abandoned plans to build a full set.

 

Obviously, my experience is personal. And theres plenty of people that get on great with Maltby. Maybe a different set would fit me better. But at the end of the day, I bought a set of used 785s 2 years ago for $500, that I could still probably sell for near that. And had I sunk $500 in the DMB experiment, I'd be lucky to get $200 a week later after 1 round and a range session. And that plays a big part in my purchasing decisions. 

[rsballer10]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:29 PM, greggytees said:

I have been using the top 3 component heads for 20 years. I am a design consultant for component companies also. My credentials are top100 club builders, top 100 fitters, top 100 USGTF instructors, top 100 ISSA golf physical trainers. Think that about covers it. I need your opinion on this subject as where the average golfer perceives the overpriced, over advertised, over marketed OEM clubs to the not known non component clubs that have higher tolerances than OEMS,. Iv'e been to the factories in Taiwan & China and have had long conversations with designers and production managers. This is fact.

I would like to pass this information on to you so as to maybe change your perception of OEM clubs as being the only thing viable. Your local club builder, fitter, trainer-coach, has forgot more about the game of golf than any big box, golf club pro shop employee or head pro for that matter will ever know----period. Iv'e been doing this for 26 years. This is no B.S, not selling anything just want to know stuff.

If you are really interested in this subject I can direct you in different directions you never knew.

With this Covid 9 crap or whatever they call it I decided to do this very cool newsletter and relate everything I've been through with component companies and really what the top 3 are about and how they really care about there club builders and how they perceive their product. And especially their customers that use their product.

Going to start newsletter in 2 weeks. Obviously it's free. Please as many as interested ask me as many questions as you want. Remember I am a personal trainer,coach, anything about training just ask.

Greg Todd

Flying Hippos Golf

[email protected]

708-284-2907

 

 

 

 

Component clubs are great - that's how I got started in club building. I'm sure that's how most people did. The reason I switched to building OEM products was that as a lot of the component suppliers started moving away from that business, the options became more limited. They all made great products, quality and value for price was never in question. It's unfortunate that golfsmith went under, I loved their closeout deals on shafts/grips and the snake eyes line.

 

The other reason I moved away from components was that I prefer constant weight taper tip shafts. Parallel shafts are great because (1) shaft does a set, but also they are descending weight - which is not ideal for an iron build.

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, Charlie1961 said:

yes the professional blades? which foundry

 

Afraid I don't know where.  My *guess* would be leaning towards Hoffman, due to their location, and that Golfsmith was in Texas, but it could have been Cornell, if it wasn't already overseas.  

 

Tom Wishon would probably know.  <shrug>

 

[Nessism]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Afraid I don't know where.  My *guess* would be leaning towards Hoffman, due to their location, and that Golfsmith was in Texas, but it could have been Cornell, if it wasn't already overseas.  

 

Tom Wishon would probably know.  <shrug>

 

 

Overseas would be my guess.  Virage Tech possibly.  And agree, Tom would know.  

[TheGolfingRealtor]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:29 PM, greggytees said:

I have been using the top 3 component heads for 20 years. I am a design consultant for component companies also. My credentials are top100 club builders, top 100 fitters, top 100 USGTF instructors, top 100 ISSA golf physical trainers. Think that about covers it. I need your opinion on this subject as where the average golfer perceives the overpriced, over advertised, over marketed OEM clubs to the not known non component clubs that have higher tolerances than OEMS,. Iv'e been to the factories in Taiwan & China and have had long conversations with designers and production managers. This is fact.

I would like to pass this information on to you so as to maybe change your perception of OEM clubs as being the only thing viable. Your local club builder, fitter, trainer-coach, has forgot more about the game of golf than any big box, golf club pro shop employee or head pro for that matter will ever know----period. Iv'e been doing this for 26 years. This is no B.S, not selling anything just want to know stuff.

If you are really interested in this subject I can direct you in different directions you never knew.

With this Covid 9 crap or whatever they call it I decided to do this very cool newsletter and relate everything I've been through with component companies and really what the top 3 are about and how they really care about there club builders and how they perceive their product. And especially their customers that use their product.

Going to start newsletter in 2 weeks. Obviously it's free. Please as many as interested ask me as many questions as you want. Remember I am a personal trainer,coach, anything about training just ask.

Greg Todd

Flying Hippos Golf

[email protected]

708-284-2907

 

 

 

I would definitely play component clubs and do all of my own work. I never really looked into it because what I prefer or what I look for is typically not available left-handed. 

[woodriff]

Remember that JDM, KZG and some of the finer Japanese forged components are unavailable to the club making hobbyist. I’m not certified, and don’t have a ticket, but I’m well read on MOI etc, and have done a multitude of repairs, and have fitted a few. 
I’m interested in the newsletter that the OP offers. I’d like to think that many hobbyists are like myself. 
The elephant in the room is always resale. You don’t see components on the rack of golf shops. Components are knowledge driven, rather than brand driven. 
As a club maker who does not have thousands of dollars of shop equipment there will always be the the good and bad of golf components. Maltby and Wishon are reputable. 
If component manufacturers continue to churn out .431 stainless steel there will be breakage, loft and weight discrepancies. 
I wish everything was carbon steel, or .303 stainless truth be known. 

[Pepperturbo]

@cgasucks made a good point here. "No question the quality of component heads meets or exceeds those made from the major OEMs but their resale value isn't the greatest."

 

This is probably the largest factor in the OEM vs component club secondary market debate.  Joe, nobody, beginner buying a new set of clubs hasn't a clue about clubs to begin with, so manufacturing tolerances means nothing to his decision.  All he may have heard of is an OEM name like TM, Cleveland, Callaway, Titleist, as opposed to a Maltby or Wishon, names he's never heard of with a much cheaper price.  Percentages say he buys something he's heard of.

 

Have I ever bought OEM for resale price, no, but it is a beneficial factor if selling clubs later.  OEM vs component clubs with similar specs and shaft will play similarly.  What this comes down to is choice, maybe how that person feels and want's to be perceived after his purchase, and probably how much money he has to spend on clubs. 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, woodriff said:

 Components are knowledge driven, rather than brand driven. 

That's a great way to describe it

[NRJyzr]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

@cgasucks made a good point here. "No question the quality of component heads meets or exceeds those made from the major OEMs but their resale value isn't the greatest."

 

This is probably the largest factor in the OEM vs component club secondary market debate. 

 

 

When folks talk about resale value, they usually are looking at the percentage hit to the value of the clubs.  Sometimes, that doesn't tell the full story.

 

Brand new set of P790 with Steelfiber i95 shafts, at 2nd Swing, would be $1650 for seven clubs.

Brand new set of Maltby TS1 or TS2 with Steelfiber i95 shafts, would be $764 if you put them together yourself, $834 if you have them build them for you.  Again, for seven clubs.

 

I poked around ebay for an idea of sale prices....   If you use the P790 for a year and sell them for $1,000, you're down about 39%.  If you use the TS2 for a year and look to sell them, let's say you get $250 for them, you're down about 67%.  Looks bad for the Maltby buyer.

 

However, you're down $500 for the Maltbys.  You're down $650 for the TMs.  Doesn't look so bad now.

 

*side note:  I found a sold listing for $250 for Maltby TS-2, 7 clubs, but it was with steel.  I'd guess you could get a few more bucks for a set with Steelfibers, but went with the $250 anyway.  Found P790 listings running from 1150 to 850, felt 1k was OK...

 

[Pepperturbo]

14 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

When folks talk about resale value, they usually are looking at the percentage hit to the value of the clubs.  Sometimes, that doesn't tell the full story.

 

Brand new set of P790 with Steelfiber i95 shafts, at 2nd Swing, would be $1650 for seven clubs.

Brand new set of Maltby TS1 or TS2 with Steelfiber i95 shafts, would be $764 if you put them together yourself, $834 if you have them build them for you.  Again, for seven clubs.

 

I poked around ebay for an idea of sale prices....   If you use the P790 for a year and sell them for $1,000, you're down about 39%.  If you use the TS2 for a year and look to sell them, let's say you get $250 for them, you're down about 67%.  Looks bad for the Maltby buyer.

 

However, you're down $500 for the Maltbys.  You're down $650 for the TMs.  Doesn't look so bad now.

 

*side note:  I found a sold listing for $250 for Maltby TS-2, 7 clubs, but it was with steel.  I'd guess you could get a few more bucks for a set with Steelfibers, but went with the $250 anyway.  Found P790 listings running from 1150 to 850, felt 1k was OK...

 

Interesting, and may be true, except, you're going at it with subject understanding.  Most people buying 2nd hand clubs don't have the knowledge about steel or composite shafts, much less number of clubs, or the desire and time to chase down examples across platforms, and then critically analyze % hit benefits. 

 

Most people don't even do that when spending much more on cars.  My buddy owns an independent bank that finances and leases new and used high-end cars.  He leases a lot more cars to ignorant people, that can't write off the lease for business... but that's another topic.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[deepred]

A couple of things stand out in this thread but mostly it’s those who buy clubs to sell them later vs. those who don’t. We all have some sort of prejudice or pre set notion and then everything feeds that. Having sold cars I saw it everyday, shoppers would come in just to tell us why other cars were better, often to the point of absurdity. 
 

 A few other observations: 

The DBM flew too low! That is the first time in the long history of that design anyone has said that. Most people who are dissatisfied with that head say it’s because it flies too high.

 

Nothing stopping the installation of taper tip shafts in .370 bore heads. Taper tip means just that, the tip is .355 but it tapers to .370 so a simple shim can tighten up the tip. I just assembled a set of Maltby STi2 heads with DG105 shafts pulled from a set of Mizunos. My next set will be the KE4 Tour+ with taper tip TT Lite shafts.

 

Technology, Snake Eyes woods featured Carpenter 455 steel faces 15+ years ago. Maltby has featured easily adjustable weights since the 70’s in one form or another. The Wishon hosel weight port was a simple and very effective way to easily adjust the weight of heads while maintaining the look of the club, even forged heads. 

BTW Golfworks no long charges an assembly fee. 

[ChipNRun]

In 1994, I was a starving college student in Dallas area. My bag golf contained 1971-model MacGregor MT flatsole forged blade irons and circa-1978 MT woods.

 

Cavity-back irons had been around awhile, and I was having trouble breaking 90, so I decided to take the plunge.

 

Went to a small private golf shop in Lewisville. After trying OEM and other irons and comparing prices, I decided to go with a component set of Pro Tour Black irons. The heads were clones of the Ping Eye2, and went for a premium price: $17 a head, as opposed to $12 or so others. Fitter said PTBs were more durable, for someone who played a lot.  I got custom fit for the set, going with TT Dynalite S300 shafts (Dynalite was high-launch cousin of Dynamic Golds).

 

The irons were great! Dropped five strokes off the game in a month. Heads and grooves were great. Grooves would still catch bits of ball cover for first five years of use. And, soles would defeat small pebbles without damage when I played low-rent courses. I often played 30-plus rounds a year, plus quite a bit of practice.

 

I got good results from them until I swapped them out in 2008. Reason: I was in my late 50s, was starting to lose distance with heavier shafts. Further, I had rebuilt my swing with more upright stance. PTB toes starting to drag. Went to Callaways.

 

For component clubs, not all heads are created equal. The Pro Tour white (SGI) and black (GI) were popular heads through Oklahoma and north Texas. Among component clubs, they were a notch above all others for resale.

------------------

PTBs suddenly disappeared from shops about 2000. Rumors had it that Ping sued the company for design infringement, and in the settlement Pro Tour company had to melt down all unsold PT heads and sets.

 

If anyone has details on what happened to Pro Tour manufacturer, please share.