Better player using max forgiveness irons; overkill?

[MaddMaxx]

Long story short; but my question is:

Can a better player be held back by playing a set of iron that are too forgiving?

Too much offset, wide soles, more bounce, big cavity, oversize club head, cast vs forged.

Can any these make my game worse if I try to go overkill on forgiveness?

[Mitchell]

Totally depends upon how you deliver the club into impact, typical conditions faced, and sensitivity to bounce/sole width offset, etc. Play regularly with group of 12 guys that are all 4 or better in handicap and three of them use what would be classified as GI irons because help them reach preferred trajectory windows with good distance and spin for their respective speeds and deliveries. Paging @MtlJeff for more input...?

[Nessism]

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/343089/my-honeymoon-with-sgis

 

[BYK]

If we're talking about you as the player, and if your handicap truly oscillates between 9 and 18, that seems to indicate something about your game is pretty wildly inconsistent?

Maybe forgiveness for you might not be a bad thing in your irons. What's the reason for the swing in scores?

[Nessism]

I'm a huge believer in full sized GI clubs after decades of disbelief. They won't save a bad swing but they will help if your contact point on the club face varies a lot and you aren't biased against them based on appearance. This later part is huge, particularly with guys around here.

[ThreeBoxers]

Use whatever you hit the ball best with. Whatever combo of offset that suits your eye, bounce/sole that jives with how you hit the turf, head size that makes you feel comfortable. For the record, casting/forging has no impact on club performance. They are just methods of manufacturing to shape hot metal. No offense, but if you're between a 9 and 18, unless you're a slow swinger using X100s (or vise versa) clubs aren't holding you back. Take it from someone who's in your handicap range, clubs aren't holding me back...being a shit golfer is.

[MattM97]

If that better player cannot do what they want with the ball then yes those irons will hold them back. But if a good player say single digit handicap is playing GI or SGI irons and can shape the ball or play their shape consistently while hitting the numbers they want then why not play them if it makes the game more enjoyable for them. Some people grew up playing blades or CB's and that's all they know, others might have had some GI irons from when they were a kid so they're more open to it.

[turtsoup]

I'm in the same boat. Currently a 2 handicap but sometimes struggle with consistency of strike. I'm playing Callaway Apex CF19 right now. I hit them very high and a country mile. They are long and fairly forgiving. I did just order a set of MP20 MB that i'm going to stick in the back as i just enjoy playing a blade more. If my scores start to increase or i begin mishits that finish extremely short then i'll make an adjustment but the feel and dispersion of a blade cant be beat in my eyes. i've went back and forth for years and i just enjoy the pure good shots with a blade enough that it doesnt matter that much to me. i feel like i may lose a shot or two every few rounds then who cares. not doing it for money, i'm doing it for my enjoyment, who cares

[CJ17]

The entire point of irons is controlling distance, trajectory, and spin consistently. If you can do that, then it doesn’t really matter the type of irons you have

[GSDriver]

Depends on the player. I've played with low single digit guys who play blades and some who play shovels, all what works for the individual.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

Considering that their are players and players distance irons just as forgiving as some of the big gi irons... yeah i feel it holds most better players back a tad. That being said.. i dont think it destroys your whole golf game.

[ProjectX]

Kenny Perry won 14 times on the PGA Tour with "Game Improvement" irons while hitting nothing but draws. Couldn't hit a fade to save his life and that probably held him back at times maybe even from winning a major. But 14 wins on the PGA Tour and 10 so far on the Champions Tour I would say that's your answer.

[MaddMaxx]

My high handicap is the result of poor putting and a suspect short game.

My miss is to the right (LH player) on approaches. Too much offset?

Occasionally it seems the club bounces into the ball and I get a line drive on mid short irons. Wide sole with too much bounce?

I played an old set of blades and had a good ball striking day and was more accurate but still scored an 82 due to poor putting.

Like someone said whatever works. I am thinking of buying some irons and just trying to narrow down my options.

I need a club with a thinner sole, less bounce, not much offset, midsize head but lots of forgiveness.

Any suggestions?

Ap1, G25, Mizuno JPX forged, Wilson forged,....

I dont want to get a club that is too good for me.

Am I looking for a players distance iron, better players iron, mid handicap iron.? The terminology is part of the problem.

BTW my handicap has settled into the 9 - 10 range.

Thanks to all who replied.

 

[simon1988]

Monty played game improvements irons. Maybe that’s why he didn’t win a major... ?

[ThreeBoxers]

Offset does not cause pulls.

A club will not bounce off the turf and into the ball. Maybe off a mat (which is why mats hide poor strikes), but off grass it will dig into the ground. In this case, bounce is your friend as it will resist digging. My JPX-850 Forged irons have a generously beveled leading edge and it absolutely helps with slightly heavy shots costing me 10-15 yards instead of 30-40.

If you miss thin, a club with a lower CG will be friendlier to maintaining a playable trajectory.

[Valtiel]

Really the only thing that would "hold back" a better player using those types of irons would be the inability to control either spin, trajectory, or distance due to strong lofts, offset, and certain types of face tech. But if they can control their spin/distance and aren't losing strokes on approach caused by the aforementioned, then it is all good really.

[farmer]

A really good player on here, Obee, uses hybrids through the 7 iron. He hovers around +1 to +2.

[Chuck905]

 

I jump back and forth with my ping i210 (2-PW) vs 2018 Callaway Apex MB (2-PW) and I shoot the same score.

Both physical profiles fits what the OP assumes to be players irons with respects to size, sole width and offset for a CB vs blade debate, honestly, I like both iron sets for different reasons which is why I keep both sets.

I like both because they have their merits and place. A lot of the assumptions are muted points when you strike ball first and have control.

[skraly]

Lee Westwood played Ping Zing2’s for several years. Hard to get much more game improvement than those. Didn’t seem to hold him back at all.

[MtlJeff]

first, the idea that every scratch player or thereabouts works it both ways consistently is in my experience a myth. Many play their stock shot 98% of the time

Second even if you want to work it you can with SGI. I play a pretty big draw and can hit it with Apex pros or G410s.

They dont hold you back if you don't mind looking at them

[North Butte]

It's so far above my skill level I can only speculate but I'd reckon a good player whose game involves frequently "flighting" iron shots lower than his natural trajectory might find that the game improvement irons are working against that to a certain extent. I mean generally that type of club is built to maximize height of shots.

That's the only real reason other than personal preference or visual appeal for a good player to avoid that style of club. There's not much way a bigger clubface and higher MOI is going to do any harm, as far as I can tell.

[Juice1121]

It's all about optimizing the numbers for your swing. If you're a low handicap you probably have a pretty repeatable swing. At that point, in my opinion, it is about the following things in order of importance:

1) Finding something you like the look of down by the ball

2) Distance gapping between clubs

3) carry distance ( i am including distance control in this)

4) angle of decent

5) spin

6) launch angle

You can make tweaks to shaft options and the ball to alter your numbers and dispersion by a few degrees after settling on something.

[Red4282]

Harder to work the ball, and flight. So yes it can hold you back, but at the same time it may not. Not everyone needs that or wants that.

[PunkGolfWRX]

Yes!!

I’ve gone to Epic Forged from CF16 and have lost my feel with irons. Yes, each club has gone up 15 yards in distance due to the jacked lofts but I’m hitting it lower with less spin and a straight forward short iron shot I’d have expected to knock in close is now a bit of lottery. Will stick with them to see if I can develop some feel but chances are I’ll be looking for a players set for next year.

[vamosjackets]

@MaddMaxx I'm very similar to you. My ball striking is usually up there with the best (with an occasional frustrating off day), but my short game and putting can be horrendous, which is why I should be shooting in the 70's but am usually shooting somewhere in the 80's. I've always played a GI iron ... I've had the old mid-90's big bertha irons for 25 years and they still perform great. BUT, I've been looking for new irons just because ... most of the golfing world seems to be telling me I'm supposed to?
I've gone through a few fittings and here's what I've found so far. The Mavrik Pro iron is really good for me. It seems to tick most of the boxes of what you said you think might be good for you:
"I need a club with a thinner sole, less bounce, not much offset, midsize head but lots of forgiveness."
Mavrik Pro has very little offset, is a sexier/more compact head, not think or clunky, good turf interaction, seems to just want to be struck pure in the middle ... but it also seems to have really good forgiveness on that occasional off-center strike. Plus, they feel really good, buttery ... they feel better than several of the forged heads I tried.
The Ping i500 was second place for me (along with my old set of BB's) and the Apex forged was probably third. I really wanted to like the Mizuno MP20 HMB and JPX 919 Forged but didn't get on with them for some reason. I would still like to try the Apex Pro's and the Wilson D7 forged and maybe something from Titleist (never tried them for some reason) ... but, there's still something about the pure blades I'd still love to just try them for a month just to see what it would be like ... I tried the Ping Blueprints in the bay one day and seemed to get on really well with them.
I would also say that something often overlooked with irons is that the shaft matters a lot too. Some shafts are just way easier to hit than others. There is such a thing as a "forgiving" iron shaft and also a spec for weight/flex that will fit your swing just like for a Driver, though perhaps a little more subtle. For me personally, I get on best with a graphite/steelfiber in the 80-100 gram range, stiff flex (though regular flex does surprisingly pretty well too). And, it has nothing to do with strength. I hit the Mav Pro 7I 200-210 yards and have a Driver speed around 115. It may have to do with the simple fact that the big bertha irons I got 25 years ago in the 8th grade had the old RCH 96 graphite shafts in there and so it's just what my body rhythm learned to be set on. Either way, my numbers and dispersion were just better every time with those shafts ... just better performance with less effort.
Good luck and keep us updated on your discoveries.

[bsavy83]

Im 37 and started playing at age 8. Handicap around 3. I have never used a game improvement iron. I have certainly been tempted but for me there is a lack of feedback. To me irons are all about feedback. Without it you are grooving a bad swing. I heard some pro way back in the day say he spent all winter hitting into a net in his garage and the shots felt great. Gets outside that spring and realized he spent 3 months grooving a duck hook. Thats why i like an iron with feedback. I know what im doing wrong so i can stop.

[North Butte]

Never having used game improvement irons you wouldn't have any way to know this but it is 100% totally and completely obvious when you put a hook swing or a slice swing or catch it 1/2" toward the toe using a big, cavity backed iron. The ball won't go as short or as far offline on mishits as with your blades but it's still going to hook or slice or affect the distance and trajectory when you mishit one.

People in these discussions often attribute magical powers to "game improvement" clubs. There's no such thing as a club which makes poor contact indistinguishable from good contact to the guy who just hit the shot. They don't exist and USGA would probably outlaw them if they did.

[nsxguy]

So you're saying that had YOU done the same thing with a blade you would have KNOWN you were "grooving a duck hook" ?

That's just good comedy !!! LOL

[bsavy83]

Duck hook is an extreme example... but... yeah. I would.

[nsxguy]

So you know better than the Pro ?

Kewl.