Anyone hit any 2021 drivers already?

[Gary Gutful]

3 hours ago, The Mad Bomber said:

Isn't it though?

If we can agree that every head produced from every manufacturer has a maximum amount of deflection it can withstand before it deforms (caves/breaks), then it's reasonable to assume that each manufacturer, through design and face thickness, has a minimum amount of force required to achieve that maximum deflection and get maximum "spring like effect". That's into the minutia of it, but so is 1 mph of ball speed or a couple hundred RPM's on a launch monitor.

 

I've caved in/cracked/destroyed 4 TaylorMade club heads since the introduction on M1/M2. I've never caved in a single Titleist club head in my life (playing them since the 975). That tells me that it would take less force to get maximum spring-like effect from a TaylorMade head, and I'd have to guess it would be because the Titleist face is just thicker.

 

For the open record, I'm not a club designer, but different amounts of force will cause different amounts of deflection and I'd love to see the math if I'm wrong on that one.

All you've done there is suggest that a Taylormade could be faster than a Titleist (which I am not sure is true in any case).

 

Assuming similar strike patterns and delivery numbers, the Titleist with the thicker face isn't going to have better ball speeds for high swing speeds when compared to low swing speeds.

 

[pinhigh27]

5 hours ago, The Mad Bomber said:

Isn't it though?

If we can agree that every head produced from every manufacturer has a maximum amount of deflection it can withstand before it deforms (caves/breaks), then it's reasonable to assume that each manufacturer, through design and face thickness, has a minimum amount of force required to achieve that maximum deflection and get maximum "spring like effect". That's into the minutia of it, but so is 1 mph of ball speed or a couple hundred RPM's on a launch monitor.

 

I've caved in/cracked/destroyed 4 TaylorMade club heads since the introduction on M1/M2. I've never caved in a single Titleist club head in my life (playing them since the 975). That tells me that it would take less force to get maximum spring-like effect from a TaylorMade head, and I'd have to guess it would be because the Titleist face is just thicker.

 

For the open record, I'm not a club designer, but different amounts of force will cause different amounts of deflection and I'd love to see the math if I'm wrong on that one.

No this is not true. 
 

don’t you think if this were true the LD guys would try to get heads that deform the most as possible and use them and not care about durability ? There’s literally no evidence of this 

[bladehunter]

5 hours ago, The Mad Bomber said:

Isn't it though?

If we can agree that every head produced from every manufacturer has a maximum amount of deflection it can withstand before it deforms (caves/breaks), then it's reasonable to assume that each manufacturer, through design and face thickness, has a minimum amount of force required to achieve that maximum deflection and get maximum "spring like effect". That's into the minutia of it, but so is 1 mph of ball speed or a couple hundred RPM's on a launch monitor.

 

I've caved in/cracked/destroyed 4 TaylorMade club heads since the introduction on M1/M2. I've never caved in a single Titleist club head in my life (playing them since the 975). That tells me that it would take less force to get maximum spring-like effect from a TaylorMade head, and I'd have to guess it would be because the Titleist face is just thicker.

 

For the open record, I'm not a club designer, but different amounts of force will cause different amounts of deflection and I'd love to see the math if I'm wrong on that one.

I’m not trying to be contrary.  But.  I was just about to respond in agreement to your response to me above , and then I read the rest of the posts.  This one ^ contradicts your response to me above ,no?     As well as provide a suggestion  that titleist heads are just as fast if hit in the pinpoint tiny  sweet spot they have. ( your words ) . 
 

let’s look at it in a broader view.   915 series.  The 915 d2 was known as one of the most forgiving heads made at the time.  And the 910 d2 before that . This discounts  the small  sweetspot theory.  I’d say they are built for forgiveness ( accuracy ) and not speed.  I played a 915d4 for a bit.  It really wasn’t harder to hit than other things.  It just didn’t stand up to the m1 when it came out.  The m1 430 was simply a beast off the face.  
On the flip side.  915f and FD were then and still both known as some of the hottest fairway woods ever made.  I played a 915f 13.5 head with a whiteboard 83x at the time.  It was actually as long as the 915d2 I tried to like.  So I don’t think it’s a “ titleist bias “ thing that’s causing the reputation.  It’s not that people hate the brand snd want to discredit them.  Half my bag ( including the bag )  is their brand now.  Best irons I’ve ever owned.  But ..... if the driver is slower.  I’m going to say so.  
 

fingers crossed , I may just be able to get a tsi3 head today to take home ( without buying it yet ) so I can test on my own range the way I’ve tested others.  If I can I’ll report the truth of what I find.  
 

 

[bogeypro]

Not all drivers use the same face material or design.  Therefore, it isn't unreasonable to think that each one can provide different ball speed when being swung at the same speed.  

[bladehunter]

28 minutes ago, bogeypro said:

Not all drivers use the same face material or design.  Therefore, it isn't unreasonable to think that each one can provide different ball speed when being swung at the same speed.  

Right.  And can also depend on strike location.  Some drivers do not respond well to my high on the face miss.  Some actually come out higher and less spin up there ( sldr )    So that also plays a factor.  

[The Mad Bomber]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I’m not trying to be contrary.  But.  I was just about to respond in agreement to your response to me above , and then I read the rest of the posts.  This one ^ contradicts your response to me above ,no?     As well as provide a suggestion  that titleist heads are just as fast if hit in the pinpoint tiny  sweet spot they have. ( your words ) . 
 

let’s look at it in a broader view.   915 series.  The 915 d2 was known as one of the most forgiving heads made at the time.  And the 910 d2 before that . This discounts  the small  sweetspot theory.  I’d say they are built for forgiveness ( accuracy ) and not speed.  I played a 915d4 for a bit.  It really wasn’t harder to hit than other things.  It just didn’t stand up to the m1 when it came out.  The m1 430 was simply a beast off the face.  
On the flip side.  915f and FD were then and still both known as some of the hottest fairway woods ever made.  I played a 915f 13.5 head with a whiteboard 83x at the time.  It was actually as long as the 915d2 I tried to like.  So I don’t think it’s a “ titleist bias “ thing that’s causing the reputation.  It’s not that people hate the brand snd want to discredit them.  Half my bag ( including the bag )  is their brand now.  Best irons I’ve ever owned.  But ..... if the driver is slower.  I’m going to say so.  
 

fingers crossed , I may just be able to get a tsi3 head today to take home ( without buying it yet ) so I can test on my own range the way I’ve tested others.  If I can I’ll report the truth of what I find.  
 

 

Hopefully you get your head, looking forward to what you find!

[The Mad Bomber]

3 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

No this is not true. 
 

don’t you think if this were true the LD guys would try to get heads that deform the most as possible and use them and not care about durability ? There’s literally no evidence of this 

Well, in all fairness, I don't disagree with your logic, but I have the evidence of my experience sitting on the shelf on my office wall. 

[pinhigh27]

8 minutes ago, The Mad Bomber said:

Well, in all fairness, I don't disagree with your logic, but I have the evidence of my experience sitting on the shelf on my office wall. 

Ok feel free to share it 

 

do you really think titleist would make a driver that only fits the 1% of people who swing fast and are good 

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, bogeypro said:

Not all drivers use the same face material or design.  Therefore, it isn't unreasonable to think that each one can provide different ball speed when being swung at the same speed.  

Except COR and CT are limited so if it meets spec , yes the speeds are going to be very similar with the same swing speed 

[The Mad Bomber]

1 minute ago, pinhigh27 said:

Ok feel free to share it 

 

do you really think titleist would make a driver that only fits the 1% of people who swing fast and are good 

Not so black and white as only the 1%, but isn't that their reputation? They get killed in sales every single year because on any given Saturday, you see bags full of Callaways, TM's and PING's. Yet....I go to the Amateur or the Mid-Am or the provincial Open - tons of Titleist. I don't buy that it's because they're magically more forgiving than SIM's or Mavriks for the better players. That's the part of this over-arcing discussion that I can't get around. For a long time now, so long that I can't just write it off to marketing, this has been the case - weekend warriors tend to move towards TM and Cally and as you get around higher level players, Titleist usage increases dramatically. There's plenty of evidence of this.

So do I think Titleist only makes a driver for better players? Maybe? And maybe that's why they have that reputation and get beaten like a drum in sales every year? I don't know.

[pinhigh27]

Ok so prove it

[noodle3872]

Lol

Edited December 28, 2020 by noodle3872

[nsxguy]

17 minutes ago, The Mad Bomber said:

Not so black and white as only the 1%, but isn't that their reputation? They get killed in sales every single year because on any given Saturday, you see bags full of Callaways, TM's and PING's. Yet....I go to the Amateur or the Mid-Am or the provincial Open - tons of Titleist. I don't buy that it's because they're magically more forgiving than SIM's or Mavriks for the better players. That's the part of this over-arcing discussion that I can't get around. For a long time now, so long that I can't just write it off to marketing, this has been the case - weekend warriors tend to move towards TM and Cally and as you get around higher level players, Titleist usage increases dramatically. There's plenty of evidence of this.

So do I think Titleist only makes a driver for better players? Maybe? And maybe that's why they have that reputation and get beaten like a drum in sales every year? I don't know.

 

I see (or is that I notice ?) Cally and TM drivers all the time on TV. I see (or is that I notice ?) more online and in-store advertising for Cally and TM drivers.

 

I guess I have to wonder why you can't "write it off to marketing" ? 

 

[golfsensai]

Last titlelist driver I played was 905R when I played in collage- from than Taylormade R 11, M2, Callaway Epic Sub Zero and Ping G410 LSt was only drivers that really shown me advancement in ball speed/ forgiveness. 

 

TSi 3 - I think this is my favorite driver of all time. It is just so playable, low misses on the face give good number and the consistency and ball speed is at the top. 

 

I changed the ball to TP5X- hence high spin and I am driving the ball further and more accurate than ever before- so much confidence this driver brings- I set my setting to H1 and C2 setting it was magic with TP5X - New HZDUS RDX Black 6.5 is a great shaft- I normally play 75 but even at 60g so stable - accuracy reminds me of Fuji black Velecore- great shaft

[pinestreetgolf]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:36 AM, The Mad Bomber said:

Not so black and white as only the 1%, but isn't that their reputation? They get killed in sales every single year because on any given Saturday, you see bags full of Callaways, TM's and PING's. Yet....I go to the Amateur or the Mid-Am or the provincial Open - tons of Titleist. I don't buy that it's because they're magically more forgiving than SIM's or Mavriks for the better players. That's the part of this over-arcing discussion that I can't get around. For a long time now, so long that I can't just write it off to marketing, this has been the case - weekend warriors tend to move towards TM and Cally and as you get around higher level players, Titleist usage increases dramatically. There's plenty of evidence of this.

So do I think Titleist only makes a driver for better players? Maybe? And maybe that's why they have that reputation and get beaten like a drum in sales every year? I don't know.

 

What a nonsense post.

 

What is "get around higher level players" mean, exactly?  A state amateur?  Because I can assure you that Titleist is no more represented at the Louisiana State Am or Mid-Am than any other OEM.  What data are you talking about here?  Where are these high level players where usage doesn't just increase, it increases *dramatically* ?

 

I played with five other guys in significant amateur events last year (plus me).  There were two titleist drivers, one ping and three TM.  What the heck are you talking about?  What the heck are you basing this on?  Where are you getting this data?

 

No disrespect, but if just you going "yo, hey, I think I see more better dudes with Titleist" then just say that so we can all ignore whatever it is you're trying to say.  If there is more to the data set than that, please explain, because *that* would be interesting.

Edited December 30, 2020 by pinestreetgolf

[pdiddy3]

I really think srixon and cobra will steal a BIG slice of the pie this year!! Both are so hot, and consistent. I'm hoping I can get some of my players into these. Keep some money in their pockets!! Love coaching amd helping "kids"

[HISPL]

On 12/29/2020 at 12:33 AM, pinhigh27 said:

Except COR and CT are limited so if it meets spec , yes the speeds are going to be very similar with the same swing speed 

Sorry, but I feel that is too simplistic of a view to be applied here, and here are some of my thoughts as to why I would make such a comment.

 

Achieving the maximum permissible ball speed on a specific point in the face is not difficult for the manufacturers to achieve, this has been done for some time now.

 

What IS difficult, and many millions of dollars are poured into in terms of R&D to be able to attempt to achieve is this maximum ball speed across a wide range of strike positions on the club face.

 

Also, as drivers have COG locations that do vary, players are best to find one so that their strike pattern lines up to where this is projected on the face, this improves directional control too.

 

There is of course a MUCH longer list of points to consider when a club fitter is working with a player than what I’ve described here, that’s why most golfers struggle to self fit and also why it is hard to find a really good club fitter... it’s because it isn’t easy to do exceptionally well.

 

What is easy (Hopefully for most fitters), is getting the basics right, and this will get the golfer a big improvement in performance even if the fitter has limited knowledge/skill.

Pretty much a good example of the 80/20 rule, you can get 80% of the way there with a sound knowledge or club fitting, BUT that extra 20% takes some doing!

[RoyalMustang]

On 12/5/2020 at 4:19 PM, kizzy911 said:

I hit the TSI3 It is pretty good, but not leaps and bounds over the TS3.  The face feels softer and the sound is very good.  I think if you have a fitted TS3, then save your money.   TSI3 is very sexy looking and the ball likes to take it from behind with the TSI3 😁

 

I doubt I am good enough to figure out how much better these are: I am one of the people who hit a 917 D3 better than the TS3. 10 yards is a lot! 

[skraly]

I have a LH Ping G425 10.5.  I can describe it in one word-WOW!!!

[Morry]

10 minutes ago, skraly said:

I have a LH Ping G425 10.5.  I can describe it in one word-WOW!!!

Getting a LH 12degree as soon as possible!!!

Cannot wait 

 

[Brooks_Cupcake]

1 hour ago, skraly said:

I have a LH Ping G425 10.5.  I can describe it in one word-WOW!!!

Max or LST?

[jds101086]

On 12/29/2020 at 8:05 PM, pdiddy3 said:

I really think srixon and cobra will steal a BIG slice of the pie this year!! Both are so hot, and consistent. I'm hoping I can get some of my players into these. Keep some money in their pockets!! Love coaching amd helping "kids"

It sucks to say, but that is never going to happen. probably 80% of the market wouldn't even look at a Srixon wood, let alone pick it up and hit it. Cobra has a stigma it can't quite shake. Their woods have been great since I can remember but they aren't doing themselves any favors with the colors and the names. Stubborn, yes; but that describes a majority of the golfing public that spends cash at retail for an off the shelf driver. 

 

With performance being so close in modern drivers looks, feel, availability and brand are more of a factor. The percentages of driver sales will stay roughly the same regardless of how any of these clubs perform. 

 

I've said it before, but based on the general assumptions above: TM stays the same, Cally drops a touch, Titleist gains a touch. Cobra stays the same. As for the also rans, Srixion gains big but what does that mean? 1% market share to 2%? That's peanuts in the end and fighting for scraps with Bridgestone and Wilson woods.

[BallerNate]

Can anyone with insider info tell us when these clubs will be coming out in retail? Early February probably?

[golfmatt]

13 hours ago, jds101086 said:

It sucks to say, but that is never going to happen. probably 80% of the market wouldn't even look at a Srixon wood, let alone pick it up and hit it. Cobra has a stigma it can't quite shake. Their woods have been great since I can remember but they aren't doing themselves any favors with the colors and the names. Stubborn, yes; but that describes a majority of the golfing public that spends cash at retail for an off the shelf driver. 

 

With performance being so close in modern drivers looks, feel, availability and brand are more of a factor. The percentages of driver sales will stay roughly the same regardless of how any of these clubs perform. 

 

I've said it before, but based on the general assumptions above: TM stays the same, Cally drops a touch, Titleist gains a touch. Cobra stays the same. As for the also rans, Srixion gains big but what does that mean? 1% market share to 2%? That's peanuts in the end and fighting for scraps with Bridgestone and Wilson woods.

Interesting, so you don't see price as a factor in the buying process? Clearly Cobra gained with the F9 because it was considerably cheaper than the big guys, well in the UK anyway.

[jds101086]

54 minutes ago, golfmatt said:

Interesting, so you don't see price as a factor in the buying process? Clearly Cobra gained with the F9 because it was considerably cheaper than the big guys, well in the UK anyway.

Sure is.

Every market is different too. Playing off what I was getting at before, someone who is walking into their golf shop looking for the SIM 2 isn't going to buy the Cobra because it's $100 cheaper. Or the guy who's up in the air on what club to get but doesn't like Cobra's style will pay a little more for the club he does like the look of. I'd love to see Cobra get some recognition in retail sales and non contract tour play, especially if their prices are lower. It might force the big 3 to move away from $550 drivers.

Availability is as important as price too. I've never seen a Cobra club in a high end pro shop(where membership almost always gets their clubs). Sure that's not an indicator of the mass market, but they also don't have the rack space at most retailers so that hurts them too. 

[getair23]

On 12/28/2020 at 11:25 AM, pinhigh27 said:

Ok feel free to share it 

 

do you really think titleist would make a driver that only fits the 1% of people who swing fast and are good 

They did, the TS4 and TSi4. Pretty sure TSi 3 & 2 will do very well for most people. 

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, getair23 said:

They did, the TS4 and TSi4. Pretty sure TSi 3 & 2 will do very well for most people. 

Right but those are niche drivers they produce way less of . The main premise was that all titleist drivers only fit better faster swingers, which obviously makes no sense for titleist to do from a financial standpoint 

[j_giesler]

Still gaming a rotation of models at least 3 years old (some much older). Will wait for prices to drop, doubtful an older we’ll fit driver can be beat by enough to justify the prices.

[Kmcgee]

Big money for incremental gains results in a net loss.  No need to upgrade unless something looks/fits your eye.  Every company makes great stuff and they are all near the limit allowable.   Not saying I wont buy.  Sometimes Pops needs a new car even though the old one runs great.....  Just being honest that I am buying to buy, not for some perceived improvement,  Think most are in the same boat.  IMHO

[5baytjd]

54 minutes ago, j_giesler said:

Still gaming a rotation of models at least 3 years old (some much older). Will wait for prices to drop, doubtful an older we’ll fit driver can be beat by enough to justify the prices.

Probably in the 5 to 7 year range you're going to see some fairly decent differences (depending on swing dynamics of course). 

I went for driver fittings at PXG and Ping this past year, and neither could come up with any head/shaft combo to unseat my G400Max gamer.  That's getting to be 3 years old now, so I'm right there with ya.