El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[Hawkeye77]

Kutcher sounds like the kinda guy who gives his wife $5 for Valentines and says, “Go buy yourself something pretty.”

 

Better in some ways than $30 roses that die a slow and agonizing death - they have feelings.

 

And leave Kutcher out of this.

[BottleCap]

The restaurant analogy is as close as we can come in comparing the two scenarios.

 

Really? Why?

How exactly is a server at a restaurant who will have fleeting interactions with dozens - maybe hundreds - of customers a day and dealing with all sorts of unique personalities and requests, the same as someone spending 5 consecutive hours following around one specific customer, do the same handful of repetitive tasks?

 

This is more like going to French Laundry, having the dining experience of your life, scratching out the normal service charge, and leaving 15 cents.

 

Come on, the guy is obviously in the Applebees crowd and has no idea

[kcsf]

The restaurant analogy is as close as we can come in comparing the two scenarios.

 

Really? Why?

How exactly is a server at a restaurant who will have fleeting interactions with dozens - maybe hundreds - of customers a day and dealing with all sorts of unique personalities and requests, the same as someone spending 5 consecutive hours following around one specific customer, do the same handful of repetitive tasks?

 

Did you not read my post? In both situations a persons wage is determined by a reasonably accepted % set by societal standards.

 

Societal standards don't set pay for tour caddies - it's the money driven PGA Tour, not the SJW Open.

 

Oh, you're so cheeky.

 

Here's the societal professional caddy standard as quoted in GolfWeek:

 

Caddie’s Earnings

 

A caddie for a professional golfer typically earns 5 percent to 10 percent of the players’ winnings, on top of any salary he’s paid.

[rkelso184]

How do we even know half of the claims here are accurate? How do we know he didn't say 3k min, 5k if I make the cut and a percentage if I win. The guy accepts the offer and gets his 5k in cash, matt than wins and says I'll give you 1% for your bonus once I get paid (which is quiet a substantial amount for doing nothing more than he actually done for his 5k of work) but he said no I won't more so matt declines and leaves it alone?

 

This guy got 5k for 4 days work. He does not deserve the same rate as a pro caddy as he simply is not a pro caddy. He then gets offered 15k additional and turns this down because he wants more. Again if he agreed to 5k that's the end of all of this. You don't agree to pay someone something then turn around and change that because the circumstances changed. If Matt missed the cut would it be ok for him to pay the guy 2K??

[farmer]

Given that El Toucan literally did little more than carry the bag, I would have paid him half what my regular tour caddie would make. I doubt Kuch relied on him for yardages, or reads beyond the most basic. That would have been a lot of money in pesos, but the govt gets 34%, the caddie master would have expected a chunk, maybe even the resort would want a piece. It might not have been transformative, but it would have made a big difference in the families life.

[jj9000]

Some of you on this thread on Team Kuchar need to read up on the a fallacy known (among other names) as the "continuum fallacy," or "fallacy of the beard."

 

Being cheap is a thing. Being generous is a thing. Just because some of you can't put an exact number on what is cheap doesn't mean that there isn't a thing called "being cheap."

 

So just stop with this "I don't know how much he should have given him, so therefore it can't have been cheap." None of you are actually saying those words, but that is, nevertheless, your argument. That's flat-out fallacious reasoning.

 

No tip on top of the $3,000 would have been cheap. $1.00 would have been cheap. (Virtually) everyone would agree with that. And so on, up to a certain point that varies from individual to individual. At some point we all have a point at which the tip becomes "reasonable," and then flows over into "generous." That is a given.

 

This is really the only argument here from those of us on Team Toucan. That's it. We're literally arguing about the definition of cheap in this instance, which is why I posted my question earlier in the thread. I really wish some of you guys on Team Kuchar would answer it, because I think it would help minimize the snark.

 

When Microsoft posts a job opening for a junior developer or something, they list a salary of X. If you want that job you can take it, if you don't you don't. People don't usually argue "well Steve Ballmer is worth 20B so they can afford more". There is a general understanding of how the economy works.

 

 

 

That's not how it works, big employers don't post a salary all that is negotiated and generally, successful companies do pay more because they have more.

 

Don't assume this because it's a terrible assumption.

 

Apple is an extremely successful company.

 

Care to take a gander at what they pay folks in China to produce iPhones?

 

Apple doesn't pay people to produce their phones. Apple contracts production out to firms that may manufacture them in China.

 

The first sentence doesn't reconcile with the second sentence. Apple is paying for phones to be produced in China at very very low wage rates. That hits to the heart of your statement re: successful companies paying more because they can.

 

If you want to delve into semantics re: sub-contract rates we can.

 

The point remains the same though.

[rkelso184]

Kutcher sounds like the kinda guy who gives his wife $5 for Valentines and says, “Go buy yourself something pretty.”

 

When he was in Aus he was on the putting green with a young Aus junior. Came over on his own, bent down to the kids height and had a conversation all about the young kid. They sunk some putts together, he then fist pumped the kid and walked off. Wasn't for Fame, he didn't have to and no one asked him to.

 

I don't feel this guys reputation as a person should be decided by what he has or has not paid someone.

 

Also keep in mind the agreement may have been 5k all along and the caddy was happy because if he did go well he would get more work. I know any local caddy would caddy for free/ bugger all to carry the bag of any pro on the PGA simply for the experience

[Hawkeye77]

The restaurant analogy is as close as we can come in comparing the two scenarios.

 

Really? Why?

How exactly is a server at a restaurant who will have fleeting interactions with dozens - maybe hundreds - of customers a day and dealing with all sorts of unique personalities and requests, the same as someone spending 5 consecutive hours following around one specific customer, do the same handful of repetitive tasks?

 

Did you not read my post? In both situations a persons wage is determined by a reasonably accepted % set by societal standards.

 

Societal standards don't set pay for tour caddies - it's the money driven PGA Tour, not the SJW Open.

 

Oh, you're so cheeky.

 

Here's the societal professional caddy standard as quoted in GolfWeek:

 

Caddie’s Earnings

 

 

A caddie for a professional golfer typically earns 5 percent to 10 percent of the players’ winnings, on top of any salary he’s paid.

 

No, not a societal standard - that's obvious, but keep on with it if you must.

 

And that's for the "typical" tour caddie - still has nothing to do with the issue.

 

What are the policies/traditions/standards at the club where El Toucan was hired out of for local caddies - that's the relevant question.

 

Was Kuch given bad info? Was he given info that was at odds with his behavior? Those are also relevant questions.

[Ferguson]

Email from Caddie to Agent of Mr. Kuchar:

 

I believe that I deserve more than what I received for services rendered.

 

 

 

Reply Email from Agent of Mr. Kuchar:

 

 

 

[Under2hours]

The moving of goal posts is really quite something. First it was that Kuchar is within his right to pay what he wants, then it was Toucan got paid according to the "contract." Now they've moved to the work/service that Toucan provided was menial and repetitive.

 

Holy cow.

Everyone defending Kuchar have been good at that.

 

Blame Gillis, Blame today's article writer, no one knows what Kuchar paid, he gave him a 66.6% tip......

 

Remember we're just SJW's.....

[spbrooks]

How on earth, can you possibly know that?

 

Because a tour caddie doesn't just show up and carry.

Let's be honest, really not that difficult! Didn't Langer just win with his daughter on the bag?

[Hawkeye77]

How on earth, can you possibly know that?

 

Because a tour caddie doesn't just show up and carry.

Let's be honest, really not that difficult! Didn't Langer just win with his daughter on the bag?

 

Well, she was anchored to it! Couldn't resist, and well done Bernhard!

[CasualLie]

The moving of goal posts is really quite something. First it was that Kuchar is within his right to pay what he wants, then it was Toucan got paid according to the "contract." Now they've moved to the work/service that Toucan provided was menial and repetitive.

 

Holy cow.

 

Well...to be fair, it is a bit menial and repetitve; after all he is just carrying a bag and giving yardages. He must have done that what? 1000 times?

 

;)

 

The restaurant analogy is as close as we can come in comparing the two scenarios.

 

Really? Why?

How exactly is a server at a restaurant who will have fleeting interactions with dozens - maybe hundreds - of customers a day and dealing with all sorts of unique personalities and requests, the same as someone spending 5 consecutive hours following around one specific customer, do the same handful of repetitive tasks?

 

This is more like going to French Laundry, having the dining experience of your life, scratching out the normal service charge, and leaving 15 cents.

 

And then, after being called out for being a dime-tipping cheapskate, saying it "wasn't ten cents, and it wasn't 20%"

 

Bad example, French Laundry has 20% service charge.

[Anchor44]

How on earth, can you possibly know that?

 

Because a tour caddie doesn't just show up and carry.

Let's be honest, really not that difficult! Didn't Langer just win with his daughter on the bag?

Yeah but Langer anchors his putter.....

[Sixcat]

10 pages in 7 hours and people are still spelling Tucan "Toucan"

 

This thing went off the rails 9 and a half pages ago!

[chigolfer1]

The only thing I can draw from this secondary flaming pile of a thread (based on how the first one went) is that, if I was Matt Kuchar or any other pro, I would be bringing my caddy or my backup caddy with me, period.

 

What a bunch of people are glossing over with their "Kuchar should have paid him (insert whatever arbitrary number that is justified in your mind at the present time)..." is that this sets a pretty big precedent regarding using a local caddy and what kind of train wreck can come from it.

 

If you say so. We're talking about paying the guy 5k vs. 30k or so, which I'm sure would have not led to any controversy. The difference to Kuchar or any pro winning a tourney is virtually nothing.

[Obee]

Heres a question.

 

Lets say you, for whatever reason, are carrying a shopping bag with $1.3MM in cash.

 

And you forget it under your table at McDonalds.

 

Somebody finds it and returns it to you.

 

How much would you give them as a reward?

 

Me? Personally? $100,000.

[TeeShive]

How exactly did a guy who can't speak English help Kuchar win this tournament? Did he even give Kuchar yardages considering Mexico is on the Metric system?

[darredondo09]

I heard Bettinardi is working on a new putter cover for Kuchar made out of 100% alligator arms

[BottleCap]

Kutcher sounds like the kinda guy who gives his wife $5 for Valentines and says, "Go buy yourself something pretty."

 

I don't feel this guys reputation as a person should be decided by what he has or has not paid someone.

 

 

Why? His action was grotesque.

 

The other day I had lunch at sit down burger place, bill came out to 18, i paid with a 20, then i reached in my pocket for more cash for a tip, i only had a 5 and a 20 no more singles.

 

The Kuchar crowd might leave 2 bucks, the rest of us leaves the 5.

[chigolfer1]

 

 

Was Kuch given bad info? Was he given info that was at odds with his behavior? Those are also relevant questions.

 

Based on everything we've read so far and know about this, do you really think there was an issue with Kucher being given "bad info?"

[ProphetLogic]

Some of you guys are still arguing about there being no "agreement" and that Kuch wasn't "obligated" to do anything? Really? You want out of doing the standard/correct thing by a technicality?

 

Imagine you go to a restaurant/bar with one of your friends and you guys eat and drink and your bill is $100.

 

Are you going to leave a 16 CENT tip? $00.16? And then tell the waiter and everyone else, "Sorry, there was no agreement".

 

Of course not. But 16 cents (more precisely 15.5 cents) is the mathematical equivalent of giving a $2,000 tip on $1,290,000 in winnings.

 

You can go through life not tipping or giving .155% tips if you want. No one is going to arrest you. You aren't technically "obligated", but does that make it right?

 

Kuchar said about El Tucan that week after winning: “He was definitely my lucky charm,” Kuchar said. “He brought me good luck and certainly some extra crowd support and did a great job as well. He did just what I was hoping for and looking for.”

 

The problem with the restaurant analogy is that if you tip a waiter 15 cents on a $100 bill, you are costing them money. They could make more serving another table. 15 cents is wasting their time. The caddy made significantly more than his standard rate. He said he gets $100 a day, he was making 10x his normal rate. He missed out on playing army golf with some drunk hackers, but hardly a waste of his time.

[Hawkeye77]

Heres a question.

 

Lets say you, for whatever reason, are carrying a shopping bag with $1.3MM in cash.

 

And you forget it under your table at McDonalds.

 

Somebody finds it and returns it to you.

 

How much would you give them as a reward?

 

Me? Personally? $100,000.

 

I might give them something, but $100,000? Yikes. To quote from the dark side, "keep your hands off my sack!"

 

A coupon to a place where they can get a proper hot cup of coffee to start - then we'll see.

[Hawkeye77]

Kutcher sounds like the kinda guy who gives his wife $5 for Valentines and says, "Go buy yourself something pretty."

 

I don't feel this guys reputation as a person should be decided by what he has or has not paid someone.

 

 

Why? His action was grotesque.

 

The other day I had lunch at sit down burger place, bill came out to 18, i paid with a 20, then i reached in my pocket for more cash for a tip, i only had a 5 and a 20 no more singles.

 

The Kuchar crowd might leave 2 bucks, the rest of us leaves the 5.

 

No, most of the rest of us get change Rockefeller.

[Bunker2Bunker0no]

Agree with Hawkeye, not sure that using a typical service job,a la a server in a restaurant or a club caddie for that matter, is the same comparison. I view the extra purse % compensation that a regular Tour caddie gets is more of a bonus/commission, not a "typical" tip. The regular guy gets the "commission" to cover the weeks of missed cuts and low finishes that he endured along the way, reward the "bad weeks" of paying for own hotel rooms,meals, rental cars, airfare etc that goes with life on road, with just what his "salary" was on those weeks. Does a local guy with none of these expenses incurred for the week, much less during the yr, need to compensated the exact same as a regular Tour caddie? Players and caddies end relationships, but most of the caddies are staples on Tour for the entire season, so even though u may change bags, the avg weekly flat fee plus the "commission structure" are pretty standard. That's why I don't agree with the "tip" for my service on my steak dinner is 15-50% depending on the service, being the same as the situation here. Tip versus commission in my view....and does a guy with one week of service deserve the same commission structure as your "career caddie."

 

That said, along with my previous post points, I still think $3000 and another $2000 was not generous enough on Matt's part. But lets not say the guy belongs on the CheapSkate Wall of Shame list...he does have a wife that carried bag for ZJ for a few holes, and his kids are old enough to slog the bag around for the week at a resort course, so he could have "saved" all the money when his reg guy took week off and paid out $0 for the Friends and Family Caddie Discount...haha. We certainly saw another "beloved" figure on Tour have his girlfriend/fiance caddie for him for extended periods of time while he was in some dire financial striats by most accounts, so I doubt she was on a generous commission structure during that period. No right or wrong here, just all of our opinions

[redfirebird08]

0.15% of the winnings, lol...guess Tiger can now say he's not the biggest cheapskate on tour.

[Ferguson]

How exactly did a guy who can't speak English help Kuchar win this tournament? Did he even give Kuchar yardages considering Mexico is on the Metric system?

 

 

Thoughtful questions from a guy with only 53 posts.

[PALS-SSA]

Still better than what Ouimet gave Lowry after winning the US Open. :rolleyes:

[vanya]

Kuchar was by all accounts a bit of a nightmare to play with in his year of majors as an amateur.

Swing changes, career fight backs etc & smiley persona rehabilitated him a bit in my eyes.

 

The fact that he now seems to be as tight as a camels arse in a sandstorm ends my interest in rooting for him.

[chigolfer1]

Kutcher sounds like the kinda guy who gives his wife $5 for Valentines and says, "Go buy yourself something pretty."

 

When he was in Aus he was on the putting green with a young Aus junior. Came over on his own, bent down to the kids height and had a conversation all about the young kid. They sunk some putts together, he then fist pumped the kid and walked off. Wasn't for Fame, he didn't have to and no one asked him to.

 

I don't feel this guys reputation as a person should be decided by what he has or has not paid someone.

 

Also keep in mind the agreement may have been 5k all along and the caddy was happy because if he did go well he would get more work. I know any local caddy would caddy for free/ bugger all to carry the bag of any pro on the PGA simply for the experience

 

Granted, we have one data point here but you don't think someone should be at least partially judged on how he treats people and, in this case, his employee?