El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[shoot4par]

You eat at a Michelin Star restaurant regularly and get a certain quality of food. At this restaurant you eat at you have a regular waiter and pay him 20% as an acceptable tip. You go to the same restaurant and that waiter is not there but you achieve the same result and an acceptable quality of service. You pay 2%. Hardly ethical nor logical. The exact numbers aren't important.

[Krt22]

Thinking more like 15% of what your regular would make would be right. After all given the language differential little to no advice is being provided. He doesn't have travel or hotel expenses, no lost time for traveling, he's not working long hours on the range with him, he's not managing the long list of pre and post tournament logistics either. He's just showing up and carrying a bag and he thinks that's deserving of what the regular caddie earns? Delusional.

 

Really though?

 

Dude lives and works at a golf resort. Do you just assume he points and grunts at things like a caveman? Sure, dude probably has broken English and a strong accent. But when 90% of your clientele are American/English speaking tourists on vacation...you best believe he knows enough English to successfully caddy for a group of golfers and offer them his professional advice, gained through years of employment there.

 

I can see how you might take that in that manner, but I took it as he was more like a forecaddie vs what a normal tour caddie functions as. He doesn't know kuch, kuchs game, his distances, his normal miss, his tendencies under pressure, etc. All things a full time touring caddie picks up on to manage their player being on the road with them more than half the year.

 

Not having to cover travel and lodging expenses is also a huge delta. The 10% that goes to normal caddies is for a lot more than 4 days of carrying a bag, it's everything else they do off the course for the rest of the year

[CasualLie]

Team Meeting at Excel Sports Management this morning:

 

Mark: ok, what do you got for me...

 

Asst1: Tiger won the team celebrity event yesterday.

 

Mark: Nice! Who do we represent on that team?

 

Asst1: Uhhh.....

 

Mark: Next!

 

Asst2: We still have a problem with Matt and El Tucan

 

Mark: Now what?

 

Asst2: Golf magazine put out a story saying he is still not paid

 

Mark: Did they mention the $15k that $^&@^$&^@& turned down!

 

Asst2: Yes, but....

 

Asst3: There's a thread heating up again on golfwrx.

 

Mark: golf what?

 

Asst3: golfwrx, it's a websi...

 

Mark: Next!

[kyledeen]

you give someone who's cheap a chance to be cheap, and they will be cheap.

 

he thought he could get away with one and save 50 grand. then stupidly offered 15k thinking "this peasant will say yes and go away". Bad look for the #10 $ Winner of all time.

[SUITS]

I'm not going to tell Kuch how to spend his winnings, however I do think giving him all the mixed bills was in poor taste. I cant even explain why but that part bugs me.

Wonder if he did that to make the envelope feel thicker.

[Krt22]

Some of you on this thread on Team Kuchar need to read up on the a fallacy known (among other names) as the "continuum fallacy," or "fallacy of the beard."

 

Being cheap is a thing. Being generous is a thing. Just because some of you can't put an exact number on what is cheap doesn't mean that there isn't a thing called "being cheap."

 

So just stop with this "I don't know how much he should have given him, so therefore it can't have been cheap." None of you are actually saying those words, but that is, nevertheless, your argument. That's flat-out fallacious reasoning.

 

No tip on top of the $3,000 would have been cheap. $1.00 would have been cheap. (Virtually) everyone would agree with that. And so on, up to a certain point that varies from individual to individual. At some point we all have a point at which the tip becomes "reasonable," and then flows over into "generous." That is a given.

 

This is really the only argument here from those of us on Team Toucan. That's it. We're literally arguing about the definition of cheap in this instance, which is why I posted my question earlier in the thread. I really wish some of you guys on Team Kuchar would answer it, because I think it would help minimize the snark.

 

When Microsoft posts a job opening for a junior developer or something, they list a salary of X. If you want that job you can take it, if you don't you don't. People don't usually argue "well Steve Ballmer is worth 20B so they can afford more". There is a general understanding of how the economy works.

 

 

 

That's not how it works, big employers don't post a salary all that is negotiated and generally, successful companies do pay more because they have more.

 

Yes I know, I just posted that to be more succinct. There will typically be a salary range they can work with but that won't be on the listing but the argument is the same

 

I'm not sure there is data to support that more successful companies pay more. I have not always found that to be the case but I could be wrong

 

In my experience(Silicon valley tech world). Cash comp may be similar, but if you work of one of the big ones, stock awards can easily double or triple your total take home pay, which is only possible when you have a huge market cap. Same goes for the banking world.

[Obee]

Some of you on this thread on Team Kuchar need to read up on the a fallacy known (among other names) as the "continuum fallacy," or "fallacy of the beard."

 

Being cheap is a thing. Being generous is a thing. Just because some of you can't put an exact number on what is cheap doesn't mean that there isn't a thing called "being cheap."

 

So just stop with this "I don't know how much he should have given him, so therefore it can't have been cheap." None of you are actually saying those words, but that is, nevertheless, your argument. That's flat-out fallacious reasoning.

 

No tip on top of the $3,000 would have been cheap. $1.00 would have been cheap. (Virtually) everyone would agree with that. And so on, up to a certain point that varies from individual to individual. At some point we all have a point at which the tip becomes "reasonable," and then flows over into "generous." That is a given.

 

This is really the only argument here from those of us on Team Toucan. That's it. We're literally arguing about the definition of cheap in this instance, which is why I posted my question earlier in the thread. I really wish some of you guys on Team Kuchar would answer it, because I think it would help minimize the snark.

 

Hi Obee, I plan on mostly staying out of this but will respond to you because I respect you and feel we can have a good dialog.

 

I just don't see this much differently than most employer/employee relationships. Many of us work in large businesses, and chances are good that if you make 50-60k or whatever, your CEO might make 10M. People who work for Google, GoPro, apple, Microsoft whoever...there are employees there that make 50k, 150k, and there are people that have net worths in the multi millions.

 

When Microsoft posts a job opening for a junior developer or something, they list a salary of X. If you want that job you can take it, if you don't you don't. People don't usually argue "well Steve Ballmer is worth 20B so they can afford more". There is a general understanding of how the economy works.

 

I argued in the other thread about markets, that Kuchar has a right to post a job every weekend if he wants and say "caddy for hire, 3000$". And if he can fill it, great! That's his right. He just won a PGA tournament with a 5000$ caddy. Maybe that's the correct market value. Or maybe not. If he posted that and no one took the gig, or did a poor job that hurt kuchar's chances, than it's not good and he should pay more

 

I don't care if people call him cheap that's their prerogative too. But I just don't succumb to "we need to do X because that's always what has been done"

 

No one here that I know of is arguing about the $3,000. It's what happened after the $3,000 for the week was settled.

 

Do you think there was zero expectation on the part of both Kuchar and Toucan that if he won or placed highly in the tournament that there would be no further remuneration?

 

Of course you don't believe that. There is a rate we pay a caddie, and then there is the tip. Always. Which Kuchar acknowledges by giving him the $2,000 additional tip beyond their agreed amount. We're arguing about Kuchar's cheap tip. Period.

 

He had the absolute right to stiff the guy if he wanted. That is not at issue, bud.

[BottleCap]

Those of you that genuinely feel El Toucan was robbed, despite himself negotiating this pay, should pay him out of your pocket to make it "fair". Or start a Gofundme.

 

No one thinks he was robbed.

 

We think Kuchar is cheap. Just like I think a friend is cheap it we go out to a $100-a-man nice dinner and he leaves a $5.00 tip when there were no issues with the service whatsoever.

 

Some stigmas contribute to societal well-being, some are not so beneficial. For instance, I want there to be a stigma for people who loudly talk on their phone next to you on the subway. Or who play their music through a loudspeaker in a public place forcing you to listen to it.

 

And I want there to be a stigma to being a bad tipper. And you know what? There already is one, and it's alive and well as evidenced by this thread. It's just that some people don't seem to appreciate that stigma.... ;-)

 

I think it's cultural, and we have different folks here on the forum

 

There are guys that leave a 50 dollar tip on the 100 are probably guys that buy PXG, Maruman, Honma play Titleist balls and wear Peter Millar

 

Then we have guys on Golfwrx leave a 5 dollar tip on a 100 dollar bill, those are probably the guys that buy Callaway clubs and balls on discount and wear Nike

[BlackDiamondPar5]

ElTucan sounds like a self-entitled jerk. He and some others are pretty much clueless as to the additional duties of the tour caddie. Guy does a fraction of the job for a week and wants full pay... Total BS. I'm also going to bet the El Tucan pretty much cost himself future earnings with the pros.

 

I'll make this offer, If Kuch or any other pro want to pay me $5k to caddie for them for the week I'll gladly take the week off and sling their bag around.

 

Did you even read the article? He even points out, that he wasn't expecting full tour caddie money.

 

I did... "On that basis, in the euphoria of victory, Ortiz had hoped to make as much as $130,000."

[jacobEDGE]

Thinking more like 15% of what your regular would make would be right. After all given the language differential little to no advice is being provided. He doesn't have travel or hotel expenses, no lost time for traveling, he's not working long hours on the range with him, he's not managing the long list of pre and post tournament logistics either. He's just showing up and carrying a bag and he thinks that's deserving of what the regular caddie earns? Delusional.

 

Really though?

 

Dude lives and works at a golf resort. Do you just assume he points and grunts at things like a caveman? Sure, dude probably has broken English and a strong accent. But when 90% of your clientele are American/English speaking tourists on vacation...you best believe he knows enough English to successfully caddy for a group of golfers and offer them his professional advice, gained through years of employment there.

 

I can see how you might take that in that manner, but I took it as he was more like a forecaddie vs what a normal tour caddie functions as. He doesn't know kuch, kuchs game, his distances, his normal miss, his tendencies under pressure, etc. All things a full time touring caddie picks up on to manage their player being on the road with them more than half the year.

 

Not having to cover travel and lodging expenses is also a huge delta. The 10% that goes to normal caddies is for a lot more than 4 days of carrying a bag, it's everything else they do off the course for the rest of the year

 

I don't think anyone is disputing or in disagreement with what you said.

 

Toucan never asked for 10%.

Nobody in this thread is suggesting he should get 10%.

 

But there's a happy medium somewhere between 0.15% and 10%.

[MtlJeff]

Heres a question.

 

Lets say you, for whatever reason, are carrying a shopping bag with $1.3MM in cash.

 

And you forget it under your table at McDonalds.

 

Somebody finds it and returns it to you.

 

How much would you give them as a reward?

 

I'd accuse them of theft and see to it that they are imprisoned

[MtlJeff]

Some of you on this thread on Team Kuchar need to read up on the a fallacy known (among other names) as the "continuum fallacy," or "fallacy of the beard."

 

Being cheap is a thing. Being generous is a thing. Just because some of you can't put an exact number on what is cheap doesn't mean that there isn't a thing called "being cheap."

 

So just stop with this "I don't know how much he should have given him, so therefore it can't have been cheap." None of you are actually saying those words, but that is, nevertheless, your argument. That's flat-out fallacious reasoning.

 

No tip on top of the $3,000 would have been cheap. $1.00 would have been cheap. (Virtually) everyone would agree with that. And so on, up to a certain point that varies from individual to individual. At some point we all have a point at which the tip becomes "reasonable," and then flows over into "generous." That is a given.

 

This is really the only argument here from those of us on Team Toucan. That's it. We're literally arguing about the definition of cheap in this instance, which is why I posted my question earlier in the thread. I really wish some of you guys on Team Kuchar would answer it, because I think it would help minimize the snark.

 

When Microsoft posts a job opening for a junior developer or something, they list a salary of X. If you want that job you can take it, if you don't you don't. People don't usually argue "well Steve Ballmer is worth 20B so they can afford more". There is a general understanding of how the economy works.

 

 

 

That's not how it works, big employers don't post a salary all that is negotiated and generally, successful companies do pay more because they have more.

 

Yes I know, I just posted that to be more succinct. There will typically be a salary range they can work with but that won't be on the listing but the argument is the same

 

I'm not sure there is data to support that more successful companies pay more. I have not always found that to be the case but I could be wrong

 

In my experience(Silicon valley tech world). Cash comp may be similar, but if you work of one of the big ones, stock awards can easily double or triple your total take home pay, which is only possible when you have a huge market cap. Same goes for the banking world.

 

Do they typically give this to all employees are only high level ones? Not my industry so I'm genuinely curious

[jaymayor]

Those of you that genuinely feel El Toucan was robbed, despite himself negotiating this pay, should pay him out of your pocket to make it "fair". Or start a Gofundme.

 

No one thinks he was robbed.

 

We think Kuchar is cheap. Just like I think a friend is cheap it we go out to a $100-a-man nice dinner and he leaves a $5.00 tip when there were no issues with the service whatsoever.

 

Some stigmas contribute to societal well-being, some are not so beneficial. For instance, I want there to be a stigma for people who loudly talk on their phone next to you on the subway. Or who play their music through a loudspeaker in a public place forcing you to listen to it.

 

And I want there to be a stigma to being a bad tipper. And you know what? There already is one, and it's alive and well as evidenced by this thread. It's just that some people don't seem to appreciate that stigma.... ;-)

 

I think it's cultural, and we have different folks here on the forum

 

There are guys that leave a 50 dollar tip on the 100 are probably guys that buy PXG, Maruman, Honma play Titleist balls and wear Peter Millar

 

Then we have guys on Golfwrx leave a 5 dollar tip on a 100 dollar bill, those are probably the guys that buy Callaway clubs and balls on discount and wear Nike

 

Or people just appreciate good service vs. people who just think it's their job and that's what they get paid to do. It's the latter who have never worked in the service industry and don't understand what comes with the job and the s*** you have to deal with on a daily basis.

[Circaflex]

ElTucan sounds like a self-entitled jerk. He and some others are pretty much clueless as to the additional duties of the tour caddie. Guy does a fraction of the job for a week and wants full pay... Total BS. I'm also going to bet the El Tucan pretty much cost himself future earnings with the pros.

 

I'll make this offer, If Kuch or any other pro want to pay me $5k to caddie for them for the week I'll gladly take the week off and sling their bag around.

 

Did you even read the article? He even points out, that he wasn't expecting full tour caddie money.

 

I did... "On that basis, in the euphoria of victory, Ortiz had hoped to make as much as $130,000."

 

Hoped to make as much, not expected to make 130,000. Big difference, also

 

"Ortiz said he did not expect to be paid what a Tour caddie would have made, but said he believed his work and contribution toward the win was worth $50,000."

[bigchucksr]

I'm taking this matter to the "Who Gives a S..T" locker with the understanding that it is not my job (our yours) to mediate contracts domestic or foreign between players and caddies.

The only exception being that speculation from the cheap seats is a god given right of all Americans and so bloviating about this silliness is acceptable mid-winter when nothing else is going on. Therefore, understand that nothing is or will be settled and you must somehow decide how much, if any, guilt you are willing to personally accept of the "It ain't fair" burden. I suggest "NONE" but it is up to you.

[JaNelson38]

Or people just appreciate good service vs. people who just think it's their job and that's what they get paid to do. It's the latter who have never worked in the service industry and don't understand what comes with the job and the s*** you have to deal with on a daily basis.

 

Dude got paid 10% of the median yearly salary in America for carrying a golf bag roughly 25 hours in a 4-day period.

 

I mean, lets stop pretending this is a minimum wage job this guy has. At a $5K payment for 25 hours of work, he made $200 per hour.

[ProphetLogic]

Heres a question.

 

Lets say you, for whatever reason, are carrying a shopping bag with $1.3MM in cash.

 

And you forget it under your table at McDonalds.

 

Somebody finds it and returns it to you.

 

How much would you give them as a reward?

 

Clearly the correct answer is all of it. Also the keys to your car since you probably have another one.

[JRJ70]

There's alot of information that we don't have. If Kuchar got together the 5k in cash with a promise to get him another 15k at the time of the tournament and the caddie refused at that time would it change things? From the article there hasnt been any real communication since the tournament so when was the 15k offered? 20k is probably still light but it would change things somewhat for me if he turned it down at that point. If they offered 15k more last week that changes things the other way. So whats the point in speculating?

 

Talk about trying to twist something..... Any reasonable person can deduce this never happened. This is like someone else claiming Kuch collected every penny he could scrounge to get the $2,000 tip.

 

How laughable. Kuch paid him $5,000, thought he got away with it. When called out January 12th, still played coy and now it is 100% confirmed he is cheap.

 

Do you know when the 15k was offered? To me an offer of 15k right after the tournament is still a little light but at leastt shows some good faith. That being offered 2 months later in January is nothing more than an attempt to save face.

[hendog39]

If koooch is following this I will gladly accept the extra 15k that tooouuuuccchhh didn’t want

[dbbowen2]

My $0.02 on all of this, take it as you will. I'm firmly in the belief that you should build people up. Try and have a positive impact on everyone you see. You know the whole do onto others thing. Im not religious, Im not some SJW millenial. I just honestly think the world would be a better place if people had more perspective into other peoples lives.

 

 

Look at these two guys. Kutchar has been brought up with a silver spoon compared to what the caddy has been through.

 

 

This doesnt mean he should just be given money out of charity. Kutchar had not had a win in some time before this tournament. Dude needed a caddy, local guy stepped up. Brought a lot of local cheer and knew his home course he played.

 

 

The $5k payout was insulting. I dont know the back story on the cash or if he just didnt have the money at the time, but especially after making a 1m pay out... 50k is nothing. Kutchar had the perfect opportunity to build this guy up, be an example of a great person in the spotlight and do things to help others. He didnt. That 50K could put a kid through college.

 

 

People with means dont have the responsibility to overpay, however In this situation, he missed a great opportunity to do good for himself, his image, his brand, and for this caddy.

 

 

Lost a lot of respect for Kutchar. If this was a stand in caddy from pebble beach, i bet this story would be a lot different.

[tbowles411]

I get that Kuch made an agreement and people think that's the end of it, but it's not that simple. I own a business too. There's such a thing as ethics. It's just a bad look. You do whatever you need to do to save your reputation and make every effort to write a big check to make things right. So, you have to ask yourself, how much is your name and reputation worth to you?

[diablocrusher]

Declining 15k is called the principal. Kuchar is a cheap man, good for the caddie. And all of you saying you would caddie for 5k and don't know what he's mad about are probably the some of the same people who are always low balling people on BST who would likely cry about it too after the fact.

 

They're probably also the same people who complain when their favovorite football teams star player is asking to renegoiate their contract and they post on social media "Geeeez making $7 mil a year to play football an still complaining....put me in there coach I'll be the running back for $2 mil!".

[jacobEDGE]

Heres a question.

 

Lets say you, for whatever reason, are carrying a shopping bag with $1.3MM in cash.

 

And you forget it under your table at McDonalds.

 

Somebody finds it and returns it to you.

 

How much would you give them as a reward?

 

Clearly the correct answer is all of it. Also the keys to your car since you probably have another one.

 

You ever going to add anything of value to this thread? Or just continuously talk about nonsense like diamond pizza toppings and absurd comments like giving him the keys to your car?

[NMBob]

Maybe a good time for the PGA tour to institute rules and percentages for any sanctioned PGA event where a Tour Pro and "parking lot" caddie know exactly what the percentage and caddie fee are to be paid at the end of a tournament...including caddie fee for tournament and % of winnings etc. Tips are up to the individual pro.

 

Easy peasy this never happens again.

 

Yep. "The Kuchar Rule" lol.

[duffer987]

Some of you on this thread on Team Kuchar need to read up on the a fallacy known (among other names) as the "continuum fallacy," or "fallacy of the beard."

 

Being cheap is a thing. Being generous is a thing. Just because some of you can't put an exact number on what is cheap doesn't mean that there isn't a thing called "being cheap."

 

So just stop with this "I don't know how much he should have given him, so therefore it can't have been cheap." None of you are actually saying those words, but that is, nevertheless, your argument. That's flat-out fallacious reasoning.

 

No tip on top of the $3,000 would have been cheap. $1.00 would have been cheap. (Virtually) everyone would agree with that. And so on, up to a certain point that varies from individual to individual. At some point we all have a point at which the tip becomes "reasonable," and then flows over into "generous." That is a given.

 

This is really the only argument here from those of us on Team Toucan. That's it. We're literally arguing about the definition of cheap in this instance, which is why I posted my question earlier in the thread. I really wish some of you guys on Team Kuchar would answer it, because I think it would help minimize the snark.

I could care less whether people think he is cheap or not cheap - he obviously could have given the local caddie much much more. As could Cjeka the year before, but neither of them did.

You are missing (willfully or otherwise) a bunch of posts where people are making larger character and career missives about Kuchar based on this episode and inserting themselves into the episode and how they'd be so fantastic, not simply whether he was cheap and should have given more.

 

That is what a fair few people are countering here, not a definition of cheap.

 

Forgive me, but I don't get the distinction you are trying to make at all. Some people think this is beyond the pale cheapness on Kuchar's part. If pressed, they give an example of what they would consider reasonable as a counter-example. This whole thing (for those of us on Team Toucan) is about what is and is not cheap. What you have the "right" to do is completely beside the point and not at all in play with those of us on Team Toucan. We grant everyone that a priori, as they say. ;-)

So for you, someone who behaves in a cheap manner and does not give someone the amount of compensation you feel they are due for that compensation to not be considered below the "cheap" threshold, is also behaving in a "sickening", "vile", and "disgusting" manner?

 

That's what folks have actually said just in this thread, forgetting about the examples in the big previous thread.

If you file that away as just fine and what cheap people are fair enough, but using such terms to describe this scenario simply diminishes the import and impact of those words, especially when they are applied to a subject where they are genuinely warranted.

 

Or in a different vernacular: save the drama for your mama ;)

[t4t3r]

Some incredible responses here. No one has direct knowledge of the situation, so to say he is coming out now publicly because of the social media pressure is an assumption at best. Toucan could very well have been unhappy with his compensation regardless of what was “agreed upon,” especially since it was undetermined. He doesn’t speak English and I doubt he graduated magna cum laude with an MBA from a prestigious business school, so to again assume he knows exactly what he’s agreeing to at the start of the week is laughable.

 

Kuchar had the opportunity to make this a great story, change a guys life with what essentially amounts to pocket change for him, and he fumbled, period. And then they fumbled again when one of the biggest moron agents in sports tried to “clean it up” with a half-a** response in both word and further compensation. Kudos to Toucan for sticking to the principle.

[jaymayor]

Or people just appreciate good service vs. people who just think it's their job and that's what they get paid to do. It's the latter who have never worked in the service industry and don't understand what comes with the job and the s*** you have to deal with on a daily basis.

 

Dude got paid 10% of the median yearly salary in America for carrying a golf bag roughly 25 hours in a 4-day period.

 

I mean, lets stop pretending this is a minimum wage job this guy has. At a $5K payment for 25 hours of work, he made $200 per hour.

 

You could make this same argument for any caddy on tour so I don't get your premise. Just because he isn't a regular caddy and just filled in, doesn't make the job that he did for Kuch any less credible. He would have gave knowledge to Kuch that probably most other golfers didn't have.

 

There is a much bigger picture here. Golfers strive on confidence and this was Kuch's first win in 4 years. Since that win, his next 4 tournaments were a top 20, top 20, another win and a top 5. Currently leading the fed-ex and just shy of $3,000,000 in winnings so far this year. That tournament kick started his year in a big, big way. If we would have paid that man more than $5000 than he got, and even the $50,000 like the caddy wanted it still would have been worth every single penny.

[Under2hours]

Do you want to bet if Kuch paid him anywhere between $20,000-$50,000 after winning that there never would have been a story?

[Yepyukon]

Don't air your dirty laundry in public. This story has not helped either of them. Kuchar might have more dificulty finding a stand in caddy when he needs it, but not that difficult. Toucan could seriously struggle from this. A possible future employer might look at this, justified or not, and decide they don't want the drama or publicity associated with it. Personally, I agree that the $5k was low. But that should have remained between the two of them and just between the two of them.

[ProphetLogic]

Heres a question.

 

Lets say you, for whatever reason, are carrying a shopping bag with $1.3MM in cash.

 

And you forget it under your table at McDonalds.

 

Somebody finds it and returns it to you.

 

How much would you give them as a reward?

 

Clearly the correct answer is all of it. Also the keys to your car since you probably have another one.

 

You ever going to add anything of value to this thread? Or just continuously talk about nonsense like diamond pizza toppings and absurd comments like giving him the keys to your car?

Pretty clear I've chosen nonsense. Keep saving the world though.