Could a (1)4 handicap win the Open Championship in the 1860's

[2bGood]

Warning - Silly thread:

 

If a modern golfer with modern equipment could go back in time what handicap would they need to be able to win the Open in the early years?

 

A 4 handicap should be able to lap the field a 2 rounds in the 70's would win easily. Given the radically different course conditions I figure you would have to be a solid 6 or 7 to be able to win.

[Ferguson]

Do they have to wear a heavy woolen coat?

[jimbo123]

I think by that time they were hitting gutta perchas.  Those things can go.  Maybe a modern single digit with modern equipment would outdrive Young Tom Morris but probably not by much?  I think the modern player would struggle massively on whatever passed as greens back then, could see that costing 5 or more strokes per round in missed putts, especially if you don’t get to practice on them first.

 

So yeah I don’t think I’d put money on anyone worse than a 4hcp.   

[Superbrit]

Reckon it would be more interesting to see how the likes of a Young Tom Morris would do nowadays with all the modern equipment and course set up

[phizzy30]

52 minutes ago, Superbrit said:

Reckon it would be more interesting to see how the likes of a Young Tom Morris would do nowadays with all the modern equipment and course set up

He would probably adapt and still kick some a**.  The modern tour player has access not only to superior golf equipment, but high quality food and fitness as well.  It would be no different for young Tom Morris.  With all those things as a given, it comes down to talent and YTM had the skills to pay the bills so speak for his time.   

Edited July 22, 2021 by phizzy30

[GHIN n Juice]

Possibly, but you’d have to put the sheep on their lowest setting.  No way a modern golfer could putt on 1/2 inch greens.

[ColinKelvin]

If it was held at Prestwick in the wind and the rain in late September or October, like some early opens, then it could be trickier than you might think to shoot 2 sub-80 rounds.

 

Young Tom Morris shot 149 in 1870 for 36 holes... 74-74 would have been needed (or the equivalent in 3 x 12 holes) to beat him.

[PhlashPhace]

57 minutes ago, ColinKelvin said:

If it was held at Prestwick in the wind and the rain in late September or October, like some early opens, then it could be trickier than you might think to shoot 2 sub-80 rounds.

 

Young Tom Morris shot 149 in 1870 for 36 holes... 74-74 would have been needed (or the equivalent in 3 x 12 holes) to beat him.

The early 60’s would’ve been easier.  If you shot a pair of 80’s you would’ve won 8 times in the 60’s.  If you extrapolate a little the 12 holes at Prestwick would play about 5700 yards for an 18 hole course.  

 

With that said I think a 4 handicap with modern equipment could get it done.  

[PhlashPhace]

3 minutes ago, PhlashPhace said:

The early 60’s would’ve been easier.  If you shot a pair of 80’s you would’ve won 8 times in the 60’s.  If you extrapolate a little the 12 holes at Prestwick would play about 5700 yards for an 18 hole course.  

 

With that said I think a 4 handicap with modern equipment could get it done.  

 

BTW I understand the purists won’t like what I said but it’s kind of like asking if I could win the 1911 Indy 500 if I had a new Ferrari.  I’m not taking anything away from the players but showing how far equipment has come.

[Superbrit]

2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

He would probably adapt and still kick some a**.  The modern tour player has access not only to superior golf equipment, but high quality food and fitness as well.  It would be no different for young Tom Morris.  With all those things as a given, it comes down to talent and YTM had the skills to pay the bills so speak for his time.   

Yeah i reckon he would still kill it, once he got over the shock of how simple golf has become

[RCGA]

What's "par" on 12 holes? 45-48? And the best round is a 55. So that's 7-10 over through 12. 

 

Yes a 4hcp would crush it.

 

Easy 75y+ longer off the tee. GPS/laser for yardages. Soft and slow greens means it's easy to chip on. 

 

Sure, they'd suck at putting, but putting on greens from the 1860s was surely more luck than skill. 

 

[MtlJeff]

Modern golfer with modern equipment yeah. A 4 index is shooting scores on courses 1000yds longer.

 

It would be like playing the ladies tees now. In the past 4-5 years i've played the ladies tees a lot as part of skins games etc. I don't think i've ever shot worse than par

 

If the course was 5500-5700 as someone mentioned with modern equipment a 4 could play 3-wood , wedge into every green

[Murphy76]

 

Even with modern equipment, I think it would be much harder than you think. 

 

The course conditions would be the biggest hurdle, as I doubt the fairways were mowed very close.  Not much roll, and slowww putting. 

[vallygolf]

We all tend to think of slow greens as a handicap, but with modern trajectories every pin is a green light when you dont have to factor in roll out.  Even chipping could be played right to the hole in many instances.  Wedges werent part of the game at that point.

[ND2005]

38 minutes ago, Murphy76 said:

 

Even with modern equipment, I think it would be much harder than you think. 

 

The course conditions would be the biggest hurdle, as I doubt the fairways were mowed very close.  Not much roll, and slowww putting. 

they literally carried a club specially designed to hit out of deep ruts in the fairway, made by wagons passing through. 

[2bGood]

I think the big challenge would be some of the course conditions. You would have some really gnarly lies. I don't think the slow greens would be as much of an issue. In the area I live in, we play 'winter greens' from time to time when there is frost. Basically just a hole in the fairway. You adjust pretty easy to the very slow speed - there is some randomness to it as it does not roll true, but not a huge deal as you can hit it hard. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by 2bGood

[sittingbull]

Just imagine this on the 1st box if he went back

[RCGA]

Yeah you'd get some squirrelly lies but a modern hybrid will cut through that a lot easier.

 

Assuming you can keep the ball on the planet, you'll win just based off of the strokes gained metrics from length. 

[sekrah]

2 hours ago, vallygolf said:

We all tend to think of slow greens as a handicap, but with modern trajectories every pin is a green light when you dont have to factor in roll out.  Even chipping could be played right to the hole in many instances.  Wedges werent part of the game at that point.

 

 

This..  I don't get all these people acting like this is some huge disadvantage that a modern player couldn't figure out in 1 or 2 holes.  5 strokes a round?  Gtfo.

 

Yes a 4 handicap would not only win if they time-travelled back there with modern equipment, they would likely win by a pole.  For the same reason any decent college pitcher today would win about 15 Cy Youngs in the early 1900s because no one was throwing mid-90s or snapping nasty sliders off back then.

And no, Tom Jones would have almost zero % chance to make the modern pro tour if he were time-machined to the future to play with modern equipment, even with a year of practicing with it.  Athletically, human bodies have evolved very fast from those days. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by sekrah

[GHIN n Juice]

10 minutes ago, sekrah said:

 

And no, Tom Jones would have almost zero % chance to make the modern pro tour if he were time-machined to the future to play with modern equipment, even with a year of practicing with it.  Athletically, human bodies have evolved very fast from those days. 

 

 

Why you gotta bring Tom Jones into this?

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by GHIN n Juice

[klbrown514]

9 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Warning - Silly thread:

 

If a modern golfer with modern equipment could go back in time what handicap would they need to be able to win the Open in the early years?

 

A 4 handicap should be able to lap the field a 2 rounds in the 70's would win easily. Given the radically different course conditions I figure you would have to be a solid 6 or 7 to be able to win.

The first Open only had 12 holes and the winner shot 55-59-60.  The whole course was 3,799 yards.  Anyone better than a 6 would make those guys look foolish with little effort.  Just my opinion and I think I am being generous.  

[raynorfan1]

Not sure where you draw the line - 1860 is pretty far back.

 

But the 1913 US Open was played on a course that is relatively unchanged from today aside from better agronomy. Basically the same length and layout. They played to 304 (12 over par) over 4 days in horrendous conditions. I would be very surprised if a scratch golfer today could put up the same number in the same conditions.

[farmer]

The lawn mower was invented in 1830 specifically to mow sporting fields, so the greens might not be a shaggy as assumed.  They didn't water, so everything could be hard as a rock, and I suspect the bunkers were horrific.  A competent 4 might have more trouble than it appears.

I don't know how Tom Jones got thrown into the mix, he's an 80 year old singer.  Of course he's not making the tour.

[sekrah]

10 minutes ago, GHIN n Juice said:

Why you gotta bring Tom Jones into this?

 

 

 

Lol oops.

 

[vallygolf]

1 hour ago, raynorfan1 said:

Not sure where you draw the line - 1860 is pretty far back.

 

But the 1913 US Open was played on a course that is relatively unchanged from today aside from better agronomy. Basically the same length and layout. They played to 304 (12 over par) over 4 days in horrendous conditions. I would be very surprised if a scratch golfer today could put up the same number in the same conditions.

Agronomy is everything here.  Average stimp when Eddie Stimpson invented the stimpmeter in 1937 was 2.5 feet.  Admittedly the USGA has since modified to the "speed stick", but in 1963 Stimpson measured the US open greens at 2.7 feet, and then finally 6.5 by the USGA in the mid 70's.  That is a big difference in playablility.  Also Ouimet Played a course at 6200 yards.  Brookline today plays closer to 7000.  Big difference.   Ouimet played par 5's at 430, 435, 520, and 470 yards respectively.  1913 oepn had 2 par 4's over 400 yards,  and 3 par fours 300 yards or less.  Scratch golfer playing to every pin on a 6200 yard course without penal greens.  I think it is very doable.  Weather factor goes to the better ball and equipment.

[2bGood]

One thing not mentioned is the added pressure the modern golfer would feel. I have to assume that Tom Morris Sr & Jr, wanted to win the Open's but it did not carry anywhere near the prestige as it does now. I mean how many people really cared about golf back then? So the old time gofers felt allot less pressure as the OPEN is not then what it is now.

Edited July 23, 2021 by 2bGood

[raynorfan1]

35 minutes ago, vallygolf said:

Agronomy is everything here.  Average stimp when Eddie Stimpson invented the stimpmeter in 1937 was 2.5 feet.  Admittedly the USGA has since modified to the "speed stick", but in 1963 Stimpson measured the US open greens at 2.7 feet, and then finally 6.5 by the USGA in the mid 70's.  That is a big difference in playablility.  Also Ouimet Played a course at 6200 yards.  Brookline today plays closer to 7000.  Big difference.   Ouimet played par 5's at 430, 435, 520, and 470 yards respectively.  1913 oepn had 2 par 4's over 400 yards,  and 3 par fours 300 yards or less.  Scratch golfer playing to every pin on a 6200 yard course without penal greens.  I think it is very doable.  Weather factor goes to the better ball and equipment.

 

The members play every day from effectively the same tees that Ouimet played (there are a couple of changes, but nothing really significant). The US Open card from 1913 was 6,245; the members' tees today are 6,357 with most of those yards added on the 16th hole (a par 3).

 

But the "par 4's" of 300 yards or less in 1913 (holes 2, 4, and 6) are still less than 300 yards (only one of them will be used as a Par 4 in 2022).

 

A round anywhere close to par in tournament conditions would be an excellent outcome for a scratch golfer...four of them in a row? Very unlikely.

[miamistomp]

3 hours ago, GHIN n Juice said:

Why you gotta bring Tom Jones into this?

 

 It's not unusual ....

 

 

 

 

[MrFlipper]

Wow. I've played prestwick as a 4 handicap around 2001. It was flipping tough. Young Tom would have kicked my a**, no doubt.

[Hawkeye77]

Guy hits one drive and the Morris’s and Willie Park would be taking turns beating on him - so no. 
 

“Ken ye say ‘graphite hard stepped’ now laddie?”