Tell me why I'm wrong about putter shafts - *updated, put a Whiteboard in a putter and it's not terrible...*

[Mike_C]

I have a playing partner who plays a C-Taper iron shaft in his putter......I have rolled a few with it, feels fine to me....   

 

What you are talking about is worth a whirl....

[PorkChopExpress]

It’s one of the easiest things to test out

Found shorter length putts have no bend and no feel. Made it harder to open and close the head. 
 

maybe it works better for straight back and through 

[Billfitz]

I'll start using an extra stiff putter shaft when my putter swing speed exceeds 60 miles per hour. 😀

[EDT501]

On 8/18/2021 at 9:20 AM, iknowbagu said:

I hope you go the Blueboard route.  I might literally pee my pants if I got hooked up with someone on the course with a premium driver shaft frankensteined into their putter.  Please post pics if you actually go through with it.

Made some most-likely poor decisions late, late last night and things are in motion.

[Stuart_G]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:17 AM, EDT501 said:

Yeah, but the forces involved are quite different. Takes a lot more engineering and exotic materials to keep something stable at 110+ mph than 3-5mph on a green.

 

No it actually doesn't but stability doesn't have anything to do with it.  "stability" is a term frequently misused with respect to golf shaft fittings.  Instabilities don't come from the shaft, they come from the swing.   The real difference all comes down to a different preference by the player for what they want for the feel of the shaft loading and unloading during the swing.

[mister2cool]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:11 AM, EDT501 said:

One of the latest trends is super stiff putter shafts which claim to offer more consistent performance on the greens by limiting deflection. Notably, the LAGP TPZ ($400) and BGT Stability Shaft ($250) seem to making a lot of noise, with Fujikura and others in the game as well. I’m not sure I buy that the putter shaft is really that important given the comparatively low speeds involved, but I am sure that I am an avid tinkerer and this seems like a fun experiment. However, I am not about to spend big $$$ on a putter shaft when the benefits are murky and what I have already works.

 

My question is this, if the benefits supposedly come from lower torque values and a stiff profile, why could one use an extremely stiff iron shaft to achieve the same at a much, much lower price. Am I missing something here?

 

In my random-shaft bag I have the following shafts I could cut down and use in a putter:

• Modus 3 125 TX
• DG X700
• C-Taper 130x

For basically the cost of a grip I could give it a whirl.

 

Even more out there… why not take a heavy, X flex wood shaft and tip the you know what out of it (using calipers to get the hosel diameter right) and slot that in? I’ve got a pair of og blueboad 103tx and could repurpose one for that. Kinda amused by the idea of having such a ridiculous putter shaft.

 

I am completely with you and I have been doing some non-scientific experiment of my own as well. 

First of all, I never bought into the notion that putter shaft even have to be extremely stiff. The impact force while putting is so small, there is really no chance for any steel shaft to flex enough to have an effect. I have always believed that if you have to hit your putt so hard that you are even concerned that putter shaft isn't stiff enough, hit your 8 iron like you should. 🤣

 

The weight of the shaft probably have more to do with the feel of the putter than anything else. I had a broken original HZRDUS Black 60g 6.0 sitting around so I thought I'd see if I could make that into a putter shaft and mess around with this Yes! Tracy II with interchangeable neck. The shaft was known to be stiff like a telephone pole and what broke was the softer butt section.  However with this shaft it is the worst feeling putter I have ever toughed. The shaft is so light that it feels like I have a wrecking ball in my hand, and even a grip with 50g counterweighted didn't help. Then there's a vibration.. it's almost like that it got amplified somehow. 

 

I still have 2 more neck for the Tracy II to play with.. and a whole bin of random\assorted shafts but have been too busy to mess with it more. Maybe this winter I'll get back to this.  I have an original Aldila NV 115g which could be interesting to try. 

[EDT501]

9 minutes ago, mister2cool said:

 

The weight of the shaft probably have more to do with the feel of the putter than anything else. I had a broken original HZRDUS Black 60g 6.0 sitting around so I thought I'd see if I could make that into a putter shaft and mess around with this Yes! Tracy II with interchangeable neck. The shaft was known to be stiff like a telephone pole and what broke was the softer butt section.  However with this shaft it is the worst feeling putter I have ever toughed. The shaft is so light that it feels like I have a wrecking ball in my hand, and even a grip with 50g counterweighted didn't help. Then there's a vibration.. it's almost like that it got amplified somehow. 

I fully expect my experiment to not work out, kind of how yours didn’t. But I’m going for it regardless - half the fun is the build and ridiculousness of it.

[iknowbagu]

56 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

Made some most-likely poor decisions late, late last night and things are in motion.

 

 

[GatorNate11]

I broke a putter shaft in a Circa 62, and thought of this same thing. I remembered I had a PX 6.0 laying around, so I stuck it in the putter as a temporary fix. I ended up loving it and just left it in there. It looks like a nightmare (I was classy enough to cut the label off, at least) but it works. Would I spend the money on another PX shaft for another putter? Maybe. Would I spend $250-$400 for a high speed putter shaft? Not unless I suffer head trauma. 

[Genericgolf]

Putter shafts all vary to provide options to players. LAgolfTPZ135 is prob the best non steel putter shaft out there 

[cristphoto]

After spending the $400 for the upgrade shaft do you then spend a bit more to get it Pured? You can't just go half-way. 😄

[mister2cool]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:20 AM, iknowbagu said:

I'm right there with you.  Interesting?  Absolutely.  Actual real world results?  Extremely skeptical.

 

I hope you go the Blueboard route.  I might literally pee my pants if I got hooked up with someone on the course with a premium driver shaft frankensteined into their putter.  Please post pics if you actually go through with it.

 

Funny you say that. It was literally one of the motivations to see how people would react when I got a handcrafted original HZRDUS Black in my putter... when lots of people still looking for those to put in their drivers. 🤣

[Ri_Redneck]

If you want a super stiff graphite shaft to try in a putter, here is an Aldila RIP Tour 115 S flex 9i shaft that is stiffer than any X iron shaft you will find. Cost is $19.99 and they apparently have 40+ in stock! Couldn't hurt to try!

 

BT

[MattM97]

Stiff steel iron shafts will work much better I think, X stiff wood shafts are not stout enough in the tip believe it or not. I have some graphite putter shafts and there is basically no opening in the tip depending on flex, it's just solid graphite. I can grab some pics when I get home. 

 

I'm curious about graphite putter shafts, I like putters so for me this isn't crazy but I'm also not paying retail on these either so I'm not dumping $400 on a putter shaft...yet. 

[tatertot]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:25 AM, ShortGolfer said:

It is about quality.  Folks are willing to pay that much to make sure they get the best and not screw around with what might work.

 

Yes, that shaft might work.  Or there may be a reason why it didn't work as intended and is now available for experiments.

Oh, I think it's about something else.

[tatertot]

3 hours ago, Genericgolf said:

Putter shafts all vary to provide options to players. LAgolfTPZ135 is prob the best non steel putter shaft out there 

Based on what?

 

Driver shafts obviously have a lot to do with the performance of a driver ...

 

How does a putter shaft influence a putt? Unless it's "feel", which is the manufacturer's way of saying "We don't know what it does, but if you give us an extra $400, we'll make it, give it to the Tour guys to use on TV, and sell it to you on Monday."

 

See Scotty Cameron and "German" Stainless Steel for example 1A.

[tatertot]

23 hours ago, PorkChopExpress said:

It’s one of the easiest things to test out

Found shorter length putts have no bend and no feel. Made it harder to open and close the head. 
 

maybe it works better for straight back and through 

As slow - and as little as a putter head moves on any putt, let alone a short one - how much do you think a putter shaft bends? What possible influence could this have on opening and closing the head? Has the world gone mad?

[Valtiel]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:18 AM, rsballer10 said:

 

Even cheaper, time spent in the short game area at most munis is completely free! Plus, how much shaft deflection is there REALLY in a 20' putt?

 

Quote

@tatertot As slow - and as little as a putter head moves on any putt, let alone a short one - how much do you think a putter shaft bends? What possible influence could this have on opening and closing the head? Has the world gone mad?

The way I understand it, it isn't a matter of deflection but one of torque. I believe on paper the idea is that if you can bring torque down to practically nothing, you reduce the amount the putter deflects when you miss the sweetspot since the shaft will resist twisting a tiny bit more, which in turn reduces the amount the ball will take off offline, similar to the impact that a high MOI putter has. All it would take is an improvement of inches to make a different to a pro. This is one of those minutia things that if it works on paper could potentially save a stroke or two over the course of a four day tournament, and therefore might help a pro depending on their putting style and putter. 

HOWEVER...

I think this really only matters on pristine tournament greens and/or to those that are extremely adept at green reading and starting the ball on their intended line. The moment you introduce any of the normal variabilities of a muni green, or even an above average green, and any of the variabilities that come from the average player's stroke, none of this matters anymore and it becomes purely a feel thing since the green conditions and inconsistent delivery will override the aforementioned minutia.
 

4 hours ago, EDT501 said:

Made some most-likely poor decisions late, late last night and things are in motion.

Hah, please keep us posted! I literally had the same thought with a BB 103x that was overtipped and therefore useless, but I scrapped it for extensions instead. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Valtiel

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

The way I understand it, it isn't a matter of deflection but one of torque. I believe on paper the idea is that if you can bring torque down to practically nothing, you reduce the amount the putter deflects when you miss the sweetspot since the shaft will resist twisting a tiny bit more, which in turn reduces the amount the ball will take off offline, similar to the impact that a high MOI putter has. All it would take is an improvement of inches to make a different to a pro. This is one of those minutia things that if it works on paper could potentially save a stroke or two over the course of a four day tournament, and therefore might help a pro depending on their putting style and putter. 

 

Well, that's the theory but considering how quickly the ball leaves the face, it's arguable on how significant the influence of the torque is going to be on the results.   And it wouldn't be all that hard to test and get some good solid data from those who have the robots to do the test (you have to take the human factor out of the equation to answer that question).  So if it was really true, you'd think there would be more hard data backing all the marketing.

 

 

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

HOWEVER...

I think this really only matters on pristine tournament greens and/or to those that are extremely adept at green reading and starting the ball on their intended line. The moment you introduce any of the normal variabilities of a muni green, or even an above average green, and any of the variabilities that come from the average player's stroke, none of this matters anymore and it becomes purely a feel thing since the green conditions and inconsistent delivery will override the aforementioned minutia.
 

 

Except those players are also the ones that are least likely to miss the sweet spot on the putter and need the additional "help"    So even for them, it's only going to make a difference on the rare miss and not on a regular basis.   But of course they aren't paying for their equipment so have nothing to loss in trying it.

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

33 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Well, that's the theory but considering how quickly the ball leaves the face, it's arguable on how significant the influence of the torque is going to be on the results.   And it wouldn't be all that hard to test and get some good solid data from those who have the robots to do the test (you have to take the human factor out of the equation to answer that question).  So if it was really true, you'd think there would be more hard data backing all the marketing.

 

 

 

Except those players are also the ones that are least likely to miss the sweet spot on the putter and need the additional "help"    So even for them, it's only going to make a difference on the rare miss and not on a regular basis.   But of course they aren't paying for their equipment so have nothing to loss in trying it.

 

 

 

True, however wouldn't this mean that high MOI putters are unnecessary too for the same reasons? I'm sure some pros like the additional alignment aids, but other than that the only real reason for these designs is mishit forgiveness. 

If any testing has been done, it could have simply revealed that the gains were small enough to only really be viable for the pros and the conditions they play in over several days of competition. Something like "On putts of 20ft, our shaft produces a tighter dispersion circle on slight mishits by X percentage, which we combine with data on a player's make percentage and proximity from this distance to conclude that said player could potentially make 0.20 - 0.30 more putts per round, adding up to an average of a full stroke gained over a four day tournament". Enough for any pro to give it a try since its free, but not really compelling to the weekend golfer. 

Who knows, maybe they just gave one to DJ and told him "Kevin Na uses this and he makes tons of putts". 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Valtiel

[Stuart_G]

9 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

True, however wouldn't this mean that high MOI putters are unnecessary too for the same reasons?

 

Actually no.  For the very short timed impact, MOI becomes the dominant factor in what happens for an off-center impact.   The effect of the MOI is immediate or instantaneous while the effect from the shaft torque is delayed since it takes time for the elastic forces to build up.

 

Although I suspedect that most amateurs (mostly mid-high cap'ers) will get as much, if not more benefit from the higher MOI design pre-impact then at impact.  It can still act a little as a "stabalizer" for the face direction during the swing.

 

 

 

Quote

Who knows, maybe they just gave one to DJ and told him "Kevin Na uses this and he makes tons of putts". 

 

Well it's true that anything that can effect the players confidence has the potential to effect the results, regardless of the level of play.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Stuart_G

[ckay]

I’ve spent quite a bit of time with various Stability Tour builds. Four to be exact.  Three high MOI heads and a blade. The shaft is exactly as marketed. It is extremely stiff. After a year of experimenting to find the right combo, I’ve come to the conclusion that it wasn’t for me. What you gained in stability, you gave up a tremendous amount of feel. 
 

I went back to the KBS shaft and noticed how soft it was after playing the Stability. While I loved having the feel back I wasn’t too keen on the flex any longer. Some have commented that you don’t create enough of an impact where it should matter but I can tell you that the flex is definitely there in the stroke. 
 

I went down the LAGP route and found that it is the best graphite putter shaft on the market IMO. The stiffness is there, but the feel is not lost. I am 100% satisfied with it. 
 

Rewind it a couple of years ago when the Stability first hit the market, I laughed at the idea of a $250 putter shaft. Curiosity got the better of me over time and I’ve come to the conclusion that there is merit to the technology. It is just a matter of whether one wants to pay the price tag to see for themselves. 
 

Personally, I have always loved putters and putting and not too much of a ho when it comes to other areas of golf equipment such as clothing, headcovers, or shoes so it was a reasonable area for me to tinker and spend some money doing so.
 

 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Been following these type of threads for a few years.  This is what I have read:

 

-Yes, the stiff iron shafts can and do work for putter shafts.

 

-Yes, the expensive graphite shafts work for those that like/need/want it.

 

-Super stiff graphite driver shaft experiments are few and far between.  Most report bad results.

 

Personally, I just want a stiffer double bend for mallets, and I don’t want the stroke lab ugliness in my bag.

 

Good luck with the experiments!

[rsballer10]

15 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

The way I understand it, it isn't a matter of deflection but one of torque. I believe on paper the idea is that if you can bring torque down to practically nothing, you reduce the amount the putter deflects when you miss the sweetspot since the shaft will resist twisting a tiny bit more, which in turn reduces the amount the ball will take off offline, similar to the impact that a high MOI putter has. All it would take is an improvement of inches to make a different to a pro. This is one of those minutia things that if it works on paper could potentially save a stroke or two over the course of a four day tournament, and therefore might help a pro depending on their putting style and putter. 

HOWEVER...

I think this really only matters on pristine tournament greens and/or to those that are extremely adept at green reading and starting the ball on their intended line. The moment you introduce any of the normal variabilities of a muni green, or even an above average green, and any of the variabilities that come from the average player's stroke, none of this matters anymore and it becomes purely a feel thing since the green conditions and inconsistent delivery will override the aforementioned minutia.
 

Hah, please keep us posted! I literally had the same thought with a BB 103x that was overtipped and therefore useless, but I scrapped it for extensions instead. 

I definitely agree with what you're saying - up to the point I go out this weekend and lip out a couple of 4 footers. Then it will definitely because of the torque rating on my steel putter shaft!!!

 

I am on the other spectrum of taste - I prefer the YSC putter shaft because of the "feel".

 

Last point - confidence is probably the most important metric (and also can't be measured). If you think it will help, it will help.

[PixlPutterman]

Ctaper works great....

 

....as do old broken hybrid shafts

 

 

[driveandputtmachine]

When I went through my merry go round of trying graphite iron shafts I had a few wedge shafts left over.  I tried the steel fiber 125 and Recoil 125 (both in X flex that I tried in a plumbers neck putter I had.  Unfortunately for some reason now I cannot aim a plumbers neck putter anymore so I putted worse, but obviously not the shaft's fault.  I did my best to keep the weight the same, but the problem is the UST shaft is really tip heavy as the carbon top of the shaft is rather thin.  So the stiff shafts felt different.

 

The problem for me is that I aim a double bend or a short slant putter correct more often than not.  So for the short slant that is hosel into the shaft you have to match up correctly, and the wall thickness can make a difference. All of my putters previously had the UST frequency filter shafts.   For double bend, as of my last looking there is really nothing to try.

 

I did find a used callaway at a local pga tour store with a stability in it, and it is in the bacg still as a test.  WHo am I kidding the 39" V line tank with a CB grip and the stability shaft has been in testing for 2 months now and has not even come close to leaving the bag.   The problem is, I never tried this putter without the stability shaft to know if it has helped at all.

Edited August 20, 2021 by driveandputtmachine

[ReidThompson]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:11 AM, EDT501 said:

One of the latest trends is super stiff putter shafts which claim to offer more consistent performance on the greens by limiting deflection. Notably, the LAGP TPZ ($400) and BGT Stability Shaft ($250) seem to making a lot of noise, with Fujikura and others in the game as well. I’m not sure I buy that the putter shaft is really that important given the comparatively low speeds involved, but I am sure that I am an avid tinkerer and this seems like a fun experiment. However, I am not about to spend big $$$ on a putter shaft when the benefits are murky and what I have already works.

 

My question is this, if the benefits supposedly come from lower torque values and a stiff profile, why could one use an extremely stiff iron shaft to achieve the same at a much, much lower price. Am I missing something here?

 

In my random-shaft bag I have the following shafts I could cut down and use in a putter:

• Modus 3 125 TX
• DG X700
• C-Taper 130x

For basically the cost of a grip I could give it a whirl.

 

Even more out there… why not take a heavy, X flex wood shaft and tip the you know what out of it (using calipers to get the hosel diameter right) and slot that in? I’ve got a pair of og blueboad 103tx and could repurpose one for that. Kinda amused by the idea of having such a ridiculous putter shaft.

Yes.  Please do the blueboard experiment.  

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Actually no.  For the very short timed impact, MOI becomes the dominant factor in what happens for an off-center impact.   The effect of the MOI is immediate or instantaneous while the effect from the shaft torque is delayed since it takes time for the elastic forces to build up.

 

Although I suspedect that most amateurs (mostly mid-high cap'ers) will get as much, if not more benefit from the higher MOI design pre-impact then at impact.  It can still act a little as a "stabalizer" for the face direction during the swing.

 

 

 

 

Well it's true that anything that can effect the players confidence has the potential to effect the results, regardless of the level of play.

 

Gotcha. I agree regarding the average player benefitting from high MOI for the reasons you mentioned, I was just using the logic that if the pro rarely mishits putts and therefore doesn't really need the "help", then I feel like high MOI putters wouldn't be as popular on tour. 

[Ri_Redneck]

21 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

The way I understand it, it isn't a matter of deflection but one of torque. I believe on paper the idea is that if you can bring torque down to practically nothing, you reduce the amount the putter deflects when you miss the sweetspot since the shaft will resist twisting a tiny bit more, which in turn reduces the amount the ball will take off offline, similar to the impact that a high MOI putter has. All it would take is an improvement of inches to make a different to a pro. This is one of those minutia things that if it works on paper could potentially save a stroke or two over the course of a four day tournament, and therefore might help a pro depending on their putting style and putter. 

HOWEVER...

I think this really only matters on pristine tournament greens and/or to those that are extremely adept at green reading and starting the ball on their intended line. The moment you introduce any of the normal variabilities of a muni green, or even an above average green, and any of the variabilities that come from the average player's stroke, none of this matters anymore and it becomes purely a feel thing since the green conditions and inconsistent delivery will override the aforementioned minutia.
 

Hah, please keep us posted! I literally had the same thought with a BB 103x that was overtipped and therefore useless, but I scrapped it for extensions instead. 

The only time I have seen a putter shaft twist is when it wrapped around a tree.

 

BT

[EDT501]

32 minutes ago, ReidThompson said:

Yes.  Please do the blueboard experiment.  

I decided against the blueboard. Since I’m taking so much off the tip and butt, a mid-kick shaft seemed out of place given the context of the experiment…

 

So I’m using a whiteboard instead!